USFSA Governing Council [Archive] - Page 2

Stormy

05-15-2009, 01:20 PM

Why can't the non-qual events be treated like the test track events for std, with restrictions?

There isn't a huge disparity between the tests and WBP requirements for Silver and Gold. In Gold, especially with IJS, you can be competitive without an axel sometimes. Silver can do an axel, but again, you can be quite competitive without one, several people have medaled and won Silver I and II the past few years with no axels. It's Bronze where you only need a Sal and Toe loop on the test but can do up to a lutz in competition.

But even if they limit the jumps more, they're not going to say a Silver I skater can't do rockers, choctaws and counters for their footwork or have a flying camel-catchfoot spin. That's where I see the biggest improvement is, the spins and footwork. Not the jumps. So the idea of test track really dosen't help there, although I can see how it would help in Bronze.

Is the solution of a test track like event needed across all levels and classes? Where's the most disparity? Bronze III? Silver II? What levels most need to be "tweaked"?

I've only done 4 ANs, only this most recent one was at Gold. I never felt as a Silver skater I wasn't as "celebrated", for lack of a better term, as the Gold/Masters skaters. I guess what I am looking for is hearing how AN used to run, where they did do more to bring adults into the sport? How was the focus back then, compared to now? How is focusing more on the Championship skaters discouraging the Bronze and Silver skaters? If anything, through the years it's made me more focused and determined to be one of those skaters someday. I found it motivating as opposed to discouraging.

I know I keep asking a lot of questions, but I really want to try to get at the "root of the problem". If we can get back skaters who have shied away from AN for whatever reasons, I think that's a great thing!

flo

05-15-2009, 01:58 PM

Again - good questions. I noticed the decline in my age group when the moves were made manditory. This added an extra burden to the competitive skaters. The money and time shifted from attending events to preparing for tests. The change in requirements also slowed and in some cases stopped the advance of skaters from level to level. Other friends with whom I use to compete, did stay with the program but then found it very discouraging after taking the tests to find themselves competing against someone who started skating at 4 and now at bronze or silver. Adult Nationls use have a spirit that set us apart from the standard track. In this we were proud to work on the tests and compete at an appropriate level and skate! After I medaled at Bronze, I moved up, and until I did, I did not compete at Nationals in bronze again. The mindset of the standard track - to put off testing to compete below your level was not the case with adults. Even the older kids skating then were usually responsible enough to test themselves to the proper level.

I believe what encouraged adults to participate in the events was the fun and sense of fellowship among the skaters. We all attended eachother's events, be them 8:00am or 11:00pm. Over the years the character of the event has changed significantly. This last AN, with it's exceptional LOC was more like the early events.

Debbie S

05-15-2009, 02:06 PM

Silver can do an axel, but again, you can be quite competitive without one, several people have medaled and won Silver I and II the past few years with no axels. It's Bronze where you only need a Sal and Toe loop on the test but can do up to a lutz in competition. Actually, on the Silver test, the hardest required jump is a flip. And on the Bronze test, you also need a loop (well, one other single rev jump other than sal or toe).

But even if they limit the jumps more, they're not going to say a Silver I skater can't do rockers, choctaws and counters for their footwork or have a flying camel-catchfoot spin. That's where I see the biggest improvement is, the spins and footwork. This is an issue everywhere. Some adult skaters, particularly Silver and Gold, are a lot more advanced in their moves relative to their FS. The only thing for the skaters less advanced in MIF to do is work on their MIF. Even if you're never (or not for a while) going to test rockers and counters, you can still learn them. A lot of kids I skate with have turns in their programs that they haven't learned in MIF yet - the coaches just teach them the turn and say "this is a ____." I don't see that a lot with adults - most coaches will put in what an adult skater can already do, but there's no reason you can't discuss this with your coach(es) when you get your program and ask them to challenge you.

I competed in Pre-Bronze FS once with a skater who obviously skated as a kid. This was the old Class I (25-35) and I was 33 - this woman looked barely 25. She only did sal, toe, and waltz-toe, but they were very high jumps, and she did an Ina Bauer and a change-of-edge spread eagle that took up about half the length of the ice. Great speed and flow. Of course she was at the wrong level, but this was when returning skaters were still required to take adult MIF and FS tests to qualify to compete, so she likely just hadn't taken the Bronze (or Silver) tests. She may have just not tested in her previous skating experience (or maybe she only tested dance?) or maybe did ISI, or may have really tested higher in FS than she should have to be eligible for Pre-B, but this was a non-qual event, and therefore was basically on the honor system as far as eligibility. Was it fair to me and the other skater? Well, not really - I'll never forget this woman's smile (think proverbial cat that swallowed the canary) when I came off the ice after my program - I skated last and didn't see the others until I got the video, but she skated first so she presumably watched both of us - she knew she was going to win b/c next to her, we looked like, well, beginners, which is who Pre-B is for - I've never seen her again at any comp, though, so maybe she had her fill of beating up on the non-sandbaggers and went on her merry way.)

But my point is, you can't control what happens at a comp or who competes against you and whether they should be there or not. So you either have to improve your skating enough to be more competitive against the people at your level or else don't compete. And by "don't compete", I don't mean don't skate - there are plenty of other things to work on in skating and enjoy.

I know I keep asking a lot of questions, but I really want to try to get at the "root of the problem". If we can get back skaters who have shied away from AN for whatever reasons, I think that's a great thing!Well, I've never been to AN and haven't been skating that long, but my guess is that, as with most things, the novelty has worn off. When AN was first created, I'm sure there was a lot of excitement and a lot of adults that wanted to show support for such a comp, so they entered in droves. But I suspect that now, a lot of those skaters have moved on - either they're not skating anymore due to various life issues, or skating less, or they've decided not to compete, for whatever reason. I think the increase in 'returning' skaters may be discouraging both old and new adult-onset skaters from competing, but I don't think that's the only factor. AN is expensive, and it's likely that many people don't enter unless they feel they can be competitive, or maybe they enter once and that's it, so the result is skaters tend to be at the high end of their level's comp standard, which discourages newbies, and so on... I think it would be interesting to look at numbers of adults competing locally (before the economy started tanking) and see if that has changed significantly over the years.

And I don't think the increase in returning kids is solely the result of the USFSA rule changes (which I assume have all originated in the Adult Committee?). I think with the growth of the adult program, more and more kids are seeing that as a viable way to continue their skating after college, and more adults who may have stopped skating for a while are deciding to come back and participate - at least, that's what I've picked up from reading the Skating Mag profiles and the AN articles.

pairman2

05-15-2009, 02:10 PM

To clarify this for those who are challenged in understanding a pretty basic statement in it's proper context:

"Then it's just a step closer to being a truely 'national' competition [for adults]as opposed to a giant scale 'local' event"."

If some are truely serious about a 'test track for adults', go ahead and send that to the new adult committee! IMHO Older adults ARE protected from kid skaters. They are called age group 2-5.

As to whether AN is shrinking, I think the data suggests that it fluctuates pretty much in line with general economic conditions and how ever remote the location is from larger population centers...no exact correlations of course. (& I qualify this next statement by saying that AN is far from the sole focal point of being an adult skating) - So what if AN IS shrinking? So what? 800 competitors is virtually unmanagable and from what I heard, the 400+ this year seems to have contributed to about the best event ever! The real problem in adult skating is with shrinking participation from the younger age groups (in all competitions - everywhere) and the aging of the long timers in the older age groups - no new blood coming in there!, so I say WELCOME KID SKATERS!!!!!!!!!!!

Stormy

05-15-2009, 02:41 PM

If some are truely serious about a 'test track for adults', go ahead and send that to the new adult committee! IMHO Older adults ARE protected from kid skaters. They are called age group 2-5.

I don't think that was the point, exactly. Many have said there's a big difference in skill from a skater in Silver II or III that started at age 30, than one that started at 8, quit in college or whenever, and returned again at age 30. I'm just throwing out numbers as examples here.

Is the Class I age group shrinking? Like I said, I've only been doing it for 4 years, but my first AN had 6 in Silver II and it's grown a lot from there Only 2 Gold I girls last year and this year there were 7 (one scratched).

Pairman did make me think..is a bigger AN better? Bigger means more days, longer days, more time away from work and family If AN was so big it started on Tuesday and ended Saturday night, I can bet you people wouldn't be pleased. Sure, you don't have to stay the whole time but that's most of the fun of it. Did AN have 800 competitors ever? I worked at the rink in Marlboro, MA when AN was there and it was certainly big but not THAT big.

pairman2

05-15-2009, 02:45 PM

I beleive one or two of the AN's at lake placid were at about 800

My main point is that AN does not define 'adult skating' - as in, if I can't go to AN and be 'competitve', I'm quitting skating altogether....I don;t think that really defines very many, if anyone, out there....or maybe it does

flo

05-15-2009, 03:15 PM

"Then it's just a step closer to being a truely 'national' competition [for adults]as opposed to a giant scale 'local' event"."
We understand this is for adults. Anyone who believes this is not a "national" competition may want to enter the standard events if they are more in line with their beliefs as to what a "national" event should be.

AN may not defne adult skating for some, but it is clearly a major component for many of us. No one wants to keep out the kids, or the aging kids - yes, they do get out of age group 1, but to not discourage new adult skaters from starting. If not the "400" left will be 400 aged kids and 2 adult skaters.

Debbie - I think the novelty may have worn off, as you say for some of the skaters begining when I did, but the change in makeup of the early age groups is not due to that, or it would be equal for both groups. I believe fewer adult skaters (starting as adults) is due to the test burden (4 now vs. 1 or 2) and the decline in continuation of adult skaters is due to the added test burden and the returning kid factor.

The point is not to keep the returning skaters out, but to encourage them to test to and thus compete at their correct level.

Skate@Delaware

05-15-2009, 04:04 PM

[quote=flo;The point is not to keep the returning skaters out, but to encourage them to test to and thus compete at their correct level.[/quote]

this has been my coach's focus since I she became my coach, but we have had setbacks (i.e. correcting previous bad teaching, then my injury).

Theoretically I could compete USFS as a no-test but that wouldn't be right. The plan is for me to test sometime this next season and maybe (shhhh! just a maybe out there) do HC 2009 or another USFS at the pre-bronze/bronze level. This would be a HUGE change for me from the mostly-kid ISI comps but I think a very refreshing one. I'm just glad there are no big changes in the adult pre-bronze test since I started preparing for it years ago (has it been that long?)

SkateGuard

05-15-2009, 04:09 PM

What an interesting discussion, and thanks for the mature approach.

Stormy, you do bring in some interesting questions. I think the introduction of moves has had a huge change, as well as the rules that have made Adult Nationals become "more competitive." The one thing we are losing is the idea that, as soon as you pass your bronze free test, you are "qualified" to compete at Adult Nationals. Several times I have had to correct bronze-level skaters I've met along the way who thought they weren't "good enough" to compete at ANs.

What I'm seeing quite a bit in the Class I's is the remnant of kid skating in that your moves are several levels higher than your freestyle, and I think it's why you see such strong skating in Bronze and Silver I--many of those skaters continued with synchro, dance, or moves while they struggled with a freestyle element or two.

Meanwhile, we also have skaters who are just passing the moves tests that correspond to the level. It is a huge disparity, but limiting the moves tests of lower freestyle levels (which I advocated five years ago) would also deprive us of some great skaters who are most definitely coming down with AOSS.

Now, I think if we had the qual groups separated by skating level (moves/dance/test dates) vs the other methods (age, random), the playing fields would be more even--and you never know what can happen in the SuperFinal! :D

flying~camel

05-15-2009, 04:23 PM

After I medaled at Bronze, I moved up, and until I did, I did not compete at Nationals in bronze again.

That is exactly where I am now.

I medaled in Bronze I at AN08 but due to various issues (health, work, life in general), I haven't passed my Silver tests yet. I also have not competed in freestyle since AN 08. If I get my Silver test program together, I'll probably skate up at a few local competitions but will definitely NOT compete in Bronze again at ANs, even if that means just doing interps or solo dance at ANs.

RachelSk8er

05-15-2009, 05:02 PM

There isn't a huge disparity between the tests and WBP requirements for Silver and Gold. In Gold, especially with IJS, you can be competitive without an axel sometimes. Silver can do an axel, but again, you can be quite competitive without one, several people have medaled and won Silver I and II the past few years with no axels. It's Bronze where you only need a Sal and Toe loop on the test but can do up to a lutz in competition.

But even if they limit the jumps more, they're not going to say a Silver I skater can't do rockers, choctaws and counters for their footwork or have a flying camel-catchfoot spin. That's where I see the biggest improvement is, the spins and footwork. Not the jumps. So the idea of test track really dosen't help there, although I can see how it would help in Bronze.

Yeah, test track requirements won't solve anything. Limit the elements in silver to what is required for the test, you won't her me complain, and it still won't stop me from doing rockers, choctaws, and twizzles to my heart's content. It wouldn't push me into gold either, because I don't have an axel yet. No axel, no gold test. And trust me, I'm trying to get it.

skaternum

05-15-2009, 05:17 PM

IMHO Older adults ARE protected from kid skaters. They are called age group 2-5.

Not really. You get returning kid skaters in every age class. To give a hypothetical example, you could have a kid who skated from age 5-18, quit skating, then started back up again at age 35. That person clearly has an advantage over the skater in her age class who started at 29. You could pick her out of the group in a heartbeat.

pairman2

05-15-2009, 05:35 PM

re: age groups and fairness, Well opinion on that is clearly divided about that as people from both sides of the arguement have spoken up about this in recent discussions on the forums here. However it's not just 'kid skaters' that threaten what others perceive as fairness. As skateguard implied, what about the large segment of skaters (kids especially) that test well ahead in their moves? For example, if doubles are unattainable or inconsistent for a skater why would it be a problem for them to improve something else instead? At a certain point, don't we just consider that learning to be a better skater? Isn't that what judges want to see more then anything? Just throwing that out for consideration.

Skittl1321

05-15-2009, 05:52 PM

Now, I think if we had the qual groups separated by skating level (moves/dance/test dates) vs the other methods (age, random), the playing fields would be more even--and you never know what can happen in the SuperFinal! :D

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. I think an older Silver adult, with Silver moves is more equal to a young adult with silver moves, than two of the same age where one only has Silver Moves and the other has novice!

I haven't passed my bronze test yet, but I hope to by adult nationals next year. I'm still a "I"- but I am definitely adult start. I have major injuries in my past to contend with and am not an "athlete". I've met bronze skaters who started as children (though more are Silver) who had axels as kids, but not tests. I am at a very similiar level to another skater of my same level (bronze moves, pre-bronze fee) and she's 20 years older than me. Local competitions don't have enough adults to have levels so no-test competes against silver, and everyone else (I don't think there are gold skaters around here) at all the ones I've seen. Placement has always been by test. The reason I want to compete at adult nationals is to compete against people at my own level. But it doesn't really sound like that would happen.

flo

05-15-2009, 06:08 PM

"and from what I heard, the 400+ this year seems to have contributed to about the best event ever! "

No. From those of us who were there, we saw that this LOC could have handled any crowd. They were prepared, did their homework and were also made up of adults who exemplify the adult program.

SkateGuard

05-15-2009, 06:24 PM

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. I think an older Silver adult, with Silver moves is more equal to a young adult with silver moves, than two of the same age where one only has Silver Moves and the other has novice!

Oops, I was referring within age groups. Of course, then we would need enough skaters in each group to have qual rounds...

I was very much like you, starting at 22 and taking my first USFSA test the day before my 25th birthday (back when adult started at 25). Keep at it, and I can't wait to see you at ANs!

Ironically, I am on both sides of this issue. I am barely above a "test-level" silver, mainly because I just passed my silver free last year, right before having a major health issue. On the flip side, I have done a lot of social dancing in the past couple years. I can social dance up to the American (first silver) and have played with the tango and blues. However, my tests qualify me to compete in pre-bronze dance. I know many primarily "social" dancers who, if attracted to do ANs, would qualify significantly lower than their abilities, mainly because they have never tested....

vesperholly

05-15-2009, 09:39 PM

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. I think an older Silver adult, with Silver moves is more equal to a young adult with silver moves, than two of the same age where one only has Silver Moves and the other has novice!
High moves tests aren't everything competitively. Passing my Junior Moves two years ago didn't stop me from finishing 9th out of 11 in Silver 1 at this year's ANs.

lskater

05-15-2009, 10:23 PM

So here are a couple thoughts (and I'm not targeting any one person, I'm just putting it up for discussion):

1. Why can someone who has passed their Gold moves, compete below Gold level freestyle? The last time I checked, a freestyle program has jumps, spins AND footwork. Does it make sense to limit the freestyle elements at the lower levels, but not the footwork executed?

2. The main beef I have with freestyle elements being limited at my level is that (for some strange reason) I can execute a fast flying camel, but my lutz is just so-so (always been a pretty good spinner, but not a strong jumper). Recently, they made the rule of no flying spins at Bronze level.....sigh....wish that could've been no lutzes at Bronze ;->. Anyway, they took away the one advanced spin that I had in my arsenal!!!!

3. What would happen if we limited the components allowed in each competition level to the components required at the corresponding test level (ie., Bronze moves at Bronze, Silver moves at Silver, etc....ISI does this I believe). This doesn't change the problem we have with returning kid skaters, but I can tell you that I would be much more motivated by seeing the same moves that I did in competition, maybe better executed, then I am by seeing someone competing at my level with Novice moves. The former is much more reachable for me with some hard work.

4. With the introduction of Adult MIF, I have definitely seen a higher level of skating at my level (bronze/silver). So then, tell me again why aren't we allowing Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals? Maybe we could encourage more participation at AN if we included this group?

5. I really enjoy AN being all-inclusive. It was built that way from the beginning. I'm pretty sure that I remember the main USFSA headline about Adult Nationals was the huge number of starts we had back then. We could totally brag about how adult skating was becoming huge and that we had this one place where we could all get together.....so the answer to "so what if AN is only 400 starts?" is exactly what Flo said earlier.....and the sheer number of participants is part of what made AN great. It made you feel like you were part of something big. Don't get me wrong, 400 is still a lot, but I think AN numbers dwindling is a definite concern.

Isk8NYC

05-15-2009, 10:42 PM

1. Why can someone who has passed their Gold moves, compete below Gold level freestyle? The last time I checked, a freestyle program has jumps, spins AND footwork. Does it make sense to limit the freestyle elements at the lower levels, but not the footwork executed? Would that put dancers or synchro skaters at a disadvantage since they focus on MITF and those discipline tests, but may not be as strong in Freestyle? Would putting a limit, say "max. one MITF test ahead" be achievable or would it shut out skaters who've focused on MITF and Ice Dance, for example?

3. What would happen if we limited the components allowed in each competition level to the components required at the corresponding test level (ie., Bronze moves at Bronze, Silver moves at Silver, etc....ISI does this I believe). ISI Freestyle tests include the required "dance step sequence" in the skills for the test. They don't have separate MITF testing. Once you pass ISI Delta, you can do any/all of the tracks with no restrictions. (Figures, Dance, Couples, Pairs, Freestyle, etc.)

This is a great conversation, everyone. Thanks for contributing. Please continue to do so.

flo

05-15-2009, 11:16 PM

Interesting idea of limiting jumps/spins/ and moves for competition. Keeping up with the levels and elements would be interesting as well.

I do like AN being inclusive. We're adults and for the majority of us, we have adult lives with all that comes with them. We're not able to spend the time and often the $$ that the kids/parents put forth. We enter fewer events, and as such we do want our events to be a great experience. This of course doesn't mean we all expect to medal, but we do expect a reasonable opportunity.

What really needs to be encouraged is, like Flying Camel, each skater testing and competing at the proper level. More publicity in the Skating magazine on what adult skaters are doing at each level, and yes if they are adults or returning kids could bring this to the attention of the skaters as well as the coaches.

lskater

05-15-2009, 11:32 PM

High moves tests aren't everything competitively. Passing my Junior Moves two years ago didn't stop me from finishing 9th out of 11 in Silver 1 at this year's ANs.

To put this in perspective, at least 3 of the ladies that placed above you have passed (or are currently taking) their SENIOR moves.

vesperholly

05-16-2009, 01:25 AM

1. Why can someone who has passed their Gold moves, compete below Gold level freestyle? The last time I checked, a freestyle program has jumps, spins AND footwork. Does it make sense to limit the freestyle elements at the lower levels, but not the footwork executed?
Simply put, because they have not passed the Gold FS test. The moves and FS tests require different elements. In the USFS system, passing moves does not qualify a skater in freestyle.
To put this in perspective, at least 3 of the ladies that placed above you have passed (or are currently taking) their SENIOR moves.
Who has passed Senior moves? As far as I know, there are several of us who have passed Junior and are actively working on Senior. And if they have, that's great. Good for them for bringing competition to the event. I was beaten by people who have high level moves ... AND by skaters who have only Silver moves. All I'm saying is, having a high level moves test does not necessarily guarantee competitive freestyle success, and for that reason, moves tests should not be the basis for excluding skaters.

patatty

05-16-2009, 06:07 AM

What would happen if we limited the components allowed in each competition level to the components required at the corresponding test level (ie., Bronze moves at Bronze, Silver moves at Silver, etc....ISI does this I believe).

The logistical problem with this is that you need a MIF test passed before you can pass the next freestyle test, so somebody in Silver who wants to move up to Gold has to pass the Gold MIF test first, and then the Gold free. Limiting the MIF to the same level as the free would prevent this skater from competing at all in between passing the moves test and the corresponding freestyle test, unless they skated up a level (which isn't allowed at some competitions). I had a full year in between my gold MIF and free tests.

I don't think that moves tests should be limited, because one of the great things about skating is that there is an avenue for everybody to continue working and improving, whether it be freestyle, moves, dance or synchro. Right now, my moves and free are the same level (just having passed gold free and failed intermediate moves) but I hope to pass some higher moves tests in the future. However, I doubt I would ever be ready to move up to standard track freestyle. Double jumps just aren't really happening for me, at least yet, and I'm not getting any younger. If further moves tests were off-limits for me, It would eliminate a whole part of skating that I want to explore and improve upon. I don't begrudge the skaters at my level with awesome moves - watching them just makes me motivated to get better, because it's something that could realistically happen, rather than getting a bielmann spin or a double loop, which probably won't happen.

flying~camel

05-16-2009, 06:46 AM

IMHO, MIF should be taken into consideration when determining Interp levels.

If you've passed 1 Silver dance, you have to skater Masters Interp, so why not have a similar rule for MIF?

Something like, if you've passed Gold FS, Intermediate MIF and/or 1 Silver dance, you must skate Masters interp.

flying~camel

05-16-2009, 06:48 AM

Who has passed Senior moves? As far as I know, there are several of us who have passed Junior and are actively working on Senior.

Yeah, I know 3 out of the 4 Silver I medalists, and only 1 of them is working on Senior MIF.

Stormy

05-16-2009, 06:53 AM

Stormy

05-16-2009, 07:04 AM

To put this in perspective, at least 3 of the ladies that placed above you have passed (or are currently taking) their SENIOR moves.

Who? Rochelle's the only one I know of.

Skittl1321

05-16-2009, 07:51 AM

All I'm saying is, having a high level moves test does not necessarily guarantee competitive freestyle success, and for that reason, moves tests should not be the basis for excluding skaters.

I did not think it should be a basis of excluding skaters, but a basis of grouping them. Obviously the competitive level is based on your freestyle test, but I think your moves test (assuming you can still skate to that ability, and haven't reached an age where the tests don't really mean what the used to) is a better judge of the sub-level you skate at then your age. Because even if you have no double and can't sit on your sit spin, if you have junior moves- then one would assume your speed, flow, power, and the footwork you can execute is higher than someone with silver moves.

Once I test bronze it's unlikely I'll ever get to silver. I am not a jumper. But I really think if I can get over my fear of turning to the left there is nothing stopping me from having senior MITF in 30 years. I do not think moves tests should exclude.

ETA: Don't give me credit- it wasn't my idea :)

Isk8NYC

05-16-2009, 08:33 AM

Skittl - that's a clever idea. It doesn't exclude, just organizes fairly. There have to be enough skaters to create multiple groups. Would you expect to have places for each of these groups, or would that be a runoff?

I'm very good at culling and analyzing data. If we can gather the entry forms / results (preferably electronic) for AN, I'll take a crack at creating a database that can answer some of the questions we've been asking.

Does the USFSA handle all adult competition registrations or are they handled by the LOC in some cases. I know they do for the sectionals and nationals, I meant the Adult Opens and adult entries in other open competitions.

phoenix

05-16-2009, 09:02 AM

I think the idea of organizing by test is a good one. That would have been a very good thing this year in solo dance--with the combined levels, we had a huge range of abilities within each level (bronze, silver, gold).

For example, in my event (gold), you compete that level if you've passed 2 pre-golds, up through internationals. I know one competitor commented he was glad we're not doing Starlight next year because he passed that when it was still an international dance. Well, that rule change was about 6 years ago, meaning he was through his golds & working on internationals at least that long ago. Meanwhile, I just passed my 2nd pre-gold in August. Do you think we are even on the same planet with regards to skating ability??

It would make FAR more sense to group our event by tests passed rather than age. --especially those events where you don't have enough entries to do the class I, II, III split.

*I'd also like to add that I agree, this year's AN was really friendly and comfortable, for whatever reason, and I enjoyed it so much. If that was the result of lower numbers (and I still consider 400 starts pretty huge!), then I wish it would stay that way! I had so much more fun this year than in Chicago, which felt huge and cold & I felt incredibly insignificant.

flying~camel

05-16-2009, 09:17 AM

Does the USFSA handle all adult competition registrations or are they handled by the LOC in some cases.

AN registration is completely handled by USFS.

flying~camel

05-16-2009, 09:20 AM

*I'd also like to add that I agree, this year's AN was really friendly and comfortable, for whatever reason, and I enjoyed it so much. If that was the result of lower numbers (and I still consider 400 starts pretty huge!), then I wish it would stay that way! I had so much more fun this year than in Chicago, which felt huge and cold & I felt incredibly insignificant.

Thanks! :)

We had anticipated 500-600 skaters, so from the LOC side, we were ready to accommodate more than 400. Besides, we had about the same number of starts as AN 08. :)

Isk8NYC

05-16-2009, 10:16 AM

Does the USFSA handle all adult competition registrations or are they handled by the LOC in some cases. I know they do [USFSA handles entries] for the sectionals and nationals, I meant the Adult Opens and adult entries in other open competitions.AN registration is completely handled by USFS.As I said in my original post, I knew that the USFSA handles AN (Adult NATIONALS) as well as sectionals.

My question was: "what about the other competitions other than sectionals and nationals?"

Sylvia

05-16-2009, 10:49 AM

My question was: "what about the other competitions other than sectionals and nationals?"
The host clubs that organize their respective competitions handle all entries, including adults.

lskater

05-16-2009, 11:16 AM

Yeah, I know 3 out of the 4 Silver I medalists, and only 1 of them is working on Senior MIF.

If you don't believe me, do some research on the internet....I'm not speculating on this.

vesperholly

05-16-2009, 11:37 AM

If you don't believe me, do some research on the internet....I'm not speculating on this.
Well, it seems like you've already done the research, so why don't you just tell us?

lskater

05-16-2009, 11:39 AM

Well, it seems like you've already done the research, so why don't you just tell us?

Nevermind......

Sorry for even bringing it up...I just think it's funny that we're discussing whether or not people who have passed their Junior and Senior MIF are skating at a certain level.......if we were discussing Junior and Senior freestyle, I wonder if it would be a different story......

lskater

05-16-2009, 11:42 AM

Nevermind......

Sorry for even bringing it up...I just think it's funny that we're discussing whether or not people who have passed their Junior and Senior MIF are skating at a certain level.......if we were discussing Junior and Senior freestyle, I wonder if it would be a different story......

And as a practice, I wouldn't start listing names.....I did the research to find out if the basis to my initial argument was sound, not to start listing the names of the people who (or are working on) their Senior moves..

Skittl1321

05-16-2009, 11:59 AM

Nevermind......

Sorry for even bringing it up...I just think it's funny that we're discussing whether or not people who have passed their Junior and Senior MIF are skating at a certain level.......if we were discussing Junior and Senior freestyle, I wonder if it would be a different story......

Of course it would be a different story. Freestyle determines the level they skate in, moves tests do not. An adult dancer may have high moves tests and not even have a loop.

If they passed Jr or Sr freestyle they would without a doubt be in those levels. (And then comes the issue of when they did that 30 years ago and can't do those elements anymore, and are essentially pushed out of competition).

Debbie S

05-16-2009, 03:11 PM

1. Why can someone who has passed their Gold moves, compete below Gold level freestyle? As Stormy said, passing the MIF doesn't give you that level's FS skills. I'm Bronze level, and test-level at that, plus I've been dealing with an ankle problem for almost a year and have curtailed my jumping, and I'm working on Gold MIF. I will never be able to do an axel (b/c I'm not a jumper and I'm never going to try to learn it) so what you're telling me is that I shouldn't be allowed to compete. A Bronze program is 1:50 and there's only so many footwork and transition moves you can do when you're trying to fit in 4 jumps and 2 or 3 spins. And the fact is, under 6.0, it's the jumps that are most important, spins are secondary and connecting steps/footwork are kind of an afterthought. I could go out and do counters and rockers in Bronze (not that I can actually do those turns yet but just throwing that out there) and have a loop as my hardest jump and no camel spin and I'd probably finish last.

I've competed against Bronze skaters with rockers and brackets and split jumps in their footwork sequences. It has made me motivated to learn those elements myself. I think the current restrictions on jumps and spins as you move through the levels makes sense. If you want to do a flying camel that badly, move up to Silver. Really, it sounds like your main beef is not that elements aren't restricted, but that they're not restricted in a way that plays to your strengths. Well, unfortunately, the rules aren't determined by 1 person's needs; they're determined by what a large number of people decided was a logical progression between the levels.

With the introduction of Adult MIF, I have definitely seen a higher level of skating at my level (bronze/silver). So then, tell me again why aren't we allowing Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals? Maybe we could encourage more participation at AN if we included this group?Where were you 3 years ago when a group of us had a petition going to add Pre-Bronze to AN? :) I still think it's a good idea that would encourage more participation in AN and probably in local comps as well. As Flo pointed out, there are more barriers to making it to AN now than when AN first started, and if people are discouraged by having to pass 4 tests instead of 1 or 2, then having Pre-Bronze at AN could solve that problem.

The reason why it's never passed is b/c there has been a lot of opposition from adult skaters (mostly high level, from what I've seen) who think having Pre-Bronze skaters at AN would diminish the competition, horrify the judges about adult skating, take away the sense of accomplishment of getting to Bronze (funny, I never heard anyone say that having Bronze at AN lessened the accomplishment of getting to Silver.....), and possibly cause the downfall of adult skating and life on planet Earth (OK, I'm exaggerating about that last one, but based on some comments I read on this board at the time, you'd think that was going to happen).

To all the people out there opposed to Pre-Bronze at AN b/c the sight of Pre-Bronze skating is so horrifying, I say don't go watch. :twisted:

IMHO, MIF should be taken into consideration when determining Interp levels. The problem with that is there are only 2 Interp levels, so unless you're going to create a 3rd (or 4th) Interp level, you'd have too much of a range at the higher end. If you say, for example, that anyone who's passed Gold MIF must skate Masters Interp, then you could have a skater like me skating against Senior skaters who have been skating since they were 5. Gold MIF is nowhere near Senior MIF. And then you've got the FS skills issue discussed above. Are there axels allowed in Masters Interp? Flying camels? Even if not, lutzes, flips, and combo spins with multiple position changes and variations are nothing for Senior-level skaters, whereas in Adult Interp you usually see only sals and toes, maybe a loop, and spins tend to be simple.

flo

05-16-2009, 03:20 PM

Interp has it's own problems, but it's better than it use to be in that all levels were together! At least there's two now.

As far as jumps under 6.0, I'm not sure I agree that "they are the most important and edges an afterthought". I'm sure my medals in bronze and silver at AN were not for my jumps and spins, but for my edges (and I don't have any moves tests). Since I don't have any moves tests, I'd probaby be considered to be at my fs level.

If the numbers continued to fall, I would be for adding pre-bronze to the mix. I'd also limit the number of events to 3 and not 4. I think this would decrease the number of drops on event day.

vesperholly

05-16-2009, 04:05 PM

The problem with that is there are only 2 Interp levels, so unless you're going to create a 3rd (or 4th) Interp level, you'd have too much of a range at the higher end. If you say, for example, that anyone who's passed Gold MIF must skate Masters Interp, then you could have a skater like me skating against Senior skaters who have been skating since they were 5. Gold MIF is nowhere near Senior MIF. And then you've got the FS skills issue discussed above. Are there axels allowed in Masters Interp? Flying camels? Even if not, lutzes, flips, and combo spins with multiple position changes and variations are nothing for Senior-level skaters, whereas in Adult Interp you usually see only sals and toes, maybe a loop, and spins tend to be simple.
All interp, adult or masters, follow the same rules - no axels. Spins are not limited. I watched quite a few Masters interps and the technical difficulty was nowhere near what you'd see in a Masters freestyle event. Most skaters did one or two jumps and one, maybe two spins.

I think there ought to be some parity in interp in regards to dance tests and moves tests. I kind of think it's silly that I have to skate Masters Interp because I have passed a Silver dance, NOT because I passed Junior moves. You could theoretically have a skater who has passed Senior moves in Adult interp, if they were in Silver freestyle and had no dances. Considering interp is all about "using skating skills to develop a theme and interpret the music" (straight from the rulebook), moves test would be a critical element of that rule.

My instinct would be, if a skater has passed Intermediate moves, they would be in Masters interp. Intermediate FS in the qualifier for Masters FS. Thoughts? I think I will formally suggest this to the adult committee through the proper channels. :)

Debbie S

05-16-2009, 04:08 PM

As far as jumps under 6.0, I'm not sure I agree that "they are the most important and edges an afterthought". Actually, my exact quote was "under 6.0, it's the jumps that are most important, spins are secondary and connecting steps/footwork are kind of an afterthought."

Of course, edges are important - hey, when you land jumps, you need to be on an edge. :) But particularly in Bronze, where most skaters are adult-onset, my experience has been that jumps generally determine placement, with spins being secondary. Skating skills matter when placing skaters with the same jump content, so yes, they are important, but they really can't make up for not having the jumps of the top skaters in the group, unless those skaters have very weak skating skills. But in Bronze, there tends to not be too much variation, at least from what I've seen in the past 5 years or so. Perhaps it was different before the MIF requirements.

Isk8NYC

05-16-2009, 04:24 PM

...and possibly cause the downfall of adult skating and life on planet Earth ...It's the crystals, captain! They can't take it - it's disrupting the time-space continuum!!.... Thanks for the laugh.

The host clubs that organize their respective competitions handle all entries, including adults.
Thanks, that's what I thought, but I wasn't certain.

flying~camel

05-16-2009, 07:14 PM

lskater

05-16-2009, 07:32 PM

As Stormy said, passing the MIF doesn't give you that level's FS skills. I'm Bronze level, and test-level at that, plus I've been dealing with an ankle problem for almost a year and have curtailed my jumping, and I'm working on Gold MIF. I will never be able to do an axel (b/c I'm not a jumper and I'm never going to try to learn it) so what you're telling me is that I shouldn't be allowed to compete.

Actually, I'm not saying that at all. I'm Bronze level working on my Gold moves as well. Are you saying that you don't think you can be competitive at Gold without an axel?

Really, it sounds like your main beef is not that elements aren't restricted, but that they're not restricted in a way that plays to your strengths. Well, unfortunately, the rules aren't determined by 1 person's needs; they're determined by what a large number of people decided was a logical progression between the levels.

Geesh, that isn't what I'm saying at all. I was just using it as an example of elements that, for one reason or another, are not allowed at the Bronze level even though Novice or even higher level footwork is allowed.

Where were you 3 years ago when a group of us had a petition going to add Pre-Bronze to AN? :) I still think it's a good idea that would encourage more participation in AN and probably in local comps as well. As Flo pointed out, there are more barriers to making it to AN now than when AN first started, and if people are discouraged by having to pass 4 tests instead of 1 or 2, then having Pre-Bronze at AN could solve that problem.

Actually, I signed that petition......

lskater

05-16-2009, 07:55 PM

Sorry, I thought of one other thing. Up to a couple years ago, flying spins were allowed at Bronze, but then the restriction happened. Does anyone know why flying spins were restricted? I can't seem to find anything about it under the forum search function

phoenix

05-16-2009, 08:23 PM

Actually, I'm not saying that at all. I'm Bronze level working on my Gold moves as well. Are you saying that you don't think you can be competitive at Gold without an axel?

I believe she's saying she'll never skate gold, because the axel is a requirement to pass the gold FS test.

Debbie S

05-16-2009, 08:37 PM

Actually, I'm not saying that at all. I'm Bronze level working on my Gold moves as well. Are you saying that you don't think you can be competitive at Gold without an axel?Without an axel, you can't pass the Gold test (at least not without an extremely lenient judging panel). And in Gold Ladies II, I would not be competitive w/o an axel. I would also not be competitive in Silver, b/c I don't have a flip, lutz, or camel spin (and obviously I couldn't even pass the test) - heck, I'm not even competitive in Bronze, which is why I've stopped competing. Since you've passed Silver MIF, by your own argument, you should be skating Silver FS - so why aren't you, especially since you seem so attached to the flying camel? :??

Sorry, I thought of one other thing. Up to a couple years ago, flying spins were allowed at Bronze, but then the restriction happened. Does anyone know why flying spins were restricted? I can't seem to find anything about it under the forum search functionI'm not sure either, but I think it happened when they created specific WBP requirements for the adult levels, as part of the (eventual) implementation of IJS for Gold and Masters at AN. I think the Adult Committee was responding to complaints, comments, etc, that they'd heard over the years about the elements being performed at the various levels. I think people felt that flying spins were too advanced for Bronze and that if a skater has a flying spin, they should really be skating in Silver. Since Bronze is the 'beginner' level at AN, they didn't want to discourage newbies by having them compete against skaters that were so much more advanced.

Flying spins are also not allowed in No-Test on the standard track, and the jump elements in No-Test are the same as Bronze - through lutz, no axel. I guess TPTB in adult skating decided to match the jump and spin rules for the standard track.

lskater

05-16-2009, 09:25 PM

Since you've passed Silver MIF, by your own argument, you should be skating Silver FS - so why aren't you, especially since you seem so attached to the flying camel?

Man, this was never personal. Actually I failed the Silver Freestyle because of "1 rotation short on both camel spins".

And I'm NOT ATTACHED to the flying camel.......I was just using it as an example of an element .......

Nevermind.......I'm done.........

Stormy

05-17-2009, 08:27 AM

My instinct would be, if a skater has passed Intermediate moves, they would be in Masters interp. Intermediate FS in the qualifier for Masters FS. Thoughts? I think I will formally suggest this to the adult committee through the proper channels. :)

I disagree, because of the same argument. Good MIF and dance skills don't always correspond to good FS skills. It's not out of the realm of possibility a Bronze FS will have Intermediate moves. Should they be skating against Emily Naperkoski and Alexandra Dunne-Bryant in Interp? NO WAY.

Isn't Gold the qualifier for Masters Interp? Becky and Julie were in Masters Interp and they don't have Intermediate FS.

Stormy

05-17-2009, 08:30 AM

And as a practice, I wouldn't start listing names.....I did the research to find out if the basis to my initial argument was sound, not to start listing the names of the people who (or are working on) their Senior moves..

I'll list names if you want, it's no secret who was in the level. Jocelyn and Rochelle are working on Senior moves. Rachel is working on Junior. Who are the others?

techskater

05-17-2009, 09:13 AM

Actually, I'm not saying that at all. I'm Bronze level working on my Gold moves as well. Are you saying that you don't think you can be competitive at Gold without an axel?

No, you can't pass your Gold FS test without an Axel or at least a reasonable facsimile of a rotated one.

Stormy

05-17-2009, 10:06 AM

.....or at least a reasonable facsimile of a rotated one.

Hey, I resemble that remark! :)

jazzpants

05-17-2009, 12:36 PM

If the numbers continued to fall, I would be for adding pre-bronze to the mix. I'd also limit the number of events to 3 and not 4. I think this would decrease the number of drops on event day.I had a feeling something like that was gonna happen with the number of lower level skaters dropping when the Pre-Bronze at AN petition actually happened. I also noticed that there were fellow skater friends who were competing a lot when I was struggling in Pre-Bronze that had either stopped competing or stopped skating altogether. I did not see as many newbie Pre-Bronze and Bronze skaters moving up and I did not see many Pre-Bronze skaters coming in to take up the lower FS spots at Skate SF. So I knew back then that there were problems with getting more lower level skaters out there to compete. By the time I made it to AN in 2007, I saw two groups of 19 skaters in Bronze III FS ladies QR instead of the 4 groups that I saw back around 2002-2003? And THIS YEAR!!?!?! Sheesh!!! 9 skaters in each Bronze ladies QR?!?!?! 8O THAT is SAD!!!

I'm gonna keep an eye out on Skate SF this year to see who's competing. I know it won't be me b/c I'm taking a hiatus to get my Silver moves out of the way... and just to have SOME MONEY in the bank!!! :lol:

BTW: I am well aware from my competition experience post-Bronze FS that I need to be competitive that I need to have more higher level moves and even ice dance background to be competitive at Bronze or Silver! I *get* it! It's exactly why I want to take a hiatus from competing to work on those things. :twisted: (Well, that and I want to save up for new purple skates! :P ) I know I'll never get around to getting those things if I keep getting distracted b/c I have to work on a program or get ready to compete.

It's the crystals, captain! They can't take it - it's disrupting the time-space continuum!!.... Thanks for the laugh.LMAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: (Hey! What can I say? I'm married to a Trekkie -- or is it Trekker now? :?? )

vesperholly

05-17-2009, 02:41 PM

I disagree, because of the same argument. Good MIF and dance skills don't always correspond to good FS skills. It's not out of the realm of possibility a Bronze FS will have Intermediate moves. Should they be skating against Emily Naperkoski and Alexandra Dunne-Bryant in Interp? NO WAY.
But if that same Bronze FS skater has also passed the Rocker Foxtrot, for example, they would be forced into Masters interp.

Isn't Gold the qualifier for Masters Interp? Becky and Julie were in Masters Interp and they don't have Intermediate FS.
I meant Intermediate FS was the qualifier to Masters freestyle events - Championship Masters Int/Nov, Masters Novice, etc.

Masters interp requirements are meeting the standards for Gold FS OR passing one Silver dance. If a single silver dance (which is arguably easier than many high moves tests) forces a skaters into Masters interp, why don't high moves tests? Maybe it should be Novice MIF?

Hannahclear

05-17-2009, 02:47 PM

I think the rules regarding levels for Adult events are fair and working in the broadest sense, maybe with a few tweaks needed.

Rules make the sport fair, but part of the nature of a sport is that it's not unfair for someone to be skating at a higher level than you. Subdividing AN into too many groups to ensure that someone with only Bronze Moves and FS isn't competing against someone who passed Juvenile or Intermediate Moves would just spoil the whole concept of a broad and large adult event.

I say this as someone who struggled to pass Silver Moves and will probably be outclassed at that competitive level by skaters with higher moves tests, along with better jumps and spins. I'm ok with that. It is a competition.

techskater

05-17-2009, 04:56 PM

But if that same Bronze FS skater has also passed the Rocker Foxtrot, for example, they would be forced into Masters interp.

Masters interp requirements are meeting the standards for Gold FS OR passing one Silver dance. If a single silver dance (which is arguably easier than many high moves tests) forces a skaters into Masters interp, why don't high moves tests? Maybe it should be Novice MIF?

I agree with passing Intermediate MIF being a qualifyer for Masters Interp. A skater with Intermediate moves can SKATE at a Masters Interp level and that's what interp is about - skating skills. Then again, you do have Regional/state to state differences in what the passing standards are.

techskater

05-17-2009, 04:59 PM

Hey, I resemble that remark! :)

Glad I could provide a moment of humor on this for you, Stormy. It IS true that some judges have passed the Gold FS test with a two-footed or cheated Axel.

daisies

05-17-2009, 08:30 PM

Lots to plow through...

For example, in my event (gold), you compete that level if you've passed 2 pre-golds, up through internationals.
FYI, you only need to pass one pre-gold to do the current Gold solo dance level.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=42986

And the fact is, under 6.0, it's the jumps that are most important, spins are secondary and connecting steps/footwork are kind of an afterthought.
As a judge and skater, I do not agree with that at all. In 6.0 it's the complete package. Some judges may focus on jumps, some may focus on spins, others may focus on basic skating. But it's a generalization to say jumps are most important. All programs are mainly composed of jumps, because that is what the WBP requirements call for, but if you can't spin and you can't skate on true edges, you're not going to fare that well. Hey, you can take me for an example -- I placed second in Championship Masters Int/Nov at sectionals, which was 6.0, and I didn't have one double jump in my program; everyone else did. So if jumps were the most important, I wouldn't have been up there!

I've competed against Bronze skaters with rockers and brackets and split jumps in their footwork sequences. It has made me motivated to learn those elements myself.
See, I think that's awesome. Good for you!

I think the current restrictions on jumps and spins as you move through the levels makes sense. If you want to do a flying camel that badly, move up to Silver.
Word.

The reason why it's never passed is b/c there has been a lot of opposition from adult skaters (mostly high level, from what I've seen) who think having Pre-Bronze skaters at AN would diminish the competition, horrify the judges about adult skating, take away the sense of accomplishment of getting to Bronze (funny, I never heard anyone say that having Bronze at AN lessened the accomplishment of getting to Silver.....), and possibly cause the downfall of adult skating and life on planet Earth (OK, I'm exaggerating about that last one, but based on some comments I read on this board at the time, you'd think that was going to happen).
I know you said you're exaggerating, but none of this is true and it would be better if such speculation wasn't disseminated on a public forum.

I kind of think it's silly that I have to skate Masters Interp because I have passed a Silver dance, NOT because I passed Junior moves.
The reason there are dance tests applied to Interp at all is so that dancers who don't free skate can participate without having to take any FS tests. And you can't lump all dancers into the same group (how would it look of Julie Keith or Mike Ricigliano was in Adult Interp and not Masters?), so that's why there's a cutoff between Adult and Masters, and one Silver is half-way to Gold -- that's the only reason.

Standard track allows a Pre-Pre kid to test all the way up to Senior MIF, and they don't make that kid compete in Intermediate artistic. Rather, they encourage that kid to take their MIF as far as they can go so that they better their basic skating. That is one of the Adult Skating Committee's goals as well, so the last thing we want to do is discourage anyone from improving their basic skating.

I think the rules regarding levels for Adult events are fair and working in the broadest sense, maybe with a few tweaks needed. Rules make the sport fair, but part of the nature of a sport is that it's not unfair for someone to be skating at a higher level than you. Subdividing AN into too many groups to ensure that someone with only Bronze Moves and FS isn't competing against someone who passed Juvenile or Intermediate Moves would just spoil the whole concept of a broad and large adult event. I say this as someone who struggled to pass Silver Moves and will probably be outclassed at that competitive level by skaters with higher moves tests, along with better jumps and spins. I'm ok with that. It is a competition.
THANK YOU!

Debbie S

05-17-2009, 08:59 PM

I know you said you're exaggerating, but none of this is true and it would be better if such speculation wasn't disseminated on a public forum.Save for the part about the downfall of adult skating and life on Earth, I was only summarizing what was said during the debate here on this "public forum" about 3 years ago, when the petition to add Pre-Bronze to AN was discussed. If someone has more time than me, they can search through the archives and read that thread (I think it ended up being about 10 pages long).

daisies

05-17-2009, 09:11 PM

Save for the part about the downfall of adult skating and life on Earth, I was only summarizing what was said during the debate here on this "public forum" about 3 years ago, when the petition to add Pre-Bronze to AN was discussed. If someone has more time than me, they can search through the archives and read that thread (I think it ended up being about 10 pages long).
Thanks for clarifying.

Stormy

05-18-2009, 07:03 AM

Glad I could provide a moment of humor on this for you, Stormy. It IS true that some judges have passed the Gold FS test with a two-footed or cheated Axel.

The ironoic part is I passed Juvenile a year and a half ago, the judges knew me and knew I was just taking the test to have it It was a cheated axel and they mercy passed it. I've failed Gold twice with the same cheated axel, but now have to skate Gold anyways because of my Juvenile test. But it does just push me to improve my skating and be a Gold skater.

RachelSk8er

05-18-2009, 07:24 AM

If you don't believe me, do some research on the internet....I'm not speculating on this.

Can I please see the "results" of your research?

Rochelle passed senior. She is the ONLY one with her senior moves test. For the record, she also does not have a clean axel, but is trying to get it ASAP to move up to gold for next year.
I *think* Danielle is working on novice, I thought she mentioned testing soon when we were talking in the locker room.
Kim is working on Intermediate.
Brandy has silver, dont' know if she passed her gold (she tried to move up to gold but failed one of the tests, not sure if it was her moves or free).
I have novice, aiming to test junior by fall.
Jocelyn is working on senior.
I think Inna is working on Intermediate.

Not sure about the rest. But from the top to the bottom of the placements, there are girls with higher moves levels, and girls only one higher.

Some of us dance--Jocelyn and I are on pre-golds, Rochelle on pre-silvers, Carolyn on pre-bronze or bronze (not sure she did compete bronze solo though).

You really can't limit moves tests with regard to freestyle...I know those of us who have skated our whole lives but have done little or no freestyle are few and far between. But could you imagine if moves were limited to, say, one level above freestyle level? That meant I'd have to come in an masters intermediate last year when I started freestyle just months before ANs. I, quite frankly, barely passed my bronze free to make it to AN for 08 because I could NOT do a back scratch, they let me slide with a RBO triple twizzle that didn't travel much because I was a strong skater. I had JUST gotten my lutz before ANs, and it wasn't even good, neither was my camel-sit that I had just learned. There was no way I could have even done silver at my first ANs in terms of testing--I only sort of had a camel spin (and failed my silver MIF when I tested right after ANs because of that). After a year of hard work I'm catching the freestyle up to my moves/dance levels, but there is still no way I'm ready for gold yet, let alone intermediate (no axel, iffy flying camel because my back camel is very shaky still). I'm just getting over the fish out of water "holy crap where are my teammates" feeling when I compete freestyle.
Basically by saying there need to be limits to make it easier for the people on the lower end of levels to be more competitive, you're making it harder for the people who are competitive at their current levels to stay competitive. We're adults. We know when to move up. All of the top 4 from Bronze I in 08 moved up to Silver for 09 (with the exception of Jen, who was off the ice for various reasons and she did not compete). Out of the silver I podium this year, I know 3 of the top 4 will be moving up or at least trying to. Again though, silver is a place where you can get stuck (no axel, no gold test). (Really though, is the person on here complaining about how good our group was someone who was even in our group? I know most of these girls and I will say that we LIKED having it be a very strong, competitive group.)

I disagree, because of the same argument. Good MIF and dance skills don't always correspond to good FS skills. It's not out of the realm of possibility a Bronze FS will have Intermediate moves. Should they be skating against Emily Naperkoski and Alexandra Dunne-Bryant in Interp? NO WAY.

For the record though, Emily is not really a freestyle skater. She did about 15 years of synchro just at the senior level alone, competed at worlds twice, has her gold dance test and senior moves. She quit freestyle as a kid (no clue what level FS she was on) but she's had to spin in synchro programs. She does coach freestyle, and to a skater whose skating skills are just that good, bringing back a few single jumps is nothing.

This is what happened to me at my first AN in '08. Bronze free, had two silver dances. I did NOT look like a masters skater, lack of freestyle skills in comparison aside, my nerves got to my basic skating skills and finished dead last. This year I'm proud to say I actually held my own against those girls, my entire group was strong and marks were all over.

I think making intermediate and above moves do masters interp is fine. Or even novice moves and above. If you have to do masters because you passed one silver dance, you should have to do it because you have intermediate + moves, too. I really don't see a reason why someone like Rochelle shouldn't have been competing masters interp this year rather than adult when she obviously would have fit in fine with the Alex/Emily/Amber/Julie/Rachel/Becky show (i.e. Masters I). (Not complaining about Rochelle being in adult by any means, those are the rules, but just using someone like her as an example).

blue111moon

05-18-2009, 08:04 AM

Warning History Lesson Ahead:

Regarding the dwindling numbers, I can say almost all of the people who were in Silver 2 and 3 with me back in the first five years ol AN were people who had started skating (as in Basic Skills level skating) after the age of 25. Almost all of them have either quit skating completely, moved to ISI, or have quit going to Adult Nationals.

Why?

Well, one reason is that the Adult Tests we passed back in the early 90's bear NO resemblence to the current tests. The Silver Test that I passed in 1992 (at age 40 and passed with flying colors, I might add and way over the minimum passing mark :) ) would not pass Bronze now. Thanks to age and arthritis and injury, my skating level hasn't improved a whole lot and I'm struggling to hang onto what skills I have.

But back in the Beginning, I was middle of the pack and the fact that I didn't have a lutz didn't matter much because 90% of the women in my age group who'd started as adults didn't either. In fact that was pretty much the tip-off as the years went by: if someone in Silver 3 showed up with a good clean solid lutz, they'd probably started skating before the age of 25.

And then the rules changed. Suddenly axels were not only allowed but encouraged and people who had medalled in Silver 2 and 3 at Nationals were barely making it out qualifying rounds. They're skating skills hadn't changed, but their competition had. With axels allowed at Silver, the people who would have tested up to Gold as soon as they had one now had no reason to test up. And with the new tests added in, more of the Bronzes looked at the axels and lutz-loop-loop combos in Silver and said "Nope, I'm staying Bronze." The incentive to move up was gone, espcially for the older folks.

And after a few years, people forgot that there had been an earlier set of tests that people had passed and they just assumed that everyone in a group had passed the same Silver or Bronze test. I started to hear whispers of "How did she get into Silver? She can't even do a loop!" We;;l that's because when she took the Silver test, she didn't need a loop." And one by one the people I'd been skating with for more than a decade began to drop away with the idea that they were no long "good enough" to be in Silver.

As for what to do, I've given it a lot of though. While splitting groups by test date would be nice, I can't see USFS taking on that administration. What I think I'd like to see is giving those adults who tested under the old standard (any of the old standards) given a chance to be "reclassified" if they choose to. So those of us who passed Silver back in 1990-1996 might be able to drop back to Bronze. I can hear the howls of protest from the Bronzes, though, so it probably won't fly.

Or maybe the ISU Adult categories would work: they don't use test level at all, just list the number and type of elements that are allowed at each level. That doesn't always work either; every year there seems to be an obvious sandbagger or two to throw things off but at least you know going in pretty much what's going to be done on each level.

I don't know. But it's pretty obvious that as the levels of difficulty have risen at AN, the number of participants have declined (take out the number of starts for the solo dance events this year and compare to previous years). I think it would behoone the Adult Committe to ask why.

And to listen to the answers.

pairman2

05-18-2009, 08:37 AM

Bluemoon
You make a few good points but please clarify something: in 1992, you took an easier Silver test at 40 yrs of age. I think most of the discussion has been about younger age groups. Has the competition in your age group radically changed? Has there been an influx of skaters in your age bracket/silver level with significantly higher skills? I've been skating almost 15 years and I recall axels being put out in Silver even back in the beginning. If your competition has or acquired higher technical skills, where did they come from?

Stormy

05-18-2009, 09:20 AM

RachelSk8er

05-18-2009, 09:51 AM

flo

05-18-2009, 09:58 AM

Blue moon - exactly! Most of the people I started with have stopped competing, and those who remain and were competitive are no longer. The influx of the aging kid skaters with skills far beyond the test level into our age groups has been very frustrating.
I competed in silver and grew tired of the same situation year after year. I think it's a good idea to look at the test levels and qualify for your level based on your real test level, and not what it has morphed into. This is exactly what has happened in pairs. Basically I believe that you have to decide early on if you're interested in testing for competing or testing for testing.
I believe I took the fs tests before the changes - the silver may have been after - not sure, but I've no interest in even working on any higher fs or pair tests because of this mess. If I had the option of competing at a lower fs level, I'm not sure I would, because I medaled in bronze. I don't know if it would be fair to the new adult bronze skaters - the returning kids yes, but not the adults.

Rachel - we at higher age classes are not oppose to the influx of kid skaters if they enter at the appropriate level.

blue111moon

05-18-2009, 11:21 AM

I don't see why the influx of younger, former kid skaters is a bad thing? With the growth of collegiate skating opportunities, it is nothing but inevitable that we will see an increase in strong skaters in class I at all levels. Whether you started skating as a toddler, child or teenager, there is no reason to quit skating any more once you go off to college, because regardless of what level a skater is, they can compete intercollegiate conference. If they have a synchro team at their school and make it, they can participate in that. Increased participation in college skating leads to increased participation in adult skating. It's the way we're heading and it's a good thing.

I just don't get why a higher standard in class I seems to get some resentment from people in the older age classes. They aren't competing agaisnt us (unless at a smaller competition where age classes aren't split).

But the numbers aren't increasing. They're declining. The Former-kids skaters are/have been members of USFS. Their staying in only maintains the status quo or slows the drain. It doesn't ADD bodies to the roster. Only new people taking up the sport ADDS bodies.

And the influx of kid-skaters in Class 1 is driving out the addition of NEW Adult Skaters who look at these kids and think: "No way can I match that! She's been skating for 20 years and I've been skating for five!"

Which means there are fewer people to age up to Class 2 and Class 3 and Class 4. So the kids skaters age up into those levels and the adults who were THERE are being driven out. That's the long view from someone whose been an adult skater from almost 30 years now.

There is no place currently in the structure as it exists now for me and for the people like me who started the whole Adult Skating phenomenon. And that's a shame.

looplover

05-18-2009, 11:36 AM

And the influx of kid-skaters in Class 1 is driving out the addition of NEW Adult Skaters who look at these kids and think: "No way can I match that! She's been skating for 20 years and I've been skating for five!"

Ok but isn't that our problem (speaking as an adult-onset skater for the most part) and not theirs? Ultimately this is a sport. I'm definitely anti-sandbagging, but it sounds like sandbagging is different that what you're saying here.

It seems that class 1 kid skaters who have passed their bronze test for the most part aren't going to want to stay in bronze, anyway. They're going to want to move to silver and higher.

I totally see what you're saying if there were different testing standards when you passed, and can see why people might then switch to ISI. But I also think it's a choice of: 1) rising to the skill challenge, or 2) being ok with not qualifying/not being as competitive as the newer skaters who have axels for silver. I think it's a choice of being ok with doing the best that you can do - and maybe that best hasn't been reached just yet.

I didn't go to AN this year mainly because I couldn't afford it - I was also uncomfortable with going without a flip or lutz for bronze, but if I'd had the cash I would have gone anyway. With full acceptance of the fact that I likely wouldn't have qualified. I figure, I beat myself up enough in skating, why make the additional comparisons? It's sports. I've got enough problems making my programs look artistic in any way, the last thing I need to do is resent a co-competitor for having more experience than I.

I don't think the influx of kid skaters in Class 1 is really likely to drive out new adults in the long run. There will be adults who will also want to see if they can beat the kid skaters :twisted:. And some will.

singerskates

05-18-2009, 11:46 AM

Let's throw in a monkey wrench. What about the Canadian Adult skaters who passed tests in Canada in the last 10 years who come to compete in the USA. For example you're Adult Bronze categories say must have passed Adult Bronze or Preliminary FS test, but your tests are nothing like our tests over here.

Our Preliminary FS test here in Canada require us to do the following;

Elements in isolation
Bunny Hop
Waltz
Salchow
Loop
Flip
Toe Loop + Toe Loop combo
Forward Upright Spin (basic or corkscrew) 2 revs min
Forward Sitspin (90 degrees or less) 2 revs min
Forward Camel Spin 2 revs min
Upright Backspin 2 revs min (not sure on min)
Forward Left Spiral (choice of edge)
Forward Right Spiral (choice of edge)
Forward Perimeter Stroking with crosscuts on the ends
Backward Perimeter Stroking with crosscuts on the ends

Program Set to Music 1:30 min +/- 10 secs or 2 min +/- 10 secs
At least 3 jumps of a different nature min 1 full rotation
Min of 2 spins

Junior Bronze
Elements in Isolation
STROKING: 4 exercises (draw for direction then alternate):
• FORWARD OUTSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END: The
skater skates forward outside edges down the length of the rink and forward crosscuts on the ends.
• FORWARD INSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END: The
skater skates forward inside edges down the length of the rink and forward crosscuts on the ends.
• BACKWARD OUTSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END:
The skater skates backward outside edges down the length of the rink and backward crosscuts on the ends.
• BACKWARD INSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END: The
skater skates backward inside edges down the length of the rink and backward crosscuts on the ends.

JUMPS: Four jumps consisting of:
• Flip
• Lutz
• Axel or Walley
• Split

JUMP COMBINATIONS: Two jump combinations as follows:
• Salchow/Toe Loop
• Loop/Loop

SPINS: Three spins consisting of:
• One-Foot Upright Spin: Backward, corkscrew position, minimum of 3 rotations
• Flying Spin: Minimum of 3 rotations.
• Combination Spin: Minimum of 2 rotations in each position, minimum of 2 positions, optional change of foot.

FIELD MOVEMENTS: Backward Spiral (choice of edge)

PASSING REQUIREMENT: 12/14 elements satisfactory or better. All stroking
exercises must be satisfactory or better.

PART 2: PROGRAM (Rule 4304 (2) (b)): A free skating program to music:
(a) DURATION: 2.0 or 2.5 minutes (± 10 seconds).
(b) ELEMENTS: This program shall contain:
• JUMPS: A minimum of 4 different jumps of at least one rotation.
• SPINS: 2 different spins.
(c) PASSING REQUIREMENT:
(i) FOUR OF SIX CRITERIA SATISFACTORY OR BETTER: A satisfactory
evaluation or better in 4/6 of the following criteria.
• Use of Ice
• Use of Music
• Carriage/Line/Form
• Sureness of Skating Skills (excluding jumps and spins)
• Speed
• Program Composition

FURTHER PASSING REQUIREMENT: Sureness of Skating Skills must be
satisfactory or better.

This is why I've been competing Adult Bronze without having yet pasing Adult Preliminary but if I want to be really competitive I need to pass my coresponding test to your competion requirements. But all this changes once I pass Junior Bronze here in Canada. Then I may have the Axel and the Flying spins under my belt. It seems the higher you test in Canada there is more of a difference competitively between us Canadian adult skaters and US adult skaters. One saving grace though for the US skaters is that before you can move on to the next level in FS, you have to pass your Moves in the Field first. Most of you US Adult Skaters who compete have passed your Moves in the Field way beyond your coresponding freeskate level. There are many of us who haven't tested our Skills yet especially if we started out as adult onset skaters. And that's where those of us Canadians who compete in Adult Pre-Bronze to Adult Gold get kicked in the pants in the US.

singerskates

Stormy

05-18-2009, 12:03 PM

I don't think the influx of kid skaters in Class 1 is really likely to drive out new adults in the long run. There will be adults who will also want to see if they can beat the kid skaters :twisted:. And some will.

Yes, they will. Just look at the podium for Championship Gold. They very handily beat out the younger skaters who came in expecting to win.

flo

05-18-2009, 12:05 PM

Singer - perhaps when/if the rules are revised so they are equitable for US skaters it will be an easy leap to review the Canadian to US rules.

looplover - It's fine to be happy with doing your best, but this is a competition and as such you at least want to feel that you belong in your group.

Debbie S

05-18-2009, 12:17 PM

For example you're Adult Bronze categories say must have passed Adult Bronze or Preliminary FS test, but your tests are nothing like our tests over here.

Canadian adult skaters don't have to pass MIF tests? I thought Canadian adults took the same tests as the kids b/c there are no "Adult" tests, and I'm pretty sure the kids have to pass MIF, correct? Or are MIF woven into the FS test, based on what you posted above?

The Preliminary test you posted above sounds a lot like USFSA Preliminary. I believe Prelim requires a waltz, sal, loop, and flip, and a waltz-to combo. Sit and back upright spins. Music time is 1:30 +/- 10 secs. Spirals and stroking are required in the Pre-Prelim and Prelim MIF tests. A camel is not required until Pre-Juv - is the the Junior Bronze test the Pre-Juv/Silver equivalent? It sounds a lot like Pre-Juv, except for the flying spin, which is not required until Juv, I believe.

The Adult Bronze FS test in the U.S. requires a waltz-toe, sal, toe, and loop. Sit, forward upright, and back upright spins. Music limit 1:50. Sounds actually a tad easier than your Prelim test. Although 3 revs are required for all spins.

If you get "kicked in the pants" b/c your basic skating skills are lacking, then improve your basics. When you compete, if you want to win, you have to do what it takes to perform better than your competitors.

From what I have seen in Bronze, most skaters are also at the Bronze MIF level. Most who are competitive (lutz-loop, camel-sit, etc) move up to Silver after they pass Silver MIF, usually after a couple of years in Bronze. I know some older skaters that have stayed Bronze for a while, but they're not exactly demolishing their competitors right and left. I figure that if they're still in Bronze, that's where they are comfortable and/or they couldn't pass Silver MIF. I have passed Silver MIF and am working on Gold. My goal is to pass through Intermediate, but who knows. I will likely not take another FS test - if I do compete agin, I'll probably do Interp where my 'advanced' skills might make a difference....sorry, but I respectfully disagree with anyone who says jumps aren't the primary placement-driver in FS, at least in Bronze. I doubt a few brackets and rockers in my program will make up for the fact that my hardest jump is a loop (and a rather puny one at that) and I only do sit and upright spins (no camel). And especially given that in Bronze, most are adult-onset and we all have that awkwardness quality, so my brackets and rockers would look kind of scary anyway, lol.

singerskates

05-18-2009, 12:35 PM

I think it would be a good idea starting in the first year of change with only the Pre-Prelim FS/Adult Pre-Bronze FS level to not allow more than one level higher in Moves In The Field (ex. Adult Pre-Bronze FS may have no higher than Adult Bronze/Preliminary Moves In the Field)and each year afterwards change it for the next level (ex. year 2 Adult Bronze FS/Preliminary FS may have no higher than Adult Silver/PreJuv Moves In The Field). 3 year of implimentation for Adult Silver/PreJuv FS no higher than Adult Gold/Juv Moves In The Field. 4 year Adult Gold/Juv FS no higher than Intermediate Moves In The Field. But once you make it to Masters FS/Intermediate FS that's where the rule should stop and Moves In the Field should be wide open with at least having the min Intermediate Moves In The Field.

What do you think of that?

I think it's obvious that someone who would have Junior Moves In The Field competing in Adult Pre-Bronze/Pre-Prelim would beat out someone with just their Adult Bronze/Prelim Moves In The Field hands down no matter if the person with the Junior Moves had landed a single jump cleanly or not.
Reason is that with only have 4 jumping passes at most at the Pre-Prelim level you're in the air for maybe 6 seconds out of a 1:40 min program.

flo

05-18-2009, 12:36 PM

Hi Debbie,
I didn't mean that a absence of jumps at bronze would not not make a difference, but that they were not the deciding factor in my case. When I competed in bronze I figured that everyone could do the same jumps I had - including a lutz. There were then no specific jump requirements for the test or competition. I think there were two trains of thought then, skaters either packed their programs or whatever they did, they did well. There were 5 groups and I believe the top 4 went to finals. Out of the 75 or so in the group, the final group skaters had pretty similar jumps. I believe I won my group and was second overall because of the basic skating, connecting elements and edges.

I think you would be great in interp. I skate it now because I feel that with the balanced program rules and other reasons, there's little time to actually "skate" in fs programs.

looplover

05-18-2009, 12:38 PM

I doubt a few brackets and rockers in my program will make up for the fact that my hardest jump is a loop (and a rather puny one at that) and I only do sit and upright spins (no camel). And especially given that in Bronze, most are adult-onset and we all have that awkwardness quality, so my brackets and rockers would look kind of scary anyway, lol.

Hi, are you me? :lol::lol: I realized a couple of weeks before Easterns that my bracket was a three turn. I was SURE I was doing a bracket - nope, shallow three turn, ha! Well, it felt like a bracket...yeah.

I'll move way up in MIF before I ever pass, or take that Silver FS test. I could see myself passing Gold moves long before testing Silver FS. Because I'm not bothering with the axel until that flip and lutz are solid (though I suspect my axel will come easier than the flip and lutz...I'm an edge person and not a toe person). Then again nobody will ever think I'm sandbagging because the size of my flip and lutz will make it quite clear that work is needed.

My coach wisely always reminds me of the importance of basic skating skills, and says that it's the basic skating that makes the difference. I think that's what helped me out at easterns when I screwed up some other things (fall on loop, sit spin much higher than usual). I may not have a lutz, but I tend to skate with some power and flow.

SkateGuard

05-18-2009, 01:12 PM

:)My instinct would be, if a skater has passed Intermediate moves, they would be in Masters interp. Intermediate FS in the qualifier for Masters FS. Thoughts? I think I will formally suggest this to the adult committee through the proper channels. :)

I think it's a great idea to include MIF in the interp levels. And as a secondary item....what about if you pass a certain level of moves (silver, perhaps?), you can compete interp at ANs without a freestyle/dance test? It would help attract new skaters into ANs before they pass their bronze free....and help to get them to compete bronze once they pass.

As for the lower number of competitors this year, we have to remember that we had a huge economic dropoff, a presidential election, and huge layoffs right when the AN announcement was released. I knew in October that we'd have a smaller ANs....I think quite a few folks stayed home because taking a week off of work (or buying a plane ticket to Grand Rapids) was out of the question. Solo dance increased the starts and making ANs a financial success, even with challenges that were far beyond the LOC's control.

As much as some want to say that Adult Nationals is a competition, and "get over" the idea that you're not competitive.....the LOC still has to turn a profit, which is almost 100% dependent on entry fees. If there is a significant number of skaters (as jazzpants has so elequently described) dropping off the competitive track...it is very important to find out why, to see if there are tweaks to be made so that we keep ourselves viable.

Remember that when we look at pure numbers, that the age groups have changed twice--in 2006 and 2009--dramatically enough that the comparison may no longer be valid before those changes. We now have Gold III large enough that they often have qualifying groups, and it seems that Gold I and II have gotten significantly larger in the past few years.

My suggestion was to "seed" the freestyle qual groups slightly, to make one group "lower" and one group "higher," based on moves/dance tests. I think that it wouldn't affect the final results of the event, but it could encourage new bronzes/silvers to enter ANs rather than think they aren't good enough. The sooner we can get them affected with AOSS, the better.:)

RachelSk8er

05-18-2009, 02:01 PM

But the numbers aren't increasing. They're declining. The Former-kids skaters are/have been members of USFS. Their staying in only maintains the status quo or slows the drain. It doesn't ADD bodies to the roster. Only new people taking up the sport ADDS bodies.

And the influx of kid-skaters in Class 1 is driving out the addition of NEW Adult Skaters who look at these kids and think: "No way can I match that! She's been skating for 20 years and I've been skating for five!"

Which means there are fewer people to age up to Class 2 and Class 3 and Class 4. So the kids skaters age up into those levels and the adults who were THERE are being driven out. That's the long view from someone whose been an adult skater from almost 30 years now.

There is no place currently in the structure as it exists now for me and for the people like me who started the whole Adult Skating phenomenon. And that's a shame.

Is adults who have been competing as adults for a number of years suddenly finding that they can't compete at the level they've been at for years any different than the rest of skating?

Look at the bigger picture. Skating is a young sport. It's a sport that's constantly growing and changing. Look at any singles skater, dance team, pairs team, or synchro team from 10 or 15 years ago. Compare it to singles skaters, dance teams, pairs teams, and synchro teams today. (I can speak from experience--my skating ability when I was 13--prelim moves, no dances, but I had power, was good enough to make a top 5 senior team in 1994....that would not even get me onto a top 5 juvenile team today. Top adult synchro teams from the 90s look NOTHING like top adult synchro teams today. Kids at my rink competing intermediate do more difficult programs than what Dorothy Hamill won the Olympics with). The standard is higher at all levels, so why should adult skating be any different? It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

vesperholly

05-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Can I please see the "results" of your research?

Rochelle passed senior. She is the ONLY one with her senior moves test. For the record, she also does not have a clean axel, but is trying to get it ASAP to move up to gold for next year.
I *think* Danielle is working on novice, I thought she mentioned testing soon when we were talking in the locker room.
Kim is working on Intermediate.
Brandy has silver, dont' know if she passed her gold (she tried to move up to gold but failed one of the tests, not sure if it was her moves or free).
I have novice, aiming to test junior by fall.
Jocelyn is working on senior.
I think Inna is working on Intermediate.
Rochelle must have just passed senior (congrats!) because when we talked at ANs, she only had passed junior.
Brandy passed gold moves in January.
Caroline Chao (6th) passed gold moves in January.
Rachel Silverman, last year's Bronze I winner, passed silver moves last August.

I have more to add to this whole topic but I have to go skating and work on my senior moves. :halo:

flo

05-18-2009, 02:13 PM

Debbie S

05-18-2009, 02:19 PM

Is adults who have been competing as adults for a number of years suddenly finding that they can't compete at the level they've been at for years any different than the rest of skating?I see what you're saying, but remember, adult-onset skaters are not intermediate competitors, Dorothy Hamill, or Yu-Na Kim. We have a much lower ceiling. While kid/elite skaters have certainly pushed the envelope for the past 30 years, learning to skate as an average adult is much different than a 5-year-old with immense natural talent who can spend 6 days a week, 4 hours a day on the ice. I think everyone agrees that the MIF requirements have made adult 'skating' better, and I don't think that's what Blue is talking about. If the tests were much easier 'back in the day' and you could pass Silver w/o a loop (what was required on the Silver test, anyway?), then I can understand those who reached their ceiling at that level would be very frustrated today. That's not to say we shouldn't encourage skill improvement, but I agree with Blue that something should be done to give those skaters a place in the sport....I'm not sure why the new/old test disparity wasn't discussed when the tests were changed.

No one wants to discourage anyone from entering the adult skating ranks, but no one wants to discourage adults from remaining in the sport, either. Remember, adult skating was created to be inclusive, not set world records/firsts.

Skittl1321

05-18-2009, 02:23 PM

What do you think of that?

I don't think it's a good idea to limit moves test. What do skaters who can't do an axel, or can't get a camel get to do then? Are they destined to have to be dancers? Just like some adults really enjoy working on figures, others really enjoy working on moves.

Some adults are very talented at footwork and spinning but can't get that flip, lutz, axel etc. Should these skaters not be allowed to compete in freestyle?

As a PB skater, I think regardless of how many rockers/ counters etc a skater throws into their program if their cheated toe waltz only comes off the ice about an inch, they are clearly skating in the right level if they are bronze or PB.

TreSk8sAZ

05-18-2009, 03:33 PM

From Rachel:

"Is adults who have been competing as adults for a number of years suddenly finding that they can't compete at the level they've been at for years any different than the rest of skating?

Skating is a young sport."

The point is Rachel, is that, yes we are different than the rest of skating. This is in part why the adult program was started because skating is NOT only a "young" sport.

I believe that Rachel was referring to the fact that skating, versus some other more established and long-lasting sports, is a newer sport (or "young"). Not a comment on the age of people skating is aimed at.

Anyway, I don't think everyone can just discount that the adult-onset skaters in Group I don't feel discouraged at times by the incoming age-up skaters. I started skating when I was 19. I will never look as smooth on the ice as someone who started skating much younger. When an age-up skater had doubles somewhat consistently by the age of 12 or 13 or 14, then stopped competing but kept skating even at publics, then ages up into Bronze or Silver I they do have an advantage over those of us that started later. And not just in jumps, but in footwork and spins and everything else. Their bodies were trained to work in a certain way at a young age - training older bodies to do the same thing just isn't as easy.

I'm not saying that I personally would be so discouraged I wouldn't compete - obviously I have and I do. I've even won a silver medal at bronze when I was 21, just after they changed the age restrictions. However, I have to acknowledge the fact that I also was competing aginst people that year that had generally not been competitive child skaters. I enjoy competing and that's why I go, but I do know some skaters that would be in class I that feel like they would be wasting their money by competing against people who just didn't take tests when they were younger (whether they weren't competitive at the higher level, were waiting to get all doubles consistent, failed moves, etc.) but came back at the lower levels in class I.

At the same time, I also recognize that while it is easier for these skaters to get back jumps and spins, not all of them ever will. Especially as they move up the age classes. I don't think there is a one-size fits all solution. It's great to say well, fine, you should be motivated to get the skills those other girls have, but for some people that's just not realistic. There's an element of ease and grace and fear that some of the child skaters just don't have (and likely will never have) that many adult-onset skaters do have to deal with. The adult-onset skaters will still be good or even great, but you can just tell the difference. As some of the higher age class people have pointed out, some people will never get above a certain level or element due to their own limitations. I don't see how it is "fair" either way - to change the rules specifically to account for child skaters or to change the rule specifically to account for adult-onset skaters. Either way it's hurting one group, when the whole point of adult skating is inclusivity.

pairman2

05-18-2009, 03:41 PM

I think the concept of 'inclusive' is being misused here. Your typical Learn to Skate competition often has 3 or less competitors in each catagory. You can only divide this up so many ways before that's what you're left with. Sure that's 'inclusive'. On the other hand, a competition that has open enrollment is very inclusive on another level. There is equal opportunity to prepare in whatever way is necessary to be competitive.

AN is open enrollment and more then likely always will be. Being comptitive at AN is not the same thing as:
"discourage[ing] anyone from entering the adult skating ranks, but no one wants to discourage adults from remaining in the sport, either".

The question of being competitive at AN or not, should never be equated with pushing anyone out of adult skating. That's more a matter of what motivates you to begin with.

vesperholly

05-18-2009, 03:54 PM

I agree with pairman - ANs seems very inclusive to me right now, especially with the addition of solo dance. It's an open event that any skater over 21 can enter, provided they pass the appropriate tests. Being included and being competitive are two different things. One does not beget the other.

I also think it's impossible to say what makes an event competitive from year to year, because of the ever-changing entries. Skaters quit, move up, take time off for family - you can never guarantee that what's competitive last year will be competitive this year or next year.

daisies

05-18-2009, 04:11 PM

flying~camel

05-18-2009, 04:18 PM

Rochelle must have just passed senior (congrats!) because when we talked at ANs, she only had passed junior.

She hasn't yet - she's taking it (and possibly gold FS) at our club competition next month ;)

TreSk8sAZ

05-18-2009, 04:39 PM

flo

05-18-2009, 04:46 PM

I don't think any one wants a guarantee of what will or will not be competitive from year to year. But in fact we are seeing a very real change in make up of the entries and the placements.

An "open" enrollment is not all that is needed for an inclusive event. And no one is asking for more and more events, but a reasonable review of the past and current test qualifications. It's at least a place to start so we know the numbers of skaters entering with what test levels. Add a relatively simple correlation with placement and we have the facts rather than guessing.
This could be used to revise standards, entry qualifications or encourage others to work on skills.

A knowledge of your target population should be the first step in any change. This is something that has not been done in far too long. And before we get the "just volunteers", the last time a comprehensive survey of the adult skating population was conducted, it was by me - a volunteer. It's very doable. I would rather see my adult committee, who represents all skaters, to first work on getting an accurate picture of the skaters they represent.

Ellyn

05-18-2009, 05:48 PM

I'm speaking as a "kid skater" who only got up to preliminary level as a teenager and never had an opportunity to compete then, and who has competed in bronze or sometimes "skated up" to silver as an adult.

I've only gone to Adult Nationals once, and I've only competed freestyle a handful of times at club competitions over the past decade or so.

My impression is that Adult Nationals serves several purposes: it's a championship event for the higher competitive levels. It's a season climax event for adult skaters who plan their training around competing. It's an opportunity for skaters in some of the less populated events (men, pairs, etc.) to *have* a competition with multiple competitors, which is not always possible at local nonqual events. In the more populated events it's a large enough field to divide groups by age and level the playing field that way. And it's a social gathering for adult skaters from around the country to gather with friends as well as to test their skating against other adults from around the country.

Also, much more than with kids, adults often reach a point physically after which we can't appreciably improve our skills, or certain specific skills, and may even decline, because of injuries or natural aging.

And with all the different changes to the adult and standard test structures over the decades and each adult competitor potentially having passed a different combination of adult and/or standard figure, freestyle, and moves in the field tests to qualify for a given adult freestyle level, there is going to be a wide variety of skill level, and of strengths and weaknesses within a general overall level, even among skaters who have tested only and exactly what they needed to pass to compete at that level.

If you also include freestyle skaters who have passed figure, moves, or dance tests beyond what was needed to qualify for freestyle competition, and/or who also compete in synchro, those skaters are likely to have a strength in skating skills compared with their freestyle moves.

(The discrepancy between skaters at the same test level would also be true of ice dance competitors who tested the adult or masters tests vs. those who passed the standard tests at the same level, and between dancers who skated, dance or freestyle, as kids vs. those who started as adults.)

There is never going to be a completely even playing field in adult events.

Definitely it is in the interest of the USFSA and of the US adult skating community to attract and retain adult-onset skaters as well as retaining kid skaters who grew up to become adults who still skate.

Is participation in Adult Nationals the best way to measure adult participation? That leaves out people like me who actively skate all year and enter one or two local competitions a year but rarely spend the money to travel to AN.

Is the prospect of participating in Adult Nationals the best way to attract and retain adult skaters, even those for whom even just passing the bronze or freestyle test would be a maximum freestyle accomplishment but who still want to continue training and competing and improving those skills they are physically able to improve while remaining within the general bronze skill level?

How about skaters who max out at silver because of the axel requirement for gold?

How big and inclusive can Adult Nationals get before it becomes impractical for the LOC? How many adult skaters would quit skating if they no longer had the opportunity to compete there now or no longer had the hope of someday qualifying (by bronze test) to enter in the future? Is the size of the adult-onset skating community limited by the practical limits on that one event?

Discrepancies in ability between test level and what it takes to be competitive at that level also exist in the standard track. Intermediate and senior are probably where we see the widest ranges, and regionals serve a purpose similar to some of the Adult Nationals purposes in allowing anyone who can pass the test to enter the big official event even if they know they don't have the skills even to break into the top half of the field.

The recent addition of test track events as an alternative to standard track is one way to address the gap between test and competitive skill levels.

Could something similar work for adults? Would it make sense to have "test track" or "limited" gold, silver, and bronze events that restrict the jumps and spins to those required on the respective adult tests and that may also limit the types of steps allowed or the figures/MITF/dance tests passed? And if so, would it make sense to include these events at Adult Nationals, as a way to include more adults in an evener-playing-field event? Let each competitor choose whether to enter the standard adult or limited adult event, and if they don't pass more tests they always have the option of switching to the other track the next year, or at the next club competition that offers both.

jazzpants

05-18-2009, 07:22 PM

She hasn't yet - she's taking it (and possibly gold FS) at our club competition next month ;)GO ROCHELLE!!! GO GIT 'EM SENIOR MOVES and GOLD FS pin!!! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/n030.gif

Brandy passed gold moves in January.Actually technically she passed in December of last year. (I have an old email that I've sent to her about the Gold Moves and FS test.) She had planned to take only the Gold Moves but was only given a couple of days notice to get ready to take the Gold FS test. Needless to say, that didn't work out. (But I fully expect that she will move up to Gold this year. Just a matter of when.) ;)

You too, Brandy!!! Go git 'em Gold FS pin too!!! I KNOW you can do that and I know you want to!!! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/n030.gif

I have more to add to this whole topic but I have to go skating and work on my senior moves. :halo::twisted: :P :lol: :bow:

Which segue quite nice to the topic about my situation... and why I had decided that I am taking a hiatus from competing...

Back last year at Skate SF, I had probably the worst skate of any competition since probably my very first pre-Bronze comp. I was clearly outskated by those who clearly had high levels of moves tests and a couple of ice dance tests. Needless to say, I was at the cellar in placement for both my technical and my artistic program!!!

The lesson after I had a brief talk with my choreographer as we were going thru my lessons on... you guessed it... CROSSOVERS!!! :twisted: His very wise words to me was more confirmation of what I need to work on. (It was "Pretty much everyone is doing the same jumps and spins! It's how well you do those and how well you skate overall that differentiate those who are middle to low in the pack vs. those who do medal." So with those wise words, I had made the decision that I would work on Silver Moves as soon as AN is done. It was around that time that I fell in to a "skating funk" where I asked myself if it's worth it for me to continue skating, never mind, competing, given the work that I've done seems to not helped my cause. :frus:

I went into AN thinking I was gonna end up being at the cellar again or close to it, but had continue on working on my basics (crossovers, stroking, etc...HEY! What coach wouldn't turn down a student's request to work on CROSSOVERS!!! :twisted: ) in prepartion for AN. Somehow I managed to get my "competitive mojo" back just in time for AN and I got in there and skated decently (well, decent for ME!) anyway!!! I was also working on Silver moves too, just so I don't get "bored" with it. I did very little work this year in terms of jumps and spins other than getting that lutz!

I still have a long ways to go... and I know that I'm on the right track in terms of my training, but to continue on to get to where I want to go, I really have to drop the competition thing again to concentrate on those elements. I am still skating, despite the unemployment situation and am doing my best under the circumstance in remembering the stuff that I was taught prior to AN and working on those MANY homework assignments. I figured when I'm gainfully employed again, I will go back to those coaches again and I would like to surprise them by showing them that I have been working on their homework assignments... all Silver Moves related, BTW!!! :halo: :lol:

Depending on the job, I may... MAY take up ice dancing too!!! I hope I can... but it's really dependent on the schedule and $$$! Besides, should be "interesting" to see if klutzy 'o me can do the Dutch Waltz... and the solo dances look like FUN!!! :D But I will NOT be back competing 'til the Silver moves are passed!!! There are stuff that I would like to be able to afford this year besides plane tickets to Bloomington, MN.

vesperholly

05-18-2009, 07:42 PM

Very thoughtful post, Ellyn, thanks for that perspective. :)
The recent addition of test track events as an alternative to standard track is one way to address the gap between test and competitive skill levels.

Could something similar work for adults? Would it make sense to have "test track" or "limited" gold, silver, and bronze events that restrict the jumps and spins to those required on the respective adult tests and that may also limit the types of steps allowed or the figures/MITF/dance tests passed? And if so, would it make sense to include these events at Adult Nationals, as a way to include more adults in an evener-playing-field event? Let each competitor choose whether to enter the standard adult or limited adult event, and if they don't pass more tests they always have the option of switching to the other track the next year, or at the next club competition that offers both.
I don't think that subdividing the current competitive levels at ANs would further the sport or increase participation in any meaningful way. Just because adult skating's goal is inclusion doesn't mean every adult should compete in a group of 4 or less to ensure we all feel "included" by medaling. Someone has to win and someone has to place last. I don't think anyone could possibly guarantee that everyone has exactly the same background or test level — just look at the variety in Silver I. Freestyle events are not compulsory moves events.

We're all adults and we know what competition is. Just like a child skater competing at Regionals knows that this event is the pinnacle of open competitive skating, so too should adults realize that competing at ANs is the pinnacle of adult competitive skating.

SkateGuard

05-18-2009, 09:55 PM

We're all adults and we know what competition is. Just like a child skater competing at Regionals knows that this event is the pinnacle of open competitive skating, so too should adults realize that competing at ANs is the pinnacle of adult competitive skating.

True....but Regionals, being the first step on the path to Nationals, are viable to US Figure Skating, regardless of the number of entries. Adult Nationals has no such attachment, and as such, relies on the entrants and starts for its viability within the USFSA. Regionals has the cache of grooming future Olympians, something that ANs does not.

There is a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. Why? Clubs are not bidding on them, mainly because they are not seen as money-makers. However, PCAS this year was very successful....over 150 skaters decided to take a long weekend in Vegas. But I have also seen Adult Sectionals be so small in that it ended up being a one-day event. The 2005 Mids folks had to extend the entry deadline twice just to get 80 skaters to enter, even though the Twin Cities has a decent number of adult skaters.

And as Ellyn pointed out, there are the number of adult skaters who either do not have the means or the interest to compete at Adult Nationals. They still provide a lot to US Figure Skating by testing, competing in local comps, becoming officials, and volunteering within their clubs. And traveling to social ice dance weekends....

Where this all comes together is that I have met adult skaters who do not see Adult Nationals as a realistic goal, even though they have the ability and resources. Whether it was an opinion from their own observations (watching Ice Network, reading lists like this one) or from clubs/coaches who see ANs as only for former-kid skaters, I don't know, nor do I have any idea how many more skaters like this exist. And that's my concern--we have a decent-sized population of skaters who want to compete at ANs, that qualify by tests passed, but don't because they think they can't.

I'm not saying we need to dramatically change the ANs structure--but we do need to monitor the situation and make sure that skaters aren't getting "lost" because of misconceptions.

AgnesNitt

05-18-2009, 10:00 PM

However, PCAS this year was very successful....over 150 skaters decided to take a long weekend in Vegas. But I have also seen Adult Sectionals be so small in that it ended up being a one-day event. The 2005 Mids folks had to extend the entry deadline twice just to get 80 skaters to enter, even though the Twin Cities has a decent number of adult skaters.

I'm told the ISI adult competition is always huge when held in Vegas, and only so-so anywhere else. I think there's a trend in there somewhere. ;)

w.w.west

05-18-2009, 10:26 PM

There is a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. Why? Clubs are not bidding on them, mainly because they are not seen as money-makers.

(snip)

I'm not saying we need to dramatically change the ANs structure--but we do need to monitor the situation and make sure that skaters aren't getting "lost" because of misconceptions.

Speaking of misconceptions, there is NOT a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. And they ARE money makers if done correctly. In fact, AS has made anywhere from $5,000 - $12,000+

vesperholly

05-18-2009, 11:18 PM

True....but Regionals, being the first step on the path to Nationals, are viable to US Figure Skating, regardless of the number of entries. Adult Nationals has no such attachment, and as such, relies on the entrants and starts for its viability within the USFSA. Regionals has the cache of grooming future Olympians, something that ANs does not.
I'm not talking about how USFS looks at ANs, I'm talking about how skaters view ANs in the course of their competitive season/career. For most young skaters, Regionals are the peak of their skating.

There is a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. Why? Clubs are not bidding on them, mainly because they are not seen as money-makers.
I don't see any movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals, and I was at both the adult committee meeting at ANs and Governing Council this year. I think it just suffers from a lack of proper PR within the organization. Many clubs don't even have adult skaters, let alone competitive ones. I've tried to get my club to bid on Easterns, because we have 4 surfaces and an experienced base of volunteers, but they still look at me like "Adult competitions :??" Plus, Buffalo in February ... not everyone's dream desination. :lol: Where are the Florida clubs when you need them?!

RachelSk8er

05-19-2009, 06:43 AM

blue111moon

05-19-2009, 07:25 AM

Um, people have been figure skating for hundreds of years - and up until the last 50 (the days of Sonja Henie, to be exact), it was a sport for adults. The emphasis on the under-18 crowd is the new part of the sport. The only new part of adult skating is that people have discovered that "old people" can and do enjoy jumping and spinning and that there is money to made from encouraging them to try.

Again, the adult program was developed to encourage more people to take up the sport, whatever their age. It's not doing that now. So the Adult Committee needs to look at why (and it's not just this past year's economy - numbers have been declining for at least the last three to five years) and figure out what to do about it. Their efforts over the past decade have been focussed mainly on "improving the quality" of adult skating with the perfomances at Adult Nationals being the evidence of their success. In doing so, however, they've exiled a huge portion of the adult skating population, most of whom were the very ones the program was created for.

Even in the general skating popluation the majority of skaters are at the lower levels. For a long time, USFS has focussed their attention exclusively on the elite. Lately there's been a lot of emphasis on developing the Basic Skills programs. Now I'm seeing that, while Basic Skills numbers are growing steadily, the number of skaters transitioning out of Basic Skills and into full club memberships is dropping like Galileo's stones. Numbers of Pre-Pre and Pre skaters in Opens are declining. Whys should skaters enter Opens when they can compete in the cheaper "Beyond the Basics" competitions and pretty much be guaranteed of a medal. With the increased costs of Opens using IJS for the upper levels, they need the numbers of the lower levels to make their profits - and they're not getting them. That's why I'm seeing more and more Opens adding Basic Skills competitions to their schedules.

One last thought: I'm wondering how many of the adults competing at Adult Sectionals and Nationals compete at other local competitions during the year? I'm an accountant, I deal with hundreds of names and events every year, yet, looking at the lists from Adult Nationals, I see an awful lot of names I never see anywhere else. Which is a change fro "The Way It Used To Be". At one time, all the adult skaters knew each other; we saw each other several times a year at various local events (and not just the all-adult ones), we volunteered at club events and we cheered each other on at club shows and went to dinner together afterward. There was much more of an "One for all, all for one" attitude. Now, it seems as if people come in, skate and leave, and the medals are justification for all the money spent to get them.

And so much for my philosophizing discourse of the day. I really don't expect the higher-test under-30 crowd to understand. I can only take comfort in the knowledge that time will catch up with them too. :)

Isk8NYC

05-19-2009, 07:38 AM

I'm told the ISI adult competition is always huge when held in Vegas, and only so-so anywhere else. I think there's a trend in there somewhere. ;)
I was just thinking the same thing. Adults are more likely to spend money on any conference if it's at a "destination."

The ISI is having an (open) national competition in Orlando, FL over Memorial Day weekend, followed by their annual conference. Although, with the economy, they might be a bit pinched.

The Olympics are coming and the LTS programs will grow more. Basic Skills programs are generally run by the rink, who have very little interest in watching "their skaters" move on to a skating Club. They make more money off the group lesson programs than they do off skaters on freestyle/commissions from lessons unless s/he becomes a twice-daily skater.

The staff who run the USFSA's Basic Skills program are awesome and provide great materials to keep the programs growing, something the ISI also enacted with their "We Skate" program.

Again, I think that the USFSA needs a good analysis of all competition numbers over the past four years to see what the trends are for the sport, esp. the Adult events/competitions.

pairman2

05-19-2009, 07:46 AM

RachelSk8er

05-19-2009, 10:29 AM

Bluemoon...The development of the basic skills level is very good, and is growing. This certainly doesn't detract from adult skating, it will ultimately benefit it immensely in the long run. It will however take a few years. If adults in basic skills delay full club membership, this is just a consideration of their present budget, the fact that they often are financing their kids through skating as well and also they have yet to decide whether they want to be committed long term. All valid concerns. For now, it's most important that they just have fun learning with other adults at the same level.

Skating has always been expensive, but it's also much more expensive than it used to be (also a deterrent for some that can prevent the move from a basic skills program to private lessons). 10 years ago, I (well, my parents) paid about $5.50-8/hr for a session of club ice. Now I pay $11-15/hr. Luckily I haven't seen coaching costs go up...I had 2 coaches as a teenager and paid one $12 and the other $14 for a 15-minute lesson, now I have one coach who charges $13.50. Due to increased cost of ice, travel/lodging for judges, etc, competition entry fees are much higher ($30-45 for the first event vs. $60-80), as are the fees clubs are charging for tests.

Um, people have been figure skating for hundreds of years - and up until the last 50 (the days of Sonja Henie, to be exact), it was a sport for adults. The emphasis on the under-18 crowd is the new part of the sport. The only new part of adult skating is that people have discovered that "old people" can and do enjoy jumping and spinning and that there is money to made from encouraging them to try.

Again, saying that figure skating is a young sport in the sense that I did has nothing to do with the age of its participants. Sure, people have been skating for hundreds of years. But it's only been the last 50 that we've grown from a recreational activity and form of entertainment to a legitamate, mainstream sport. The rules have been and still are constantly evolving, and the standard keeps getting higher. Adult staing isn't going to be static when the sport as a whole is constantly evolving. Especially when you've got growing collegiate programs creating a bridge from skating-as-a-kid to skating-as-an-adult. That's not going to go away any time soon.

Blanket rules such as limiting moves tests aren't the solution. That might encourage participation in some areas (older age classes), but will limit it in others...do you think skaters such as Jocelyn and myself, legitamate silver freestyle skaters (neither of us even made the podium in Silver I), would want to compete freestyle if we were forced into intermediate or novice because we have moves tests that are 3-4 levels higher? (Don't take this the wrong way Jocelyn :)) Neither of us would be competitive in intermediate/novice at this point in our skating carreers (I'm not talking about winning, I'm talking just having the jumps/spins to stand a legitamate shot of not being blown away by skaters with intermediate or novice free...that's why we're silver right now and not intermediate/novice, even if that level may be our ultimate goal one day.)

I guess I wouldn't be fully opposed to trying to split off into a test track/standard stream to see how it works, particularly at II, III and IV, but in some places there just isn't the numbers for that at AN (age class I, all of the men), and it would take a while to catch on and increase participation. Part of the fun of nationals is having a large group your own age to compete against, because all season we have small groups, or events at local competitions cancelled altogether. And if you did that in age class I, that still won't prevent someone with higher moves, no axel, and a shaky flying camel they'd rather not do anyway from competing test track. (Granted I'd probably go standard even without the axel since I'm really competitive and would rather be challenged, since being challenged to take it to the next level and not winning makes one a better skater than winning without a challenge...but some people who want to win might stay test track.)

Stormy

05-19-2009, 11:33 AM

One last thought: I'm wondering how many of the adults competing at Adult Sectionals and Nationals compete at other local competitions during the year? I'm an accountant, I deal with hundreds of names and events every year, yet, looking at the lists from Adult Nationals, I see an awful lot of names I never see anywhere else. Which is a change fro "The Way It Used To Be". At one time, all the adult skaters knew each other; we saw each other several times a year at various local events (and not just the all-adult ones), we volunteered at club events and we cheered each other on at club shows and went to dinner together afterward. There was much more of an "One for all, all for one" attitude. Now, it seems as if people come in, skate and leave, and the medals are justification for all the money spent to get them.

And so much for my philosophizing discourse of the day. I really don't expect the higher-test under-30 crowd to understand. I can only take comfort in the knowledge that time will catch up with them too. :)

I'm trying to understand....hence the reason I've asked 2178641321 questions here. :)

Has the focus shifted from doing several small local events to just doing Sectionals or ANs? I know the reason I don't usually do the local events (although I have done yours, Blue, a few times) is twofold. One, I like a large group to compete in. Being in a group of two or three isn't as good (for lack of a better word) for me as a group of 6 or 8. Two, It's better for me to save several $60-$80 entry fees through the year and put it towards Sectionals and ANs. In New England, we do have a good amount of adult skaters, but there does always seem to be tiny groups in local competitions, especially at Gold. This past season I went to Halloween Classic and NYI because I knew there would be big groups. Now that there are more all adult competitions, there really isn't a need to do the smaller "kid" events that just have adults in there. I do see the all for one, one for all attitude at the events I went to certainly.

flo

05-19-2009, 12:00 PM

I use to compete in several events a year, but have recently done 1 local event and AN. It's due in part to the fact that as I've been competing for a while, I don't require as many events to feel comfortable with the program, and I also get invited to do shows here. This year was different in that we started late with only the intention to do artistic pairs events and didn't have a pairs program until March!

The sectionals is not a draw for me as I have no interest in the championship events, so it would be similar to any other event. What draws me to the events is the chance to catch up with friends and the experience. As Bluemoon and I have said, the feeling of nats and the local events has changed over the years. It's more of a focus on "me" and not the group.
One reason I love having AN in Lake Placid is that it's a tiny town and when you walk around the streets, the folks you see are the skaters, and you're part of the group. This year was also great in that wherever we went we felt welcome. There was a recognition by the LOC that this was an important event and something to be celebrated. Another consideration ifor choosing the local events is the cost - what would be more beneficial, the $$ spent on the event or on ice and coaching time?

For this year, I'd love to go to the Peach - always great fun or the Halloween classic, and AN. Also on the horizon is the Mountain Cup or Germany. I went to The mountain cup a few years ago in pairs and it had the "feeling" of the first adult nationals.

jazzpants

05-19-2009, 12:13 PM

I'm told the ISI adult competition is always huge when held in Vegas, and only so-so anywhere else. I think there's a trend in there somewhere. ;)
I swear if Adult Sectionals was held in Vegas again next year, I will come out of my self-imposed hiatus to compete!!! :twisted: I missed last year and have lived to regret it. :cry: (BTW: What were the numbers for San Francisco vs. Vegas? Or if you can't give numbers, can someone tell me whether it was more profitable in San Francisco or Vegas? Just curious... ;) )

If it was back at my own home turf.... Hmmmm? Tough choice... :??

SkateGuard

05-19-2009, 02:51 PM

Speaking of misconceptions, there is NOT a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. And they ARE money makers if done correctly. In fact, AS has made anywhere from $5,000 - $12,000+

Yes, they are moneymakers if done correctly (see point concerning PCAS this year). I never said they weren't.....my point was that clubs don't bid, mistakenly thinking that they aren't moneymakers. We have had several years where the deadline passes for bids in a section....sans a single bid. IMO, Adult Sectionals are easy money for a club...how many competitions can guarantee a reasonable number of entries/starts for a weekend event where you don't (for now) have to deal with IJS?

I would love for my club to host Mids, but my job doesn't allow me to be home enough to do the work involved (my idea, my responsibility, right? ;))

Perhaps "movement" is the wrong word..."talk" would be better, since there is no official discussion. My bad. But I have heard that idea through various unofficial channels, to the point where I approached an adult committee member, concerned that we would lose them. He reassured me that they are here to stay...but I think we would all agree that, like any competition, AS are dependent on entries.

As for the folks discussing local comps....I don't do local comps because it seems that for the time/money, you don't get a decent number of competitors. I'd rather spend the extra money and do something like Peach, Halloween, NYI, or DBNAI than a local comp. (Which, btw, are also very dependent on number of entries.)

vesperholly is correct--that it's mostly a PR thing. The reason 2005 Mids struggled for entries is that they didn't do a great job in recruiting local adults, especially from places where they could have cultivated future AN competitors. I think some who didn't compete saw the word "Sectionals" and assumed that it meant "former kid skaters." (Okay, I did have to correct one woman....)

Perhaps, rather than altering the way ANs are run, the attention should be placed back at the club/coach level. US Figure Skating is now requiring continuing education....a course on Adult Skating might be a great idea. Rather than looking at it like "Adult Nationals is too hard for a group of skaters," we should be looking at it as "not enough skaters are realizing that if you pass the test, you qualify."

Ellyn

05-19-2009, 03:06 PM

Now we're really not talking about this year's Governing Council, but about visions for adult skating in gneral? Should this be a separate thread?

Has the focus shifted from doing several small local events to just doing Sectionals or ANs?

I'm sure it varies by individual. The question is who is in a position to identify a trend?

I know the reason I don't usually do the local events (although I have done yours, Blue, a few times) is twofold. One, I like a large group to compete in. Being in a group of two or three isn't as good (for lack of a better word) for me as a group of 6 or 8. Two, It's better for me to save several $60-$80 entry fees through the year and put it towards Sectionals and ANs.

I, on the other hand, concentrate on local events mainly to save money.

Fortunately I have New Years Invitational available to me locally. And it allows me to enter only one or more of the specialty events if I don't have a freestyle program sufficiently trained that year to enter the freestyle event. If I do enter freestyle there, there will probably be some breakdown by age.

I've never taken my coach to that event, and I wouldn't to an out-of-town adult event, because she doesn't have other studetns competing there. The advantage of skating adult freestyle at a "full-service" nonqual competition with all sorts of kids' events as well is that I can have my coach available. On the other hand, I'm more likely to be competing against skaters a decade or two younger than me and/or in a combined bronze-silver event.

I looked at the video of the bronze III group at ANs and that does seem to be a very appropriate event for me to compete in. It's just the cost of travel and hotel to go skate for 2 minutes without a coach that keeps me from entering.

doubletoe

05-19-2009, 05:51 PM

As Bluemoon and I have said, the feeling of nats and the local events has changed over the years. It's more of a focus on "me" and not the group.
One reason I love having AN in Lake Placid is that it's a tiny town and when you walk around the streets, the folks you see are the skaters, and you're part of the group. This year was also great in that wherever we went we felt welcome. There was a recognition by the LOC that this was an important event and something to be celebrated. Another consideration for choosing the local events is the cost - what would be more beneficial, the $$ spent on the event or on ice and coaching time?

For this year, I'd love to go to the Peach - always great fun or the Halloween classic, and AN. Also on the horizon is the Mountain Cup or Germany. I went to The mountain cup a few years ago in pairs and it had the "feeling" of the first adult nationals.

Just chimed in to catch up on this thread and now I'm kind of confused. I thought the complaint was that AN was suffering from diminished participation, but what I'm reading here sounds more like nostalgia for when AN was smaller and more intimate.
I have personally found the environment at AN to be so supportive, friendly and social that I am almost overwhelmed by it--more so each year. Are you only associating with people you still know from the early days, or are you also making an effort to meet the newcomers?
BTW, I like your idea of a reclassification for anyone who took FS tests when the requirements were less difficult. You should definitely bring it up to the Adult Committee!

sk8er1964

05-19-2009, 06:25 PM

<snip>What draws me to the events is the chance to catch up with friends and the experience. As Bluemoon and I have said, the feeling of nats and the local events has changed over the years. It's more of a focus on "me" and not the group.

I haven't chimed in much on the recent discussion, but I have to say that I completely disagree with this. AN is what you make of it. Yes, it is about "me" - after all, "I" am the one who is skating. It is also about seeing friends who I get to see maybe once or twice a year. It's about cheering for (and throwing tossies to) both friends and skaters that I have never met but whose programs that I like. It's about sitting there and watching skaters I don't know and enjoying their skates - while talking/being with skating friends. It's about being an adult doing something that many people can only dream of - and in that I mean not necessarily skating, but pursuing a dream - any dream.

Now, for the other comments that I wanted to make and haven't yet. AN is not about a level playing field. If it was, then we'd have "competitor" ribbons at AN and get juice boxes after we skate. I fall into one of the events that I am no longer particularly competitive in (oh, and I am one of those dreaded kid skaters with real adult limitations) - and that is the gold level. I haven't had a good sectionals showing in years. I've never medalled in the open events at AN. Championship gold in 2003 the one time that I qualified is vastly different than championship gold now. Do I whine about it? Yeah, sometimes. However, it's not about the strength of my competitors rather about my own weaknesses.

YMMV, but I think that AN and adult skating is going in the right direction. Do we need some tweeks? Yeah. However, I do trust the individuals on the adult committee to do the best that they can within the constraints of US Figure Skating to ensure that we have good opportunities to skate and compete as adults.

Terri C

05-19-2009, 06:44 PM

I think some who didn't compete saw the word "Sectionals" and assumed that it meant "former kid skaters." (Okay, I did have to correct one woman....)

Perhaps, rather than altering the way ANs are run, the attention should be placed back at the club/coach level. US Figure Skating is now requiring continuing education....a course on Adult Skating might be a great idea. Rather than looking at it like "Adult Nationals is too hard for a group of skaters," we should be looking at it as "not enough skaters are realizing that if you pass the test, you qualify."

Skateguard... ITA!! My secondary coach within the last two- three years or so started to work with adults. I started with him last summer. I forwarded him the adult skating e-newsletter that I got from the ASC. He was thankful for the information and yes, I did have to clairify for him that I did not have to do Sectionals first before AN.
I'm also planning on putting out the word on NYI and any other adult competitions/skating events that I hear about to the other adult skaters in my area.

flo

05-19-2009, 07:18 PM

From doubletoe;
"Just chimed in to catch up on this thread and now I'm kind of confused. I thought the complaint was that AN was suffering from diminished participation, but what I'm reading here sounds more like nostalgia for when AN was smaller and more intimate.
I have personally found the environment at AN to be so supportive, friendly and social that I am almost overwhelmed by it--more so each year. Are you only associating with people you still know from the early days, or are you also making an effort to meet the newcomers?"

Actually the early AN's were not small and intimate. They were quite large.
This last AN was supportive, but when was the last time you were at an AN with a standing room only crowd in the bleachers? Having been to all of them, I can say that, yes there has been a significant change in the "feeling" as I and bluemoon have mentioned.

And skater1964 - no one wants snarky juice boxes, but to enter an event at your qualification level that actually resembles your level. Its' not that everyone expects to medal, but expects to be competing at the correct level.

LWalsh

05-19-2009, 07:28 PM

i it's about being an adult doing something that many people can only dream of -
now, for the other comments that i wanted to make and haven't yet. An is not about a level playing field. If it was, then we'd have "competitor" ribbons at an and get juice boxes after we skate. I fall into one of the events that i am no longer particularly competitive in (oh, and i am one of those dreaded kid skaters with real adult limitations) - and that is the gold level. I haven't had a good sectionals showing in years. I've never medalled in the open events at an. Championship gold in 2003 the one time that i qualified is vastly different than championship gold now. Do i whine about it? Yeah, sometimes. However, it's not about the strength of my competitors rather about my own weaknesses.

Ymmv, but i think that an and adult skating is going in the right direction. Do we need some tweeks? Yeah. However, i do trust the individuals on the adult committee to do the best that they can within the constraints of us figure skating to ensure that we have good opportunities to skate and compete as adults.

thank you!!!

Lw

vesperholly

05-19-2009, 08:35 PM

This last AN was supportive, but when was the last time you were at an AN with a standing room only crowd in the bleachers?
I think this is in large part because people can't always afford to stay the whole week, especially lately with the economy in the toilet. It's always difficult to get non-skating spectators to come to any event below standard Nationals, anyway.

Skittl1321

05-19-2009, 08:59 PM

I think this is in large part because people can't always afford to stay the whole week, especially lately with the economy in the toilet. It's always difficult to get non-skating spectators to come to any event below standard Nationals, anyway.

Even standard nationals tends to have loads of empty seats at a lot of events.

flo

05-19-2009, 09:06 PM

Sure, but again, I'm looking at trends at AN. That's why I'd really like to see some numbers and hard facts as to attendance, and the makeup of skaters. You can't go forward if you don't know where you are and where you've come from. We're seeing the results now of changes without this perspective and information.

daisies

05-19-2009, 09:29 PM

Having been to all of them, I can say that, yes there has been a significant change in the "feeling" as I and bluemoon have mentioned.
This really depends on the person, because I've been to all 15 ANs too and I don't agree. Wilmington was "intimate" in that it was all held in one rink, on one surface, so that aspect has obviously changed dramatically, but to me that's really it. I see still the same encouragement and support from all the competitors that has become the hallmark of adult skating.

YMMV.

flo

05-19-2009, 09:34 PM

Sure, Wilmington was expecting 150 but had 600. The AN's following were quite large. I'm not saying that there's no "encouragement or support" just that it has changed. Since you can't measure it, this is why I'd like to see a comprehensive survey of the adults to get everyone's input.

w.w.west

05-19-2009, 09:42 PM

We have had several years where the deadline passes for bids in a section....sans a single bid. IMO, Adult Sectionals are easy money for a club...how many competitions can guarantee a reasonable number of entries/starts for a weekend event where you don't (for now) have to deal with IJS?

Yes...and hopefully that won't be the case again. Remember, bids are due June 1!

Perhaps "movement" is the wrong word..."talk" would be better, since there is no official discussion. My bad. But I have heard that idea through various unofficial channels, to the point where I approached an adult committee member, concerned that we would lose them. He reassured me that they are here to stay...but I think we would all agree that, like any competition, AS are dependent on entries.

Okay...I'l accept talk. ;) You are correct there has been talk among various channels. And, yes, they are dependent on entries and clubs bidding on them.

I think some who didn't compete saw the word "Sectionals" and assumed that it meant "former kid skaters." (Okay, I did have to correct one woman....)

Yes! This brings back a memory about that year that I had forgotten until now. I went to check in and turn in my music and the lady made a comment to me something like "...okay, you can tell "her" that that she can go to locker room x and here is "her" goodie bag." I looked at her at said..."I am the one competiting...it's for me". I swear she looked at me like I had two heads when I said that! My look then turned into a glare, and I walked away. :roll: What you said above definitely explains that comment.

Yes, education would be a good thing!

Skittl1321

05-19-2009, 09:45 PM

Yes! This brings back a memory about that year that I had forgotten until now. I went to check in and turn in my music and the lady made a comment to me something like "...okay, you can tell "her" that that she can go to locker room x and here is "her" goodie bag." I looked at her at said..."I am the one competiting...it's for me". I swear she looked at me like I had two heads when I said that! My look then turned into a glare, and I walked away. :roll: What you said above definitely explains that comment.

Yes, education would be a good thing!

My current club is good and understanding about most things with adult skaters (or at least if it is brought up they try very hard to be, pretty much everything assume you are a child and then accomodates for the adult) but I had to skip an opportunity to skate in another club's show. A parent was required to volunteer DURING one of three shows. Otherwise a $200 fee was levied. I asked if I could do some sort of work for set up or tear down, and was told that the parent must work during the show. Um- my Mom isn't willing to drive 1,000 miles to come do that. (I suppose DH could have done it, but he would have been really uninterested in doing that.)

w.w.west

05-19-2009, 09:46 PM

I haven't chimed in much on the recent discussion, but I have to say that I completely disagree with this. AN is what you make of it. Yes, it is about "me" - after all, "I" am the one who is skating. It is also about seeing friends who I get to see maybe once or twice a year. It's about cheering for (and throwing tossies to) both friends and skaters that I have never met but whose programs that I like. It's about sitting there and watching skaters I don't know and enjoying their skates - while talking/being with skating friends. It's about being an adult doing something that many people can only dream of - and in that I mean not necessarily skating, but pursuing a dream - any dream.

Now, for the other comments that I wanted to make and haven't yet. AN is not about a level playing field. If it was, then we'd have "competitor" ribbons at AN and get juice boxes after we skate. I fall into one of the events that I am no longer particularly competitive in (oh, and I am one of those dreaded kid skaters with real adult limitations) - and that is the gold level. I haven't had a good sectionals showing in years. I've never medalled in the open events at AN. Championship gold in 2003 the one time that I qualified is vastly different than championship gold now. Do I whine about it? Yeah, sometimes. However, it's not about the strength of my competitors rather about my own weaknesses.

YMMV, but I think that AN and adult skating is going in the right direction. Do we need some tweeks? Yeah. However, I do trust the individuals on the adult committee to do the best that they can within the constraints of US Figure Skating to ensure that we have good opportunities to skate and compete as adults.

...........:bow:

singerskates

05-20-2009, 12:02 AM

My current club is good and understanding about most things with adult skaters (or at least if it is brought up they try very hard to be, pretty much everything assume you are a child and then accomodates for the adult) but I had to skip an opportunity to skate in another club's show. A parent was required to volunteer DURING one of three shows. Otherwise a $200 fee was levied. I asked if I could do some sort of work for set up or tear down, and was told that the parent must work during the show. Um- my Mom isn't willing to drive 1,000 miles to come do that. (I suppose DH could have done it, but he would have been really uninterested in doing that.)

Yeah, clubs need to realize that adult skaters are 18+ and can do the same volunteer jobs as the parents of skaters 17 and under. A matter a fact I don't see why they won't let some skaters 16+ volunteer for things other than runners at competitions.

SK8RX

05-20-2009, 12:55 AM

What draws me to the events is the chance to catch up with friends and the experience. As Bluemoon and I have said, the feeling of nats and the local events has changed over the years. It's more of a focus on "me" and not the group.

Well I guess the nature of "feelings" is that they are very subjective,and while they are neither right nor wrong, the tone of your posts in general seem to reflect so much dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the current Adult Skating program and in particular Adult Nationals, which seems rather sad to me. Frankly, I don't share your perspective, and I am definitely in the over 30 crowd, and have personally been blessed with nothing but extraordinarily positive and supportive experiences at Adult Nationals and the other adult competitions I have attended over the last several years from both my old skating friends, and new young whipper snappers. So much so, that in point of fact, that I felt inspired to travel to Europe last year, even though I had no intention of skating due a chronic injury, to support my skating friends and with the hopes of making new friends in O'dorf and at the Mountain Cup. I really had a blast just being a cheerleader, tissue holder, skate bag shlepper, etc., and I know someone else who is doing the same thing this year as well, and in fact also came to Grand Rapids this year to do the exact same thing. I am sure that over the years there have been others doing the same.

It's certainly appropriate to acknowledge the past and its connection to the present state of adult skating. It's equally wonderful to hold fond memories of what once was, but time does march on, and changes are inevitable. I have always felt and continue to feel, and have personally witnessed that there is a place in adult skating for everyone. The only real requirement is that you lace up your skates and have the courage to step out on the ice and do your best. It also helps not to have any preconceived notions of how things "should be". Things are never going to be the same as they were 5 or 10 years ago. This is not to say they are better or worse now, they are just different. But from my perspective they are really quite awesome, and I have definitely experienced camaraderie amongst the majority of skaters. both young and old, that I have come in contact with over my years of skating. Perhaps this is a bit of the glass half full versus half empty scenario. I do hope you continue to enjoy your skating in whatever venue your choices lead you. Happy skating.

blue111moon

05-20-2009, 07:23 AM

If you think everything is wonderful now the way it is, fine.

Just be aware that there are a lot of people who don't feel the same way, and who also feel that they have been disenfranchized in the creation of that "wonderfulness."

By focussing some much energy and money on Adult Nationals, USFS has neglected the base that produced the event. Frankly, I don't know if the people who have left because of that will ever come back. And if they don't, well, I can't blame them.

In response to the people who say they don't do local competitions because the groups aren't big enough, well, how do you expect the groups to BE bigger if you don't enter? Back in the Dark Ages, when we were trying to convince clubs to OFFER adult events, several of us (usually five but sometimes as many as eight or ten) would get together and all enter the same competition, travelling together, just to show the club that adults were worth their while. It worked, too. There wouldn't BE Adult Nationals at all if USFS hadn't seen the numbers of adult skaters competing locally first.

RachelSk8er

05-20-2009, 07:54 AM

In response to the people who say they don't do local competitions because the groups aren't big enough, well, how do you expect the groups to BE bigger if you don't enter? Back in the Dark Ages, when we were trying to convince clubs to OFFER adult events, several of us (usually five but sometimes as many as eight or ten) would get together and all enter the same competition, travelling together, just to show the club that adults were worth their while. It worked, too. There wouldn't BE Adult Nationals at all if USFS hadn't seen the numbers of adult skaters competing locally first.

I simply prefer not to do local competitions.

Due to my work/school schedule, I can typically only skate Friday morning (1 hr), Saturday (1-2 hrs) and Sunday (1-2 hrs, dance only session). Even though competing is valuable, it means I lose a whole day of practice (two days if travel is involved).

Timing of local competitions is typically such that it's the weekend before or sandwiched right between bigger adult competitions where I know I'll have a decent sized group to compete against and am signed up for multiple events (dance, free, interp, compulsory). I can't lose a whole day of practice and my lesson time the week before a big competition.

That being said, I do let the club hosting a local competition know that if anyone signs up at my level or one level higher, to please let me know and I will enter (easier than them having to worry about me signing up, being the only one, and having to issue a refund, which is typically the case for anyone above bronze in my area. Bronze and pre-bronze can usually get a group). I'll also do interp, but sometimes that means being lumped in with just the pre-bronze skaters who typically do interp...as one of those evil, dreaded former kid skaters with high moves who normally competes masters interp, I can acknowledge that I don't belong in this group, it's not fair to them, and I only do it if I'm needed for numbers to hold the event. And I recenlty let the local gold skater know that if there is any competition she wants to do, to let me know and I'll skate up, especially if we can get them to judge us under IJS because the equipment/officials are already in place for juv-senior.

If 2 hrs is "local" there is one competition that offers juvenile and below and adult events, and actually got a great adult turnout last year, in fact, it was the biggest group I competed in other than nationals (7 skaters). I'll do that one again, even though it's the day after fall semester finals and I'm typically mentally/physically drained and skate like crap.

w.w.west

05-20-2009, 08:07 AM

Well I guess the nature of "feelings" is that they are very subjective,and while they are neither right nor wrong, the tone of your posts in general seem to reflect so much dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the current Adult Skating program and in particular Adult Nationals, which seems rather sad to me. Frankly, I don't share your perspective, and I am definitely in the over 30 crowd, and have personally been blessed with nothing but extraordinarily positive and supportive experiences at Adult Nationals and the other adult competitions I have attended over the last several years from both my old skating friends, and new young whipper snappers. So much so, that in point of fact, that I felt inspired to travel to Europe last year, even though I had no intention of skating due a chronic injury, to support my skating friends and with the hopes of making new friends in O'dorf and at the Mountain Cup. I really had a blast just being a cheerleader, tissue holder, skate bag shlepper, etc., and I know someone else who is doing the same thing this year as well, and in fact also came to Grand Rapids this year to do the exact same thing. I am sure that over the years there have been others doing the same.

It's certainly appropriate to acknowledge the past and its connection to the present state of adult skating. It's equally wonderful to hold fond memories of what once was, but time does march on, and changes are inevitable. I have always felt and continue to feel, and have personally witnessed that there is a place in adult skating for everyone. The only real requirement is that you lace up your skates and have the courage to step out on the ice and do your best. It also helps not to have any preconceived notions of how things "should be". Things are never going to be the same as they were 5 or 10 years ago. This is not to say they are better or worse now, they are just different. But from my perspective they are really quite awesome, and I have definitely experienced camaraderie amongst the majority of skaters. both young and old, that I have come in contact with over my years of skating. Perhaps this is a bit of the glass half full versus half empty scenario. I do hope you continue to enjoy your skating in whatever venue your choices lead you. Happy skating.

Thanks for putting your adult skating experience into words so eloquently! I was beginning to think that I was missing something and I was living in a bubble. Sure, there will always be things that need to be fixed. That's what progress is.

:bow:

MusicSkateFan

05-20-2009, 09:16 AM

Debbie S

05-20-2009, 09:53 AM

This is a dead horse people, MOVE ON!

Or at least spend your time doing one of the following:
1. SKATING
2. Contact your Adult Reps
C. Skating!
If you read people's posts, you would see that they are doing/have done exactly that. This is a forum for discussion. As long as people aren't cursing at each other or calling each other names, I don't see a problem with it. I am actually learning quite a bit about adult skating past and present from hearing others' perspectives.

If you find the thread boring and don't want to read it, then don't.

manleywoman

05-20-2009, 10:05 AM

Well, FWIW, here's my take:

My first ANs was 1998. So not at the very beginning, but close to it. And I've attended ten since then. I personally haven't seen that much of a change in attitude or focus, or whatever you want to call it. However, i started in Gold and am now Junior, and am a "returning child skater," so I certainly can't speak for those in Bronze and Silver who had different experiences.

In the beginning I competed A LOT locally. Since I hadn't competed in 20 years, my coach wanted me to get used to it again. I must have done eight events my first year. It was exhausting. For the past several years I have only ever done Sectionals and ANs. That's it. I can't afford to do more than that, and I don't need to get used to competing anymore. Our local club has offered Adult events if we wanted to do them, but my local competitor(s) and I usually decline because we don't have the time or money.

The bleachers have usually been sparse, but that's because there are so many more bleachers than attendees. Chicago was really quite full on the last day, but we had a fantastic PR person and Larry Holliday alone I think brought in 30 outside spectators for his event, LOL!

This year in GR, i came Wednesday night, competed Thursday, and was gone by Friday afternoon. Not how I wanted to do it, but it was what my schedule could allow. So how would we take that into account for attendance? Some of us can't stay the whole week. ANs averages about 450-500 attendees every year, and many people either don't stay the whole week or are competing in multiple events. I don't recall that in the beginning as many skaters were doing so many multiple events. So of course the bleachers would be somewhat empty!

flo

05-20-2009, 10:06 AM

Well said Debbie.
this is far from dead - the discussion is just the beginnig.

slusher

05-20-2009, 11:21 AM

A question from an observer:

How many adult skaters are there in USFSA? Do they have stats online?

RachelSk8er

05-20-2009, 11:34 AM

A question from an observer:

How many adult skaters are there in USFSA? Do they have stats online?

I don't even know if that would give us an accurate number of adult skaters, if that's what you're really looking for. There are plenty of adults at my rink who skate, may take private lessons, but aren't testing or competing, and therefore aren't members of USFS. (My rink has a sparsely attended public all day on one surface and open figure skating sessions on the other most of the day, no club membership or anything required). These people range from beginning adult skaters to people who have been skating for ages, some who skated competitively as kids (a friend of mine I skated with growing up skates once or twice a week during lunch when her work schedule allows, but has no interest in competing or finishing her moves/dances right now, as much as I've tried to talk her into it). I'm sure these people exist at just about any rink.

pairman2

05-20-2009, 11:52 AM

I dont beleive there is any thing close to an accurate mechanism for counting all adult skaters (and even the definition would be very fluid) but in my informal observation locally, for every full USFS full membership skating adult, there are at least 3 or more that are taking some level of instruction, or practice a defined set of figure skating skills, on some regular basis that I do not think have full membership in USFS

Stormy

05-20-2009, 12:25 PM

I would like to change the title of this thread to:

"Trying to ride Eight Bells to the barn after the 2008 Kentucky Derby"

This is a dead horse people, MOVE ON!

Or at least spend your time doing one of the following:
1. SKATING
2. Contact your Adult Reps
C. Skating!
:giveup::giveup:
:frus::frus:

This has been an excellent and I believe, much needed discussion. If you don't care to read it, please feel free to stay out of the thread.

jenlyon60

05-20-2009, 12:56 PM

If you are a USFS member, you can specify "Adult Skater" in your member profile. Some clubs may include the pre-defined USFS categories on their annual membership renewals.

It's not going to capture any adult skater who is ISI-only but within the USFS category, if an adult who skates self-selects "adult skater", then they'll be included in any demographics that includes Adult skater as a selection (primary or secondary)

blue111moon

05-20-2009, 01:08 PM

There is an option in the USFS member profile to check off what type of member you are - and there is a box for "adult skater". However, there are also boxes for "competitive skater" and "recreational skater" and you can check off as many as you want. I don't know that USFS has ever used the data from these checklists to compile a list of adult skaters although it would be a good place to start.

However, as hard as it might be to believe, there are still a lot of adult skaters who aren't technologically inclined and aren't updating their profiles online.

If there are so many adults skating who are not members of USFS (and I know that there are), I'd be curious as to why and what it would take to get them to join. I know that the daytime skaters at my home club tend to be ISI members because that's the program that the rink runs. My club is and has been working with rink management to "bring everyone under one big umbrella" - which hasn't totally been defined yet, but we're working on it. :) Then the only people who will be outside the umbrella will be the people who come only for public sessions and don't take lessons of any kind.

So far of the people I've talked to, the issue seems to be the cost. But I've also gotten comments along the lines of "Oh, USFS is for kids." and "I'm not good enough." to "I don't belong there." Misconceptions for the most part, but frankly when the picture USFS paints of adult skating revolves almost totally around Adult Sectionals and Nationals(and the higher levels of that), I can understand where the misconceptions come from. And it's not just the skaters themselves that labor under them. I've heard similar comments from coaches, who should know better, you'd think. But looking at the PSA seminar agendas, there's nary a mention of teaching adults and there's virtually nothing in USFS's Basic Skills documentation that mentions anything beyond the existence of the adult levels.

So maybe those are tasks for the new Adult Skaters Committee members: to research how many adult skaters are out there,beyond the ranks of Adults Nationals competitiors, how many are members and how to go about reaching "the rest"; to encourage PSA and USFS to develop teaching methods for adults (like it or not, adults do not generally learn the same way kids do and require different teaching techniques) and to find some way of recognizing excellence in coaching of adults, maybe with an award along the lines of the developmental coach of the year.

Just some thoughts anyway.

And one more time, I'd like to see profiles of the members of the adult committee somewhere to get an idea of their skating levels and involvement and see just how balanced the representation is, age, experience and level-wise.

Skate@Delaware

05-20-2009, 01:09 PM

blue111moon

05-20-2009, 01:11 PM

Any reason given as to why they are switching?

Isk8NYC

05-20-2009, 01:11 PM

"Adult Skater" is an optional category on the USFSA individual membership form. I remember that category description on a prior membership form as including "competitive adult skaters only", so many people don't check that category on the membership form.

I had thought about the Basic Skills programs picking up those adult skaters who don't test/compete, but that doesn't work either. Some rinks don't register all skaters, and many adult skaters choose private or "coffee club" lessons which may not be registered. As you mentioned, the ISI-only contingent usually gets left out as well.

There is a real need to get an accurate count/survey of skaters, but I don't think the USFSA has sufficient information on file. I had suggested this a few years ago. Several months later, the Adult Committee did a survey through the Adult Skating Ambassadors, but it was focused on Adult Sectionals, not on identifying a population and their needs.

I agree that an accurate survey would provide valuable information for future decisions.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond to this thread.
You are more than welcome to continue your discussions here. I think a roundtable with different points of view is valuable.

Skate@Delaware

05-20-2009, 01:19 PM

Any reason given as to why they are switching?

Last I heard, it has something to do with the way the club's non-profit status is granted. If there is no national affiliation then we get a friendlier basis and can qualify for state funding (if there is some available) plus some perks from the rink. If we are under a national organization (like USFS) we don't get any perks and have to follow their rules for everything.

Ellyn

05-20-2009, 01:38 PM

If an adult skater doesn't test or compete and doesn't want to test or compete, they have no reason to join USFSA. Unless they want to skate on club sessions that require membership in a USFSA club. Or, of course, if they want to be invovled in the sport for another reason (e.g., a child who tests and competes).

Same if their testing and competing needs are covered by ISI membership.

Should USFSA as a whole or individual clubs or adult skaters affiliated with these clubs try to make membership and participation in USFSA activities more attractive to these skaters? What would that involve?

I think that kind of outreach would work better at a local level. Each club could offer programs to appeal to adult beginners or adult figure skaters who had been content just to skate and not test/compete that make sense in the context of the kinds of programs that the club already offers to other populations including active adult skaters. Maybe the Adult Committee could suggest some potential outreach efforts, but not all will be effective in every local context.

And there would still be individuals who would be happy just to putter around on adult-friendly public sessions or even freestyle or dance sessions, maintaining the skills they've already learned, and wouldn't be interested in anything more structured, no matter how attractive the programs might seem to those of us who do enjoy the structure.

sk8er1964

05-20-2009, 01:38 PM

So far of the people I've talked to, the issue seems to be the cost. But I've also gotten comments along the lines of "Oh, USFS is for kids." and "I'm not good enough." to "I don't belong there." Misconceptions for the most part, but frankly when the picture USFS paints of adult skating revolves almost totally around Adult Sectionals and Nationals(and the higher levels of that), I can understand where the misconceptions come from. And it's not just the skaters themselves that labor under them. I've heard similar comments from coaches, who should know better, you'd think. But looking at the PSA seminar agendas, there's nary a mention of teaching adults and there's virtually nothing in USFS's Basic Skills documentation that mentions anything beyond the existence of the adult levels.

As a kid I skated first, under the ISIA program, then later under USFSA. Back then, the perception was exactly that - ISIA was for fun and USFSA was for serious skaters. It wouldn't surprise me if that general perception is still around.

Also, you mention costs. I think that's a huge factor. The cost of club membership and competition entrie fees are sometimes huge for USFSA. I don't skate ISI so I can't comment on their costs. However, the entry fees for Sectionals (championship event) and AN were staggering, in my mind.

blue111moon

05-20-2009, 01:54 PM

Last I heard, it has something to do with the way the club's non-profit status is granted. If there is no national affiliation then we get a friendlier basis and can qualify for state funding (if there is some available) plus some perks from the rink. If we are under a national organization (like USFS) we don't get any perks and have to follow their rules for everything.

ISI is a national organization, though.

The couple of rink managers that I've talked to seem to feel that ISI is "friendlier" than USFS - perhaps easier to deal with and definitely cheaper for the rink. Maybe this is something the USFS needs to address as well, since it affects more than just adults.

Skate@Delaware

05-20-2009, 02:09 PM

ISI is a national organization, though.

The couple of rink managers that I've talked to seem to feel that ISI is "friendlier" than USFS - perhaps easier to deal with and definitely cheaper for the rink. Maybe this is something the USFS needs to address as well, since it affects more than just adults.

That's what I said, but maybe it has more to do with the rink itself switching to the ISI "We-Skate" program and dropping USFS affiliation? Who knows? I think there is a misperception that if we were USFS then we (the skaters) were somehow "sponsored" by the companies that also support USFS. (this was something I heard through the grapevine) :roll:

Maybe it all boils down to the bottom line if the ISI program is less expensive than the USFS program? I honestly can't say because I'm not a club officer and no longer involved in the discussions.

jenlyon60

05-20-2009, 02:17 PM

And some of it may be that ISI and the way ISI is organized works better for many rink managers than working with one or more local USFS-affiliated clubs, who may have different officers every year or so.

Debbie S

05-20-2009, 02:49 PM

I think that kind of outreach would work better at a local level. Each club could offer programs to appeal to adult beginners or adult figure skaters who had been content just to skate and not test/compete that make sense in the context of the kinds of programs that the club already offers to other populations including active adult skaters. Good idea, I agree. Sure, there are plenty of adults that have no desire to compete or test and thus would have no reason to join USFSA, but I also think a lot of adults who start skating aren't aware of the opportunities. B/c no one tells them. LTS programs tend to be kid-oriented, and from what I've observed, coaches and program directors focus on steering the kid 'graduates' into private lessons, but not so much the adults. Maybe they don't think adults would want to go any further than Basic Skills, I don't know. Or maybe they just don't know much about adult skating - since the PSA seems to content to ignore adult skating (I'm basing that on Blue's earlier post), I guess that's not surprising. So that's the first thing that needs to change.

Simultaneously, it would be good for the Adult Committee to work on making sure the info on adult tests and comps in the rulebook is correct (which should be easier now that the rulebook is online). And disseminating that info. Honestly, if I didn't hang out on this board, I wouldn't know most of what I know about adult skating. And there are plenty of coaches and club officials that are in the dark, too. I keep seeing comp entry forms (and occasionally test forms) with incorrect rules for the adult events (ex: "Young Adult" categories, min age for Adult events listed as 25, wrong times and jump/spin limits for various levels).

The couple of rink managers that I've talked to seem to feel that ISI is "friendlier" than USFS - perhaps easier to deal with and definitely cheaper for the rink. Maybe this is something the USFS needs to address as well, since it affects more than just adults.I think I read that ISI offers liability insurance to rinks, but I don't know about USFSA. If a rink's expenses are cheaper as a result of aligning with ISI vs USFSA, I could see why a rink would go that route.

Skittl1321

05-20-2009, 02:59 PM

In my experience:
-ISI is an organization that really exists for rinks. The purpose of their LTS program is to keep rinks in business.

-USFS is an organization that exists to support the qualifying structure. Their LTS program exists to identify (but not really develop) potential talent, and to help fund the program (be the bottom of the pyramid, to an extent).

Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places, but I haven't seen anything from USFS about rink management, maintence, alternate money makers (broom ball, bumper car things) etc. I see that alot from ISI.

So from a rink's point of view ISI has a lot to offer. Our rink switched to USFS LTS recently because the skate director said they were losing business to a nearby rink who used it. Parents didn't think ISI LTS was the real program, because it wasn't the name they were used to hearing. The rink is still technically an ISI rink too, as our adult synchro team splits the fee for the rink's membership, so we can skate as an ISI team. (ISI skaters represent rinks, not clubs.)

Although our rink has a USFS club, many of the skaters and pretty much all of the top skaters who use the rink are members of a different club at the other nearby rink (which they also skate at.) I'm a board member of that 2nd club, but I never skate at the primary rink. Ironically, at regionals, sectionals, etc the club I'm a member of is announced as based at the rink I skate at, because that's where it was based at when it was founded. But it's not anymore, another club is.

As for why many adult skaters out there don't join USFS- it's expensive. I wasn't planning on rejoining this year because my tests won't be ready, so why bother. But then I got on the club board, so I'll need to be a member. That fee will not do anything but support the structure of USFS. I don't use any club resources (ice, parties, testing, competitions) if I'm not testing in a particular year. Club ice isn't really a thing here- it's 2 hours a week for my home club, and 1 hour a week, but not in the summer for my local club. Freestyle ice at the club's home rink is only before 9:00 am, but everyday, and at the rink I skate at 2 hours a week- and those are the two hours I skate each week. You don't need to be a member to skate freestyle ice. It's like public for better skaters.

pairman2

05-20-2009, 03:05 PM

I have very little first hand knowledge of ISI but a lot of past and present participants that I know spoke well of it, therefore, I don't see any reason to make a special appeal that ISI people change to USFS unless they have an interest in expanding their horizons to USFS competitions. I feel it is better to co-exist and even cross promote....after all a 3-turn is done the same way no matter where you belong. I've heard that USFS took quite a few ques from ISI in developing the LTS program after listening to critisisms that they were so over focused only on elites. So in a way, maybe we could credit ISI for making USFS more user friendly. PSA does have a vacume when it comes to mentioning adult skating in their programs, even though when pressed about it, they will claim "yes, ummm, adults are important too" I think they're starting to get the message but it will be quite awhile before it gets full recognition. - but it will happen.

Any attempt to number adult skaters will have to go beyond USFS -AND- ISI sources. There are a ton of adult skaters that have no reason to belong to either, but show up regularly to enjoy skating. Ultimately, I think the rink management could provide the most comprehensive number if they had a good business reason to define it.

Skate@Delaware

05-20-2009, 03:09 PM

There really isn't much incentive to join USFS...can't say competitions as the ones in my area are ISI (at least the ones the kids participate in are); we don't get a break on ice time or ice fees (club ice is the same price as regular ice, just in different chunks of time); basic USFS membership was included in the club membership but that didn't really mean anything to skaters, their parents or the rink. My rink did have a test session but it was for dance and I'm not sure about the details (I wasn't involved in it).

As for adult skaters, once they get good in the lesson track there is a "now what" type of question and usually it's presented for them to participate in the ice shows. A few are asked about competitions and testing.

RachelSk8er

05-20-2009, 03:13 PM

Another thing to remember is that ISI does not exist everywhere. I've lived most of my life in Cleveland, and never even heard of ISI until I went to Miami for synchro camp as a teenager and met girls from Chicago who had been on ISI teams. I don't know of any rinks around here who offer ISI, none of the rinks I skate at offer it. I *think* the club tha that was my home club for most of the 90s now has a few beginner synchro teams competing both USFS and ISI (even though the club has historically been just USFS), and the team's coach has started competing ISI freestyle herself, but that's it.

looplover

05-20-2009, 03:17 PM

The general feeling at my former rink in FL - which had both ISI and USFSA but most adults stuck to ISI - was that ISI is friendlier and USFSA had too much sandbagging :)

The competitions are also cheaper, so that would figure in for adults as well.

It was my experience (and I'm really only speaking for myself here) that the bar was set a little low for ISI testing at my former rink...I looked forward to USFSA for the challenge, so other than cost I do prefer US Figure Skating. But there were others at my rink who liked that there was a little more wiggle room for passing tests, and I don't begrudge them that at all, it's just personal preference. It's very nice that both options were offered because I do think the presence of ISI kept some people skating who might have stopped otherwise.

w.w.west

05-20-2009, 03:25 PM

Simultaneously, it would be good for the Adult Committee to work on making sure the info on adult tests and comps in the rulebook is correct (which should be easier now that the rulebook is online). And disseminating that info. Honestly, if I didn't hang out on this board, I wouldn't know most of what I know about adult skating. And there are plenty of coaches and club officials that are in the dark, too. I keep seeing comp entry forms (and occasionally test forms) with incorrect rules for the adult events (ex: "Young Adult" categories, min age for Adult events listed as 25, wrong times and jump/spin limits for various levels).

The information in the rulebook gets input by administrative staff at headquarters. The Adult Committee has no control over that, they only provide the info. to get put in the rulebook (through Governing Council). Typographical errors are going to happen. It is unavoidable. Any info. that differs from the rulebook is posted on the website. It is up to the skater and coach to keep themselves up to date. To put it bluntly, if coaches and club officials are in the dark, it is their own fault. It is the coach's responsibility to provide the correct info. to their skaters whether it be standard track or adults. Comp. entry forms are the responsiblity of the chief referee and LOC not any USFS committee. Test forms are also the responsibility of the LOC. It is up to the test chairs to make sure they have the correct forms from U.S. Figure Skating and use the correct forms.

daisies

05-20-2009, 03:27 PM

Simultaneously, it would be good for the Adult Committee to work on making sure the info on adult tests and comps in the rulebook is correct (which should be easier now that the rulebook is online). And disseminating that info. Honestly, if I didn't hang out on this board, I wouldn't know most of what I know about adult skating. And there are plenty of coaches and club officials that are in the dark, too. I keep seeing comp entry forms (and occasionally test forms) with incorrect rules for the adult events (ex: "Young Adult" categories, min age for Adult events listed as 25, wrong times and jump/spin limits for various levels).

A) The committee does try to make sure the rulebook is correct. If you knew the process, however, you would understand how mistakes get made. It happens on the standard-track too. Many times corrections are submitted and simply accidentally overlooked. Stuff happens. And when it does, corrections are posted on the Web site.

B) Speaking of which, there is a lot of information in the adult section on the USFS site: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=46. How it is presented on the site, however, is out of our hands, as we only submit the info; their Webmaster posts it and is constrained by the site's limitations. But it's all there, a lot of it under News & Infomation (http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112): test requirements, next year's dance selections, IJS info, etc.

C) The adult rules in the rulebook govern two competitions and two competitions only: Adult Nationals and the qualifying side of Adult Sectionals. What an LOC decides in terms of age restrictions and events at their competitions is up to them. We can't force a club to read the rulebook and be up on/adhere to the changes we make. A report of action is released every single year after GC, and any club official worth their salt will read it. If they don't, well, it's not our fault.

D) SK8RX rocks. :)

ETA: E) w.w.west and I posted at the same time. She rocks too. :)

w.w.west

05-20-2009, 03:33 PM

A)
ETA: E) w.w.west and I posted at the same time. She rocks too. :)

Hee-hee...great minds think alike?:lol:

techskater

05-20-2009, 05:51 PM

I would love for my club to host Mids, but my job doesn't allow me to be home enough to do the work involved (my idea, my responsibility, right? ;))

I think your home club's board will need a break after hosting TOI Nationals/Internationals in June and Upper Great Lakes Regionals in October working with two sets of contracts and two different rinks AND also hosting the standard club competition in September... Just a thought, but I suspect it may be a couple years before the club bids on anything else.

SkateGuard

05-20-2009, 08:52 PM

Should USFSA as a whole or individual clubs or adult skaters affiliated with these clubs try to make membership and participation in USFSA activities more attractive to these skaters? What would that involve?

I think that kind of outreach would work better at a local level. Each club could offer programs to appeal to adult beginners or adult figure skaters who had been content just to skate and not test/compete that make sense in the context of the kinds of programs that the club already offers to other populations including active adult skaters. Maybe the Adult Committee could suggest some potential outreach efforts, but not all will be effective in every local context.

If people are happy puttering around open sessions, participating in social dance, etc--with no desire or intention of going beyond that--then do we really need to attract them? I'd rather focus on the newbies who perhaps would test/compete, if they knew it was an option....but are too green to understand all of these workings.

When I was in LTS as an adult, I had heard of Adult Nationals and dreamed that someday, possibly, I would be good enough to go to them. I was lucky to be in an "adult friendly" environment, with a coach who basically gave me the forms for my first few competitons, who still guides my skating career. I was lucky--the pro at the rink who taught adult classes knew I wanted to dance and wanted to go to Adult Nationals (I had heard about it), so she talked to my coach and started the ball rolling.

Good thing, too, because the world of skating was rather foreign to me. There is still, IMHO, very little information about what to do once you complete LTS. I knew that elite skaters had private coaches and special ice to themselves, but that was it. I didn't know how to join a club. I had no idea what you had to do to sign up for a test session or how to know when there would be an upcoming competition. I didn't realize that you had to track down the coach and ask for lessons--that a coach cannot solicit you. Even something like signing in for freestyle ice was confusing. Yes, there was some information available, but it didn't spell out all the nuances, like making sure your coach knew about Adult Bronze--heck, I didn't know about Adult Bronze!

Why? My LTS experience was rather informal. No levels. No booklets. No Basic Skills membership (at least that I noticed). No information as to what happens after Basic Skills. I have noticed that many rinks have a less formal structure for Adult LTS, which makes me wonder how many rinks are not including adults in their Basic Skills membership numbers. That would be where I would start--finding out how many adults are Basic Skills members and making sure that rinks are counting their adult skaters in Basic Skills. Then you include in the Basic Skills newsletter information on how to sign up for the adult skating newsletter, where the adult skating information is on website, etc.

Also, you can then trend data from LTS to testing/club membership, and club membership to ANs. We can all suggest ways to attract more skaters into the fold....but the bottom line is that any effective solution is based on understanding the problem (or if we have one).

I am not saying we need to exclude former-kid skaters (on the contrary, we need everyone), but the ones who skated as kids seem to have an awareness of the way things work, especially if they were testing/competing as teens. (They do, on occasion, get lost, but they at least know who to ask for help.)

And techskater, wrong club.

Skate@Delaware

05-20-2009, 09:32 PM

When my rink first opened (six years ago) the LTS program was it, there was no mention made about competing, testing, etc. The few adults in the LTS program were made aware of the ice show (they were asked to be in it) but that was it. They never knew anything beyond the LTS program. The skating club, which was in it's infancy, never even approached them for membership. Two years later, I asked the LTS director about testing and was told that "we don't do that" and "why do you want to do that?" 8O although the little kids were starting to compete by then.

It made me wonder how many others were ignored by their rinks & clubs? Even if it's just a few in each city, multiply that nationwide and you have a lot. (and we are in a small, rural town).

Debbie S

05-20-2009, 09:36 PM

Any info. that differs from the rulebook is posted on the website. It is up to the skater and coach to keep themselves up to date. To put it bluntly, if coaches and club officials are in the dark, it is their own fault. It is the coach's responsibility to provide the correct info. to their skaters whether it be standard track or adults. Comp. entry forms are the responsiblity of the chief referee and LOC not any USFS committee. Test forms are also the responsibility of the LOC. It is up to the test chairs to make sure they have the correct forms from U.S. Figure Skating and use the correct forms.I should have been clearer - it wasn't the test forms used for judging/scoring tests, it was the application. I believe I saw one recently that said you had to be 25 to take the adult tests.

The problem is that when coaches (and others) buy their rulebook, they assume it's correct. Actually, most coaches aren't used to so many changes each year - my coach, who is in her early 50s, has frequently been frustrated with the many changes she has had to keep track of with both adult and standard track and has said a few times, "They used to never make changes to the rulebook!". :) With everything going on with IJS and changes to WBP and the MIF changes, it has been a lot to absorb. But the problem with simply correcting the errors about adult skating and putting them online is that most coaches and club officials wouldn't think to go online b/c they wouldn't think anything is wrong with what is printed, b/c they don't teach or deal with that many adults, and adult skating is still fairly new, anyway. Now that the rulebook is going online, it should hopefully be easier to make changes and more likely that coaches will see them.

For example, two years ago, I skated in my then-club's spring recital, where they had judges come to do critiques of each skater. The test chair ran that part, giving each judge (they rotated so we only had 1 judge per skater) the WBP for that skater's level. Apparently, she copied that right out of the printed rulebook. Except that some sort of glitch had the WBP for Bronze totally wrong - it was really the WBP for Masters Novice. I had no idea until my judge (who was a nat'l-level judge who probably hadn't judged anything below Juv for a while) handed me the sheet at the end of the critique. I e-mailed the test chair about it afterward and she said she just copied the page from the rulebook. Since she is not an a competitive adult skater (and her kids obviously aren't), how would she know that anything was wrong? And what was posted online as far as the adult WBP was that chart that gives the rules for all the levels, not anything she could have printed out for 1 skater/level.

And that's one example. Another was the error still listing the slide chasses as part of the Silver test in the rulebook that was printed the season after the changes took effect. My coach had that rulebook when I first started working on Silver MIF (the end of that season) and I corrected her, b/c I hang out on this board and knew all about the MIF changes. Yes, the test form online was correct (IIRC it took a few weeks, and I think they still have it wrong - the focus/foci of the move should be edge quality and extension and they have the adult version of power listed - which was the focus of the Novice move that the slide chasses replaced -I've been meaning to e-mail the Adult chair to ask about that....) but coaches don't bring test forms to the rink when they teach lessons, they bring their rulebook.

Based on my conversations with my coach and other coaches about the MIF changes, it appears to me that coaches generally get most of their info about rule changes from e-mail blasts from the PSA. They saw what was posted online b/c the PSA sent them links. So it's important to get the PSA involved in recognizing adult skating and incorporating that into seminars and notifications.

And while the Adult Committee certainly can't force coaches and club officials to stay up to date, I think it can develop a plan to get adult skating info out to more people, such as the PSA, and clubs, through USFSA programs such as National Skating Month.

RachelSk8er

05-21-2009, 07:52 AM

If people are happy puttering around open sessions, participating in social dance, etc--with no desire or intention of going beyond that--then do we really need to attract them? I'd rather focus on the newbies who perhaps would test/compete, if they knew it was an option....but are too green to understand all of these workings.

This is why clubs with enough of an adult population should try to offer adult-only sessions, and make some exceptions. If you must be a home club or associate member for skaters to contract ice, or if you have to be a member of another club to walk on, waive those. (I know some of that is for liability, so have a release agreement for these skaters to sign that is separate from club paperwork just to have it on file). Waive higher walk-on rates for non-club members and charge them what members are paying for walk-on. That will get these people active in the club, maybe spark an interest in doing more, or at the very least promote camaraderie among the adults. It might get the newbies interseted in testing/competing but they won't have to shell out the money for club membership until they make the decision to go that route. And even if they never end up joining the club or the USFS, the club is still making a few bucks by them being there, so it's not a loss.

We had a 1.5 hr Sunday evening session for a few years, lost it due to numbers (a few people moved, some took time off, one had a baby), but we're trying this on Wednesday nights for summer...our summer ice is separate from the club, so hopefully it will fly for the summer and we can try to get something regular back for the season. I'm working on trying to get my club board to understand that we won't have more than a few people contract, but we will have ample, regular walk-ons to make up for that just as we did when we used to have the session. Adults just don't contract because schedules can be unpredictable. I'm even trying to get them to open it to age 16+ rather than 18+. The elite skaters won't do the session, they skate all day on their elite sessions, but there are low-mid level teenagers who would probably be more comfortable on a session with the adults (i.e. skaters physically more their size) than our sessions full of little kids all over who don't know how to look out for other skaters.

skaternum

05-21-2009, 08:37 AM

So it's important to get the PSA involved in recognizing adult skating and incorporating that into seminars and notifications.Good point. This is an area that the collective "we" haven't really paid much attention to.

And while the Adult Committee certainly can't force coaches and club officials to stay up to date, I think it can develop a plan to get adult skating info out to more people, such as the PSA, and clubs, through USFSA programs such as National Skating Month.I totally agree. Recognition and understanding of adult skating has come a long way since I started, but we could always do better with this area too.

rlichtefeld

05-21-2009, 10:52 AM

This is why clubs with enough of an adult population should try to offer adult-only sessions, and make some exceptions. If you must be a home club or associate member for skaters to contract ice, or if you have to be a member of another club to walk on, waive those. (I know some of that is for liability, so have a release agreement for these skaters to sign that is separate from club paperwork just to have it on file). Waive higher walk-on rates for non-club members and charge them what members are paying for walk-on. That will get these people active in the club, maybe spark an interest in doing more, or at the very least promote camaraderie among the adults. It might get the newbies interseted in testing/competing but they won't have to shell out the money for club membership until they make the decision to go that route. And even if they never end up joining the club or the USFS, the club is still making a few bucks by them being there, so it's not a loss.

We had a 1.5 hr Sunday evening session for a few years, lost it due to numbers (a few people moved, some took time off, one had a baby), but we're trying this on Wednesday nights for summer...our summer ice is separate from the club, so hopefully it will fly for the summer and we can try to get something regular back for the season. I'm working on trying to get my club board to understand that we won't have more than a few people contract, but we will have ample, regular walk-ons to make up for that just as we did when we used to have the session. Adults just don't contract because schedules can be unpredictable.

Some clubs, like ours, don't run the freestyle sessions. And, we have to cajole the rink into offering any freestyle ice, since they can sell it to hockey! Right now all the freestyle ice is anything left over after hockey and public sessions.

If I had to start skating now, I probably wouldn't bother. The rink does not make it easy for people that work to skate on freestyle sessions. When I started the adult group lessons were at 7:00pm and 7:30pm on weeknights. Now they are at 6:30pm, and attendance is way down. You just can't get from most parts of Atlanta after work by 6:30.

When I started freestyles, there were two nights that had sessions that started at as late as 6:30pm. Now, starting next week, the latest will be 5:20pm on only one day!! I'm at the office until 5:00 and the rink is a half hour away.

And, as I'm approaching 50, I find skating at 6:00am a little early for my bones and muscles. But, since I am afflicted with AOSS, I have to.

Rob

flo

05-21-2009, 02:19 PM

Most of the rinks around here also offer the fs sessions rather than the clubs. One thing we have done get the active group of adults together and purchase ice for a season. One of our rinks had a lower price for 4 or fewer skaters on the ice, and for a few years I bought ice 3 mornings a week for a group of 16 regulars and several subs. When that price became too high, a larger group of adults got together and bought at the full price. It was slightly higher than a fs session price, but it was at the time we wanted, 90 minutes and less crowded.

It was a great group and good ice.

Skate@Delaware

05-21-2009, 02:45 PM

The biggest problem we have found, is lack of marketing done by our rink. They advertise the shows. The rink occasionally puts out flyers for the LTS programs. Hockey is more widely-promoted, but the adults that come to the rink to drop off their little ones do not know that there are lessons for adults wanting to learn to skate unless they pick up a flyer.

There are special "practice" times before the lessons, but no adult-friendly public skates (I'm talking about sessions without wild hockey kids zipping around un-supervised). We have freestyle sessions, but at $12-15/45 mintutes, it's a bit pricey (compared to public sessions $6/2 hours).

SkateGuard

05-21-2009, 03:04 PM

This is why clubs with enough of an adult population should try to offer adult-only sessions, and make some exceptions. If you must be a home club or associate member for skaters to contract ice, or if you have to be a member of another club to walk on, waive those. (I know some of that is for liability, so have a release agreement for these skaters to sign that is separate from club paperwork just to have it on file). Waive higher walk-on rates for non-club members and charge them what members are paying for walk-on. That will get these people active in the club, maybe spark an interest in doing more, or at the very least promote camaraderie among the adults. It might get the newbies interseted in testing/competing but they won't have to shell out the money for club membership until they make the decision to go that route. And even if they never end up joining the club or the USFS, the club is still making a few bucks by them being there, so it's not a loss.

Good point--many rinks do foist the management of their freestyle ice to the local skating club. However, they keep the organization/management of learn-to-skate with the rink....to the point that at some rinks, the coaches who are affiliated with the club do not teach Learn-to-skate, and the LTS instructors may not be affiliated with the club.

What I have found is that, in this case, unless there is an established adult skating community, there are few to no adult-start skaters participating in the club. And these are the clubs who have serious misconceptions about adult skating......

In one extreme case, a LTS instructor told an adult skater she was "done" learning skating when she completed LTS. When the skater asked about the club/freestyles/privates, she was told that it was limited to "competitive" skaters, meaning, kids.

Perhaps an "adult membership" would be possible in these cases, where you get to skate on adult-only sessions, take lessons with club coaches, pay your share of the liability insurance, participate in the social activities, get the newsletter....but do not have test/compete priviledges or are members of US FigureSkating. Just a thought.

Ellyn

05-21-2009, 03:47 PM

Perhaps an "adult membership" would be possible in these cases, where you get to skate on adult-only sessions, take lessons with club coaches, pay your share of the liability insurance, participate in the social activities, get the newsletter....but do not have test/compete priviledges or are members of US FigureSkating. Just a thought.

Would this be something the club should offer? The rink?

They can only offer adult-only sessions if there are enough adults who would use and pay for the ice time to make it financially practical for the club.

Having one or more coaches who offer private or small-group instruction on these sessions in beginning freestyle, beginning ice dance, and/or whatever you want to call a class in edges and stroking that would take skaters beyond the learn-to-skate curriculum and begin to prepare them for Moves in the Field tests would be a good way to encourage adults to transition beyond learn-to-skate into the club.

What about adults who do want to test and compete and become members of US Figure Skating? If they get serious about testing, let alone competing, they'll need more than one session a week they can skate on. Can they transition to full membership when they reach that point, or does this kind of club actively want to prevent adults from becoming full-fledged figure skaters?

It's true that adults moving out of group lessons are more likely to stay at the transitional level and less likely to become skilled enough to hold their own on sessions with competitive kids whizzing around whipping off double jumps. But many kids moving on from group lessons also need time to improve skating skills and awareness before they're really ready for serious freestyle sessions. So if the club wants to offer a session that would be safe and friendly for low-level figure skaters who may or may not move beyond that level in the future, and if there aren't 20 or so adults interested in participating in such a session each season, maybe an all-ages transitional session would be a solution. Call it bridge program or low freestyle or family session or social freestyle/dance session or whatever.

The kids may be more likely to move on to full-fledged freestyle or tend to do so within a couple of months, and more adults might be inclined to stick with that level and not try to move on. But some adults will want to push themselves further, and some kids might not. The club can benefit from welcoming all these skaters with appropriate programming and membership levels.

On the other hand, if the local rink(s) can't even provide enough ice time to accommodate the existing figure skaters in the area, the club may not be interested in attracting many new members of any age. And they certainly wouldn't be able to offer a whole separate session for those new members.

Clubs that have historically been focused on the kids could benefit from being introduced to the opportunities that are available nationally to adult skaters and to how adult members can contribute to the club as board members or volunteers in different ways than parents of the kid skaters can. Coaches also can expand their client base to adults (should they so choose) if made aware of the opportunities. So if many local clubs and coaches are not welcoming to adult skaters and there isn't already an adult skating community in the area, new adults who take up skating won't have local sources of information. It would be useful for US Figure Skating and for those of us who are active as adult skaters to spread the word to clubs and coaches who might not have much access to this information.

But the specific strategies each club chooses to attract new members and specifically adult members will vary depending on the local situation. I'd hate to see any club discriminate against potential members on the basis of age as much as on any other basis. But each club needs to work with its own local situation. One size will not fit all.

AgnesNitt

05-21-2009, 04:53 PM

I have very little first hand knowledge of ISI but <snip>. I've heard that USFS took quite a few ques from ISI in developing the LTS program after listening to critisisms that they were so over focused only on elites. So in a way, maybe we could credit ISI for making USFS more user friendly. PSA does have a vacume when it comes to mentioning adult skating in their programs, even though when pressed about it, they will claim "yes, ummm, adults are important too" I think they're starting to get the message but it will be quite awhile before it gets full recognition. - but it will happen.

I have no experience with USFSA, but 3 years in ISI. I've heard from long term ISI members, that USFSA saw its membership dropping because recreational skaters were defecting to ISI. ISI competitions had a lot of 'fun' events: family routines, interp, light ent. etc, that USFSA didn't have at the time and people could participate at a low skating skill level provided they had imagination and musicality.

I like the relaxed attitude ISI has. Since I'm on the too old and too fat to jump track:lol:, I rather like that imagination and a sense of humor in a program, are as well thought of as skating skills. (The Big Guy and I are working on a program where he's Elmer Fudd and I'm Bugs Bunny--what would USFSA think of that? :lol:)

So there's a place for both organizations.

Skate@Delaware

05-21-2009, 05:20 PM

I have no experience with USFSA, but 3 years in ISI. I've heard from long term ISI members, that USFSA saw its membership dropping because recreational skaters were defecting to ISI. ISI competitions had a lot of 'fun' events: family routines, interp, light ent. etc, that USFSA didn't have at the time and people could participate at a low skating skill level provided they had imagination and musicality.

I like the relaxed attitude ISI has. Since I'm on the too old and too fat to jump track:lol:, I rather like that imagination and a sense of humor in a program, are as well thought of as skating skills. (The Big Guy and I are working on a program where he's Elmer Fudd and I'm Bugs Bunny--what would USFSA think of that? :lol:)

So there's a place for both organizations.
Yes, there is a place for both and that's what is nice-we actually have a choice! I can choose to skate freestyle under ISI OR under USFS. I'm only limited by my test level, elements of each, and where the competition is (and how far I'm willing to drive, and if it's far, I need to go solo but I'm a big girl).

vesperholly

05-21-2009, 08:22 PM

In one extreme case, a LTS instructor told an adult skater she was "done" learning skating when she completed LTS. When the skater asked about the club/freestyles/privates, she was told that it was limited to "competitive" skaters, meaning, kids.
Wow, that is incredibly rude and shortsighted. Who turns down business opportunities??

Perhaps an "adult membership" would be possible in these cases, where you get to skate on adult-only sessions, take lessons with club coaches, pay your share of the liability insurance, participate in the social activities, get the newsletter....but do not have test/compete priviledges or are members of US FigureSkating. Just a thought.
Good idea but I'm not sure it would work through USFS clubs. My club and others in the area require USFS membership of all its members (home club or not), I believe it's got something to do with insurance.

SkateGuard

05-21-2009, 09:25 PM

RE: adult memberships...

Good idea but I'm not sure it would work through USFS clubs. My club and others in the area require USFS membership of all its members (home club or not), I believe it's got something to do with insurance.

Hmmm....I would guess that whatever dues you would pay would cover that liability, as well as any requisite waivers. I think USFSA membership is the easiest way for clubs to accompish that goal. On the flip side, I've walked on ice at rinks all over the country....only twice was I asked if I was a member of the USFSA. (In both instances, the club had purchased ice from a private school explicitly for club members, so it made perfect sense.)

The goal here would be to offer a price break for 1. Adult skaters who are not interested in testing/competing but want the health benefits of skating 2. Skaters who are running out of levels in LTS but aren't ready to become full club members. 3. Where the home club membership is over $100/yr but does not offer any perks (free ice time) to justify the high price. It would only be necessary in places where the USFSA club runs the weekly freestyle sessions--and as a result, club membership is required in order to continue past LTS, to skate recreationally, etc.

I have noticed quite a few public/park district rinks using this setup where the park district runs the group lessons while the USFSA club runs the figure skating program. Ironically, some of these rinks have very few USFSA testers/competitors--the skaters do mostly ISI and are USFSA members just so they can skate on the freestyle ice!