USFSA Governing Council [Archive]

Debbie S

04-07-2009, 04:05 PM

Well, I'm not a pairs skater so I can't comment on those proposals - Rob, NoVA, flo...? :)

I know plenty of people here will be happy that (assuming it passes) IJS will be used for Gold and Masters events at Sectionals. I think it's a good idea.

I had already read through the proposed MIF changes, so no surprises there. They make sense to me. But I'm not so sure I like the proposed January '10 implementation date. All other test changes have taken effect in Sept, which seems right b/c the Regionals qual (test) process for that year is over. Plus, there's so much else going on in January, like Nats, and then next year is an Oly year - I don't know if it's the best time to implement major testing/judging changes.

(not to mention it decreases the chance of my ever passing Int MIF - I'm not sure I see loops and twizzles in my future, and it's highly unlikely I would even be able to pass Gold before Jan, much less Int, oh well....:giveup:)

flo

04-07-2009, 04:39 PM

They are still wrong.
There needs to be an option for those passing a juvenile pair test before the pair test was changed to skate silver. It STILL says that for silver you can have no higher than the pre-juv test or the standard preliminary test which does not even exist. Also, under the gold, it needs to be clear that one can only skate down 1 fs level. It says intermediate free or higher. The higher is incorrect.

NoVa Sk8r

04-07-2009, 05:49 PM

I was poring over the document last night. I like most of the proposed changes. And hey, gold/master pair teams can now do throw triple jumps. Yeah, we'll get right on that! :lol:
3-jump combos are no longer allowed (to be in line with standard-track pairs?). This will also encourage some teams to do harder jumps. Doing a flip-loop-loop is worth 1.5 (1.65 in the bonus time), whereas, say, an axel-loop is 1.3 (1.43 in bonus).
It's also nice that the pair combo spin requirements have been changed from a minimum of 5 revs on each foot to just a minimum of 6 revs (with 1 change of foot and position).
I'm not sure why carry lifts are not allowed.

I am so glad that IJS might be coming soon to a sectionals near you. It's qualifying under one system (6.0) then competing under another. Yes, IJS judging costs more (maybe there will be a surcharge now for gold and higher levels?), but there are also proposals that may save clubs money when it comes to getting officials (lowering the requirements for adult sectional championship referees and accountants).

I am also impressed with the items that deal with lowering the hurdles to getting a judging appointment.

I personally like the Jan. 1 moves deadline. That gives me more time to pass intermediate moves. :!: It will also give *coaches* more time to learn and perfect the loops, twizzles, etc. Most of the younger coaches have never done these before!

Debbie S

04-07-2009, 11:02 PM

I personally like the Jan. 1 moves deadline. That gives me more time to pass intermediate moves. :!: It will also give *coaches* more time to learn and perfect the loops, twizzles, etc. Most of the younger coaches have never done these before!In the MIF proposal last year, there was a whole year planned for training before the changes went into effect the following Sept. Now they want to shorten the training process by 8 months. I don't think that's a good idea - as you said, both coaches AND judges need time to learn about the new moves and what's expected. I think the changes should go into effect in Sept of '10 - that will give you (and me, lol) even more time to pass Int MIF. :)

jazzpants

04-07-2009, 11:49 PM

In the MIF proposal last year, there was a whole year planned for training before the changes went into effect the following Sept. Now they want to shorten the training process by 8 months. I don't think that's a good idea - as you said, both coaches AND judges need time to learn about the new moves and what's expected. I think the changes should go into effect in Sept of '10 - that will give you (and me, lol) even more time to pass Int MIF. :)
Meh... I don't see myself passing my next moves tests before Jan 2010 (or even Sept 2010) for that matter, so meh, do whatever you want. I'm preparing according to the new rules! :P :lol:

BTW: My crazy NYC coach last Dec. started me on twizzles! (Just the FI twizzles though.) I think he's NUTS but then again, I thought the same last year when he threw in this FO-BI bracket exercise the year before that!!! :twisted: Now, I'm playing around with the Gold brackets just to see if I could do it. (Nope! Not yet!!! :frus: )

vesperholly

04-08-2009, 12:40 AM

skaternum

04-08-2009, 06:45 AM

I have a problem with the Silver & Gold pairs test requirements. Under the propoased pair rules, if you passed the Juvenile freeskating test back in the dark ages before there even was a Pre-juvenile, you are forced into Gold pairs -- even though that very same test allows you to skate Silver as a single. ?? Why is there no consideration for the Oct. 1994 date in the Pairs test requirements?

ETA: I also agree that rolling out the Moves changes in January is too short a time period.

Otherwise, I like what the Adult Committee has proposed. Good work!

flo

04-08-2009, 08:05 AM

Skaternum - EXACTLY!!!! I sent a spreadsheet to the adult committee, the pairs chair and the Adult chair comparing all the current and former pair test requirements. This clearly illustrated the inequity between the original preliminary pairs (now juvenile), the current juvenile test and the adult tests. In addition the requirements continue to list the preliminary pairs test as a qualification, and this test has been removed, once again, and those skaters are now prejuv. pairs. However the original preliminary pairs testers are still juvenile!!!!!!8O8O8O8O

NoVa Sk8r

04-08-2009, 09:59 AM

Debbie S

04-08-2009, 01:50 PM

I thought you had meant September of this year! 8OOh no, lol! That's what happens when I try to post in a hurry. :lol:

flo

04-08-2009, 03:15 PM

Also the wording in the exception for gold pairs is incorrect. If the point is to allow skaters with gold pair tests to skate one level lower than their free level, it should read Intermediate, not intermediate or higher, as higher would be two levels. Novice should be in masters pairs, not gold.

Exception: Teams in which at least one member has passed the adult gold pairs test or the standard juvenile pairs test may choose to participate in an adult gold pairs event even if one or both members of the team have passed a standard free skate test at the intermediate level or higher.
Committee Vote: Adult Committee: 24 yes, 0 no, 10 abstain; Pairs Committee: 27 yes, 0 no, 3 abstain
Rationale: This proposal further clarifies the test requirements for adult gold pairs implemented for 2008-09 and will allow skaters to compete in pairs one level lower than their free skate level if they have completed a pairs test. As it was published this was not the case in 2008-09.

vesperholly

04-08-2009, 04:26 PM

After seeing what purports to be a passing Senior MIF these days, maybe they should implement the more difficult test earlier. Or require some judges to take vision tests. :roll:

fractals

04-08-2009, 11:24 PM

For the competitive pairs test requirements, they still have a wording issue regarding the first partner and the second partner. If I have passed the Intermediate Pairs test, according to the proposed wording I can be the second partner and compete in Adult Gold Pairs as long as my partner's highest test is Juvenile Pairs, because I meet the requirement of having passed not more than one level lower than my partner (who would be the first partner in this case). I'm not saying that I should be allowed to compete in Adult Gold Pairs using this interpretation of the rules, and I agree that the rules should not be interpreted in this way, but currently as the proposal is written it is possible for someone to interpret the rules in this way because of the poor wording.

I agree with those who think that the new MIF should be implemented in Sept 2010 rather than Jan 2010- they should give coaches at least a year to learn how to teach the new moves, and judges the same amount of time to learn what a passing demonstration of those moves would be.

LWalsh

04-09-2009, 07:57 AM

I agree with those who think that the new MIF should be implemented in Sept 2010 rather than Jan 2010- they should give coaches at least a year to learn how to teach the new moves, and judges the same amount of time to learn what a passing demonstration of those moves would be.

But the coaches have been exposed to these moves at last years PSA seminars and certainly this years annual meeting. I attended one at Hackensack last August where they went over the new moves and had kids demonstrate them. Also the videos have been up on the USFSA website for over six months. Most of these moves were supposed to pass last year but they got sent back to the committee for tweaking. I don't think there's any thought that they won't pass this time so coaches should already be learning these now.

There are some important reasons why they are being changed and the change can't wait. Some of our current moves are no longer relevant to IJS' changing standards (bracket-3-bracket) and some of the moves are being condensed (fwd inside 3s/quick rocker choctaw, back 3s) to help clubs better afford rising ice costs during test sessions. From a club standpoint it will cut out a lot of time and save $$$. I know our test sessions hardly ever break even.

I don't know what's being done to train the judges though...that's a different issue.

flo

04-09-2009, 08:16 AM

Fractals - I believe you would be the first partner in masters. The first partner is ths partner with the qualifying tests for that level. If you take a look at the levels given for the second level, they are below the Juvenile pair test. The wording is confusing.

Debbie S

04-09-2009, 09:29 AM

But the coaches have been exposed to these moves at last years PSA seminars and certainly this years annual meeting. I attended one at Hackensack last August where they went over the new moves and had kids demonstrate them. Also the videos have been up on the USFSA website for over six months. Most of these moves were supposed to pass last year but they got sent back to the committee for tweaking. But a lot of the moves proposed last year got changed. I remember there was some counter and twizzle move (and the same one with the rockers?) that got taken off, and some others. I saw the proposed tests for last year and the ones for this year look very different to me. So even if coaches saw last year's introductions, they still need to learn this year's.

As for the videos, isn't there a disclaimer on the website that they are not necessarily done to passing standard?

Also consider that many coaches don't attend the PSA annual meeting b/c of logistics, expense, and other issues. Plus, while a lot of coaches have seen the videos on the website, many are in a wait-and-see mode, since the moves haven't passed yet. The big question among all the coaches is what will be passing standard. Most of them did twizzles and loops as kids, but it's hard to know how to prepare their students for testing them until they know what's expected for each move and level.

As I understand it, most local PSA seminars feature a local judge or two talking about passing standards, comp judging, new rules, etc. The judges are going to have to be trained on the moves and know what they're doing before the coaches will, and this all takes time.

phoenix

04-09-2009, 10:27 AM

But a lot of the moves proposed last year got changed. I remember there was some counter and twizzle move (and the same one with the rockers?) that got taken off, and some others. I saw the proposed tests for last year and the ones for this year look very different to me. So even if coaches saw last year's introductions, they still need to learn this year's.

Also consider that many coaches don't attend the PSA annual meeting b/c of logistics, expense, and other issues. Plus, while a lot of coaches have seen the videos on the website, many are in a wait-and-see mode, since the moves haven't passed yet. The big question among all the coaches is what will be passing standard. Most of them did twizzles and loops as kids, but it's hard to know how to prepare their students for testing them until they know what's expected for each move and level.

As I understand it, most local PSA seminars feature a local judge or two talking about passing standards, comp judging, new rules, etc. The judges are going to have to be trained on the moves and know what they're doing before the coaches will, and this all takes time.

ITA, not to mention that we won't even see them spelled out in rulebook form until October or so.....

sk8lady

04-09-2009, 11:12 AM

The proposed MIF demonstrated at last year's PSA conference were, as I recall, pretty much being shown as if they were a done deal and we should all start teaching them--then they didn't pass! So I wouldn't dare start teaching the current proposals--or working on them myself--until they've actually been voted on. Since I can't make it to the conference this year it will probably be September--the nationwide seminar closest to me (500 miles away) before I can see them demonstrated properly. That makes it tough to hustle along and have them testable by January of 2010!

icedancer2

04-09-2009, 11:59 AM

Also consider that many coaches don't attend the PSA annual meeting b/c of logistics, expense, and other issues. Plus, while a lot of coaches have seen the videos on the website, many are in a wait-and-see mode, since the moves haven't passed yet. The big question among all the coaches is what will be passing standard. Most of them did twizzles and loops as kids, but it's hard to know how to prepare their students for testing them until they know what's expected for each move and level.

I wouldn't say "most of the coaches" - at least the newer younger coaches - a lot of them never did figures and I'm not sure ANYONE learned twizzles back in the day... anyone? Were twizzles ever a standard sort of move?

I hope they wait until September 2010 for the Moves to change for the tests - as a judge I think we will need at least that long to get everyone on board.

daisies

04-09-2009, 01:23 PM

ITA, not to mention that we won't even see them spelled out in rulebook form until October or so.....

They will be in rulebook form when the Combined Report of Action comes out.

vesperholly

04-09-2009, 01:52 PM

But the coaches have been exposed to these moves at last years PSA seminars and certainly this years annual meeting.
How many coaches attend those things? Not everyone can afford to travel to the PSA annual meeting (maybe one coach from my club goes) and seminars don't always come to every area in a timely manner.

TreSk8sAZ

04-09-2009, 02:48 PM

But the coaches have been exposed to these moves at last years PSA seminars and certainly this years annual meeting. I attended one at Hackensack last August where they went over the new moves and had kids demonstrate them. Also the videos have been up on the USFSA website for over six months. Most of these moves were supposed to pass last year but they got sent back to the committee for tweaking. I don't think there's any thought that they won't pass this time so coaches should already be learning these now.

Maybe some coaches weere introduced to last year's versions. However, as people have pointed out, they have completely changed in many cases. Also, kids demonstrating them doesn't equate to coaches being able to TEACH them. Coaches will need to learn the proper passing standard, the theory behind all of the moves, what the judges are looking for, the mechanics, etc. This doesn't all come from watching a couple of people demonstrate the moves whether on video or in person. Then you add the judges needing to be trained and the simple logistics or changing the test sheets, etc. None of this happens quickly or easily.

Further, coaches right now are finishing programs and such for the summer season. Early season comps are just around the corner for the younger set, and adult nationals are coming up for the older set. When are they supposed to be learning new moves that may or may not come to pass? Also, there are hundreds of skaters who will need to/want to take tests before any date of changing the moves. That means they need to be taking the tests that are currently on the books, which is what coaches are focused on teaching.

phoenix

04-10-2009, 11:20 AM

LWalsh

04-10-2009, 02:13 PM

I understand .... The moves that were introduced at last year's annual conference did in fact fail at GC But later in the year once the moves were tweaked and the new proposal was written they were being taught again at the state level PSA workshops later in the year. It's the assumption now that they will be passing as is. ITA that not everyone can get to the annual conference (though I think if you are really coaching as a career full time you ought to go at least every few years but that's JMHO) but there are also region and statewide seminars everyone ought to be able to attend if they want to be in the business of coaching. If you were an accountant and the tax law changed would that be an excuse not to learn the new law?

Some of the moves are just combining what's already there and moving things around. The young coaches who never did figures might have a hard time with loops but loops were only on the 3rd (juv) figure test so they weren't all that high up in the test track even back then. The tough loops were the paragraph and serpentine versions. Thank goodness no one is asking us to do that! ...or even trace them. Twizzles have always been a part of dance and they are frequently part of most kid's footwork from Juv on up. The forward twizzles are only 1 1/2 turns. I see many of the kids use them as part of stroking warmups.

I guess my point is that other than the loops & twizzles which will be tough for some, the changes aren't all that earth shattering and most of them are for higher level skaters. Chances are that a coach experienced enough to teach senior moves is old enough to have also done figures (for the most part), and probably attends seminars anyway. Right now the coaches get updates from the PSA on the changing IJS rules almost weekly:roll: They already have to stay on top of a ton of stuff.

I for one am glad to see the moves get harder and I think the changes address at least most of the problems with the current moves. Not to mention that it's just too easy to get a gold medal now.

The real problem with timing will probably be judging. Do they require judges to go to judges school when rules change? I know nothing about that side of things.

LW

flo

04-10-2009, 06:07 PM

for pair skaters:

I contacted Lexi about the concerns in the pair levels. She assured me that this issue was addressed in detail and it was determined that I was the only one to which it applied. I believe there are 4 pairs in this year's gold event alone that are in this situation.

Lexi would like to know how many pairs to which this may apply. Please let me or Lexi know if you wish to be considered in this group.
Thanks

vesperholly

04-10-2009, 08:15 PM

I was told yesterday that the Jan 2010 date is for pre-pre through Intermediate, and novice through senior would be effective Sept. 2010. Is this true? That would be helpful, at least the higher levels get longer to get through the old/train coaches/judges, etc.
That could be confusing to implement, but I think it's smarter than all or nothing and a good compromise. The lower level changes aren't nearly as drastic.

Thin-Ice

04-13-2009, 01:53 AM

The real problem with timing will probably be judging. Do they require judges to go to judges school when rules change? I know nothing about that side of things.

Rules change every year and judges are not REQUIRED to go to judges school every year. But judges are STRONGLY encouraged to go to schools whenever possible. I'm sure if this passes, this topic will be covered in the on-going judges schools, most of which happen during the summer so everyone can prepare for the upcoming competitive season.

Stormy

04-13-2009, 05:58 AM

That could be confusing to implement, but I think it's smarter than all or nothing and a good compromise. The lower level changes aren't nearly as drastic.

The double implementation dates aren't correct. That won't be happening. It's a January 2010 implemtation for all moves. So in the middle of the skating season, in December you'd be testing under one set of moves and the next month, the new moves. I can see this being a nightmare for test chairs.

No one's spoken to the re-districting at all? Not sure how I missed it at first, but that's a biggie too. I don't personally like it and thought 12/4 made more sense. I see how it evens out membership numbers arcoss the country, but the Western section would be ginormous and you'd have some skaters basically traveling halfway across the country for their Sectionals. And New England loses a lot in this as well.

Debbie S

04-13-2009, 08:56 AM

No one's spoken to the re-districting at all? Yeah, I think it's a lousy idea. The first thing I noticed is that it splits MD and VA into separate regions, and most coaches in the DC area (whether they are in MD or VA) have students in both states. My guess is that Wash FSC membership is fairly evenly split between MD and VA residents. You'd have coaches traveling to 2 different Regionals, that might end up being on the same weekend. And I think the divisions generally don't make sense.

I didn't think of this, but someone pointed out to me that given that this is being introduced by an Ohio club (Winterhurst), it's likely an attempt to increase Ohio skaters' chances to make JN or Sectionals - it basically gets rid of the states (namely Michigan) that were Ohio skaters' big rivals for the slots at those comps (and puts CO in the Pacific section, so it removes some of the comp for Nats spots).

blue111moon

04-13-2009, 10:17 AM

There's also a proposal to create new judges' certification levels, to encourage more people to go into judging by allowing them to judge at non-qual competitions right away instead of slogging through years of test judging only. But there's no description of what the level entails and if it's for only new judges just coming in or if the test judges will be grandfathered in (since most of them are already judging at non-quals because there aren't enough comp judges now to go around).

The redistricting is a terrible plan, especially since the numbers used to form it are already almost two years old and they change annually anyway. And the concept of reshuffling the regions and sections every fours years is just crazy.

TreSk8sAZ

04-13-2009, 12:54 PM

The redistricting is ridiculous and I don't see how it will ever pass. 22 states in the Western section? Sorry, but that's just not possible. Iowa and Minnesota traveling to Arizona or Cali (or the other way around) for sectionals? There is no reason for that. Yes, I can see adding a couple of states to the Pac Coasts, but only those that border states that are already in the section. With Cali, Arizona and Alaska alone there is a large number of skaters and it is already a very difficult section to get out of. That doesn't even include the other states that routinely send skates to the section. Add Colorado to that mix and you get another huge load of skaters. It would be completely overwhelming.

The other two sections seem false as far as division and just don't make sense. But they have 16-ish states, not the 22 that the Western Section would have. Why wouldn't Iowa and Minnesota skate against Illinois and Wisconsin rather than Arizona and Cali?

I also agree that redistricting proposals every 4 years are not feasible. They take a lot of work and research to do it correctly, and numbers fluctuate so much AFTER the olympics it would produce a false result.

LWalsh

04-14-2009, 09:16 PM

The double implementation dates aren't correct. That won't be happening. It's a January 2010 implemtation for all moves. So in the middle of the skating season, in December you'd be testing under one set of moves and the next month, the new moves. I can see this being a nightmare for test chairs..

On the USFS site they have a new schedule for double implementation dates. They also moved some of the moves around. They took the moves that are going to require coaches time to learn and put them as a Sept 2010 date and the easy changes will go through Sept 2009 (that is if they pass!). It will still be a nightmare for test chairs.

LW

vesperholly

04-14-2009, 11:36 PM

That redistricting plan is ridiculous! 8O OTOH, I can't wait to listen to the discussion on it. And I thought 12/4 was contentious.

As for straight membership numbers, what are the details on them? Maybe there are 4,800 skaters in New York, but how many of those are LTS or non-competitive? The state numbers are astonishing, too — 47 members in Mississippi. Wow.

Nitpicking, but I dislike the name changes. The "North" region? The "Metropolitan" region? How blah.

Debbie S

04-15-2009, 10:13 AM

Maybe there are 4,800 skaters in New York, but how many of those are LTS or non-competitive? Exactly. They need to look at how many skaters from each state competed at Regionals, and also look at how many skaters from each state advanced to their Sectionals, and how many skaters from each state and current Region qualified for Nationals, to get an idea of the competitiveness in each state. There might only be a couple hundred members in a state, but if there is a major elite training center there whose skaters take up all their region's spots at Sectionals, and then Nationals, it makes no sense to combine them with another highly competitive state (being simplistic with the numbers here).

Stormy

04-15-2009, 11:40 AM

Quick threadjack, but if anyone wants to share a room at GC, please PM me. With my recent job layoff, GC coming right after ANs, owing taxes and my club not subsidizing some of my trip like I thought they would, I am in a bit of a financial pickle and sharing a room with someone would be a huge help to me. As some on this board can attest to, I am an excellent roomie, don't stay up late and don't snore. :)

Skittl1321

04-15-2009, 12:40 PM

We don't have a lot of adult synchro skaters here- but what do people think about those changes? It seems to me "adult" is soon to mean "former child skater" with these changes, especially changing the age restriction and elements at the same time. I think it would be very very difficult for an adult start skater to skate on an adult synchro team with the changes they hope to implement, they'd have to stay in open adult.

Why can't I find the redistricting plan? "metropolitian" region seems a bit condescending to other areas, IMO.

flo

04-15-2009, 12:43 PM

From skittles:
It seems to me "adult" is soon to mean "former child skater"

As it is in freestyle and pairs.

Clarice

04-15-2009, 12:49 PM

From skittles:
It seems to me "adult" is soon to mean "former child skater"

As it is in freestyle and pairs.

And that would be okay with me, as long as there is still a place for those of us who started as adults to compete against others of our own kind.

vesperholly

04-15-2009, 01:03 PM

Why can't I find the redistricting plan? "metropolitian" region seems a bit condescending to other areas, IMO.
The redistricting plan is under the Exhibits entry, not ROA.

Skittl1321

04-15-2009, 01:03 PM

As it is in freestyle and pairs.
Maybe USFS has seen that they've had some success in attracting adult skaters and is now focusing on retention? And I see it going the same way with fs and pairs, but some of the synchro rationales include statements like "skaters are familiar with these moves because they skated collegiate" urgh...

The redistricting plan is under the Exhibits entry, not ROA.

Well, that would explain why I didn't find it. Now that I've read it, I have to think that anyone who thinks I currently live in a western state and not a midwestern one is crazy. Iowa is firmly midwest. Maybe if they changed the name to "right, middle, left" but even still Iowa is pretty firmly middle. If it's supposed to be mildly geographic, it's insane. The cost incurred to travel by those in the "western" section is going to be huge compared to those in the other two, which are teeny geographic size-wise.

I don't like the division at all. I think it has the classic issue of senate vs house- population based, or state based. 11 states in the "southern region"? But only 2 in others? I do have to agree that it seems to be designed to make it more "fair" to those with busy regionals, but it of course will have the bias of those who designed it.

flo

04-15-2009, 01:24 PM

"And that would be okay with me, as long as there is still a place for those of us who started as adults to compete against others of our own kind."

I think we're all ok with that, as the original goal of AN was to provide a place for adult and returning skaters. Unfortunately the waves of recent changes do not encourage adult skaters to compete. The freestyle and pairs events are turning into a place not to compete against your own kind. I started to see this in silver fs, a level many returning skaters (of course who did not test, or not test high) choose to re-enter competitions and test the waters. They win, test and move up, and next year another handful take their place. This was definitely the case when I competed in silver and it's very frustrating. It would be interesting to look at the fs medalists in bronze, silver and gold over the past 15 years and see the change from adult to returning skaters.

I do expect to compete against returning skaters in the masters events, which I've done in pairs, but not in the adult events. I'm not opposed to those older skaters who skated as a kid and really make an effort to come back and into the appropriate level, but a currently or recently active novice level fs skater has no business in an adult event.

blue111moon

04-15-2009, 01:40 PM

Maybe USFS has seen that they've had some success in attracting adult skaters and is now focusing on retention? And I see it going the same way with fs and pairs, but some of the synchro rationales include statements like "skaters are familiar with these moves because they skated collegiate" urgh....

Since the proposals come from/through the Adult Skating Committee, I'd be curious to know the background of the members. There was a time - way back in the Dark Ages - when the majority of the members were adults who'd started skating after the age of age of 25. I suspect that is no long the case.

skaternum

04-16-2009, 08:20 AM

Unfortunately the waves of recent changes do not encourage adult skaters to compete. The freestyle and pairs events are turning into a place not to compete against your own kind. I started to see this in silver fs, a level many returning skaters (of course who did not test, or not test high) choose to re-enter competitions and test the waters. They win, test and move up, and next year another handful take their place. This was definitely the case when I competed in silver and it's very frustrating. It would be interesting to look at the fs medalists in bronze, silver and gold over the past 15 years and see the change from adult to returning skaters.
I totally agree. Anecdotally, I see fewer and fewer "adult onset" skaters start competing than I used to -- at least where I am. The ones that do are the ones who are already hooked. I'm not seeing much fresh blood in that category. I think the Moves are partly responsible, but I think having to compete against someone who skated as a kid is discouraging too.

We've had variations on this discussion here before, and quite a few posters assume that when we say things like this, we're against skaters who've "aged up" into the adult categories. That's not true, but I'm all about making sure the environment is as encouraging to adult onset skaters as it is to returning or aging up skaters. I think USFSA rightfully realized a few years ago that they needed to encourage returning skaters, in order to stay financially viable, so they really went all out -- which is great. Unfortunately, they seem to have swung a little too far in that direction, in my opinion.

MusicSkateFan

04-16-2009, 09:27 AM

Well I have not Chimed in in a long time but what the hell.

I think there is two sides to the Adults who learned as Adults and "Returning Skaters"

You have to look at the "Watering Down" of Gold freestyle and the addition of Masters Int/Novice too. I think they are trying to get skaters to move up into correct levels.

Some "returning" skaters may hang out at silver just to "win" and it does make it hard for those who learned as adults. I think its a good challenge to try to get better than the "returning" skaters so it makes me work harder.

Adults have many issues too...injuries, jobs, families that sometimes hinder our abilities to move up as fast as some would want....I think you just have to go in to every event and do the best that YOU can for that moment....Sure it's great to win...I think Adults should be happy just to be skating!

I know it sounds kind of sappy but oh well.
I don't think the Adult system can ever be perfectly fair...But at least we have one!

I do think the constant changes are taking a toll on the adult community. Could some people just be giving up because the rules keep changing every year?

Predictions:
Someone does a 1A,2t combo or 1A,1/2l 2s sequence in gold freestyle this year at Adult Nats and Next year all Axel, double combo or sequences are banned from gold tee hee

Skate@Delaware

04-16-2009, 09:43 AM

Adults have many issues too...injuries, jobs, families that sometimes hinder our abilities to move up as fast as some would want....I think you just have to go in to every event and do the best that YOU can for that moment....Sure it's great to win...I think Adults should be happy just to be skating!

the adults at my rink ARE just happy to be skating; they took a lot of convincing to skate in the shows.

They don't want to compete-they don't want the pressure. I'm the only one that competes and I do ISI events for now.

I have no idea how to convince them otherwise, they don't want to spend the extra $$$$ on testing just to compete.

Isk8NYC

04-16-2009, 10:25 AM

CoachPA

04-16-2009, 10:46 AM

On the USFS site they have a new schedule for double implementation dates. They also moved some of the moves around. They took the moves that are going to require coaches time to learn and put them as a Sept 2010 date and the easy changes will go through Sept 2009 (that is if they pass!). It will still be a nightmare for test chairs.

LW

:!: Attention: the PSA just sent out an E-Reach e-mail stating the following in regards to the new MIF proposal:

Hello Coaches,

There are a couple of big news items for you today:

1) NEW MIF EDITS AND ROLLOUT SCHEDULE: There are some edits to the New Moves in the Field proposal for Governing Council.

The forward loops have been moved to Novice and the spirals in Novice have been moved to Intermediate. There will be another pattern (serpentine) proposed for the Senior Step.

The rollout will be for non-qualifying levels only in September 2009 and for abbreviated existing moves or combined direction existing moves. The other proposed changes for Juvenile through Senior will be for September of 2010.

These changes have come about as a result of the feedback from various coaching, judges, and skater groups and a series of conference calls with the Athletes Advisory Committee. Many of the changes came about in recent weeks and could not be printed in the Governing Council Meeting Book.

The changes will be presented to the U.S. Figure Skating Board of Directors with the Moves in the Field Task Force proposal. The decision of the Board will be published as a Report of Action for Delegates to examine at the meeting in Buffalo.

Also, a formal presentation of the moves in the field proposal will take place Thursday, April 30 at 3:30 p.m. at Governing Council.

To view the changes go to USFSA.org
-Type new moves in the search box
-Click on Revised Moves in the Field Test Structure and Implementation Plan

Skate@Delaware

04-16-2009, 11:12 AM

The ISI offers skaters the opportunity to "test DOWN" to a lower level if you can no longer perform at your highest test level. Those are former skaters (adult or child) that are no longer skating at/above their test level due to injuries or loss of skills.

I looked in the USFSA rule book, but didn't see anything addressing that issue. I think they're supposed to do interpretive events instead of the freestyles, but I'm not sure that they realize it or want to skate those events.

Just throwing it out there for discussion.
It would be nice if you could offer a substitution because of an injury...I don't know if I will ever get a true sitspin because of my back (time will tell on that). I know many of my adult skating friends are fighting bad knees so that holds them up as well. Dr's note anyone? Skating interpretive doesnt sound like a good solution if you are only missing one or two elements; maybe if you can't jump/spin anymore it would work.

Skittl1321

04-16-2009, 11:28 AM

The ISI offers skaters the opportunity to "test DOWN" to a lower level if you can no longer perform at your highest test level. Those are former skaters (adult or child) that are no longer skating at/above their test level due to injuries or loss of skills.

I looked in the USFSA rule book, but didn't see anything addressing that issue. I think they're supposed to do interpretive events instead of the freestyles, but I'm not sure that they realize it or want to skate those events.

Just throwing it out there for discussion.

I didn't know that! That's kind of cool. Of course, ISI limits elements, so it's much easier to regulate that sort of thing.

I do wish there was a "substitute element" sort of thing, especially for the sit-spin. In one of the tests can't you do a layback or something else? It would be the same sort of idea as that. Or that they just recognize a sit spin as a pre-IJS "sitting position" and not necessarily parallel to the ice. I've tapped myself doing some sit spins where you might just think it was a bad scratch spin, but most of them I look like I'm sitting, but not parallel, and due to my knees it might never be parallel. (My knees limit a lot, I get on the ice and ask myself "power pulls, cross rolls, or sit spins" because if I do more than one in a day I can't walk the next one!)

Isk8NYC

04-16-2009, 11:52 AM

I didn't know that! That's kind of cool. Of course, ISI limits elements, so it's much easier to regulate that sort of thing. You're right: the element restrictions provide some regulation. Important to note that this is NOT done on a competition-by-competition basis. The skater has to submit a request to ISI HQ to 'step down' to a certain level. This is a one-time only opportunity; the skater can't ask for it again.

I don't remember if the skater had to retake the lower-level test. (Maybe.) From that point on, it's as if they had never taken the higher-level tests. To move up, the skater has to take the higher-level tests again and move up in their competition test levels accordingly.

The ISI really thought out how to include as many people as possible and keep the playing field level.

There are some ISI elements that are "choice of..." but the sit spin isn't one of them, IIRC.

vesperholly

04-16-2009, 12:14 PM

There will be another pattern (serpentine) proposed for the Senior Step.
Interesting! I am very curious to see what this looks like. The current proposal for the footwork circle is, er, complicated.

rlichtefeld

04-16-2009, 01:54 PM

Since the proposals come from/through the Adult Skating Committee, I'd be curious to know the background of the members. There was a time - way back in the Dark Ages - when the majority of the members were adults who'd started skating after the age of age of 25. I suspect that is no long the case.

Here is the current list of members of the Adult Committee of the USFSA (http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=114).

This will change at Governing Council. I've been asked to join the committee for next year.

Rob

Stormy

04-16-2009, 02:06 PM

Here is the current list of members of the Adult Committee of the USFSA (http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=114).

This will change at Governing Council. I've been asked to join the committee for next year.

Rob

I have as well, I'm very excited to be a part of it. Glad to hear you're on it too!

flo

04-16-2009, 02:18 PM

Glad to hear you two will be on the committee. You'll be able to bring a great perspective.

I know it's also hard for those of us who started out at the beginning of the adult program. This will be my 15th nationals, and there have been quite a few changes over the years. It's great to see the program evolve, but also what I'm seeing is that there's a lack of tracking/planning of these changes and understanding of their impact on our original goals.

There are those of us who, although understandably also 15 years older, are wondering if there will be a place for us in the program we worked so very hard to create.

Thin-Ice

04-17-2009, 03:33 AM

I know it's also hard for those of us who started out at the beginning of the adult program. This will be my 15th nationals, and there have been quite a few changes over the years. It's great to see the program evolve, but also what I'm seeing is that there's a lack of tracking/planning of these changes and understanding of their impact on our original goals.

There are those of us who, although understandably also 15 years older, are wondering if there will be a place for us in the program we worked so very hard to create.

I'm so glad to hear someone else say this!!! I do understand why USFS wants to keep the "aging up kids" active in the sport.. but I do hope the powers-that-be remember those of us who started the sport as adults, were thrilled to see a place for us to actually belong and now see it starting to slip away, even though many of us are still improving our skills and working on harder elements.

pairman2

04-17-2009, 06:26 AM

I'm not sure why kids aging up into adult competition have any effect on open competition age brackets 3,4,5. Group 1 is for the most part all 'kids' now, which is pretty much what was intended and any effect on Group 2 open event skaters is going to be nominal, meaning, if a kid is in full 'retirement' before returning to age level 2 competition, the years of absence will mitigate whatever prior experience they had. Of course the Masters catagory takes care of all the real disparity. Also, while Championship Gold is not age sensitive, the open events are still there as an alternative.

flo

04-17-2009, 07:49 AM

Because category 1 is not the only group where the returning skaters are competing. They return to all age brackets and have more than a 'nominal" effect on the groups. Many of my friends (in the upper age categories) have stopped competing because, as I've seen in silver, there's a returning skaters back to "test the waters" before they figure out they don't belong there. And the years in "retirement" could mean any level of activity. It takes alot more than a few years to "mitigate" skating as a kid.

Kim to the Max

04-17-2009, 08:10 AM

Because category 1 is not only where the returning skaters are competing. They return to all age brackets and have more than a 'nominal" effect on the groups. Many of my friends (in the upper age categories) have stopped competing because, as I've seen in silver, there's a returning skaters back to "test the waters" before they figure out they don't belong there. And the years in "retirement" could mean any level of activity. It takes alot more than a few years to "mitigate" skating as a kid.

I do not compete, but for me, I did not skate for almost 9 years (skating maybe once every 6 months....maybe), and when I came back at the age of 27 I was functioning at a high enough level...a little stiff, but generally okay, now, almost 2 years later, I am working on finally landing my axel clean (after working on it for almost 2 years now, and before I stopped skating not having it clean), double sals, and coach just started me on fixing my loop to start double loops. I have passed my Novice moves, and am looking to test Junior in October-ish. I would not imagine competing against people who had started skating as adults...I don't think that that is fair...I have too much respect for people who have done that. I wish there were a way to separate the two groups...but I can't think of a fair or equitable way to do so...you can't even go on standard vs. adult track because many adults choose to test standard track...things to think about!

pairman2

04-17-2009, 08:10 AM

So for example, Jane Doe retires at 18 (from no higher then Juvenile), comes back twenty years later at the age of 38 and that is a threat to fair competition in Silver or Gold?

skaternum

04-17-2009, 08:19 AM

So for example, Jane Doe retires at 18 (from no higher then Juvenile), comes back twenty years later at the age of 38 and that is a threat to fair competition in Silver or Gold?

Yes, it can be.

sk8er1964

04-17-2009, 08:52 AM

So for example, Jane Doe retires at 18 (from no higher then Juvenile), comes back twenty years later at the age of 38 and that is a threat to fair competition in Silver or Gold?

I wish someone would tell the judges that about me. Then maybe I'd have a handful of AN medals instead of consistently placing behind people who started as adults.

Debbie S

04-17-2009, 09:26 AM

Group 1 is for the most part all 'kids' now, which is pretty much what was intended and any effect on Group 2 open event skaters is going to be nominal, meaning, if a kid is in full 'retirement' before returning to age level 2 competition, the years of absence will mitigate whatever prior experience they had. What about when the continuously-skating I's move up to II when they reach that age? And so on. Returning kid skaters can have an effect on all levels. It generally happens in Silver and Gold more than Bronze, but it happens in Bronze also. Just because someone skated as a kid doesn't mean they competed, or even tested, as a kid, so you can get skaters at all levels who are 'testing the waters' of adult comp. Heck, I competed in Pre-Bronze Spins at HC one year against a woman who had skated (in her own words) since she was 8. Now, maybe "skating" was really circling the rink at public sessions with friends and she didn't start taking lessons until she was an adult, who knows.

But there are many factors that affect adult skaters and kid skating experience is just one of them. Skating as a kid doesn't guarantee that one will beat adult-onset skaters. That's why I think it would be very hard to set up different competition tracks based on "kid" vs "adult" skating. If you want to compete, I say just work hard to get your jumps and spins to where they would be competitive at your level, or don't compete. I basically gave up competing FS b/c I realized I was never going to be a jumper (or spinner, really) and I didn't enjoy being overmatched in comp all the time. So I'm just focusing on MIF and testing right now, and if I do compete again, I'll do Interp and CM events.

flo

04-17-2009, 10:48 AM

Kim to the Max

04-17-2009, 11:08 AM

Good point Debbie.
Kim - I think the key is also that you have respsect for yourself.
As with skater1964 - it can go either way. What we've been depending on is the skater's integrity to place themselves appropriately.

This is true, flo...I may consider competing once I can hit the masters levels (Intermediate/Novice free is still within reach I believe), but until I can hit that point, I don't think it would be right...

pairman2

04-17-2009, 11:27 AM

flo

04-17-2009, 11:38 AM

For one thing there is never a "poor adult onset skater". That's just insulting.
What has been said here is that learning as a child can (for those of you needing qualifiers) give you a distinct advantage over learning the exact same skills as an adult. Physiologically and psychologically there is a difference. The skaters may be "equally qualified", but in the majority of times you can pick out the adult skater from the kid skater - at any level.
Also we well know that the kid skaters are notorious for testing well below their ability to be competitive.

rlichtefeld

04-17-2009, 11:39 AM

Hmm
This last year, the standard track tests, prejuvenile and juvenile tests were explicity added as qualifiers to Silver and Gold. As I recall, this passed the adult committee with unanimous support. So by this reasoning, if one skater passed the gold test today and another skater passed the Juvenile test the same day, they are equally qualified to compete at the same level, provided they are in the same age bracket. And what I here some saying here is that if someone passed the Juvenile test 20 years ago and the poor adult onset skater passed the gold test today, then the old Juvenile skater has an unfair advantage Go figure...

If I'm not mistaken, the Juvenile test 20 years ago, in no way relates to the Juvenile test today. Since I wasn't involved in skating 20 years ago, I can't be certain, but things change.

As to Flo and the Juvenile Pairs test that she and her partner had to take 15 years ago, because that was the FIRST pairs test at that time. It now puts her in Gold Pairs, when the Juv Pairs test back then was more like the Bronze or Silver Pairs test now.

Rob

blue111moon

04-17-2009, 11:39 AM

There are those of us who, although understandably also 15 years older, are wondering if there will be a place for us in the program we worked so very hard to create.

I know there isn't for me, which is why I've stopped doing USFS Adult events. It's just not fun anymore.

I hope the new members of the committee have better luck getting things done than I did during my stint Way Back When....

flo

04-17-2009, 11:48 AM

Right Rob, and it was actually called the preliminary pairs test then. The name was later changed to juvenile and the elements changed. And now although the same preliminary test came back and removed again last fall, those who have taken it recently are now pre-juvenile while those of us who took the very same test before are still juvenile. So we even see from this very clear example that the test levels as written and currently applied to competition mean very little in reference to skating ability.

This is what is frustrating about the flury of quickly passed rules. There's not enough attention and thought put into how these rules will impact the adult program. There's no understanding of where we've been. We put in a great deal of work to get the adult program started, and it's sad to see it heading this way.

Debbie S

04-17-2009, 12:05 PM

If I'm not mistaken, the Juvenile test 20 years ago, in no way relates to the Juvenile test today. Since I wasn't involved in skating 20 years ago, I can't be certain, but things change.
Yeah, I think the rules are written that if you passed Juv before a certain date (1994?) you are still Silver, but if you passed Juv after that, you are Gold. I remember around this time last year, one of our posters (Ellyn K?) posted a very informative description of how the tests evolved over the years. I think the issue was that the Juv test didn't always have an axel required, so only those that took the test with the axel have to be in Gold, b/c that matches the Gold test requirements.

Skate@Delaware

04-17-2009, 12:42 PM

I'm a "not quite ready for prime-time" player...I skate mostly for the shows, compete ISI, but have a coach that keeps pushing me to test USFS (although she doesn't seem interested in having me compete USFS).

I don't know if there will ever be a win-win for all; I'm just hoping for something more equitable for a majority of the skaters. I do think that skaters like me are becoming outnumbered by those "growing into" the adult category (do we have any actual numbers?)

I am hoping for a turnaround but right now I see the adult learn-to-skate (or whatever it's called now) dwindling and for now our numbers are dropping. I count 7 adult skaters at my rink (enrolled in classes and that includes me, the only one that competes). We have had one rink in my area close it's program and go completely over to hockey and public skating. There was hardly a ripple felt in the areas learn-to-skate programs. This carries an upward impact.

Bottom line: If there aren't enough adult skaters impacting the program from the get-go then why bother messing around with rules geared to adults learning as adults?

Just my 2 cents worth.

sk8er1964

04-17-2009, 01:00 PM

Good point Debbie.
Kim - I think the key is also that you have respsect for yourself.
As with skater1964 - it can go either way. What we've been depending on is the skater's integrity to place themselves appropriately.

My case is interesting, and I am sure I am not the only one. Pretend I haven't taken any adult tests. If we used my USFSA tests from when I was a kid, I am eligible to compete at Bronze because I only passed my preliminary freestyle. The 2nd figure test did me in - I never was able to pass the darn thing.

Now, me skating in Bronze would be a supreme case of sandbagging.

If you went by the level that I was actually skating at as a kid - skating up to Juvenile at non-qual comps - well I would have been a Silver. My first year I would have been more comfortable at Silver - to test the waters, to be honest - than gold.

However, my ISIA tests are what put me in Gold.

OK. I am married. How would anyone from US Figure Skating be able to prove that I took ISIA 6 as a kid? Heck, how would anyone at US Figure Skating be able to prove that I skated as a kid at all since my name is now different than it was when I was 14.

The honor system is very much in play.

ETA: Non-qual juvenile in 1978 was much different than now. Don't know how it was in qualifying because I never got there. ;)

pairman2

04-17-2009, 01:12 PM

As Deb correctly points out, the rules I cited were indeed date sensitive.

R., as I pointed out:
'they are equally qualified to compete at the same level, provided they are in the same age bracket.', this of course does not apply to pairs which have no age brackets.

Skate@Delaware

04-17-2009, 01:22 PM

I could be accused of sandbagging because I haven't tested USFS yet...but have been skating for 6 years. I have tested ISI freestyle 2 but haven't passed my level 3 yet (darn back 3's do me in every time, along with the change-foot spin). I could skate UP but don't have all the elements to compete evenly with pre-bronze ladies. Legally I can compete no-test. Is that fair? To other no-test ladies I'm skating against that don't have my range of show-skating experience or to me?

Now the ISI is instituting an OPEN category, in which they are now lumping together groups of their freestyles (don't quote me, I'm doing this by memory) like Freestyle 1-4 are grouped together into the Bronze group, etc. and you can throw in ANY element from the 4 groups (any of the jumps, spins, etc) into a 2 minute program. Can't remember if that is just for the Artistic or Freestyle programs. Seems a little more unfair for the lower level skaters than the higher, but ISI judges (who are coaches drawn from the rinks) seem to be grading on other elements besides the "wow-factor").

Is anyone else familiar with this?

flo

04-17-2009, 02:27 PM

'they are equally qualified to compete at the same level, provided they are in the same age bracket.', this of course does not apply to pairs which have no age brackets.

Perhaps equally qualified to enter. In the pairs the age categories would make no difference. As pointed out, under the current rules there is no equitability at all in entry levels.

pairman2

04-17-2009, 03:15 PM

whatever

and age catagories do of course make a difference where they exist

vesperholly

04-17-2009, 03:47 PM

The adult skating world is so small that it seems illogical to me to purposely discourage a particular subset of skaters in order to win more medals at one competition a year.

jazzpants

04-17-2009, 04:02 PM

The adult skating world is so small that it seems illogical to me to purposely discourage a particular subset of skaters in order to win more medals at one competition a year.

To quote from Rodney King: "Can't we all just git along now???" :giveup:

And YES, I'm saying knowing full well that I will likely be at the cellar on BOTH my events and I have NO chances in H-E-Double hockey sticks of making it to the final round on technical b/c I'm competing against people who probably skated as kids and have MITF and ice dance test background that I never would even DREAM of having now!!! Most of the so called sandbaggers I've met or know about are very KIND people who seriously WANT you to do well, just like most of the adult skaters! Why bash them??? Waste of energy!!!

I will use the old Bug Bunny Line: "If you can't beat 'em (the sandbaggers), JOIN 'EM!!!" Work on your own skating so you CAN sandbag!!! :twisted: :lol: :P (Please take that last line very TOUGUE IN CHEEK!!!)

daisies

04-17-2009, 05:58 PM

There's not enough attention and thought put into how these rules will impact the adult program. There's no understanding of where we've been.
I have to comment on this. You know me, you know I am on the committee, and you know I have competed in all the ANs since the first one in 1995, just like you. So it is disheartening to me to read such generalities. The committee puts a lot of attention and thought into everything it does; it exists to promote and do what's best for adult skating. But the issues it deals with are also works in progress. We're working out the kinks on new issues just like we did on what are now older and established issues. It's the same in standard track -- look at IJS, for example: The levels of difficulty change every single year, and not always for the best, but TPTB see how things are affected and they iron things out as they go along.

Bottom line, we're all volunteers and we're trying to do our best. I know you've done this already, but to everyone else, if you have a problem with something, feel free to write to the committee chair or to your sectional vice chair, and we will try to help. Contact information can be found here: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=114

Julie Gidlow
Sectional Vice Chair, Pacific Coast
USFS Adult Skating Committee

jskater49

04-17-2009, 06:42 PM

I didn't know that! That's kind of cool. Of course, ISI limits elements, so it's much easier to regulate that sort of thing.

I do wish there was a "substitute element" sort of thing, especially for the sit-spin. In one of the tests can't you do a layback or something else? It would be the same sort of idea as that. Or that they just recognize a sit spin as a pre-IJS "sitting position" and not necessarily parallel to the ice. I've tapped myself doing some sit spins where you might just think it was a bad scratch spin, but most of them I look like I'm sitting, but not parallel, and due to my knees it might never be parallel. (My knees limit a lot, I get on the ice and ask myself "power pulls, cross rolls, or sit spins" because if I do more than one in a day I can't walk the next one!)

The sit spin is why I will never try to pass Bronze Freestyle.

j

jskater49

04-17-2009, 06:48 PM

If you want to compete, I say just work hard to get your jumps and spins to where they would be competitive at your level, or don't compete. I basically gave up competing FS b/c I realized I was never going to be a jumper (or spinner, really) and I didn't enjoy being overmatched in comp all the time. So I'm just focusing on MIF and testing right now, and if I do compete again, I'll do Interp and CM events.

Or you can do like I do. I'm done learning new jumps for now. I'm too confused by the salchow. I love to do programs. I love to be part of the competition. I go out there and skate my program with my little half jumps but lots of smiling and personality and I usually come in last but I think people enjoy watching me skate and a good time is had by all.

That's not just for adults. My daughter always loved going to Regionals. She almost always came in last or second to last and she knew she would before she went. But she had a great time.

I think there's a lot of good to come out of participating in a competition and it is worth the money and time even if you don't have a chance of placing well.

Joelle

SkaterBird

04-17-2009, 08:27 PM

Or you can do like I do. I'm done learning new jumps for now. I'm too confused by the salchow. I love to do programs. I love to be part of the competition. I go out there and skate my program with my little half jumps but lots of smiling and personality and I usually come in last but I think people enjoy watching me skate and a good time is had by all.

That's not just for adults. My daughter always loved going to Regionals. She almost always came in last or second to last and she knew she would before she went. But she had a great time.

I think there's a lot of good to come out of participating in a competition and it is worth the money and time even if you don't have a chance of placing well.

Joelle

My feelings exactly. There are more reasons to compete in available competitions than how you place - for me, it's mostly about the joy of simply participating in a sport that I love, will never be very good at, but want to be a part of anyway. And as someone who has seen Joelle compete a few times, I can tell you that she absolutely lights up the ice with her nonstop smile and the joy of the sport. One of the wonderful things about figure skating is that programs are (or should be) about artistry as well as technical skills.

Mimi

sk8lady

04-17-2009, 08:39 PM

What is discouraging to me is that when the adult system was introduced, I thought it was geared towards people like me who started skating as adults and were overcoming the same obstacles that every other adult--over the age of, I think, 25 as it was originally--was overcoming: working around kids, jobs, household and financial responsibilities while trying to learn something completely new.

My person experience is this: When I learned to ride as a kid, I didn't have those distractions and obstacles. I got pretty good and then stopped riding when I was 15, rode twice in college, and didn't ride again till I was in my late 30's, and after about six weeks participated in a gymkhana and won a second and third place ribbon. I stopped riding after that and have been riding 3 times since then--one of the times during an emergency I helped lead a trail ride. Your body just DOES NOT forget athletic stuff like that--your brain does not even need to engage. Adult onset skaters and returning skaters are generally not going to be able to be on the same page, unless the adult onset skater has talent, lots of free time to spend on skating, boogoo ice time, and boogoo bucks to spend on getting coaching!

flo

04-17-2009, 09:00 PM

Daisies, we all realize that we are all volunteers. I'm sure some issues get more consideration and thought than others. However with the latest set of pair rule changes it's difficult to see this. Last fall I pointed out specific problems and issues only to be told that "after a detailed review" that it was determined that I was the only one impacted. How detailed could it have been when 4 of the 7 pairs in this years group are in the same situation? Were the pairs competing in the last 5 years surveyed to actually find out if they were in this situation or how the latest set of rule changes would have impacted us? If this would have delayed the decision, then delay it rather than waste the committee's time making decisions with 1/2 information. This only results in having to take more time to change it the next session. When was the last time the adults were actually asked how they felt about any of these proposals? When was the last survey? (I know because I did it and it was quite a while ago).

Before any new rules are passed, the existing structure needs to be reviewed so there is a solid base of knowledge from which to work. What I pointed out to the pair chair and adult chair should not have come as a surprise to anyone representing pairs. It's great that we have the volunteers, but if you take on the responsibility of representing the skaters, than this is what is expected. There are too many of these rules that get pushed through with a "snapshot" picture of the situation now, and not enough research as to their history and future impact. Given that the group is all volunteers, I would much prefer more time taken to get it closer to right (or at least not worse) than the constant flurry of changes.

jazzpants

04-18-2009, 01:20 AM

Your body just DOES NOT forget athletic stuff like that--your brain does not even need to engage. Adult onset skaters and returning skaters are generally not going to be able to be on the same page, unless the adult onset skater has talent, lots of free time to spend on skating, boogoo ice time, and boogoo bucks to spend on getting coaching!Wish I could say the same for me... I skated on public sessions every weekend and got to waltz jumps, one foot spins and a semi-decent shoot the duck when I quit skating. I did not have coaching back then... just followed along with the other figure skatng kids.

I came back to the sport 17 years later and I could not jump OR spin and barely could crossover!!! Took me about a half year to get a sorta hoppy waltz jump and one foot spin when I came back to the sport... and this time it was with coaching. And shoot the duck? Well, I started on it two years ago (It will be 10 years I've been skating as an adult in JUNE!!! :bow: ) and NOW I'm starting to get it to the point where my secondary coach says "I KNOW you can do a decent shoot the duck going FORWARDS and that's HARDER to hold that position than a sit spin. Therefore you have NO EXCUSE to NOT go down lower on that sit spin." :twisted:

(Well... no comment!!! :roll: :oops: :lol: )

I guess the point is... this body certain had AMNESIA when it comes to skating, that's for sure!!! :twisted: :frus:

sk8lady

04-18-2009, 07:39 AM

I guess every body is different! I actually did one session of figure skating in the ISI program when I was 15. The only thing I remembered when I went back to skating in my 30's was back crossovers. I can do back crossovers like nobody's business! I have FABULOUS back crossovers! Too bad it is taking me six years to learn how to do a loop!!
And by the way...remind your coach that it's not so hard to go DOWN into the shoot the duck position. What's hard is getting back UP. (Let alone spinning around while you're doing it.)

daisies

04-18-2009, 02:36 PM

There are too many of these rules that get pushed through with a "snapshot" picture of the situation now, and not enough research as to their history and future impact. Given that the group is all volunteers, I would much prefer more time taken to get it closer to right (or at least not worse) than the constant flurry of changes.
Tell that to the U.S. Congress. Or the Federal Reserve. And those people get paid.

Nothing is perfect. We are trying. We appreciate you bringing it to the attention of the appropriate committee chairs, because that's definitely more productive than posting about it on a message board. (Not singling you out, just saying it in general, because a lot of people vent here rather than tell the people who can do something about it.)

See you in GR!

flo

04-18-2009, 06:09 PM

Daisies - you're exactly right! I don't know about the congress stuff, though.
sk8lady - Ha! I told my kids in group lessons today that if I could get down into a shoot the duck so could they!

jazzpants

04-18-2009, 06:38 PM

And by the way...remind your coach that it's not so hard to go DOWN into the shoot the duck position. What's hard is getting back UP. (Let alone spinning around while you're doing it.)Yes, and I constantly have to remind them of that too!!! Case in point -- last Wed. with my secondary coach I did a sit spin she was all excited about (b/c it WAS low enough!!!) But soon after I went down on my butt and she gives me this look that says "GEEZ!!! Why did you have to ruin a perfectly GOOD sit spin by NOT getting back up again and instead sitting on your BUTT???" :P :lol:

liz_on_ice

04-19-2009, 08:25 PM

I could be accused of sandbagging because I haven't tested USFS yet...but have been skating for 6 years. I have tested ISI freestyle 2 but haven't passed my level 3 yet (darn back 3's do me in every time, along with the change-foot spin).

Back 3? I just passed FS3 and there was no back 3. The FS4 dance sequence has them.

ITA on the change-foot spin, that one element kept me at FS2 for an extra year.

blue111moon

04-20-2009, 07:55 AM

...a lot of people vent here rather than tell the people who can do something about it.

But will they do anything? From my past experience, I'd say, no; they had their own agendas, which seemed to be focussed on the high end of the audlt scale, making AN closer to the "real" Nationals, generally making things harder for adults who started as adults to progress and actively discouraging new adults from taking up the sport (other than at the Basic Skills levels) because some people found adults without a lot of speed and skill to be "embarrassing" for the "real" skaters to be associated with. (And yes, I was told that last phrose to my face by one of the former committee members.) Can you wonder why I've given up adressing the committee? And I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I realize the committee members have changed but I'm still not seeing much evidence that the focus of the committee has changed. Until they remember who the Adult Program was begun for and why, I feel that talking to them is pretty much a waste of my time.

So I'll vent here where people at least listen and acknowledge varying points of view.

RachelSk8er

04-20-2009, 09:25 AM

I was one of the ones "kid skaters" who "tested the waters" last year, having only competed freestyle at the pre-pre level a handfull of times (mostly when I was 11) but with a synchro background and on the higher end with regard to moves (which although I have novice I passed it 9 yrs prior) and dance. Where else was someone like me supposed to compete in free other than bronze? When I took my bronze free before the deadline to get the test in to compete at ANs, I could hardly do a back scratch spin, and really struggled with getting a good camel spin (never had a good camel spin to begin with when I was a kid). I think there is no reason not to "test the waters" and see where you belong as a new adult skater, particularly if you are strong in one discipline or two but trying something new...but if you do well, promptly move up to where you are competitive and not sandbagging. Winning every competition without having to put forth much effort won't make you a better skater.

As for the growth of these kid skaters at all levels...it's only going to increase. Over the past decade, the number of colleges offering opportunities for skaters to stay active in the sport (whether via on-campus figure skating clubs, intercollegiate competitions, synchro teams, etc) has grown exponentially. ALL levels (pre-pre through senior) are offered at intercollegiate competitions. As these skaters continue to graduate from college and wish to stay active in skating as adult skaters, they need to be accomodated.

Another thought--I do not think forcing everyone to compete at a certain level based on childhood test levels works in all cases. There are some adult skaters who skated as kids, and due to medical problems or other physical limitations simply cannot get near the level they used to be. I'm thinking of one skater I know in particular who, 10-15 years ago, was a very solid prelim or pre-juvenile skater (had an axel, working on a double toe, really nice spins). Today she has a medical condition that has caused a lot of weight gain and other physical limitations, and despite all the work she puts in, she's truly only a pre-bronze or bronze skater today in terms of jumps, spins, and just the ability to make it through a program (no way could this skater do a 2:10 program, 1:40 is a struggle for her and she no longer has the jumps/spins to pass a silver free test). I can think of another skater whom many of you know who had juv free as a kid, was competing silver as an adult (placing around the middle-bottom of the pack), and had to move up to gold by virtue of her juv free test she passed as a kid (and now has medical problems that prevent her from skating/training much, if at all). I think there should be a way for someone like these ladies who did compete as a kid, and has some standard free tests from years ago, to be able to petition to compete at a lower level due to physical limitations as an adult. Just like sandbagging won't do someone any good, having to compete where you physically are unable to be competitive also won't help anyone improve.

looplover

04-20-2009, 11:32 AM

OK I'm kind of being devil's advocate here. As I kid I only got up to a slow one foot spin from a standstill and no jumps so I'm definitely not a kid skater.

But isn't this all essentially based on tests passed? It's sports - and while I understand the frustration of not being able to get it as quickly as someone who had it as a kid (happens to me) - ultimately if people are at the same test level and in the same age class, there shouldn't be resentment. The problem isn't that the people who return can do it better...the problem is that we aren't meeting our OWN expectations for what we want to accomplish. Forget about the other people, do the best that you can do. I still can't get my stupid single flip back from only two years ago and it's keeping me from being competitive in any way. Stinks, truly. But I also do NOT want the bar lowered for me in any way. I passed Bronze tests and I skate Bronze ... so does the person who had a double flip 20 years ago and now has a great single flip...

Hannahclear

04-20-2009, 11:50 AM

I agree. I skated as a teenager and got through basic skills and did some pretty crappy pre-pre programs. Now, I'm bronze and skating less crappy programs of a slightly higher level. Sure, I'm going to be outclassed by skaters who were much better in their younger days, maybe getting through a few doubles. But that's just how it is. Stinks for me, but what's the alternative? I don't want to limit participation. Growing rates of adult interest, from new skaters and aging out skaters, will keep AN going.

Ellyn

04-20-2009, 12:20 PM

Another thought--I do not think forcing everyone to compete at a certain level based on childhood test levels works in all cases. There are some adult skaters who skated as kids, and due to medical problems or other physical limitations simply cannot get near the level they used to be.

This is even true of some adult-onset skaters I knew a decade or so ago.

They were in their mid 40s to early 50s then and had just barely managed to get a consistent enough loop or flip jump to pass the bronze freestyle test when that was the first adult test.

If they're still skating now, there's a good chance that because of injuries and general aging they can't do the loop or flip at all any more and have not increased their speed and flow, perhaps the opposite, even if they improved their technique.

Since then incoming adult skaters with that skill level would likely stay in prebronze.

But these skaters had already passed the bronze test so they wouldn't be allowed to go back.

At least it would allow them to enter Adult Nationals if they wish, and because the fields there are large enough to split by age they might be competing on a reasonably level playing field.

But at a local competition, they would be at a huge disadvantage competing against 30-year-old bronze skaters who started in their 20s and had to pass moves in the field tests as well to get to that level.

I'm glad I didn't push to pass the silver test 10 years ago when it was mainly stamina and the camel spin holding me back. Even if those have improved a little since then, my flip jump hasn't gotten any better (so I don't even bother with the lutz), and I'm not even ready to test the back threes on the silver MITF. I want to get to the point where I have the skills to pass the silver tests, and many years from now hopefully the gold moves, but I don't think I'll ever test silver freestyle because I'm not getting any younger, smaller, or less injured, and my jumps and stamina will never be comparable with what a younger, fitter bronze skater can do, whether they started and reached that level as kids or as youngish adults.

(And I was a preliminary skater, = to prepreliminary these days, with a beginner axel, way back before there were any separate freestyle tests.)

pairman2

04-20-2009, 12:29 PM

blue111moon, I agree with the last several posts and to comment on the issues you raised. As a past committee member, I do think the adult committee spends a slightly disproportionate amount time with AN level issues and within that context, also a lot of time on masters and qualifying event level issues, so I think some of your critisism is valid. Having said that, there is still plenty of time and effort put into rules and such affecting everyone. I think it should be understood that the committee does and should have limitations on the scope of what can be addressed on a national level. Perhaps 95% of everthing that affects the adult skater, 'adult onset skaters' and all, really happens on the local level, particularly at your rink, your club and at whatever smaller competitions are close enough to drive to. Making it to AN isn't guaranteed for everyone and certainly, neither is medaling. So most of the focus needs to be put closer to home somehow and off of a national committee and competition. I think a greater challenge would be to get entrants at local competitions to the point that enough skaters participate so that everyone can't get a medal!

blue111moon

04-20-2009, 01:06 PM

Perhaps 95% of everthing that affects the adult skater, 'adult onset skaters' and all, really happens on the local level, particularly at your rink, your club and at whatever smaller competitions are close enough to drive to. Making it to AN isn't guaranteed for everyone and certainly, neither is medaling. So most of the focus needs to be put closer to home somehow and off of a national committee and competition. I think a greater challenge would be to get entrants at local competitions to the point that enough skaters participate so that everyone can't get a medal!

Wxactly. For a while the numbers of adults at local competitions were increasing steadily, but in the last five to six years, the numbers I'm seeing (as an accountant, one of my duties is tracking numbers) have been declining to the point that some competitions have stopped including adults entirely. We're lucky now to get more than one flight of skaters in any level. And the new rule fobidding men and ladies from skating against each other at non-quals is going to hurt even more, especially since USFS has already outlawed skating against the book. Who wants to spend $60 to skate an exhibition?

The rationale the LOCs are using is that Adults have sectionals - and there are all-adult competitions like Peach Classic that "adults prefer" to give adults a place to compete. The attitude out there seems to be that the only competition adults are interested in is Adult Nationals - and that attitude has been fostered by the focus of the Adult Committee. Local comps are sort of the ugly stepchild in the corner. It's a shame really, because the local comps are where adult skating began - there wouldn't BE an Adult Nationals if adults hadn't started showing up at local comps and proving that they belonged on the ice as much as the kids.

It's easy now to blame the declining numbers on the economy. But the fact is a lot of adults have turned away from USFS and their narrow focus on AN. Maybe it's time the Adult Committee looked at that.

livestrong04

04-20-2009, 01:53 PM

I'm an adult skater who never skated as a child. I'm trying so hard to get an uncheated loop jump and something resembling a sit spin but it may never happen. I'm only at PreBronze and will be for awhile given the above, so I don't qualify for Adult Nationals and even if I did, I don't think I can justify the expense to travel to Adult Nationals, to Sectionals or any adult-only competitions. So my only venue to get competition experience and to improve is at local competitions, and I am grateful for those opportunities. I really hope the committee continues to keep the needs of adult-onset skaters in mind. Yes I am slow, and I am scared of falling, but I LOVE skating and no one can say that I don't try!

Debbie S

04-20-2009, 02:16 PM

So my only venue to get competition experience and to improve is at local competitions, and I am grateful for those opportunities. Yes, not every adult wants to (or can) go to AN, for a variety of reasons. I hope 'kid' club comps don't start eliminating adult events. At the same time, though, people need to support them. Several club comps in my area used to attract good numbers of adults (well, enough so that not everyone got a medal, lol) but they aren't attracting the adult entrants they used to. I hear a lot of adult skaters saying that they only want to support all-adult comps, and in my area, there are several opportunities for that, but it would also be nice to have additional options, esp if one of the adult comps doesn't work out timewise.

For someone like me who doesn't plan on going to AN in the foreseeable future, it would be nice to have some summer comp opportunities, but adults that have just been to AN are still recovering from their past season so aren't ready to compete yet. So comps don't get enough entrants in the adult events to have a comp, and then stop offering adult events altogether.

Right now, though, the economy is probably having a large affect on comp numbers, both adult and kid. It looks like AN numbers are down a bit this year. I suspect it's going to be a tough summer for clubs hosting comps. The fact that entry fees (for both IJS and 6.0 events) have gone up across the board doesn't make it easier.

quarkiki2

04-20-2009, 03:05 PM

I can say that I, personally, would love to see an adult category for a team with mainly no-test skaters -- like mine. We're not old enough to be a masters team.

The team we fielded at ISI Nationals this past weekend had one Adult gold skater (our coach), one Bronze skater, and Jessi (skittles1321) who has passed Bronze MIF, but not tested Bronze free yet. The rest of us are no-test skaters. We skated as well as we could, but knew we were outclassed from the get-go. Thank goodness we're not medal driven -- we've learned that fourth out of five is as good as we'll ever do, so fourth place and clean programs is great!

If our team is around next year, we're considering crossing over and doing USFS Sectionals since they're happening here. We're pretty sure that we'll be beaten soundly, but if we skate well, we'll still be proud!

Stormy

04-20-2009, 03:11 PM

Skittl1321

04-20-2009, 03:13 PM

Adult Open sounds like the level you're looking for. You don't have to be Adult or Masters, and the requirements are pretty simple: A team of 8-12 skaters. The majority of the team must be 19 years or older. No test requirements.

Yes- but we've seen the teams who skate in it, and they could kick our butts with their eyes closed and in borrow skates (which almost happened at ISI nationals... happily the skater who practiced in borrowed skates got her skates in time for the comp.) Most of the teams DO have a test requirement, individually, even if the level doesn't. Our teams requirement is "can skate backwards quickly and do crossovers and mohawks". (I also think she got the test levels wrong. I'm pretty sure our coach is Adult Silver, with Gold moves, and the Bronze skater she mentioned is PB with Bronze moves, like me)

Like quarkiki said, we are happy to just be skating, but there isn't a level we could really compete in, in ISI or USFSA. It might as well be an exhibition.

I personally plan to test my Bronze free program in June, not because I'm ready to pass, but because I want a chance to skate it, and it's way cheaper to do the test than to do the competition, which would end up being against no one, or someone much higher than me anyway. So if I do pass- bonus, if not, well I get a critique :)

quarkiki2

04-20-2009, 03:19 PM

flo

04-20-2009, 04:12 PM

Bluemoon - in many cases nothing does get done by voicing concerns to the committee, but we're still hopeful.

Rachel - The test the waters skaters that irritate me are the ones ready to pass gold, with an axel and a couple doubles ready and enter at silver. Who are they kidding? I medaled at AN in bronze and I was a bronze skater, then tested up to silver and after a while medaled again. I didn't have any interest in taking the gold test then so I didn't compete at silver the next few years but moved on to interpretive.

I also passed bronze before the elements were changed (not sure about silver) but didn't expect or want to be put back to the pre-bronze level. The pairs issue is different in that the elements within a level were not change, but the test was eliminated and the test we were grandfathered to changed significantly . This has now happened twice, and yet with the same exact test, depending on when you took it, you are either a pre-juv (silver) or juvenile (gold). In addition the rules are inconsistent in that a juvenile freestyle before the rules were changed puts you at silver, and after gold. But for pairs there's no difference - you're gold. All in all this would still have been ok with me until the last mess of pair rules were passed allowing skating down. In theory, this would have been ok with all other factors being equal, but the homework was not done to determine if this was indeed the case. So this year we have skaters in the same group with significantly different test levels.

SkaterBird

04-20-2009, 04:16 PM

But will they do anything? From my past experience, I'd say, no; they had their own agendas, which seemed to be focussed on the high end of the audlt scale, making AN closer to the "real" Nationals, generally making things harder for adults who started as adults to progress and actively discouraging new adults from taking up the sport (other than at the Basic Skills levels) because some people found adults without a lot of speed and skill to be "embarrassing" for the "real" skaters to be associated with. (And yes, I was told that last phrose to my face by one of the former committee members.) Can you wonder why I've given up adressing the committee? And I'm not the only one who feels this way.
.

Whoever said that to you should be ashamed - anyone who holds an attitude like that one doesn't belong on the governing committee of any sport, let alone a governing committee that is supposedly interested in attracting new people of all ages to the sport. And shame on any skater who feels embarrassed about the efforts of any other skater of any age or ability - that type of attitude speaks volumes about the person or people who hold it, but (I hope) does not reflect the opinions of skaters in general.

Clarice

04-20-2009, 05:41 PM

Stormy -- yeah, adult open is where we'll compete, but 95% of the adult teams will still cream us. Which is fine -- we're not in it for medals, like I said. I'm pretty representative of most of my team's skaters and I still two-foot three turns at speed. We've got a *very* small pool of adult skaters in Iowa and are really proud of what we're able to do.

I keep telling you guys, you haven't seen our team yet! We are older than you, and probably pretty much in the same place skill-wise. I'm Silver with Gold MIF, we have one returning adult skater who had done her Preliminary test at best back in the day, and everybody else is no test. If you were a USFS team, you could compete against us - we're only an hour away! And probably win! You guys should totally come to Sectionals next year!

That said, there are two different kinds of Open Adult teams - those of us who are mainly no-test adults, and those that are made up of high test kids who aren't old enough for a regular Adult team, or don't have the numbers for a Senior team. Theoretically, you could have a whole team of 19 year old Senior skaters and call them Open Adult. We just ignore teams like that, and try to skate as well as we can for ourselves.

doubletoe

04-20-2009, 07:06 PM

Skittl and Jskater - PLEASE don't give up on the Bronze FS test just because of the sitspin!! I have seen adults pass this test with barely a squatting position because the overall quality of their program was good enough to satisfy the judges. I've seen the same thing happen on the Adult Gold FS test with the axel. I'm sure judges on the board can back me up on this. :)

Rachel - The test the waters skaters that irritate me are the ones ready to pass gold, with an axel and a couple doubles ready and enter at silver. Who are they kidding?

Is this in reference to pairs or singles skaters? If you're referring to singles, then I've personally never come across any of these skaters (I won AN in my age class at Silver in 2005, then moved up to Gold in 2006 and have been there since). I've heard a few Silver skaters *claim* to have a double or two, but once they move up to Gold, you rarely see them get credit for a clean double. I had an inconsistent double salchow by the time I tested up to Gold, and have still only landed one clean one in competition since moving up. In Gold, especially under IJS, it's actually quite common to get your butt kicked by someone who does nothing above a lutz!

flo

04-20-2009, 07:53 PM

sk8lady

04-21-2009, 09:08 AM

Getting back to the original topic...

Phase I of the plan will be implemented with the publication of the 2009-10 rulebook on Sept. 1, 2009. This will include the pre-preliminary through pre-juvenile tests along with the eight-step Mohawk in juvenile and the inside three-turns/rocker choctaw move in novice. The changes to the adult moves tests will also be rolled out Sept. 1, 2009.

Phase II will take effect Sept. 1, 2010, and include the intermediate through senior tests.

This is from the posting on the USFS website referring to the changes in the MITF.

The new proposed adult moves include changes at every level, including the addition of the Forward Circle Eight to Bronze Moves and the change in the Eight Step Mohawk to a figure eight pattern--so that you can't use the hockey circle to keep your circles the right size, or stop to realign in between the circles.

Sorry, but I think the proposed implementation plan stinks. Why on earth are they dividing the implementation dates like this, with one date being only four months after the final decision is made? These changes may be remarkably easy for kids to make, but for adults who have never done figures before (or have been working on the eight-step mohawk for two years and are finally close to having it right) it means either a rush to test or starting from scratch. Why not have the implementation date in Sept. 2010 for everyone? Geez.

Black Sheep

04-21-2009, 09:30 AM

Debbie S

04-21-2009, 10:09 AM

The new proposed adult moves include changes at every levelThere are no changes to the Gold test.

(although I have been tempted to send an e-mail to the adult chair asking why the slide chasses have a completely different focus (power/continuous flow) on the adult track than on the standard track (edge quality and extension) - methinks it's an error from back when they changed the moves a few years ago and substituted the slide chasses for that Novice move, of which the primary focus was power - I remember when the Silver test changed and they substituted power pulls for the slide chasses and for several weeks the focus for power pulls was edge quality and extension until someone figured it out - I wonder how many errors are going to occur with the test sheets next year with all the half-changes :roll:)

Why not have the implementation date in Sept. 2010 for everyone? Geez.Agreed.

Stormy

04-21-2009, 12:56 PM

blue111moon

04-21-2009, 01:58 PM

I have seen it as well, but not to a huge degree. There's really only a couple I could think of by name.

You haven't been around that long. I can come up with at least a dozen people right off the top of my head. And of the large group of people I skated with and against, only two are still competing.

A lot of times they used "injury" as the reason but the reality is that they got too discouraged and left.

sk8lady

04-21-2009, 04:17 PM

There are no changes to the Gold test.

Mea culpa-- I put blinders on to anything past the level I'm working on or have done--and Gold Moves is about to get another 8-12 months further away!:frus:

sk8er1964

04-21-2009, 09:57 PM

OK, here's a twist on what we've been discussing. Personally, I don't think someone who qualifies for a championship event should be allowed to skate in the corresponding open event at AN. If you qualify, you are skating at a higher level than those who did not qualify - the open event, IMO, is for people who didn't qualify or who couldn't get to the sectionals. It's no fun to skate in the open at AN and know that the first two or three places are probably going to be taken by people who are also skating (and in some cases - based on their past history - getting a medal) in the championship event. It's really common in gold ladies.

Debbie S

04-21-2009, 10:48 PM

It's no fun to skate in the open at AN and know that the first two or three places are probably going to be taken by people who are also skating (and in some cases - based on their past history - getting a medal) in the championship event. It's really common in gold ladies.I see your point, but that doesn't always happen. Ice is slippery, and you never know what kind of performance someone is going to put out at that particular moment. IIRC, the past few years, the skaters in both Open and Champ finished all over the place. And if you restrict Open to only those who didn't qualify for Champ, you can still get Champ-level skaters that, for whatever reason, couldn't go to Sectionals (or went and had a really bad skate).

Skate@Delaware

04-22-2009, 06:44 AM

Back 3? I just passed FS3 and there was no back 3. The FS4 dance sequence has them.

ITA on the change-foot spin, that one element kept me at FS2 for an extra year.

Yeah, my coach likes to double up on things....and have me work on everything at once. I have yet to master the change-foot spin and keep falling on the back 3's......:giveup:

sk8er1964

04-22-2009, 08:59 AM

I see your point, but that doesn't always happen. Ice is slippery, and you never know what kind of performance someone is going to put out at that particular moment. IIRC, the past few years, the skaters in both Open and Champ finished all over the place. And if you restrict Open to only those who didn't qualify for Champ, you can still get Champ-level skaters that, for whatever reason, couldn't go to Sectionals (or went and had a really bad skate).

Ice is slippery for everyone, and also someone could have the performance of their lives. It's not about those two extremes, rather the averages. Chances are very good that if you qualified, you are skating at a higher level (that year) than the other skaters who did not.

doubletoe

04-25-2009, 12:06 AM

Doubletoe - if you've not encountered returning skaters in your fs that belong at another level then you're very fortunate. I got pretty tired of seeing it. I'm happy to have returning skaters compete, but at the right level. I have seen so many of my friends stop competing because of this.

Whenever I encounter someone who--at first glance--appears to be "sandbagging", I make it a point to ask her about her skating history. Invariably, there is a good reason why she hasn't tested up. Usually, it's one of these:
(1) never competed before and has no idea how she will do
(2) has tried to pass the test to move up but there's one element on it that is preventing her (sometimes it's the MIF test)
(3) has a coach who has never coached adults before and thinks everyone competes way above test level
After the first season, those who fall into the (1) and (2) categories almost always move up. In the rare instance that one doesn't, she doesn't tend to have very many friends. . .

doubletoe

04-25-2009, 12:11 AM

I see your point, but that doesn't always happen. Ice is slippery, and you never know what kind of performance someone is going to put out at that particular moment. IIRC, the past few years, the skaters in both Open and Champ finished all over the place. And if you restrict Open to only those who didn't qualify for Champ, you can still get Champ-level skaters that, for whatever reason, couldn't go to Sectionals (or went and had a really bad skate).

And now that there's a different judging system at Nationals than Sectionals, it is TRULY all over the place! Those who qualified for the Championship events were those who placed well under 6.0 at Sectionals. Under 6.0, spins, footwork and spirals are not as well rewarded and underrotated jumps are not as severely penalized. They may go to Nationals and do not do well at all under IJS.

singerskates

04-25-2009, 01:40 AM

Yes, not every adult wants to (or can) go to AN, for a variety of reasons. I hope 'kid' club comps don't start eliminating adult events. At the same time, though, people need to support them. Several club comps in my area used to attract good numbers of adults (well, enough so that not everyone got a medal, lol) but they aren't attracting the adult entrants they used to. I hear a lot of adult skaters saying that they only want to support all-adult comps, and in my area, there are several opportunities for that, but it would also be nice to have additional options, esp if one of the adult comps doesn't work out timewise.

For someone like me who doesn't plan on going to AN in the foreseeable future, it would be nice to have some summer comp opportunities, but adults that have just been to AN are still recovering from their past season so aren't ready to compete yet. So comps don't get enough entrants in the adult events to have a comp, and then stop offering adult events altogether.

Right now, though, the economy is probably having a large affect on comp numbers, both adult and kid. It looks like AN numbers are down a bit this year. I suspect it's going to be a tough summer for clubs hosting comps. The fact that entry fees (for both IJS and 6.0 events) have gone up across the board doesn't make it easier.

Yeah, the economy is really hitting us hard now for those of us adult skaters who use to cross boarder compete in the US who are from Canada. The hikes in the entry fees can be a killer when you compound it with the exchange rate.

As far as competing against those who have skated as children/teens feeling stomped on, well, you wouldn't feel that way if you had a way to compete against yourselves. IJS, which is like our Canadian CPC and the ISU COP, is the ticket that can allow for adult skaters, be they adult onset skaters, returning skaters who took learned to skate as a child, returning skaters who got upto the first few single jumps and a forward basic upright spin and also upto and including returning skaters who use to do those double and maybe triple jumps, to compete against themselves. How? Each time a skater competes in CPC here in Canada, they get a record of what & how they skated showing jumps, spins, footwork and/or spiral sequence including the GOE for each element and what their PCS were. Skaters and coaches can compare from one competition to the next the results. This happened for me at 2007 Adult Canadians all events including Adult Bronze FS were marked with CPC. Then the next year I was marked again under CPC. I could see that even though I didn't move much in the standings against my competitors, I improved immensely from 2007 to 2008. As of now, I hear rumblings that CPC may be used for all competitions and events in Canada by the end of 2010. I know for certain that at our Skate Canada WO Boston Pizza StarSkate Sectional where there are adult events, adults will be marked using CPC for the first time. This will give us Canadian WOS adult skaters a gage as to how we are doing competitively. This way when we go to Adult Canadians it won't be the first time competing with CPC and we'll have some time to tune our programs for CPC before Adult Canadians. I hope that my US adult skater friends including those in PreBronze FS have the chance to be marked under IJS before heading to the US Adult Nationals. After all, it's just not fair if we north of the US border do better at the ISU Adult Invitational (our Adult Worlds) because we've had more time to train our programs for COP.

skaternum

04-26-2009, 04:26 PM

After the first season, those who fall into the (1) and (2) categories almost always move up.

To be replaced by next year's crop of returning skaters, which we all agree is growing. So every year, the Silver adult onset skaters get a fresh batch of beat downs. :lol:

jazzpants

05-02-2009, 01:36 PM

Bumpity bump...

I see from Stormy's FB status that Adult Moves the Field have passed, but IJS at Adults Sectionals DID NOT PASS!!!

MITF was a no brainer. It's the Adults Sectional that i see a debate about. Some people are still against having IJS altogether. Others are pro-IJS for Sectionals. (I like the focus in training. I don't see the point of training for 6.0 and then redoing the program for AN. It already got one skater that I know off in the butt.) My guess is that the cost of implementing IJS is too costly at a Sectional event??? :??

CoachPA

05-02-2009, 02:06 PM

Anyone up at GC who can give us some details on what's been going on (passing, not passing, other important details, etc.)?

jenlyon60

05-02-2009, 04:39 PM

To do IJS at Adult sectionals would require the LOC to bring in 3-5 extra officals (1-2 Tech controllers, unless there is a judge who is also an appointed tech controller, plus 2-4 tech specialists).... so minimum 3 extra bodies, maximum 6 extra bodies. How many needed would depend on the number of competitors in the IJS events.

Figure approximately $75-$100/night for hotel rooms for the extra officials... For a 2 day competition that's probably an average of 3 nights per official, so $675-$1800 extra in lodging costs.

If the LOC has to fly in the tech panel, figure a minimum of approximately $250-$300 in airfare per official, plus other reimbursable travel expenses--probably closer to $300-$350 per official--a range of $900 to $2100 for reimbursable traveling costs.

Cost for renting an IJS system is approximately $1000 to $1500 unless the LOC or a neighboring club has an IJS system or chooses to do paper IJS.

Cost for extra ice will depend on how many competitors register for the IJS events. That could be as little as 10 extra minutes or up to 30 to 60 extra minutes. So an average of somewhere in the $30-$300 range.

Cost to feed the extra officials: for a 2 day competition probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $60-70.

Add up these costs and you get a guestimate of about $2500 to $5700 (the high side is probably very high, but represents a worse case scenario... high travel & lodging costs, max number of tech panel, lots of extra ice time needed).

The delta in cost per probable IJS competitor would be enormous... the delta in expected entry fee cost across all competitors at an Adult Sectional would probably still be quite substantial.

I would have to collect entry numbers etc. to make this a more accurate estimate, but these estimates are based on the numbers my club is using to prepare a budget for the summer IJS competition we're hosting.

Just some food for thought.

Bumpity bump...

I see from Stormy's FB status that Adult Moves the Field have passed, but IJS at Adults Sectionals DID NOT PASS!!!

MITF was a no brainer. It's the Adults Sectional that i see a debate about. Some people are still against having IJS altogether. Others are pro-IJS for Sectionals. (I like the focus in training. I don't see the point of training for 6.0 and then redoing the program for AN. It already got one skater that I know off in the butt.) My guess is that the cost of implementing IJS is too costly at a Sectional event??? :??

Skittl1321

05-02-2009, 05:03 PM

I figured that would fail because of cost.

But I really liked your post outlining the potential cost, and probably just because you used the word delta instead of change :)

Time to work on the new moves! 8-step mohawk is 1/3 shorter now, that can only be a good thing! (Though I haven't figured out yet how to make it into a figure 8 pattern...)

Debbie S

05-02-2009, 06:12 PM

8-step mohawk is 1/3 shorter now, that can only be a good thing! (Though I haven't figured out yet how to make it into a figure 8 pattern...)Can Stormy or vesperholly (or someone else who's at GC) confirm if the implementation date for all MIF changes is now Sept 2010? A post on another board indicated that in the Thurs meeting, the committee changed the proposal after the attendees expressed the opinion that one date for all changes would be best.

Re the IJS costs,. what is the current cost for adult skaters to enter Sectionals vs the cost for the kids to enter IJS events at Regionals? I'm curious. If the costs to competitors are comparable, it seems that Sectionals LOC's have no reason not to be able to use IJS for Gold and Masters, at least for the Champ events. If Regionals LOC's can do it for the kids....

Stormy

05-02-2009, 06:25 PM

Yes all moves are sept 2010. Will write more tomorrow, I am posting this from my iPod. But yes sept 2010 for every level.

Skittl1321

05-02-2009, 06:34 PM

If Regionals LOC's can do it for the kids....

I think the number of entries also makes a difference. I might be mistaken, but it seems like regionals would have many more entries. Although IJS events may not, the cost can be dispersed among non-qualifying events too.

Terri C

05-02-2009, 08:09 PM

Re the IJS costs,. what is the current cost for adult skaters to enter Sectionals vs the cost for the kids to enter IJS events at Regionals? I'm curious. If the costs to competitors are comparable, it seems that Sectionals LOC's have no reason not to be able to use IJS for Gold and Masters, at least for the Champ events. If Regionals LOC's can do it for the kids....

Maybe because there are more skaters at standard track Regionals than at Adult Sectionals??
While I disagree with the result, can LOC's of Adult Sectional competitions at least be allowed to have IJS critiques for the Gold and above events, so that those skaters can adequately prepare for AN? Not every adult skater has a Technical Specialist right around the corner!

Terri C

05-02-2009, 08:22 PM

saras

05-02-2009, 08:36 PM

While I disagree with the result, can LOC's of Adult Sectional competitions at least be allowed to have IJS critiques for the Gold and above events, so that those skaters can adequately prepare for AN? Not every adult skater has a Technical Specialist right around the corner!

this is a huge point - there are loads of areas where there are not available Tech Specialists - nor are there many local competitions that use IJS (I define "local" as within a 2 hour drive), even IF they had enough adults for an event, or heck, even if they offered a one-skater exhibition with an IJS critique at a competition where they're using IJS for standard track events. Every other year, there's a competition about an hour and a half from me that used IJS last time for the standard track, and after me asking, they ran the Adult Gold event with IJS too. There were luckily two entrants. But to get an IJS "viewing" of my skating once every two years outside of AN? It's really not enough.

Having IJS critiques at Sectionals makes a load of sense, and should be allowed.

Sara

jazzpants

05-02-2009, 09:38 PM

Skittl and Jskater - PLEASE don't give up on the Bronze FS test just because of the sitspin!! I have seen adults pass this test with barely a squatting position because the overall quality of their program was good enough to satisfy the judges.

Hear, hear, doubletoe!! If I can pass this test, which I did about a year ago (May 14 will be the one year anniversary) on the SEVENTH try- then anyone can!!

Yup! Hear, hear too!!! I passed my Bronze FS test back on my 38th b-day two footed a loop landing and they said on my test notes that my sit spins need to be lower. (It's true, but I'm working on it. It's not consistent yet, which is why it didn't make it to Grand Rapids this year.) But I got the rest of the test dead on and they passed me on the presentation marks.

It was a close call though! I BARELY passed and I was NOT expecting to pass when I went in on my b-day. I took it so my primary coach would stop nagging me to take the test and humor him (and if I had had done things HIS way, I would have taken the test on the Labor Day test session so he can hurry up and work on my technical program for AN 07 in Chicago instead of me making my AN debut the following year at Lake Placid, even though it was really a more appropriate place to make the debut!!! :roll: )

So if anything, I think you should go thru a critique with a judge and see what happens. Won't hurt... you're not really getting tested. Other solution... if your test sessions are often (like monthly) and it's not expensive, go ahead and the test and use the test results as a "critique" to see where you are.

(I still can't believe I just did my SECOND AN!!! Unbelieveable!!! 8O And I secretly hope the Chicago LOC would make another bid for AN so I would get to visit Chicago, the city (and not just the O'Hare airport!!! :P )

Skittl1321

05-02-2009, 09:43 PM

So if anything, I think you should go thru a critique with a judge and see what happens.

Some what relevant to the IJS discussion. Some of us don't live in areas where there are judges! I think there are only a couple in the state, as I know that almost all the ones our club uses for tests or competitions are from out of state.

A critique isn't possible! I'm willing to fail a test as a critique, but I've got to be close, or my coach won't allow it.

Debbie S

05-02-2009, 09:49 PM

Maybe because there are more skaters at standard track Regionals than at Adult Sectionals??
Well, yes, more entrants paying IJS entry fees does give more money to the LOC to help them meet their costs, but with more entrants comes higher ice time fees for the comp. So the overall cost for ice time, and food and lodging for judges and tech panelists, is higher for Regionals b/c of the length and numbers.

Jen's analysis was very informative, but I'm wondering what kind of specific analysis (using actual entry numbers) was done for Sectionals and presented at GC.

I think IJS critiques for Gold and Masters competitors is a good idea if they aren't going to use IJS in the judging.

RachelSk8er

05-02-2009, 10:20 PM

Yes all moves are sept 2010. Will write more tomorrow, I am posting this from my iPod. But yes sept 2010 for every level.

I'm glad there is more time from the training of coaches and judges standpoint, as well as for people currently working on tests to get through them...but I don't see why the serpentine pattern on novice couldn't be done right away. It doesn't change the test a whole lot in terms of a skater, coaches or officials having to learn anything new, it just makes the test a whole lot shorter--thus cheaper for the club (and makes an overly lengthy test easier on the skater). If you're doing 4 novice tests on a test session, that's a lot of time dedicated to those moves you're freeing up.

twokidsskatemom

05-02-2009, 10:23 PM

this is a huge point - there are loads of areas where there are not available Tech Specialists - nor are there many local competitions that use IJS (I define "local" as within a 2 hour drive), even IF they had enough adults for an event, or heck, even if they offered a one-skater exhibition with an IJS critique at a competition where they're using IJS for standard track events. Every other year, there's a competition about an hour and a half from me that used IJS last time for the standard track, and after me asking, they ran the Adult Gold event with IJS too. There were luckily two entrants. But to get an IJS "viewing" of my skating once every two years outside of AN? It's really not enough.

Having IJS critiques at Sectionals makes a load of sense, and should be allowed.

Sara
The issue isnt adults. The issue is the IJS costs a fortune to run.Case in point, we live in a state that now has only ONE comp.Local clubs have chosen to not run IJS comps this year.So they kids who want to go to regionals have one shot before going to regionals unless they want to travel outside to compete.We cant even drive to a comp that does IJS, even if it was a long drive.
I am sorry but its not just adults, its the system.

twokidsskatemom

05-02-2009, 10:29 PM

Some what relevant to the IJS discussion. Some of us don't live in areas where there are judges! I think there are only a couple in the state, as I know that almost all the ones our club uses for tests or competitions are from out of state.

A critique isn't possible! I'm willing to fail a test as a critique, but I've got to be close, or my coach won't allow it.

That is all we are having this year in state, but for one real comp in August. We are driving around 7 hours next weekened for a critque.Its cheaper to run so that is what the clubs are offerering. This is our first year of going to regionals and they cant go just with one comp all year.I dont think any of you have higher travel costs than we do!

TreSk8sAZ

05-02-2009, 11:11 PM

That is all we are having this year in state, but for one real comp in August. We are driving around 7 hours next weekened for a critque.Its cheaper to run so that is what the clubs are offerering. This is our first year of going to regionals and they cant go just with one comp all year.I dont think any of you have higher travel costs than we do!

Which is why we see all the AK skaters come down to AZ over the summer - we've all gotten to know quite a few because of Fiesta Skate and Cactus Classic, among others. But yes, you guys have it rough, though there are other states that have similar problems with lack of judging and lack of ice rinks (especially year-round ones) in general.

No matter what, I can understand the initiative not passing. It is expensive, especially for the clubs who always seem to have qualifying comps multiple years and then add Adult Sectionals as well b/c no other clubs bid. Which is a huge problem!

Any reports on the vocal/lyric allowance that passed for 6.0 events? What is it all about? How is it being used? I just don't get allowing vocals in FS (technical) programs under 6.0 when there are already artistic events.

AgnesNitt

05-02-2009, 11:25 PM

Well, yes, more entrants paying IJS entry fees does give more money to the LOC to help them meet their costs, but with more entrants comes higher ice time fees for the comp. So the overall cost for ice time, and food and lodging for judges and tech panelists, is higher for Regionals b/c of the length and numbers.

This could be optimized by treating it as a linear programming problem. Unfortunately, if the answer came back that costs increased faster than income, it wouldn't make any difference. However, it would tell you at what number you need to cap your participants as a way to limit your losses.

saras

05-03-2009, 06:15 AM

The issue isnt adults. The issue is the IJS costs a fortune to run.Case in point, we live in a state that now has only ONE comp.Local clubs have chosen to not run IJS comps this year.So they kids who want to go to regionals have one shot before going to regionals unless they want to travel outside to compete.We cant even drive to a comp that does IJS, even if it was a long drive.
I am sorry but its not just adults, its the system.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it's only adults vs. the system. I wasn't anyway.

Though IJS critiques have been specifically *disallowed* from occurring at Adult Sectionals - when cost is not the issue. Costs for a critique are vastly different from those at a competition (computer costs virtually go away; those who want critiques can pay for the lodging expenses etc; ice time is irrelevant as a video of the competition performance can be used).

I get that this issue (allowing critiques at Sectionals or any other competition for that matter) was in no way on deck at Governing Council.

Skittl1321

05-03-2009, 07:46 AM

Any reports on the vocal/lyric allowance that passed for 6.0 events? What is it all about? How is it being used? I just don't get allowing vocals in FS (technical) programs under 6.0 when there are already artistic events.

Really? I never even saw that one. I think that's fantastic.
A lot of the kids at our rink just aren't interested in non-vocal programs. It's a huge expense or at least a big hassle to get music cut. I think 6.0 entries will go up with vocal music allowed. It will be easier to cut a program from "modern" music.

flying~camel

05-03-2009, 08:33 AM

Any reports on the vocal/lyric allowance that passed for 6.0 events? What is it all about? How is it being used? I just don't get allowing vocals in FS (technical) programs under 6.0 when there are already artistic events.

I heard that it passed, but I don't understand the logic, either.

I'll be judged under 6.0 for the foreseeable future and am planning on keeping my freeskate music lyric-less.

mdvask8r

05-03-2009, 08:38 AM

I've never undrestood why vocals were disallowed in the first place. What was the reason for the rule?

Stormy

05-03-2009, 09:26 AM

mdvask8r

05-03-2009, 09:38 AM

Distracting? umm . . . but does anyone know the official reason for disallowing vocals? I've been asking this question for several years and no one has ever been able to answer it. Was there discussion at GC?

Isk8NYC

05-03-2009, 09:55 AM

On one hand, allowing vocals makes music selection easier. If you want to skate to "Living La Vida Loca" you can use the original recording without searching for an karaoke or instrumental version. Probably less expensive, but maybe not.

The lyrics sort of worry me. Think of the song "1985" which one of my kids wanted to skate to; one of the lines is "..she was gonna shake her a$$ on the hood of White Snake's car." That's inappropriate for an under-10 skater as well as the other competitors. You can get "sanitized" versions of some songs, including this one, by buying the Radio Disney versions, but a judge who knows the original lyrics might not realize you had a sanitized version.

It's the same situation as looking for one without vocals.

Perhaps that's why vocals were disallowed in the first place - people were concerned about what type of vocals the skaters would use or that lyrics in one language would mean something else in a different language and thus offend someone on the international level. (Which explains the limit)

Just a guess.

Skittl1321

05-03-2009, 10:02 AM

But lyrics are allowed in dance and synchro. Why would that be any different as far as offensive choices are concerned?

Isk8NYC

05-03-2009, 10:06 AM

I don't feel vocals have a place in competitve skating (dance and synchro excluded). That's what we have interp and showcase for. Lyrics are distracting in a competitive program. If you're absolutely hell bent on skating with lyrics, do showcase, do inter, or do ISI.I see what you're saying: I choreograph show programs (with lyrics) differently than competition programs (no vocals), interpreting the song's phrases. For example, "Daydream Believer" has a line about "wanting sunshine, getting rain." I had my show student raise her arms to make a sun, then drop them down to indicate rain. The audience loved the move. In a program without lyrics, that would make no sense at all, lol.

But, it could be a nice stepping stone for the lower-level skaters to learn movement and music. Many skate competitions more than shows, and interp is often pushed aside to save money or focus on the freestyle event. The downside is that this could reduce the number of skaters entering interp if they were doing that event because they loved the song.

That was presented as new business at the board of directors meeting, and voted on as one of the very last issues at the general meeting. I was shocked it passed with as many votes as it did. Did anyone outside of GC know it was even up for a vote?I had no idea, I would have liked to chime in on this issue since all of my private students are Preliminary or lower.

Isk8NYC

05-03-2009, 10:10 AM

But lyrics are allowed in dance and synchro. Why would that be any different as far as offensive choices are concerned?I don't recall Ice Dancing allowing lyrics in the 1980's, so I think a change was made to the rules. Synchro became much more organized in the last 15 years, so I assume they also have rules in place.

Are there rules governing the choice of lyrics in Synchro and Ice Dancing?
Were similar restrictions included in this new Singles change?

mdvask8r

05-03-2009, 10:33 AM

Screening out songs w/inappropriate lyrics is managed just fine by coaches and parents -- they recognize what might be offensive and avoid it rather than risk turning off the judges or the audience. If this was the original reason for the rule, perhaps it has finally been realized that it is not USFSs place to be the lyrics police.
That said, I just don't believe this was the original reason for the rule. I'll keep digging! If anyone else finds more info please post it.

jazzpants

05-03-2009, 11:30 AM

Vocals, eh? I'd be annoyed about the constant parade of Disney and Hannah Montana music that's coming...:P :lol:

Otherwise, as long as the kids' parents (or adult skater) and coaches use their good judgement in picking appropriate music, I don't see a problem with it. I mean you still have to do all those required elements properly, so you're not left with a lot of time for interpretation of music anyway. (Well, for me anyway! I wasn't allowed a lot of time for interp in my technical program. It was constant "Go Go Go!!! Push Push Push!!!")

Even though I am on hiatus from competing, I'm now faced with having to pick new music again for my TECHNICAL. What perfect timing to know that I now have more music options! :D. (Of course, I still have trouble finding music for the dress I bought LAST YEAR at AN! (No hurry though since I'm not competing!). And part of me wants to do a big band number as a homage to my aging 'rent-in-laws! Which would NOT go with the dress I bought!)

Skate@Delaware

05-03-2009, 12:44 PM

Vocals, eh? I'd be annoyed about the constant parade of Disney and Hannah Montana music that's coming...:P :lol:

You need to attend an ISI comp.....that is pretty much ALL you hear at the lower levels!!!! 8O sort of numbing after a while, especially if ALL the kids at your rink chose the same music for THEIRS!

Mel On Ice

05-03-2009, 12:46 PM

or basic skills

twokidsskatemom

05-03-2009, 12:46 PM

Yes, the vocal music was passed. It's for up to and including Intermediate, under 6.0 only. It does include Adults. Personally, I was very against it. I don't feel vocals have a place in competitve skating (dance and synchro excluded). That's what we have interp and showcase for. Lyrics are distracting in a competitive program. If you're absolutely hell bent on skating with lyrics, do showcase, do inter, or do ISI.

That was presented as new business at the board of directors meeting, and voted on as one of the very last issues at the general meeting. I was shocked it passed with as many votes as it did. Did anyone outside of GC know it was even up for a vote?
I never heard or read anything about the vocal issue until now.I am confused if its allowed up to intemed under 6.0.What would be the reasoning since intemed should be under IJS?Even if local comps didnt run IJS, if the skater went to a comp that was under IJS they would have to change the music.

Skittl1321

05-03-2009, 12:57 PM

I never heard or read anything about the vocal issue until now.I am confused if its allowed up to intemed under 6.0.What would be the reasoning since intemed should be under IJS?Even if local comps didnt run IJS, if the skater went to a comp that was under IJS they would have to change the music.

Then skaters who compete under IJS should think about that when they pick their music. But many skaters will never ever compete under IJS, so it's a non-issue.

twokidsskatemom

05-03-2009, 01:08 PM

Then skaters who compete under IJS should think about that when they pick their music. But many skaters will never ever compete under IJS, so it's a non-issue.
Yes, the skaters below pre juv dont have an issue. But at juv and above, most comps are under IJS. Not all, and I guess if you know you are only doing comp whatever and they arent using IJS that would be ok.I know some comps are under IJS even at pre pre level so that would be a concern.I think I read that even the regionals on the west coast offered IJS at low levels.I think fiesta skate in az was under IJS for lower levels as well. Unless you know what comps and what rules those comps are using I can see skaters running into problems.

That is why comps have artistic, and showcase programs.

Hannahclear

05-03-2009, 01:11 PM

Wow, the vocals thing really surprises me. I can't say I'm really fond of the idea. How does this affect interpretive events? It's kind of ironic, as I just picked a song for my first interpretive program. I don't plan on using lyrics for a competitive or test program. Maybe it will be one of those things that the judges frown upon, even if it's allowed.

RachelSk8er

05-03-2009, 01:28 PM

I don't recall Ice Dancing allowing lyrics in the 1980's, so I think a change was made to the rules. Synchro became much more organized in the last 15 years, so I assume they also have rules in place.

Are there rules governing the choice of lyrics in Synchro and Ice Dancing?
Were similar restrictions included in this new Singles change?

Synchro has gone back and forth. Lyrics were allowed at all levels prior to about 1993. Then junior and senior were not allowed lyrics (possibly because around this time int'l competition was starting and the ISU did not allow it). All other levels were allowed lyrics the entire time as far as I know (not too familiar with what went on pre-1990 though...but I did compete juv, int and novice when I was young and we def had lyrics in some of our programs). Then in 2004 (give or take a year, don't remember exactly) all levels were allowed lyrics again. I'm guessing again that this correlates with a change in ISU rules that govern junior/senior.

Wait...so we're allowed lyrics now for adult at the lower levels!? I'm not sure how I feel about that. One positive that re-allowing lyrics for junior/senior synchro did have is that it diversified programs more (especially short programs with all the same elements in each program, they became much more of a program with some entertainment value than the boredom that they mostly were with instrumental music). It also kept programs a little more diverse when IJS was implemented. But freestyle doesn't see that problem nearly as much as synchro could...particularly under 6.0. It's not going to diversify IJS programs at all since it's not allowed there. Maybe on the plus side, we won't see every other person skating to Bond, East of Eden, or whatever else becomes popular because there will be so much to choose from. But then again, all the dance teams on my dance session are skating to vocal music that is way overused in dance and synchro already so that pretty much blows that theory (one Bolero track from Moulin Rouge--not vocal but still overused, one Tango de Roxanne, one Michael Buble medley...could the coaches be a little more creative, please?)

I think vocals really takes away some of the challenge of picking, cutting, choreographing, and expressing music and doing it all well. For example, in finding my new music for this year, after 2 yrs of a more serious program, the goal was something fun/flirty (similar to what I'd pick for interp) that I could have a good time with and hopefully that would relax me. I could have easily picked a vocal song I liked, but instead I found an instrumental adaptation of some popular songs.

I think as far as where interp belongs, that's still going to appeal to the people who aren't as strong as spinning and jumping (or are ice dancers who don't jump at all), or the people who really want to do outrageous things. I see numbers in light entertainment/comedy therefore staying the same, but the artistic/dramatic numbers could drop a little if people can go ahead and do that with their free programs. Masters interp numbers probably won't be affected though, since the high freestylers in masters (as opposed to gold skaters and others put there d/t dance test levels who may compete lower freestyle levels) still can't use lyrics.

And there are some people who are notorious for bad music choices. I dread hearing what they'll come up with for freestyle. I think we should start a list of songs that need to be flat out BANNED! :)

Debbie S

05-03-2009, 01:36 PM

I never heard or read anything about the vocal issue until now.I am confused if its allowed up to intemed under 6.0.What would be the reasoning since intemed should be under IJS?Test Track FS events are judged under 6.0. I assume it's those events the lyrics rule is aimed at. Although, there are Test Track events offered up through Senior - if there is no problem with Juv and Int Test Track skaters using lyrics, why not just allow it all the way up?

twokidsskatemom

05-03-2009, 01:47 PM

Test Track FS events are judged under 6.0. I assume it's those events the lyrics rule is aimed at. Although, there are Test Track events offered up through Senior - if there is no problem with Juv and Int Test Track skaters using lyrics, why not just allow it all the way up?
The problem would lie in the fact that you would have to then pick to be either a test skater or a well balanced skater when you pick your music. Or pick two pieces of music.Skaters can change for each comp they do.
Maybe they will add it for novice and above after trying it out?

Debbie S

05-03-2009, 02:29 PM

The problem would lie in the fact that you would have to then pick to be either a test skater or a well balanced skater when you pick your music. The kids I skate with that do Test Track or Open Juv (which I guess is also covered by the lyrics rule) have already decided that they will not compete under IJS. Not every kid wants to compete at Regionals and has the ability to be competitive in IJS - that's why Test Track was created. If you start skating at 11 or 12, have an axel and 1 or 2 doubles at age 16, you'd rather compete against kids your own age than against younger ones in Pre-Juv and below. Since skaters in this category wouldn't be competitive in IJS Intermediate and up, they do Test Track events, Artistic/Showcase, or synchro.

In some cases, a skater might compete Open Juv for a year and if they get enough doubles to be competitive in Int, they'll do that the following season, but they'd get a new program for that anyway.

twokidsskatemom

05-03-2009, 02:40 PM

RachelSk8er

05-03-2009, 03:30 PM

The kids I skate with that do Test Track or Open Juv (which I guess is also covered by the lyrics rule) have already decided that they will not compete under IJS. Not every kid wants to compete at Regionals and has the ability to be competitive in IJS - that's why Test Track was created.

Test track wasn't created for kids who can't be "competitive" under IJS, it was created to help with the disparity between test levels and what elite skaters truly need to be competitive at a given level, and to address different goals that skaters have (competing at a high level v. passing tests). That way, at juvenile, a kid whose highest jump is an axel won't be blown away by kids doing double lutzes. But that same kid with an axel at juvenile can keep going on and getting their tests if that's their goal, and compete test track and be competitive there. Under IJS though, the kid who goes out with just a clean axel can still do well, because you are rewarded for what you complete and what you do well, whereas 6.0 tends to be more subjective in awarding attempts. I saw a kid in regular juv at a local competition here go out and skate a clean program with an axel and a double toe and place high because she skated clean and everyone else fell on or cheated double flips and double lutzes.

Test track here at the higher levels is judged under IJS too at juv and above...that might be up to the LOC but at least it was at my club's competition a few months ago. I guess that poses a problem if use of IJS is not consistent because you may need a non-lyric program if you have one with lyrics for non-IJS...

Maybe they will add it for novice and above after trying it out?
Maybe for test track only. Novice (like jr and sr) is governed by ISU rules and so you can't do it for competitive track. Kids who are going to regionals, sectionals, and nationals with the possibility of qualifying for an international (although those kids are very few) have to abide by international rules. Maybe for local competitions that are small and test track and competitive get meshed together you can overlook the fact that some skaters have lyrics and some don't (not all test track kids would even have lyrics), but as a whole you can't allow it for novice.

Debbie S

05-03-2009, 03:44 PM

Test track wasn't created for kids who can't be "competitive" under IJS, it was created to help with the disparity between test levels and what elite skaters truly need to be competitive at a given level, and to address different goals that skaters have (competing at a high level v. passing tests). That way, at juvenile, a kid whose highest jump is an axel won't be blown away by kids doing double lutzes. But that same kid with an axel at juvenile can keep going on and getting their tests if that's their goal, and compete test track and be competitive there.Yes, that's what I was saying - sorry if it wasn't clear. The idea behind Test Track (at least, according to what I read at the time it was created) was to encourage kids to keep testing by creating a comp system where they could be competitive. I know kids who are working on higher level tests b/c they want to pass the test, but wouldn't be competitive in IJS - and I mean in spins, spirals, and footwork in addition to jumps. Not everyone can do Biellmanns, Y/I positions, twisty sit and layback spins, change edges mid-spin, move their arms and upper body wildly during footwork, etc. Test Track gives them an opportunity to continue to compete, if they want.

Test track here at the higher levels is judged under IJS too at juv and above...that might be up to the LOC but at least it was at my club's competition a few months ago. I guess that poses a problem if use of IJS is not consistent because you may need a non-lyric program if you have one with lyrics for non-IJS...That's interesting. In my area, all comps use 6.0 for Test Track events. I don't think using IJS for these levels is a good idea, b/c, as I stated above and in my previous post, most kids doing Test Track wouldn't be competitive in IJS and given that they're really on a different path than skaters at IJS events (i.e. not looking to Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals and int'l comps one day), it makes no sense to use that judging system.

Kim to the Max

05-03-2009, 04:21 PM

I think we should start a list of songs that need to be flat out BANNED! :)

Haha!! One of my friends and I have a list (not documented anywhere) of music that is instrumental and vocal for both freestyle and synchro that needs to be retired...we are sick of hearing it!! For example, Mama Mia and Celine Dion for synchro need to GO!! Heard those one too many times this season...

jenlyon60

05-03-2009, 04:24 PM

Test Track FS events are judged under 6.0. I assume it's those events the lyrics rule is aimed at. Although, there are Test Track events offered up through Senior - if there is no problem with Juv and Int Test Track skaters using lyrics, why not just allow it all the way up?

ISU currently doesn't allow lyrics for singles/pairs (don't know the ISU rules for synchro). Putting the ceiling at Intermediate and/or 6.0 scoring helps ensure that standard track skaters in levels where there's an ISU level (Novice, Junior, Senior) who have the possibility (although it might be slim to none) to skate internationally won't get hit with a scoring penalty for improper music.

vesperholly

05-03-2009, 04:27 PM

Maybe for test track only. Novice (like jr and sr) is governed by ISU rules and so you can't do it for competitive track.
The ISU does not govern competitions held by the USFSA or its member clubs for their members, including Nationals.

Do you mean specifically IJS rules?

phoenix

05-03-2009, 04:36 PM

The ISU does not govern competitions held by the USFSA or its member clubs for their members, including Nationals.

Do you mean specifically IJS rules?

I think her point was, if you skate novice & up, and have even the slightest chance of being given an international assignment, you'd need to set your program to ISU rules.

icedancer2

05-03-2009, 06:52 PM

I'm confused about this one - about letting judges teach group lessons: is it approved or not? This is what I read on a blog that was covering GC:

323 -Amend rule JR 4.08 (page 74 Rulebook) to allow appointed judges to teach skaters (group lessons) who have not passed any U.S. Figure Skating tests as part of a learn-to-skate or basic skills, and/or group lessons program while maintaining their eligibility to participate as a U.S. Figure Skating judge. Wanted to add (group lessons), but everyone felt it was redundent. DEFEATED and remains as approved by the board.

Was it defeated or approved? (Or do I just have to wait until the rulebook comes out??)

vesperholly

05-03-2009, 08:30 PM

RachelSk8er

05-03-2009, 09:05 PM

Haha!! One of my friends and I have a list (not documented anywhere) of music that is instrumental and vocal for both freestyle and synchro that needs to be retired...we are sick of hearing it!! For example, Mama Mia and Celine Dion for synchro need to GO!! Heard those one too many times this season...

Celine Dion is the TOP of the "music to be banned under new lyric rules" list. As is Michael Buble, and the soundtracks from Chicago and Moulin Rouge.

One thing I realized flipping through my iPod today is that this does mean all the music I thought of using for interp but couldn't get down to a 1:40 cut I liked now can be used for freestyle...I had the next 3 free programs (potentially 6 yrs worth if I keep a program 2 yrs) planned, but the list has now grown considerably. And now I no longer have to remove some of the faint whispering in a few spots of a piece I wanted to use for 2012-ish.

TreSk8sAZ

05-03-2009, 09:11 PM

RachelSk8er

05-03-2009, 09:21 PM

Here's my issue with the lyrics in freeskate thing. So in a freeskate there is the element scoring and the music/interpretation/artistic score. If there are lyrics, how does that change anything from artistic other than you have a technical element score as well? Are people with lyrics going to be able to get a higher score because they have lyrics and there is a concrete way of interpreting it or adding the artistic part versus someone who has a classical piece that is more subjective in its interpretation? I just see the potential for too much overlap between the artistic and freeskate programs now. Yes, there will be more emphasis on the skating itself and the technical elements. But there are close calls and it shouldn't be lyrics and the artistic interpretation of those lyrics that makes the difference.

I don't see that as a whole lot different than with instrumental music--some people pick something that can really be interpreted. Swing/big band type music is always popular, as is Spanish music, Amy Entwistle and Karissa Fitzgerald both had great African themed programs that they really worked in terms of costume and choreography, and then you have the people who do more traditional classical music.

Having lyrics versus not doesn't really seem to make much of a difference in ice dancing or synchro where there is always a mix of couples/teams doing instrumental music and more "traditional" programs and couples/teams coming on the ice skating to music with lyrics and something a little more modern and off the wall.

I actually think it could have an adverse effect. People might get lazy because they have lyrics and don't think they need to be as creative in terms of interpretation.

Cutting music with lyrics is sometimes more difficult, too.

jazzpants

05-03-2009, 09:47 PM

Celine Dion is the TOP of the "music to be banned under new lyric rules" list.ESPECIALLY "My Heart Will Go On" from Titanic!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Cheers,
jazzpants, who almost walked out of a local supermarket this afternoon empty handed b/c Celine's "My Heart Will Go On" was playing in the background!!! BARF city!!! :roll: :P :lol:

Isk8NYC

05-03-2009, 09:50 PM

*Prays* Please, no "Sweet Home Alabama" programs. *shudders*

RachelSk8er

05-04-2009, 07:09 AM

ESPECIALLY "My Heart Will Go On" from Titanic!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Cheers,
jazzpants, who almost walked out of a local supermarket this afternoon empty handed b/c Celine's "My Heart Will Go On" was playing in the background!!! BARF city!!! :roll: :P :lol:

REALLY not looking forward to the onslaught of High School Musical, Hannah Montana, Jonas Brothers and other awful teeny bopper stuff that becomes cool. Coaches who let their kids use that music need to be banned from all area rinks. The coaches at one rink I skate at collectively have the WORST taste in music ever, I think they as a group buy 1 cd per year and do every program off of it. Last year 4 different kids who took from the same 2 coaches skated to Carmen. This year every other kid has a program from Bond's first album, which was so overused 5 yrs ago. And they don't even use the pieces off of it that don't get used, it's the same few songs that everyone and their mother have skated to. I dread what kids there will skate to now.

icedancer2

05-04-2009, 12:00 PM

The rule was approved by the board of directors, but then isolated on the floor for an amendment. The amendment to the rule was defeated. Had the rule been isolated to be stricken or rescinded, and the request to rescind was passed, then it would have NOT passed.

Do you have a link to the blog?

I only have the Facebook link:

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=77398467908&h=y1Ldh&u=sBBCV&ref=mf

Not sure if this is open to non-Facebook users... I think it must be on the US Figure Skating site... somewhere.

jazzpants

05-04-2009, 12:49 PM

I only have the Facebook link:

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=77398467908&h=y1Ldh&u=sBBCV&ref=mf

Not sure if this is open to non-Facebook users... I think it must be on the US Figure Skating site... somewhere.
I have the link that it goes to.... :mrgreen:

http://2009govcouncil.wordpress.com/

CoachPA

05-04-2009, 12:55 PM

Thanks for sharing that! I've been trying to keep up-to-date on all the changes and what went down, but there's just so much information.

twokidsskatemom

05-04-2009, 01:16 PM

Does anyone know about changes to well balanced programs?I read that pre juv program was going to 5 jumps, not 6.
Thanks!

looplover

05-04-2009, 01:56 PM

Skittl1321

05-04-2009, 02:41 PM

Can someone clarify for me? (I think from reading that blog this is correct...)

Vocal music can also now be used for tests.

I think only at the "6.0 levels", but it's not just a 6.0 competition thing?

Hmm... might be switching my program...

daisies

05-04-2009, 03:01 PM

Cost for renting an IJS system is approximately $1000 to $1500 unless the LOC or a neighboring club has an IJS system or chooses to do paper IJS.

Just to clarify, the proposal was to use paper and pencil, not the mini-systems, so this cost would not have been a factor.

Can someone tell me what the rationale for the vocal music thing was? I don't get it.

Mel On Ice

05-05-2009, 06:38 PM

LOL!! This is another reason I don't want to judge. I don't think I could take the music choices over and over and over again.

ask me how many "Annies" I've seen this winter. And Hannah Montanas. And the little girl that did the Cinderella movie last year.

Thin-Ice

05-06-2009, 05:37 AM

*Prays* Please, no "Sweet Home Alabama" programs. *shudders*

Or "All Summer Long" by Kid Rock... based on Lynard Skynard's "Sweet Home Alabama"... although it might be worth it the FIRST time a 10 year old comes out to skate to a combination of these songs.. because her coach hasn't actually listened to the words of these songs.

And as a judge I would have to say while most coaches and parents are pretty good about listening to lyrics of the younger skaters' programs, not all of them listen carefully. I do NOT think it appropriate to have a 7 year old skating to "Hand Jive" or "Greased Lightning" from "GREASE" or "Fever" or "Hey Big Spender" or a lot of the songs I hear at artistic competitions. If I know the coach or the parent, I do mention it when I hear a song that they might want to check the lyrics. I've had more than one adult say they had never actually listened to all the lyrics...:roll:

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 08:11 AM

RachelSk8er

05-06-2009, 08:45 AM

I had someone comment about an instrumental that never had any lyrics. It was from a TV show that this person felt was too racy. She was 3 when the show aired, and she's never SEEN a single episode.

People who like to be offended will be offended at all turns.

2008 my old synchro team (Crystallettes) skated to a combination of songs, the first in our program being Candy Man by Christina Aguilera. I'd run it on my own at least once every freestyle session I was on. One time a mom complained because of the lyrics. My response to her was "your 8 yr old skates to Grease for her showcase....you understand that's about teenagers having sex in cars, right?"

I would always get annoyed at synchro competitions when I'd see these juvenile and intermediate teams skate to Grease, Chicago, and all sorts of other stuff that is not appropriate.

Stormy

05-06-2009, 09:27 AM

I had someone comment about an instrumental that never had any lyrics. It was from a TV show that this person felt was too racy. She was 3 when the show aired, and she's never SEEN a single episode.

People who like to be offended will be offended at all turns.

Nothing offends me more than someone being offended just to be offended. That said, I can see this vocal music rule being taken advantage of....who's to stop an adult skater from skating to Baby Got Back because they can now? I'm exaggerating a little, but rules will be taken advantage of.

I really just don't see the need for vocals. We have showcase and Interp for a reason! Now everything's going to be one big Interp.

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 09:28 AM

2008 my old synchro team (Crystallettes) skated to a combination of songs, the first in our program being Candy Man by Christina Aguilera. I'd run it on my own at least once every freestyle session I was on. One time a mom complained because of the lyrics. My response to her was "your 8 yr old skates to Grease for her showcase....you understand that's about teenagers having sex in cars, right?"

I would always get annoyed at synchro competitions when I'd see these juvenile and intermediate teams skate to Grease, Chicago, and all sorts of other stuff that is not appropriate.Why would you get annoyed?

If "Candy Man" was cut so that the parts about "popping cherries" and getting into girls' panties were left out, you might have a valid point. If the cut included those, the woman wasn't out of line. What song in Grease were you comparing it to? "Born To Hand Jive" is a fun song that has nothing to do with "teenagers having sex in cars."

Unless they're re-enacting the inappropriate things on the ice, it's giving new life to music. Just because a musical or movie is racy, doesn't mean that every song in the score has to be off-limits.

"Twilight" is the new Harry Potter for this season. Gak.

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 09:35 AM

Stormy

05-06-2009, 10:30 AM

People are really skating to Twilight? There's nothing on the score that's really suited for skating, with the exception of Bella's Lullaby and even that's not all that exciting. I tried finding something from the score to use but it's just not skating music.

Here's my argument......Does skating to vocals give a slight edge to someone not skating to vocals? It's "easier" to interpret vocal music, so would that skater get better presentation marks? Personally, I don't want to skate against someone using vocals. I'd be annoyed since I'd feel that skater already has an advantage over me.

Skittl1321

05-06-2009, 10:32 AM

Nothing offends me more than someone being offended just to be offended. That said, I can see this vocal music rule being taken advantage of....who's to stop an adult skater from skating to Baby Got Back because they can now? I'm exaggerating a little, but rules will be taken advantage of.

I really just don't see the need for vocals. We have showcase and Interp for a reason! Now everything's going to be one big Interp.

I've seen an adult duet to baby got back on youtube. It was hysterical.
I don't know if they did it at an adults only competition or not.

Coaches at our rink often pick inappropriate music for their kids for showcase. Why is this any different?
Just gives them a new arena to have bad music choices. But hey, if it's one less Phantom good for that!
(Worst music choice for a kid "Miss Otis Regrets", which I've actually used myself. But this particular choreography involved miming shooting a gun, and I believe drinking - though that may have been a different song-. The drinking was bad enough. The gun, was a time issue. She was learning the routine the week before a competition. After a huge uproar in our town about a husband who had shot his wife and kids, and then killed himself. Um, I have issues with kids miming guns in routines at all times, but around the rink people were horrified.)

It is really difficult to find instrumental music. Someone said something upthread about this being part of the challenge (something) of figure skating. Not everyone likes music. If being able to skate to their favorite song means more kids will participate, I think it can only be a good thing. I know I'm not going to have to spend weeks looking for music anymore.

So many of the things we hear at local competitions have the "ghost" vocals of a bad job on audacity anyway.

Not to mention, I don't think we are going to hear any more of the same awful disney/hannah montana songs. We've always heard these songs too many times. Adding lyrics doesn't change that.

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 10:43 AM

Just gives them a new arena to have bad music choices. ROFLOL!!!

A lot of kids at the rink have said that they bought the Twilight soundtrack. THEY think it's wonderful music for skating, I haven't been impressed by anything they've tried. I think it's the same issue Rachel's brought up, but in reverse: the kids loved the books and the movie, so therefore ANY music from the soundtrack is perfect, even if it's not skateable.

At the Basic Skills levels, they're just skating elements, not really skating to the music. When they reach a point of really skating to music, the coaches usually switch them to something more traditional. That said, there's a skater (not my student) who skates to some piece of pop music that I don't recognize at all, the vocals are blurry and it ends as if someone turned off the recorder. That's bad editing, but I think I'd prefer Hanna Montana to it so I could at least sing along. (I do like Miley's "Hoedown Throwdown" though! lol)

Stormy's making me think: do vocals give the skater an advantage in presentation? Hmmmm...that might be a good point. It certainly adds a level of subjectivity to the performance. I'm not sure if it's good or bad though. Skittl- I think I mentioned hunting for instrumental/karaoke versions of the songs. It's not always easy because part of what makes a vocal song good is the lead vocals. Many karaoke versions just leave out the lead vocals, whereas an instrumental substitutes (a) musical instrument(s) for the vocal track. I prefer the latter, personally.

For example, one of my kids wanted to skate to "Hello, Goodbye" by the Beatles. There are lots of karaoke versions, but the whole vocal part of the song is gone. I had to look for a symphony version, which wasn't as perky, but it worked. It would have been easier cheaper to just use the Beatles CD I had on hand already. I think it will encourage more participation at the lower levels if they can skate to their favorite song instead of a version of it.

liz_on_ice

05-06-2009, 10:46 AM

(Worst music choice for a kid "Miss Otis Regrets", which I've actually used myself. ) and here I thought I was allover original thinking of using that piece. :roll:

Skittl1321

05-06-2009, 10:52 AM

and here I thought I was allover original thinking of using that piece. :roll:

Stuff Like That There also isn't original, but it's a fun skate too.
And Gotta Get A Gimmick.

I wouldn't use any of these for freeskate though. They are clearly showcase pieces, IMO.

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 11:11 AM

Music issues aside, I think this is a progressive move:

*The 2009 – 2010 U.S. Figure Skating Rulebook will be available online.
The Directory will be posted in the members only area and the Tests Book will still be produced in hard copy.

:bow::bow:

I hope they make it searchable.

CoachPA

05-06-2009, 11:25 AM

Clarice

05-06-2009, 11:55 AM

Music issues aside, I think this is a progressive move:

:bow::bow:

I hope they make it searchable.

It's about time! And I do like the way they've been doing the test book - I keep my copy in my skate bag - very handy.

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 12:11 PM

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 12:24 PM

Isk8NYC, I see that that announcement was sent out in a PSA GC Summary e-mail. Is that e-mail only being sent out to those who attended GC or to all coaches and/or PSA members? Just wondering as I have yet to receive anything and would be interested in reading it.

As for the online format of the rulebook, I agree that this is a great idea that will hopefully make things more accessible for coahes, skaters, and officials. While the test book will still be available in hard copy format, will this have to be purchased separately? I like to have my test book with me at the rink, and while I suppose I could just print it off the Internet, I like having that professionally bound copy with me.
I wonder if it will this lower our Coaches' USFSA membership fee ($40 in addition to USFSA membership) since each membership included a new rulebook each year? The background check should be less expensive this year since so many people submitted to it last year. They can negotiate a better rate with the existing company or a new one.

ibreakhearts66

05-06-2009, 12:38 PM

Ok, I'm a little confused here. Listening to all of you discuss the vocal music rule, it sounded like it could be used for Intermediate and below when 6.0 is being used (so basically always for pre-pre through pre-juv, and Juv and Int when IJS isn't being used). However, reading it, it sounds as if vocal music can ALWAYS be used up to Int, IJS or not, and can be used higher if it's 6.0 (ie, test-track).

...short programs and free skate, vocal music is not permitted except as follows: for all short and free skate programs up to and including the intermediate level AND for events using the 6.0 system of judging, vocal music with lyrics is permitted.

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 12:51 PM

daisies

05-06-2009, 01:11 PM

What song in Grease were you comparing it to? "Born To Hand Jive" is a fun song that has nothing to do with "teenagers having sex in cars."
"Greased Lightning" is about teenagers having sex in cars. I cringe every time a little boy skates to it in artistic. I mean, the lyrics don't even try to be subtle. Look 'em up. They're dirty! LOL!

Debbie S

05-06-2009, 01:16 PM

However, reading it, it sounds as if vocal music can ALWAYS be used up to Int, IJS or not, and can be used higher if it's 6.0 (ie, test-track).The wording is a bit cryptic (hey, it's figure skating, lol) but I believe those here who attended GC posted earlier that the lyrics rule applies to events through Int level that also use the 6.0 judging system. So that means all events in No-Test through Pre-Juv, and Test Track (or any other) events in Juv and Int where 6.0 is being used. My understanding is that for any event judged under IJS, lyrics are not permitted.

"Greased Lightning" is about teenagers having sex in cars. I cringe every time a little boy skates to it in artistic. I mean, the lyrics don't even try to be subtle. Look 'em up. They're dirty! LOLBack when I was a teacher (a former life, lol), the school where I was put on a Thanksgiving musical program. The teachers of the 3rd and 4th graders created this whole mini-musical using "Grease" songs. All the girls were Pink Ladies and the boys were T-birds. "Greased Lightning" became "The Mayflower" (and "Sandra Dee" became "Look at us, the Pink Ladies, cooking turkey, stuffing, and peas..."). It was very cute - no raunchy lyrics, lol.

My former skating club used "Grease" songs as part of the theme for its summer show one year, but the songs were edited to make them G-rated. :)

Stormy

05-06-2009, 01:44 PM

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/grease-soundtrack-greased-lightning-lyrics.html

Holy carp! I never read the lyrics before. Maybe Hand Jive isn't dirty, but this certainly is!!

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 01:51 PM

"Greased Lightning" is about teenagers having sex in cars. I cringe every time a little boy skates to it in artistic. I mean, the lyrics don't even try to be subtle. Look 'em up. They're dirty! LOL!
You're absolutely correct about that song - I don't need to look 'em up, lol. Your exchange was tit for tat then! Was he skating to the vocals? Ewwwww....what were they thinking?

vesperholly

05-06-2009, 01:52 PM

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/grease-soundtrack-greased-lightning-lyrics.html

Holy carp! I never read the lyrics before. Maybe Hand Jive isn't dirty, but this certainly is!!
LOL, no wonder my high school drama teacher banned "Grease" from ever being the school musical!

Isk8NYC

05-06-2009, 01:54 PM

My former skating club used "Grease" songs as part of the theme for its summer show one year, but the songs were edited to make them G-rated. :)So did our skating school - it was the open pro number one year.

We had to wear a boatneck pink chenille sweater and a pair of lycra pants that fell down when you walked in them. Glad I found out before we had to skate in those pants! I used hundreds of safety pins for those shows and was very happy to get rid of the costume.

The music and the choreography was great though and yes, we did the hand jive!

twokidsskatemom

05-06-2009, 05:56 PM

The wording is a bit cryptic (hey, it's figure skating, lol) but I believe those here who attended GC posted earlier that the lyrics rule applies to events through Int level that also use the 6.0 judging system. So that means all events in No-Test through Pre-Juv, and Test Track (or any other) events in Juv and Int where 6.0 is being used. My understanding is that for any event judged under IJS, lyrics are not permitted.

So since all comps are different, how would you know to use vocals or not? Like I said before IJS was used in west coast regionals down to pre pre. Our local comp last year ran IJS to pre juv.So unless you know every comp you do is just test track, it makes no sense to use vocals.

Skittl1321

05-06-2009, 06:03 PM

So since all comps are different, how would you know to use vocals or not? Like I said before IJS was used in west coast regionals down to pre pre. Our local comp last year ran IJS to pre juv.So unless you know every comp you do is just test track, it makes no sense to use vocals.

The announcement should tell you how the competition is scored. If you choice to use lyrics don't enter competitions that don't use 6.0

twokidsskatemom

05-06-2009, 06:26 PM

The announcement should tell you how the competition is scored. If you choice to use lyrics don't enter competitions that don't use 6.0

Yes, I get the gist. But since you pick music for the whole year, how do you know what comps offer IJS vs 6.0. You have no idea till the annoucments come out, that is the point. My skaters wouldnt use vocals anyway, but I am just playing devils advocate.
Those of us that only have one or two comps in state a year cant pick and choose what to attend.

daisies

05-06-2009, 06:33 PM

RachelSk8er

05-06-2009, 06:38 PM

Here's my argument......Does skating to vocals give a slight edge to someone not skating to vocals? It's "easier" to interpret vocal music, so would that skater get better presentation marks? Personally, I don't want to skate against someone using vocals. I'd be annoyed since I'd feel that skater already has an advantage over me.

I really don't think so, because it hasn't made a difference at all in synchro or free dance. A good skater who knows how to pick music that highlights their strengths as a skater and perform to it is a good skater and can put on a show regardless of whether they have lyrics or not. I really think people might get lazy and think "hey I have lyrics" and just kind of skate to the music without performing like they may do now to instrumental music.

I also think you do run more of a risk by using lyrics...what if you pick a song the judges don't like, or that they find annoying, or the cuts are distracting? I think it's easier to get over or ignore that with instrumental music.

twokidsskatemom

05-06-2009, 06:44 PM

Then you don't use lyrics. It seems it's aimed more at skaters who will have no chance of doing an IJS competition, like test-track skaters.

Personally, I think the rule is stupid and still don't understand the rationale. YMMV.
But then it comes back to one comp you might do test track, the next comp only offers well balanced, not test track.So it will be confusing to those that go back and forth. It seems like a huge hassel to coaches that have skaters that switch.
Its a shame that no one asked the coaches:giveup:

daisies

05-06-2009, 07:22 PM

But then it comes back to one comp you might do test track, the next comp only offers well balanced, not test track.So it will be confusing to those that go back and forth. It seems like a huge hassel to coaches that have skaters that switch.
Its a shame that no one asked the coaches:giveup:

I think you're missing the point. It won't "come back" to anything if you just don't use lyrics at all.

Just pretend there was no rule change. That way, if there is any possibility, however remote, that you will do an IJS comp, your program will be OK. No one is forcing the skater or coach to use lyrics. All hassle can be avoided by choosing an instrumental piece to begin with.

Ellyn

05-06-2009, 07:51 PM

There two parts to the vocal music rules. Here's my take on the wording:

1) ...music with lyrics is permitted for Free Skate and Pairs tests.
Any skater taking a Free Skate or Pairs test can use music with lyrics.

2) music with lyrics is permitted for all short and free skate programs up to and including the intermediate level and for events using the 6.0 system.
Skaters competing in No-Test through Intermediate (inclusive) at an IJS competition are allowed to use lyrics.
Skaters in a 6.0 event can use lyrics at any time.

Skaters competing in Novice or higher IJS events are not allowed to use lyrics.

Is this correct?

NB: "lyrics" = "vocals"

That's how I understood it.

In other words, the only events for which lyrics are not allowed are for standard-track novice through senior freestyle and pairs competition. Everything else should allow lyrics.

"Vocals" in which the voice is used as an instrument, with no words, was already allowed, so the two things are not identical.

I only hope that skaters and coaches choosing to use music with lyrics will make their choices with good taste. And I'm thinking more that they will choose music that is still interesting as music, regardless of what the words do or do not say.

Stormy

05-06-2009, 07:57 PM

Its a shame that no one asked the coaches:giveup:

Um, it's a shame they didn't ask ANYONE!! This was presented as new business at the board of directors meeting on Wednesday at GC. They really snuck that in there, and it was the very last thing voted on at the general meeting, when people were already tired and ready to get out. I don't think anyone outside of GC knew this was even up for a vote. It seemed like it should have been something made known before GC.

vesperholly

05-06-2009, 08:03 PM

Um, it's a shame they didn't ask ANYONE!! This was presented as new business at the board of directors meeting on Wednesday at GC. They really snuck that in there, and it was the very last thing voted on at the general meeting, when people were already tired and ready to get out. I don't think anyone outside of GC knew this was even up for a vote. It seemed like it should have been something made known before GC.
ITA, and this is exactly why I don't like the rule — the way it was presented. There was a lot of discussion on it as people started to realize what the rule entailed. But like Stormy said, people were tired and ready to be done. A lot of delegates seemed to just be "going along" with what the board already approved. Such a drastic change to the sport should be presented in the RFAs beforehand, not as new business.

LWalsh

05-06-2009, 08:15 PM

I have heard that this is a movement by the ISU to have vocals in international competitions. They've already done it for Danbce a few years ago. They are getting tired of all the IJS programs looking the same and felt vocals could give a skater the chance to tell a story. They (USFS) apparently also want to try to apeal to a wider audience (TV ratings which we desperately need).

To be more "glass is half full" imagine a really strong skater skating to Nessum Dorma with vocals....rather than Brittany Spears :roll:

The rationale also was that the use of vocals would appeal to the younger kids and maybe keep them involved longer. I'm not sure how this accomplished that goal though.

I can see where they are trying to be more TV friendly. Also if the ISU starts allowing vocals and the US doesn't, it poses another problem. USFS only has so much control, the ISU drives most of the rule changes.

LW

SkateGuard

05-06-2009, 09:00 PM

I just read through some of the disillusionment with skaters who come back a little lower than they probably should to "test the waters..."

I started skating at 22....fortunately, because of my age, the competitive requirements when I was a kid were even enough with my current level's requirements that we seem to all be on a fairly level playing field. (I doubt our gold medalist skated competitively as a kid, and I believe last year's did not.) I can't tell you who skated as a kid and who didn't in my freestyle groups, for example.

Let's take two kids, born in 1988. One skates from 5 until 16, quitting as a competitive preliminary. The other starts in college, starting with standard tests and moving over to adult after her 21st birthday. Okay, a prelimary program circa 2004 looked very similar to an adult Gold program, if not Masters Novice. Even if you take into account that the kid skater didn't keep herself in shape during that five year layoff, there is no way these two skaters (one who competed prelim as a kid and one who just passed the bronze fs test in time to enter ANs) will look anything alike at their first adult nationals in 2010, even if the rules allow them to compete against each other.

I know it doesn't seem like an issue, but I certainly hope someone is paying attention to the skaters who start in their late teens/early 20s. It's a great group that can recharge the ranks of adult skaters because they have so much energy and enthusiasm--but aren't prone to burnout. Given that we have an age bell curve in skating, we need a lot more young faces in the adult ranks...so we do have to make sure they aren't being inadvertently "pushed out."

(and I was just wondering why Rob wasn't already on the Adult Committee...that seems about 5 years too late, IMHO.....)

twokidsskatemom

05-06-2009, 09:55 PM

Um, it's a shame they didn't ask ANYONE!! This was presented as new business at the board of directors meeting on Wednesday at GC. They really snuck that in there, and it was the very last thing voted on at the general meeting, when people were already tired and ready to get out. I don't think anyone outside of GC knew this was even up for a vote. It seemed like it should have been something made known before GC.
I agree with you ! I am not a coach, just a mom. My kids have showcase and artistic and wouldnt use vocals for FS. I just think its a strange thing to sneak in, and since I have seen kids go back and forth with test and wb fs, can see some people using the wrong music!

pairman2

05-07-2009, 06:30 AM

I know it doesn't seem like an issue, but I certainly hope someone is paying attention to the skaters who start in their late teens/early 20s. It's a great group that can recharge the ranks of adult skaters because they have so much energy and enthusiasm--but aren't prone to burnout. Given that we have an age bell curve in skating, we need a lot more young faces in the adult ranks...so we do have to make sure they aren't being inadvertently "pushed out."

.)

Couldn't agree with you more. This is a big part of the future of adult skating

rlichtefeld

05-07-2009, 01:11 PM

(and I was just wondering why Rob wasn't already on the Adult Committee...that seems about 5 years too late, IMHO.....)

Thanks for the nice note.

Part of the reason is that there have been 2 other people from my club on the committee at different times. Ginger was on it for a while, and then Davin was on the committee up until last year. I applied last year and didn't hear anything back. This year I was approached by the Eastern Section chair.

Rob

momsk8er

05-07-2009, 10:35 PM

The rationale also was that the use of vocals would appeal to the younger kids and maybe keep them involved longer. I'm not sure how this accomplished that goal though.

I can see where they are trying to be more TV friendly.
LW

Well look what popular music with vocals has done to ballroom dancing!! Dancing with the Stars would never have made it using no vocals music, imo.

skaternum

05-08-2009, 08:18 AM

Well look what popular music with vocals has done to ballroom dancing!! Dancing with the Stars would never have made it using no vocals music, imo.
Yeah, but some would argue that what they do on DWTS is not strictly ballroom. (Ooh, I've been looking for an excuse to use that phrase for years. Hurrah!) :P

rlichtefeld

05-08-2009, 09:16 AM

USFSA has put out a doc detailing the URGENT matters decided at Governing Council:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/events/200809/governingcouncil/Important%20and-or%20Urgent%20Changes%20from%202009%20Governing%20 Council.pdf

Rob

jazzpants

05-08-2009, 09:36 AM

Yeah, but some would argue that what they do on DWTS is not strictly ballroom. (Ooh, I've been looking for an excuse to use that phrase for years. Hurrah!) :P
Touché! :lol:

Cheers,
jazzpants, who wants her money back for her ill fated Argentine Tango class at the Cheryl Burke Dance Studio. (Seriously, it was okay -- just had a really bad dance partner and end up dancing with the more experienced students and the young 20 year old kid who took roll. But never EVER want to dance in those pointy 3 inch high heels!!! 8O )

blue111moon

05-08-2009, 11:30 AM

Yeah, but some would argue that what they do on DWTS is not strictly ballroom. (Ooh, I've been looking for an excuse to use that phrase for years. Hurrah!) :P

And many will argue that the vocals on DWTS do more to kill the songs chosen than to enhance the dancing, whatever it is. :lol:

Given that the musical tastes of some of the coaches I know aren't much better than whoever is picking the songs on DWTS, I shudder to think about the atrocities I will have to endure at future competitions.

Skate@Delaware

05-08-2009, 01:45 PM

Touché! :lol:

Cheers,
jazzpants, who wants her money back for her ill fated Argentine Tango class at the Cheryl Burke Dance Studio. (Seriously, it was okay -- just had a really bad dance partner and end up dancing with the more experienced students and the young 20 year old kid who took roll. But never EVER want to dance in those pointy 3 inch high heels!!! 8O )

ooooohhhh!!! I would love to learn any of the tango's! You must have a great partner for dancing tho! I had a fantastic one several years ago and he was actually TALLER than me (even with me wearing 3" heels)! LOL!

LilJen

05-08-2009, 05:23 PM

jazzpants

05-08-2009, 06:18 PM

ooooohhhh!!! I would love to learn any of the tango's! You must have a great partner for dancing tho! I had a fantastic one several years ago and he was actually TALLER than me (even with me wearing 3" heels)! LOL!
Yes, in my case, I need a partner who knows how to LEAD. Of course, the partner I had at the time was just learning how to tango too but at the very least he should go and practice the dance and not just take the class once a week and just leave! (Those who read the Parlor a while back know who I'm talking about...)

Thankfully we are encouraged to switch partners and often I get a good partner that knows what he's doing and THOSE partners I do very well with. :twisted:

Word to the men: If you are going into ice dance or ballroom dance to pick up women, you better be practicing your dance with your partners (since you're the guy and therefore need to learn how to lead...) If you're going to a dance class to pick up women and don't practice, you're not gonna get ANY respect from ANY of the women!!! :twisted:

kander

05-09-2009, 12:17 AM

Word to the men: If you are going into ice dance or ballroom dance to pick up women, you better be practicing your dance with your partners (since you're the guy and therefore need to learn how to lead...) If you're going to a dance class to pick up women and don't practice, you're not gonna get ANY respect from ANY of the women!!! :twisted:

Heh, that's the reason I got back into skating <mumble> years ago. I had so much fun with freestyle I never got around to ice dancing. I get asked every now and then to ice dance with somebody. There is one tall girl who keeps asking because of my skating level and the fact that I'm a six footer. I have to decline because I don't have enough time to practice dancing and keep up with my freestyle. It really takes a commitment I can't make. Otherwise I'd do it in a second.

NoVa Sk8r

05-13-2009, 09:20 PM

The combined report of action is now available:
http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=43041

rlichtefeld

05-14-2009, 09:08 AM

Good think to know that I'm considered an athlete:

55. EXHIBIT G – APPROVED to amend Article XXII, Section 2 (page 17) as shown:
ARTICLE XXII
Prerequisites to Participation in U.S. Figure Skating Activities and the Definition of Athlete
Section 2 Definition of Athlete. For all purposes set forth in these bylaws or the official rules of U.S. Figure
Skating, an athlete shall be defined as a member meeting the prerequisites of Section 1 and:
A. Any person who competes in a sectional championship in singles, pairs or dance in a qualifying event; or
U.S. Figure Skating Championships, the U.S. Junior Figure Skating Championships or the U.S.
Synchronized Skating Championships; or
B. Any person who places first through fourth in singles, pairs or dance in the U.S. Collegiate Figure
Skating Championships or the U.S. Adult Figure Skating Championships; or
C. Any person who has met any of the criteria in subsection (A) or (B) within the prior five years; or
D. Any person who has competed for U.S. Figure Skating in an international competition as a member of
the U.S. Figure Skating team as defined in ICR 4.01 and ICR 9.01 within the prior 10 years.

Rob

skaternum

05-14-2009, 10:16 AM

Well, that pretty much does it for me & David as far as competing in pairs goes. We'd hoped to get back to it once I rehab this last surgery and he passes his MITF test, but these rules force us into Gold. And that's ridiculous; we simply don't belong there. We are most definitely silver level skaters, both individually and as a pair. I don't think we're even going to bother. In the few years we've been skating together, we've been classified as Adult, then Gold, then Silver, now Gold again. :giveup:

rlichtefeld

05-14-2009, 01:51 PM

RachelSk8er

05-14-2009, 02:06 PM

skaternum

05-14-2009, 02:56 PM

What are the specifics that force you into Gold? Which test? Which one of you?

Rob

It's David's Juvenile Free Skate that he passed about 20 years ago. Under last year's rule, if you passed it before 1994, you could skate silver. This year, there is no consideration given for having passed it prior to the Juvenile test changing in 1994. And neither of us have taken a pairs test, so the exemption doesn't help us.

So our options are spend the time and money to take, collectively, 4 tests (bronze & silver pairs for each of us) or compete in a level in which we are clearly not suited.

It really kills me, because if David wanted to compete in singles, he would be able to skate Silver. But because of the way these pairs rules are written, he's forced into Gold. It makes NO SENSE.

flo

05-14-2009, 03:47 PM

Yup, and the wording for the exemption at gold states that you can compete at gold if you have a juv or gold pair test even though you may have an intermediate free or higher. It's absurd. So in gold pairs we can have a team at silver level fs (the juv test taken pre-1994), and a pair with intermediate or higher fs with a gold or juv pairs test and those of us with the pre-1994 juvenile pairs tests (which is a silver pair test).
We may as well throw all the pair names in a hat and draw them out to choose a level.

lskater

05-14-2009, 10:40 PM

It's easy now to blame the declining numbers on the economy. But the fact is a lot of adults have turned away from USFS and their narrow focus on AN. Maybe it's time the Adult Committee looked at that.

Look at the following thread, http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=13582. I noticed the numbers dwindling at AN a while ago.

I've been skating and competing for 13 years, started at age 28. I am not yet even skating Silver level, and after seeing the top 5-6 Silver level skaters on IceNetwork, really am not wanting to.......looks like you need to have your novice moves down at speed to be competitive. I lost count of the number of counters/rockers I saw in the top 5 programs...and we're not talking slow counters/rockers...we're talking fast...and in straight-line footwork. I'm still just trying to get my Silver MIF 3's down.

My point is that I've been competing for a while and the numbers of AN competitors IS getting smaller. When I was 29, I skated in group 1 and there were 5 qualifying groups at just my age level for Bronze...that's almost 60 ladies. I remember there was even one age level (I believe it was Silver 1) with 6 qualifying groups.

So I guess I'm saying that I've been around a while and have seen the changes in AN and have been competing against kid-skaters for a while now. As hard as I work (and obviously I've been working on it for many years...we're talking between 6-10 hours a week for 13 years), I will never be competitive against those who skated as kids....and you're right...I shouldn't let that bother me...I should skate for the enjoyment of it....which I am, but I am constantly in conflict with the competitive spirit in me that desperately wants to be able to compete at a level-playing field.

Stormy

05-15-2009, 09:26 AM

I'm honestly not sure where the "happy medium" is in the situation you described, lskater. The Silver I group was very tough. But they are age class I, they are the "kids". I didn't watch Silver II or III yet, so I don't know if those top 5-6 skaters in those groups were doing the same moves and footwork the I's were. You're not in class I, so saying you can't compete against the skaters doing higher level footwork like they were in I isn't really comparing apples to apples.

How do we help this "problem" then, since some do percieve it as a problem, of having to compete against returning kid skaters? There will be more and more of them, especially since they now know they don't have to stop skating in college and have a place to compete again right when they turn 21. Is this an issue over every age class in every level? I guess my question is....how do we "level the playing field?" What would you like to see done differently?

flo

05-15-2009, 09:40 AM

Good questions. I also remember 5-6 groups back when I started. It would be a good survey to find out why these skaters stopped. Some decline in that cohort would be expected due to changes in economy, interest and other matters, but the majority of those factors would not be exclusive to that group. There is not only a decline in those skaters but also a decline in the numbers and make up of those taking their place.

Skittl1321

05-15-2009, 09:53 AM

But they are age class I, they are the "kids".

Not directing this specifically at you Stormy, but I think it's important to remember that not every "I" started skating as children. There are young skaters out there who started after college.

Stormy

05-15-2009, 11:06 AM

Not directing this specifically at you Stormy, but I think it's important to remember that not every "I" started skating as children. There are young skaters out there who started after college.

Yes, very true. I guess another one of my questions would be then, do these Class I skaters that did start skating after college find a problem competing against those that did start skating earlier?

pairman2

05-15-2009, 11:37 AM

So here's a hypothetical 'solution'

Have a silver ladies 1 event for those that started to skate after 18 ys old, another one for those that started at 14 years old and another for those that started even earlier. Wouldn't that make a mockery of adult skating? Of course it would. Age groups and test levels are the primary buffer already in place to level the playing field. At a certain point, you have to say enough is enough, not to mention simply being realistic as to what is ever going to receive serious consideration. As I pointed out earlier, Adult Nationals may not be practical for everyone but local competitions are a place for everyone to have a fulfilling competitive experience. If the AN experience is inordinately tough for some, then it's just a step closer to being a truely 'national' competition as opposed to a giant scale 'local' event. It's my observation and opinion that all competition; kids, elite and adult, are gradully getting a lot tougher, technically, so things like a footwork passage with just 3 turns and bunny hops in silver 1 will never again be competitive at an event like AN.

blue111moon

05-15-2009, 12:39 PM

Well, kid competitions have begun the Test Track events precisely to get and keep the less-gifted skaters from getting discouraged and quitting.

If Adult Nationals is going to remain an Open event, then they have to come up with ways to encourage participation at all levels, not just the elite/best ones. Introducing solo dance is one positive thing I see. Maybe we need a form of Test Track for adults?

As for the hypothetical example, frankly, looking back over decades of skating, I don't think there's really a lot of difference in the learning curve between someone who starts at 18 and someone who starts at 14 and then end up in the same group at 21 other than four years of practice. There is however a large difference between someone who started at 14 and someone who started at 34 when they end up in the same group at 48.

I'd just like people to remember that the US Adult program was started to bring adults into the sport, not just hang on to skaters who started as kids. It seems like, that in focussing on the latter, the former have not just been forgotten, they're being actively discouraged from aspiring to anything beyond Basic Skills.