david lowery arrested?????? [Archive]

phskate

07-07-2003, 08:06 PM

Today they did meet (just lawyers and judge). No news, I wish that followed along with the old saying, "No news is good news". It really doesn't though. I am afraid this will be a slow process. We will probably go a long stretch here without much happening. I suppose it will probably end up being a case of, how fast he wants to get this over with. I am sure that his attorney can delay it or speed it up.

I appreciate everyones concern and interest. When this is over, I intend to see that no skater ever wonders for a second where he or she should go for help. That no skater ever hesitates to tell. Maybe my son will over come this, I hope, and maybe even make it to a National, World or Olympic title or maybe he will just end up coaching other kids to achieve their dreams. Which ever it is, I don't want him nor myself, to be a part of a skating world that doesn't value children. I don't want the kids to ever get the idea that they have to suffer in silence or that they are alone with no one to turn to about something like this. Our kids need a voice, and all of us, who refuse to tolerate actions like this, must stand up and be that voice.

jkl

07-07-2003, 09:49 PM

phskate,
That was beautifully stated. I wish you and your family the best.

iskater13

07-08-2003, 05:44 AM

Thank you for the update, it is most appreciated. I wish the best for your family and hope that you will keep us updated. I just had a baby boy myself and I would never want him to go through something so awful as this!

WeBeEducated

07-08-2003, 03:42 PM

Beautifully said, PH.
I am with you all the way.

Phuket

07-08-2003, 07:22 PM

PH, thanks for your reply. You and your son are both very brave. Doing the right thing isn't always comfortable or easy. I hope you can find some comfort knowing that what you're doing now will help others in the future.

What's next? The attorneys and the judge have met. Did anything come out of this meeting? What's the next step?

I don't want to get ahead of the ongoing events, but my fear is that these charges will be dismissed....and that you and your son will feel ashamed and assume that others will blame you or not believe what you've said. Please know the court of law is a very tricky thing. Justice is not always served. Whatever the outcome, you've made the first step, others will follow. You are supported.

Take care....and please continue to let us know how this is proceding.

skateflo

07-09-2003, 04:45 AM

PH,

I hope you also have been in contact with Ellen Edgerton via her web page--
http://www.silent-edge.org/index.html

I know she was very supportive and helpful with another high profile abuse case, and truly cares.....

We all keep you, your family, and your son in our hearts. It takes tremendous courage to address all the issues that come from such an event. Support for you all comes from all over the world.

Poohsk8s2

07-09-2003, 09:59 PM

PH - you have a tough road ahead. I wish you success, but mostly I thank-you and your family for your courage! I hope that I never know your pain, but you have given an element of comfort to those past who have spoken out and to those in the future who will know that they can have a voice. Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you!!!!!!!!!

what?meworry?

07-19-2003, 01:39 AM

do i understand correctly that he has been indicted?
so now it will be the usual lengthly "due process" before anything of significance occurs?

herein lies the tricky part---the "negotiations"---the "considerations" of his "contributions"---consideration of his family.

these are the times that are trying. the time that is hard for the victims to sustain their resolve.

i truely hope you guys hold firm. i know it is a burden that is more than most could sustain, but please understand that your courage in this matter will prevent others from falling victim to such predatory behaviors by trusted coaches.

phskate

07-19-2003, 07:30 AM

There is a pretrial hearing on the 4th of August at 9:00am. We stand firm and committed to seeing this through.
My son skates again on ice far away. I hear hope in his voice. I miss him terribly and feel cheated. We drove him there a week ago and dropped him off. I was ok for the first fifty miles or so and then I saw my son's face, the face I had seen so often lately. The face that showed the hurt and confusion and depression that was overwhelming him, and it broke my heart and I cried. “He loved those two people.” I said to my husband, referring to Rita and David Lowery. “Yes he did,” He said, “I once asked him what would he do if something happened to his mom and he said well I wouldn’t live with my Dad, I would probably live with the Lowerys.” I nodded I remembered the statement. It had been at a time when he had been angry. Angry about the move, angry about a lot of things but he was glad about one thing from the very beginning, Rita and David Lowery. I think at one point I could honestly say that he loved those two people, loved them like grandparents. He would have done anything for them. That made all of this so much worse.
I am sure I felt like every mother that has ever dropped her kid off at a college a thousand miles away but it was worse. It was worse because it felt premature. I felt cheated. He wasn’t 18 yet. He wasn’t finished with high school. He shouldn’t be leaving, and there was a part of me that really felt like this would end up with him leaving for good. I wasn’t ready for him to be gone. This was his last summer of “childhood”. This should have been the best summer of his life. It should have been carefree and wonderful. He should have trained hard and played hard. He should have worked at the rink and then goofed off with his friends. He and his partner should have reached peak performance by the time they got to Regionals and the gold would have been theirs. They should have been on the top of the world by the end of this year.So it wasn’t just maternal angst at dropping him off it was a broken heart for all that had been lost.
I felt so angry. Angry that I had one child skating on one end of the country and one on the other. The anger was worse because I knew that David Lowery did not, could not and probably would never be able to comprehend the damage that he had done.
And for my son? What will he remember about this summer? Will he remember himself as a courageous and responsible and caring human being who spoke up for himself and the others who could not. Will he remember that thousands of people sent him encouraging words and words of thanks. Will he remember the woman with the 8 year old boy who wrote thanking him because ultimately it was people like him speaking out that would protect her own son. Will he remember that even after feeling like he had lost everything, he looked up at me through tear filled eyes and said “But Mom I can’t stop. I can’t let him get away with this. It’s wrong. I have to go on. I can’t let this happen to anyone else.” Will he remember that I told him that he was, and remains, my hero. That he is the bravest and most courageous person that I know.
Or will he only remember the losses, the pain, and the depression.
And what about my little girl, what will she remember? My sweet baby. I will never forget her face as long as I live when she looked at me with tears rolling down her face, when we told her. “Oh God, I knew it was something bad, but I didn’t know it was this bad.” She had shook her head trying to make, what made no sense, somehow clearer. Then that face, the dawning of the ramifications of all of this, eyes spilling over with tears, she spoke almost in a whisper, “My friends, I won’t get to see my friends.” My tears had joined hers, “Oh baby, I am so sorry.” Why hadn’t I thought of that? Why hadn’t it occurred to me? She loved the ice, she loved to spin and jump, to perform. But she was only 10, a little girl and it wasn’t just skating, it was her life. It was her social life, her working life, her world. Will she remember this summer as the summer when she lost her best friend, lost her ice and her coach, whom she trusted. She tells me she will never trust a coach again. That she will always wonder. How sad to realize so young that the world is such an ugly place.
Mothers always say if any one ever harms their kids they better watch out. I have said myself that if this ever happened to one of mine I would just kill the guy. Now I realize that killing isn’t enough. For him to lie stone cold dead on the ground isn’t enough. If he were dead he would feel no pain, no humiliation, no loss, he would feel nothing. No I do not want him dead. I want him to live. I want him to suffer. I want him to feel the effects of what he has done for the rest of his natural life. I want him to feel, just as my son, and my daughter, and my family must feel the effects, for the rest of our lives. My only regret is that he is an old man and he won’t suffer as long as we will.
Not to worry, about our resolve to continue in this matter, it is strong.

Elsy2

07-19-2003, 09:17 AM

Your post has brought tears to my eyes, and I want to thank you for sharing your story and feelings. I really could not have imagined the total impact on the family, and it is heartbreaking. All my best to you and your family. I hope that justice prevails and you all find peace and strength through this......

Poohsk8s2

07-19-2003, 02:48 PM

Phskate, your angst is palpable. Reading the effects this has had on your family turned my stomach, broke my heart, and left me weeping. I know that as hard as things are now, time will heal. You too, are to be revered for your courage. There is nothing harder than parting with a child, but the love that you have sent withhim will grow in his heart and give him strength in those times of despair. I have said this before, but I will continue to send prayers out for your family. Stay strong, and know that there are so many grateful parents and skaters that feel you are all heroes.

I wish that you could use your in a semi-article type manner to be published in every skating magazine throughout the country. It would be so enlightening to those who cannot imagine how deep the ramifications scar.

chattykathy

07-19-2003, 10:46 PM

phskate-

Hang in there! Our kids are most often more resilient than we are. I know from experience that there is a light (and even skating) at the end of the tunnel! There are good coaches with high standards and ethics out there. I find myself asking more questions and being at the rink a bit more than I was last year, but so far its only proved our decision was a good one.

Skatewind

07-21-2003, 09:50 AM

I feel so bad for the kids who end up relocating to another rink because of things like this. Besides the disruption in their everyday routine, they lose friends & role models. It's very difficult, considering chldren are already generally isolated by the skating process.

WeBeEducated

07-21-2003, 03:33 PM

The very few skaters who have openly supported this boy have been banned from the freestyle ice sessions by the Lowerys, who control the ice.:twisted:

Elsy2

07-21-2003, 09:16 PM

Send them south of the border.....I think you'll know what I mean....;)

valuvsmk

07-21-2003, 09:38 PM

popeye

07-21-2003, 11:07 PM

I do not understand-- Who controls the ice time- the owners of the rink? the club? - How would either party allow the accussed decide who is allowed on the ice?

Flatfoote

07-22-2003, 12:12 AM

Wasn't he suspended until this is resolved? How can he still have that kind of control?

Phuket

07-22-2003, 07:56 AM

It is my understanding that Rita and David purchased the ice time. They in turn sell it to the skaters. In other words, the Lowerys are able to dictate who may and who may not use the ice.

Although David is not allowed to *be around children* (I can't remember the exact legal jargon), he is still very much in control of the rink through Rita.

I was really quite shocked when I was told that people who supported the young man were banned from the rink. In my mind, this makes it easier to understand why people who aren't directly involved turn a blind eye. I'm not saying I agree, just that I understand.

I am saddened and disgusted by this whole situation. I just pray that it's resolved, the truth comes out and appropriate measures are taken.

Skatewind

07-22-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Flatfoote
Wasn't he suspended until this is resolved? How can he still have that kind of control?
He was suspended by the skating club. However, skating schools are usually run through the rink or by individuals or corporations who purchase the ice & then resell it to the skaters. You have to look at how the bulk of the ice time is offered for FS at a rink. It is usually not through the club which only purchases a limited amount.

Skatewind

07-22-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Phuket
Although David is not allowed to *be around children* (I can't remember the exact legal jargon), he is still very much in control of the rink through Rita.
The bond document states "Defendant shall have no contact with juveniles except family members. Contact with juvenile family members may take place in the presence of another adult family member."

WeBeEducated

07-22-2003, 04:56 PM

Lowery has a contract with the rink management. He purchased the ice for freestyle in blocks, and sells it to the skaters for a profit. Under this arrangement he and Rita alone control who may coach or skate on the ice. The contract is up for renewal in August. Unfortunately, I think nobody there has the courage to challenge his control.
The skaters who have been banned have skated there daily for 3 1/2 years. They have medaled at regionals, competed at Junior Nats and Sectionals on levels from Novice to Junior.
They are the only skaters at the rink who are quietly but openly supporting the boy. They know both sides of the story. They know both the coach and the boy quite well, and they knew they would risk losing their ice time if they took a stand.
I am very proud to know them.:)

Flatfoote

07-22-2003, 05:12 PM

A huge salute to those who are brave enough to take a stand. From the boy and his family, to those who are openly supporting them.

Actually, the Lowreys are probably rather stupid to ban skaters that support the boy. How is that going to end up looking in a regular court? Punishing those who dare to take a stand against him just doesnt' exactly add to his character reference.

sonora

07-24-2003, 12:26 PM

Is this a public or privately owned rink?

Is rink management aware of the situation?

speedy

07-24-2003, 01:24 PM

The very few skaters who have openly supported this boy have been banned from the freestyle ice sessions by the Lowerys, who control the ice.

Incredible. Are there any other rinks in your area? This sounds like an appallingly disturbing place at which to skate, much less hand your money over to.

adrianchew

07-24-2003, 08:54 PM

Is there a USFSA club under which the ice arrangements for the freestyle session are bought under? If so - perhaps the USFSA can be asked to take appropriate action against the club if members are being denied access to ice time, etc. Or is the ice time bought directly - in which case, nothing much can be done for now.

sonora

07-24-2003, 10:00 PM

If it is private ice to the Lowerys, someone needs to have a little chat with the rink about what insurance coverage covers, prior knowledge and what that means with respect to the rink's liability, etc.

Anyone who is personally involved with this situation who would like to email me for private help with this approach is welcome.

CrazySkateFan

07-25-2003, 08:15 AM

phskate

07-25-2003, 08:48 AM

None of the charges have been dropped. If you wish to see the current filings on this case follow this link http://www.courtclerk.org/aps/ttl/lns/cociw002.asp?B0305539

Skatewind

07-25-2003, 09:29 AM

Saying 3 of the 4 charges were dropped would be a pretty meaningless defense to the charges anyway, if the one that's still charged is sexual battery under the code that defines the abuse by a coach who is in a position of authority.

Also the standard is different for civil & USFSA proceedings than it is for criminal proceedings.

Regarding the rink, it's a privately owned rink. I thought it was one of the rinks that was under Family Golf. A skating club or the USFSA wouldn't have any say over private ice leasings unless it's time they have leased.

CrazySkateFan

07-25-2003, 09:30 AM

In reply to:
"None of the charges have been dropped. If you wish to see the current filings on this case follow this link"

IF this is true, it proves my point that you can't believe everything you read on the internet.......

Skatewind

07-25-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
For the record, 3 of the 4 original charges were dropped.
Where can the record be found that is referred to in this update?

Sk_dad

07-25-2003, 11:21 AM

After reading this thread, I have a question or 2 and a comment.
1) CrazySkateFan – would you please post where you heard/read that ‘3 of the 4 original charges were dropped’ after following the link phskate posted it looks as if Hamilton county has not dropped any charges and the seem to keeping this site up to date but you may have a more current source.
2) As far as ‘IF this is true, it proves my point that you can't believe everything you read on the internet.......` the only way to keep false rumors from spreading is to check the facts before you say something.

Some of the facts that exist to date:

David Lowery is indicted on 4 felony counts.

He has barred skaters from the ice he controls.

The skater in question is a minor and any kind of touching, improper language or suggestion to a minor should and will get a coach/skater barded from the USFSA.

Now my comment:

It seems to me that there is only one good reason to barring skaters from the ice (since ice is paid for upfront) and that would be to punish the skaters and to frighten others from speaking against him or coming forward with information. I expect that the other coaches at the rink are walking a fine line (if they are banned from the ice there goes their livelihood).

As to someone coming forward and taking control of the ice. I do not think it would be a mater of courage but more a mater of finances. (I do not know but I would bet the rink wants to be paid upfront for the ice and not a lot of people have that kind of money).

It is my opinion that (mostly based on the knowledge that child molesters do not start molesting children in their 60’s and things I have heard or read ) that this is most likely not the first time that he has done this. I wonder how many time a child has cried in their mother’s arms loving skating and knowing that if they came forward they would lose everything.

As little as 4 years ago the USFSA under a different president (David Lowery’s son by the way) dismissed similar charges the big differences is that that skater was an adult when they came forward and he waited until he could take it.

This is not an attack on the USFSA (as I understand it they have been very helpful ) but it is important that we look at the environment our kids are in. Do they feel they can come forward if they are molested or will the cost be to great . Would my daughter feel she could tell me or would the fear that all of her friends would be lost, she lose her rink, her ice time, and would she be labeled a liar?

We parents own and control skating in the US and if this continues it is our fault. This boy is a hero for coming forward, (if what he said is true … and I believe it is ).

The grand jury felt that there was enough evidence to indict Lowery. That means that at least 11 out of 13 people though the boy was telling the truth. If you are going to speak to ‘Let's not try this case in the court of public opinion!’ the victim is this boy and don’t you feel that he deserves the same or more compassion from us and the parents at his (now lost ) rink.

As far as ‘It's not good for those involved nor is it good for the sport’ I agree it is not good for the sport to have coaches abuse our children. It is not good for our kids to think if anyone, little less than their coach, where to hurt them that they can’t expect protection and support for us the skating parents.

WeBeEducated

07-25-2003, 03:50 PM

Thank you sk_dad for saying everything I wanted to say!
I believe you understand the situation perfectly.

Four skaters have been banned :
the boy who brought charges and his sister
and the 2 skaters who support the boy and were coached by Lowery from 1999 throughout 2003 Midwestern Sectionals. These skaters moved with their parents twice to follow Lowery , to 2 different states, and endured tremendous sacrifice as a result.
No written reason was given for the ban. A letter from Lowery's attorney stated that they had lost their skating and coaching priviledges.
That's all right...they stand firm in their belief that they do not have to
cover up atrocities in this sport anymore. They believe (and hope)the USFSA has changed significantly since 1999.
They are frustrated by the immense skating inconvenience and disruption to their part time coaching income they now must endure, but,
they are not fearful.

Skatewind

07-25-2003, 04:23 PM

I noticed he is still on the club's web site as one of their coaches even though his coaching privileges have been suspended, which cannot be in a club's best interests considering there are pending felony charges.

sk8er1964

07-25-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Sk_dad
......This boy is a hero for coming forward, (if what he said is true … and I believe it is ).

Hear hear, Sk_dad. I have said the same in PM's, and I say it again here publicly. This brave young man is a hero - I applaud him and I hope that his bravery can stop this kind of thing from happening in the future.

iskater13

07-26-2003, 05:31 AM

When the lowery's coached here in detroit (80's)......it was common for coaches from DSC to have kids from other states stay in their homes for the whole skating season, I always wondered why???

kgl2

07-26-2003, 02:13 PM

It's common everywhere, depending on the living situation and the support needed to keep the kid training and on track. Some kids could never stand to live with the coach, as it is skating talk all the time! Unless you have an exceptional kid and coach, and the coach's family is really into having "foster kids" around, it can be a disaster. But for many people it works, and it's healthy, so I wouldn't look at that as an indicator of anything questionable.

chatterbox

07-26-2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
The very few skaters who have openly supported this boy have been banned from the freestyle ice sessions by the Lowerys, who control the ice.:twisted:

Can we clarify this here, how many people have actually been banned from the ice???? Is it the boy and his sister and just 2 others or more than this?

I'm sure the boy and his sister have been advised to stay away from the rink for legal reasons in any case - but how many other have been banned? This is important, WeBeeducated implies that a lot of people have been banned. How many? Does anyone know?

Originally posted by WeBeEducated Four skaters have been banned :
the boy who brought charges and his sister
and the 2 skaters who support the boy and were coached by Lowery from 1999 throughout 2003 Midwestern Sectionals. These skaters moved with their parents twice to follow Lowery , to 2 different states, and endured tremendous sacrifice as a result.

Does WeBeEducated have a personal interest in the other 2 skaters that have been banned? Since this post has created such a stir, lets just get the facts straight on this.

WeBeEducated

07-26-2003, 07:59 PM

I believe the post clearly states that 4 people have actually received letters informing them that their skating priviledges have been revoked.
I do not see any sentence in my post that says MANY skaters have been banned, nor was it implied.
Those are indeed the facts, clear and simple.

Skatewind

07-28-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by chatterbox
Does WeBeEducated have a personal interest in the other 2 skaters that have been banned? Since this post has created such a stir, lets just get the facts straight on this.
What other facts do you have to share? WeBeEducated has shared a lot of facts, along with opinions, regarding this particular case. So what is the point you want to make? It seems that poster answered your question about how many were banned before you asked it. It's not really relevant to the matter of whether the boy was abused or the pending felony charges; other than as a reactive measure by a skating school or it's coaches which could possibly be in violation of the USFSA policy statement on harassment & abuse.

Phuket

07-28-2003, 06:36 PM

I've read chatterbox's post several times. It didn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. I've always thought WeBeEducated's posts have been clear and informational.

:roll: {shrug} I'm not really sure what chatterbox was after...unless it was to intimidate WeBeEducated.

Skatewind

07-29-2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by chatterbox
This is important, WeBeeducated implies that a lot of people have been banned. How many? Does anyone know?
If we want to "just get the facts straight on this", what was actually stated by chatterbox above is not what the other poster stated at all. So there are indeed some mixed up "facts".

One thing that was indicated is rather troubling though: "No written reason was given for the ban. A letter from Lowery's attorney stated that they had lost their skating and coaching privileges." If these skaters were banned after the grievance was filed, it certainly seems there is a possibility it could be a violation of the USFSA harassment policy, which specifically prohibits Retaliation or Threats of Reprisal, and states "Retaliation or threats of reprisal against an individual for filing a complaint under this policy or for participating or assisting in any procedure under this policy will be considered harassment for the purpose of this policy."

sonora

07-29-2003, 11:27 AM

I agree with Skatewind that it is a probable violation of USFSA regs, and I hope the affected skaters will contact the Grievance Committee.

Perhaps they should also file grievances.

schutz

08-01-2003, 03:27 PM

There is the possibility that the Lowery's run their own skating school and purchase the ice themselves. If this is the case, they would then sell the ice to the skaters and could therefore decide who they allow onto the freestyles.

Just a thought-

WeBeEducated

08-01-2003, 04:29 PM

Yes, the Lowery's buy the ice and resell it.
There really isnt any kind of a "skating school" but they buy the ice under the name Cincinnati Skating Academy. The "Academy" consists of Rita and David Lowery. Period.
Two of the banned skaters have had complete access to the ice for years until last month, when one of them spoke to a detective about the case.
At that point, they received news that they could not skate there.
The message being sent is clear to all the young skaters...
if you question the "innocence" of Lowery, or support the boy who brought charges, you will not be skating at that rink.

Skatewind

08-04-2003, 08:45 AM

Legally they can pick & choose who buys their ice & who does not. However, whether it would be considered a violation of the USFSA harassment policy considering the previous circumstances with the skaters vs when they were banned is a different matter for consideration.

sonora

08-04-2003, 09:45 AM

It also may be considered witness tampering or harassment by the prosecutor if a skater was banned from the ice after giving a statement.

iskater13

08-04-2003, 09:57 AM

So, If rita and david lowery are the """Skating academy in cincinatti"""............then what happened at the ten other places they taught at over the past decade. I read on another post that they have taught at many places, when they were here in detroit they taught at Detroit skating club and owned the pro shop. Anyone have any info this???????LOL

phskate

08-04-2003, 04:00 PM

Pretrial hearing today. A continuance was asked for. More waiting. Anyone with any information concerning possible or actual abuse by the party in question please PM me.

sonora

08-04-2003, 04:13 PM

I have asked around, no useful info yet.

Was it pros or defense asking for the continuance?

What reason was given?

CrazySkateFan

08-15-2003, 07:37 AM

Skatewind

08-15-2003, 08:04 AM

According to the document filed on 8/4, the continuance was "at the request of counsel for both the State & Defendant" for the purpose of Plea Negotiations. It was not only requested by the prosecutor & the document specifically gives the option to choose one or the other or both.

Phuket

08-15-2003, 09:21 PM

Am I understanding this correctly? Are they talking about a plea bargain?

what?meworry?

08-16-2003, 12:00 AM

a plea bargain is not necessarily "bad."
an acceptible plea would involve never working with young skaters again. adults, maybe, but kids, never! and, given the circumstances, permemant banning from usfsa.
what disturbes me, however, is the apparent retaliation against skaters via permission to skate on competitive ice at the rink and the rink not making alternative opportunities available to the skaters until the issue is resolved.
and, what about the coaches of the other skaters or were they also with lowrey?
if so, would they not benefit from moving to work with another coach?
then again,isn't it just bad ol' intimidation? you betcha!

jennifer1104

08-16-2003, 09:06 AM

yes... this is the david lowery that was once in detroit, mi

sonora

08-16-2003, 12:42 PM

I'm with you, whatme worry. Over 90& of all criminal charges are resolved with some sort of plea bargain. Banning from coaching, from associating with youngsters, etc, would be a good result here.

But the harassment and banning of the supporting witnesses has to stop also. I hope those involed make sure the prosecutor is aware that this is going on.

I also hope anyone who has had experience with Lowery current or past will contact the prosecutor and give a statement. While past conduct may not be admissible at trial, it is important for the prosecutor to know if this is repetitive behavior when they are negotiating the plea.

sk8ingMom

08-24-2003, 09:59 PM

If the Lowerys buy the ice and sell it under the name Cincinnati Skating Academy, then they are most likely members of the USFSA and ISI. Then they will have to abide by the rules set forth by the USFSA in regard to policies of harassment, insurance and have liability insurance for skaters while on the ice. This will also prevent them from banning skaters who have prepaid contracts for the ice.

There is something you as a parent of these skaters can do. File a grievance with the USFSA against them. But do you really want them to be coaching your children and skating at this rink after all that has been done? Is there another rink in Cincinnati? I would think so, but hey I have never been there.

Originally posted by sonora
I have asked around, no useful info yet.

Was it pros or defense asking for the continuance?

What reason was given?

ice mommy

08-25-2003, 01:35 PM

I don't know anything about Cincinnati or the ice available there, but I must point out that there are times when you wind up having to skate at rinks which you would prefer to avoid. One of those times is when your skater's coach finds the rink convenient or is employed there.

Skatewind

08-28-2003, 01:46 PM

Any update about the court appearance scheduled for yesterday?

phskate

08-28-2003, 02:02 PM

No nothing yet. I have a strong feeling that nothing happened but perhaps another continuance. I have a call in to the prosecutor but I haven't heard yet.

phskate

08-29-2003, 10:15 PM

continuation for discovery... defense wanted copies of video taped statements.

sonora

08-30-2003, 10:09 AM

(sigh)

Hang in there

icesktrkidz

08-30-2003, 03:31 PM

I was wondering if your lawyer is aware of all these posts and what his take of the internet discussion of the case? I'm not questioning your intentions but rather the legallities involved?

phskate

08-30-2003, 04:18 PM

The prosecutor knows these boards exist. I am not sure if the civil attorney does or not. I have tried to be very careful in what I have put out on these boards, with the exception of one very emotional post, I have only stated the facts that are common knowledge. Discussion by people that know us well and some that hardly know us at all go on every day in the real world. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and free to state it, unless of course it is in some way slanderous. That is why it is important to just state the facts that are public knowledge. I rec'd a lot of help from the original post in this case, knowledge about who to contact and how, people who volunteered support and help to my son. The information concerning continuances, and trial information, is public knowledge and available to all who seek it.

WeBeEducated

08-31-2003, 12:23 PM

Some good news...:D
the Lowery's have not been given a renewal on their contract for control of the freestyle ice at the rink in cincinnati.:D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D

iskater13

08-31-2003, 06:29 PM

Glad to hear some progress is being made:0) Thanks to everyone for their updates;)

Skatewind

09-02-2003, 07:10 AM

I don't see anything wrong with phskate's posts so far, especially now that everyone is referencing the same link for updates about the felony charges. When it comes to USFSA grievance procedures, which are very different from the criminal proceeding, discussion of the policies & procedures can be helpful. Since the vast majority of skaters at any given skating club or locale will never have to file a grievance & won't be familiar with the procedures, this is one way to obtain information & assistance.

iskater13

09-07-2003, 05:14 AM

DO we have any news this week, I often think about this and hope the families are doing OK! LOL:roll: :roll:

WeBeEducated

09-13-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by iskater13
DO we have any news this week, I often think about this and hope the families are doing OK! LOL:roll: :roll:

The families are doing fine.
Not sure if your lol and rolling eyes indicate a sarcastic interest in their welfare, but I am happy to report that they are coping beautifully with the emotional, social, and pragmatic challenges related to their stand against child abuse.
In terms of their skating, the situation caused alot of problems and stress initially, but all went on to arrange training in better locations with highly professional coaches.
In fact, many coaches from all parts of the USA spoke to them at various rinks and competitions over the summer, validating their opinions, and sharing similar perceptions. The number of wonderful, respected coaches who extended sympathy and support renewed their faith in the integrity of the sport.
They have been empowered by this situation.
It has been difficult, but their decision to risk losing local "friends", financial assistance, convenience, and even training time has been a decision that allowed them to witness the development of their own courage.
They are not afraid. They are not quitting. They feel proud to have taken a stand in a difficult situation.
Locally, among their peers they stood alone. This was the most difficult and shocking aspect of the entire experience for all of them.
These skaters have a story to tell....not about how one coach mistreated his students, but how they were faced with the choice to do the right thing, and how they never flinched in their conviction to do so. Doing the right thing isnt always the easiest path, and in
this case that certainly applies. But they emerged as strong young people; skaters with dreams, people with heart, friends with integrity.

all is well
:)

phskate

09-13-2003, 06:08 PM

Thank you WeBe, very well stated. I have never been more proud of my son or the friends and coaches that supported him. Excellent coaches and olympic athletes supported him and encouraged him and showed him that just because he was in the skating world he didn't have to tolerate what had happened to him. They showed him the meaning of the word integrity.
Integrity is the key word here, and integrity, honesty, and courage will win this fight in the end. My son will win it for himself, for the others whose fear forced them into silence, and for the people who have believed in him and supported him.
We are saddened at the loss of those we thought of as friends and equally saddened at the message they continue to send to their children. We hope and pray that in the end they will see how wrong they were, for the sake of the children, to whom they so loudly have sent the message, don't talk, don't tell.
Rumors abound that we have put our son in this situation for money. What kind of monsters would we be to have put a healthy, happy child, whom we loved, through this nightmare. A child whose skating was doing well and who had a bright future. They say, the supporters of the abuser, that "It doesn't make sense. Why would he lie..." and say those things about their wonderful coach. They are right. It doesn't make sense. There is no reason in the world that anyone would put themselves through this hell with a made up story. There is no amount of money in the world that this would be worth. No amount of money that we would except to make this go away.
We will see this to trial and we will see him punished for the crime he committed by the legal system that is in place and by the associations that oversee the skating world.
Thank you Webe...and thank you to the wonderful people that have supported us and stood with us and offered help and support. It was so valuable and so precious, worth more than all the money in the world. If I had a choice between riches or friends, I would take friends any day.
Pretrial on September 16th....keep your fingers crossed they will set a date for trial. We stand firm and with intergrity still intact. Thank you all.

singerskates

09-13-2003, 11:50 PM

May God keep you and be with you, phskate and your son also. Important thing, "The truth shall set you free".

sk8er1964

09-14-2003, 09:36 PM

phskate - glad to hear you are all hanging in there. We're behind you! Thanks for the update, WeBe.

Poohsk8s2

09-14-2003, 10:03 PM

Hang in there all of you! We are proud of your bravery and courage. Good thoughts and prayers are with you.

iskater13

09-15-2003, 08:05 AM

The eyes rolling in my post was supposed to be a ""cute"" symbol, sorry for any confusion. I am truly interested in this case, due to the fact I used to skate at DSC and knew the Lowery's a long time ago(but i am not a personal friend). I support any decision the families involved make and wish the very best in the coming year:0)

chatterbox

09-17-2003, 03:37 PM

I think that it's great to see this young skater is determined to see this case through to it's conclusion. So many people would have given up their fight by now for lots of reasons. Making a stand is never easy.

This young man will (I'm sure) continue to skate and reading the posts on this thread suggests he will be a successful skater, and is more determined than ever to succeed. But I don't think that there should be any shame in considering a plea bargin to help resolve this situation. This could make a big difference to this young skaters future and bring him oppurtunies that he may not have had otherwise. I really don't think that this would mean selling out.

Lets face it, now the accused has lost his ability to work etc etc he really is no longer a threat....an elderly man at the end of his career is going nowhere fast! The publicy around this case means that people will be aware of this man. Lets face it, what a sad way this is to end a long career.

Producing a positive result from this terrible affair should be a priority for everyone. Having a public list of banned coaches and the reasons for their bans should be held by USFSA (or someother responsible board). This could then be regulary circulated to all ice rinks/skating clubs etc. I'm not aware of any set procedure for checking a coaches ability to teach (or see if they are banned, had complaints filed against them). As a parent it would be great to have one point of contact that could put your mind at rest, before booking your childs skating lessons. If this is already in place it's not very well advertised.

phskate

09-17-2003, 05:11 PM

I think that it's great to see this young skater is determined to see this case through to it's conclusion. So many people would have given up their fight by now for lots of reasons. Making a stand is never easy.

Yes Chatterbox so many would have given up the fight by now. My son is a very brave young man who continues in the face of many forms of opposition.

But I don't think that there should be any shame in considering a plea bargin to help resolve this situation. This could make a big difference to this young skaters future and bring him oppurtunies that he may not have had otherwise. I really don't think that this would mean selling out.

No, no shame in considering a plea bargain, and we have not discounted completely that option. The criteria for a plea bargain that would be acceptable, that the man plead guilty to at least two counts that reflect what he actually did. Misdemeanors are not acceptable. Pleading guilty to two, of the four felony counts, will cause him to have to register as a sexual offender for 10 years, and thus garantee that he won't be allowed around children.

Lets face it, what a sad way this is to end a long career.

Am I suppose to be sorry for this? This man committed a terrible crime. If he has ended his career in a sad way that has negatively impacted his ability to make a living or embarrassed him or his family, it is not my responsibility to alleviate any of that for him. He had the nerve to ask me once, not to ruin Rita's life. I will tell you what I told him. "Whatever comes of this to ruin anyones life it will not be me that is the cause of it, it will be you Mr.Lowery, you are the one that committed the crime."
A message must be sent to every coach out there that abuse in any form will not be tolerated. If that means that there are coaches whose careers end sadly, then so be it, they are the ones that chose to commit the crime.

chatterbox

09-18-2003, 06:15 AM

Lets face it, what a sad way this is to end a long career.

I apologize. This comment didn't come across the way it was meant. I didn't mean that you or your son was to have any guilt or feeling of responsibility for how this affects the coaches’ life. You have your own family to think of. This is why I thought considering a plea bargain might end with a positive result especially if this helps your son to skate (I'm sure you know what I mean).

I meant that on the coaches’ part, that the amount of shame and disgrace he has brought upon himself, his family and the skating world will be with him forever. And it is a sad way to end a long career (even though it is his own fault). People have long memories and I'm sure there is little doubt that he won't work again. Whatever the outcome of this case the coach will always have this disgrace to carry with him; there really isn't much he can do to rid himself of this.

So no matter what the outcome, your son has already achieved a great deal in making this matter public. Even if the coach is found not guilty (it might happen!*!*!), the damage has been done.

To be fair though, I do think that Rita Lowery should be left out of this. Unless she was a witness to what happened, or was aware of things going on. She is no more responsible for this situation than you are. I'm not aware of any allegations against her. She is a skater and a coach in her own right. Why should her ability to work and go about her business be affected by her husband’s actions?

Unfortunately none of us can be responsible for other people’s actions, even if they are family.

Flatfoote

09-18-2003, 05:52 PM

Lets face it, what a sad way this is to end a long career.

I agree with what you're saying Chatterbox. Perhaps though, the word "sad" should be replaced with "pathetic." It is pathetic that this coach chose to damage his career, and the lives of those around him like this.

As for Rita Lowrey. From what I've read on this thread, the only one putting Rita Lowrey into this situation is David Lowrey. If she chooses to "stand by her man," she deserves whatever may happen to her own career.

Skatewind

09-23-2003, 12:34 PM

What was the outcome of the continuance that was requested by the defendant & rescheduled for September 16?

phskate

09-24-2003, 02:47 AM

Lowery fired his attorney. Hired a new one and the new attorney was given until 9/23 to review evidence, another pretrial on 9/23 - another continuance was granted to the new attorney to give him some more time to review evidence. New pretrial date is October 7th.
In the meantime my son is more depressed than ever and my daughter can't sleep for the nightmares she keeps having. I took her to the doctor today and she has gastric reflux and she has been up for days. He put her on an antidepressant. I just got home from work at the hospital and discovered she was still up pacing the floors at almost 3am.

Skatewind

09-24-2003, 08:05 AM

It's too bad they are dragging it out like this & it is affecting your children this way. :(

iskater13

09-24-2003, 09:15 AM

I am so sorry to hear about your childrens troubles through all of this, it is terrible that this is what they are living through, being a new parent I can relate to some of it. However the truth will come out and David firing his lawyer kinda shows that he understands that the outcome may not be what he wants.

As for Rita Lowery..............No one can live with a person for that amount of years and have absolutely no clue of what is going on, unless they just have a marriage of convenience and do not truly love each other. :D

armchairsk8r

09-25-2003, 07:15 AM

Amen!!!

iskater13

09-25-2003, 10:34 AM

Do the lowery's have any children of their own??????

Skatewind

09-25-2003, 11:31 AM

Yes but why not leave them out of it? They are grown & do not live with them & I don't really think it's right to include them in this whole thing.

candace

09-25-2003, 08:06 PM

Yes, they do have children. They have a daughter that is married, and has to be in her middle 30's or so.

WeBeEducated

09-26-2003, 02:30 PM

They have 2 very nice grown children, a son and a daughter.
Only the daughter was/is involved in the skating world.

peaches

09-26-2003, 04:34 PM

Kristen married Todd Waggoner (who used to skate with Gillian Wachsman).

Skatewind

09-30-2003, 06:55 AM

Posting the names of his uninvolved children on a topic like this is really low class & has nothing to do with the charges against him. The name of the victim in this case is also a fact that is known to people, but it doesn't make it right to post it. Same goes for his children IMO.

dr.frog

09-30-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Skatewind
Posting the names of his uninvolved children on a topic like this is really low class & has nothing to do with the charges against him. The name of the victim in this case is also a fact that is known to people, but it doesn't make it right to post it. Same goes for his children IMO.

Lowery's children are *adults* now -- e.g., I remember his daughter from her competitive days and imagine she must be about 40 years old now. Protecting the identity of minors is one thing, but we're talking about a middle-aged woman here.

FWIW, I do think that Lowery's family connections to other prominent people in the skating world are relevant to the charges against him. Besides his own children, Lowery was adoptive father to the late former USFSA president Jimmy Disbrow, and I have often wondered not only if Lowery allegedly managed to get away this kind of behavior for so many years because he had friends in high places to protect him, but also whether Disbrow's irrational behavior with respect to the Callaghan case during his tenure as USFSA president was an attempt to squelch any investigation of abuse before it reached back to his own family.

peaches

09-30-2003, 10:21 AM

Skatewind

09-30-2003, 10:43 AM

You can be as bitter as you want about the Callaghan case, but this is about David Lowery abusing children, not his daughter abusing children. Unless you have specifics to share about how she has covered up for him in some way (in which case it's better to drop the "allegedly's" & provide details), then it is not right to put the spotlight on her, irregardless of her age.

Skatewind

09-30-2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by peaches
Feel free to report it to a moderator then, but please refrain from bashing me by calling me low class.
I did not bash you or call you low class. It referred to the activity of posting names in this manner to stir the pot. Maybe you misread what I wrote.

peaches

09-30-2003, 10:51 AM

My comment remains the same - don't like the post, report it. If a mod deems it necessary to edit, they will. :) Have a nice day.

Skatewind

09-30-2003, 10:53 AM

I had an opinion about it, which I thought we were entitled to have since this is a message board. I did not suggest it needed to be deleted by a moderator. Thanks, you have a nice day too.

phskate

09-30-2003, 10:55 AM

This is not about David Lowery's kids. This is about Lowery himself. Perhaps his 'higher up' connections in the skating world are relevant. However, all we will accomplish with this line of discussion is getting the thread shut down and frankly I would rather not see that happpen. I rather appreciate the fact that it exists and we can talk and keep this situation out in the open for all to know about. Thanks guys for your support and help.

peaches

09-30-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Skatewind
Unless you have specifics to share about how she has covered up for him in some way (in which case it's better to drop the "allegedly's" & provide details), then it is not right to put the spotlight on her, irregardless of her age.

People mentioned the Lowery's have children, I happen to know them, used to work with Kristen, and mentioned her name and who she married, that's not putting the spotlight on Kristen for anything other than being married. I think you're taking my post and turning it into something it's clearly not. I was simply responding to the posts prior to mine.

Skatewind

09-30-2003, 11:17 AM

The post you are referring to was not in response to one of yours.

So much for phskate's comment that this topic is not about David Lowery's kids.

dr.frog

09-30-2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by Skatewind
You can be as bitter as you want about the Callaghan case, but this is about David Lowery abusing children, not his daughter abusing children. Unless you have specifics to share about how she has covered up for him in some way (in which case it's better to drop the "allegedly's" & provide details), then it is not right to put the spotlight on her, irregardless of her age.

I have never insinuated that Lowery's daughter abused children or participated in a cover-up of Lowery's abuses. (Perhaps it is more likely that other people tried to cover up for Lowery in the past to protect his daughter.) But in any case, I think that you're blowing this all out of proportion. Someone asked if Lowery had children, perhaps out of concern that they might be minors at risk themselves; other people responded that yes, he does have children, but they are adults now. That's just a statement of fact, not an accusation that they are somehow involved in or responsible for Lowery's behavior.

phskate

09-30-2003, 11:36 AM

I think that you are right Dr. Frog. The question was asked in innocence and initially responded to in the same way. So lets don't fuss with each other about it. The enemy is not each other but an evil man that has been getting away with this for far too long.

Arsenette

09-30-2003, 11:39 AM

To get back on topic - what's the latest news? What are the next dates?

phskate

09-30-2003, 12:17 PM

Pretrial on October 7th...hopefully they will set a trial date. My two skaters are seriously depressed but holding on. My non-skating 15 year old son is ill. We just discovered he has 50-79% stenosis of his carotids, bilaterally. We are awaiting the results of an MRI and an MRA of his head and neck to try and discover what other problems he might have. Just a little added pressure to the already building steam. Prays are wished for and welcomed.

Skatewind

09-30-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by dr.frog
That's just a statement of fact, not an accusation that they are somehow involved in or responsible for Lowery's behavior.
The name of phskate's son is just a statement of fact too. Why plaster names of people's children, their skating partners from 1988, & all this other unrelated information instead of concentrating on the man's child abuse? The reason people don't openly name victims in these situations is so they won't be victimized yet again. There's something to be said along those lines for the children of these perpetrators as well, who have to pick up the pieces of their lives after something like this happens. It's not the gossipy aspects of it all that will encourage people to report incidents of abuse, but it might keep some people from getting involved when they see the abuser is not the only point of focus.

iskater13

09-30-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by phskate
I think that you are right Dr. Frog. The question was asked in innocence and initially responded to in the same way. So lets don't fuss with each other about it. The enemy is not each other but an evil man that has been getting away with this for far too long.
Yes I asked the question in innocence.........and yes ""The enemy is not each other but an evil man that has been getting away with this for far too long."""" LOL to everyone involved

WeBeEducated

09-30-2003, 04:08 PM

I think there is a little truth in all these different opinions about
whether or not it is relevant to mention names of those close to Lowery who are part of the skating world. It IS relevant, and it was innocently, factually mentioned by Peaches.
I know the entire family, and even on the other thread that was closed, I never mentioned the names of family members who were seperate from the skating world. Originally on that thread though, some folks were unsure of who he was, where he had coached, and unaware of how his connections were so extensive in the skating world. To help put a face to a name, I listed family active in the skating world and some well known former students.
On this thread though I think it is clear that nobody has any desire to rehash all of that now. We want to know the facts and the progress being made, and to learn more about the effects of this crisis on those close to the situation.
The comments made by dr.frog are insightful and relevant though to a much bigger issue and that is the depth of the coverups prior to the year 2000.

peaches

09-30-2003, 05:12 PM

unaware of how his connections were so extensive in the skating world

ITA we could have an entire thread on the Six Degrees of Dave Lowery much like the one with Kevin Bacon/Hoyywood, lol. WeBE, we probably know who each other be. :lol:

iskater13

10-01-2003, 05:08 AM

When i post LOL it means lots of love, not lots of laughs........and the previous posters words were correct that we want to keep this thread open and be able to post new news. LOL

md2be

10-01-2003, 11:43 AM

PHSkate...sounds like you all need a vacation.
There is nothing more important in life that one's health.
Please, take time to take care of all of you....if that means going away for a weekend, DO IT, no matter what the $ is.

Skatewind

10-02-2003, 12:55 PM

The message boards are a great way to get information distributed about documented abusive behavior. In my area, lots of people also know David Lowery. FWIW from the feedback I've heard from many of them, these threads lose ground once they degenerate into the Salem Witch Hunt approach, where every partner, ice show, student or whatever becomes linked to a negative topic. Also, since it's about child abuse, generally people tend to want to see it taken seriously, not taken lightly or turned into games. These topics take on a life of their own sometimes, but it seems it's important to try to stay on topic in cases such as this due to the extremely serious & sensitive nature of the subject matter. It really is a great way to get widespread information out quickly, but not if people no longer consider it a credible source where they find relevant & accurate information about the issue.

sk8er1964

10-09-2003, 01:13 PM

Bump - didn't want this one to disappear.

Any news?

phskate

10-09-2003, 03:35 PM

Pretrial for October 7th didn't happen, Lowery and his attorney didn't show, waited for 1 1/2 hours and then the judge rescheduled for today. Haven't heard from anyone today to know what happened.

IdmaIjan

10-09-2003, 07:19 PM

David and his lawyer didn't show up?! Are there any consequences for that? I wouldn't think someone with the charges David faces would be able to blow off the court like that.

Can anyone with a legal background give some educated guess as to what's going on?

ole skater

10-10-2003, 09:29 AM

There are many possibilities. They may of filed for a continuance or may be in talks for a plea bargain. Only time will tell.

Skatewind

10-10-2003, 03:17 PM

The latest document on the court site shows the continuance rescheduled for Oct 9 from Oct 7. Reason given is lawyer not available 10/7.

WeBeEducated

10-10-2003, 03:37 PM

Isnt it strange that nobody was informed that his lawyer was unavailable? They waited for 1 1/2 hours!
Is this typcial of courts?

sonora

10-10-2003, 04:10 PM

It's not atypical. Sometimes a hearing on one courtroom runs later than expected, then you miss your time in another court. Someone should have kept the victim and family informed though.

Phuket

10-10-2003, 07:30 PM

Has there been any word about what happened on the 9th?

WeBeEducated

10-14-2003, 08:08 AM

Trial date is set for FEB,2004

hihomom

10-15-2003, 10:31 PM

I'm a skater mom who works at a rink in Florida. I was appalled at what David Lowery did. Even more than that, I was infuriated with the coaches who pompously looked at me and said, "Oh, we knew David was doing these kind of things for 40 years!" How dare they let this pervert continue to coach and be around children, if they in the least suspected what he was doing? I hold these pompous, idiotic, stupid coaches as much to blame for what happened to these priceless, innocent children, as I do David Lowery!

It's our job as adults, to take care of all children!!!!

Flatfoote

10-15-2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by hihomom
I'm a skater mom who works at a rink in Florida. I was appalled at what David Lowery did. Even more than that, I was infuriated with the coaches who pompously looked at me and said, "Oh, we knew David was doing these kind of things for 40 years!" How dare they let this pervert continue to coach and be around children, if they in the least suspected what he was doing? I hold these pompous, idiotic, stupid coaches as much to blame for what happened to these priceless, innocent children, as I do David Lowery!

It's our job as adults, to take care of all children!!!!

ITA with you. In fact, I would think those coaches who knew he was doing that stuff should be just as unqualified to teach young children as the original perpetrator.

Elsy2

10-16-2003, 07:32 AM

I might be a bit out of line here with this comment....but many of the coaches today that say they knew what was going on were young skaters themselves when they were aware of this. Remember that Lowery is up there in age, so someone coaching today in their 40's or even 50's would not really have been in a position to do anything. He would have been an authority figure to them....

I don't really disagree with you....

phskate

10-16-2003, 08:25 AM

Again I ask, anyone with any names of anyone, that have said they knew what was going on, or were aware of Lowery's problem, or knew a victim, or possible victim, please contact me. No matter how small or insignificant the comment. There IS a trail and I am attempting to retrace it. We go to court Feb 2, 2004. I am a mother fighting for her son's sanity in this. I asked all of you moms out there on this list and any other people that you may know to assist me in this. PM me with any information no matter how insignificant. It all adds up. I will not allow him to walk away from this. My son and my daughter have sacraficed too much to allow that to happen. Contrary to public opinion this is not about money. We have already turned that down. This is about horrible injustice by a trusted coach, that must be answered for. A message must be sent. This will not be tolerated or allowed. Please help me with any info you can gather. The bigger my information gathering team the better the big picture of the trail will be. Thanks for your help and support.

phskate

10-20-2003, 09:35 AM

A wonderful tip came in from someone that is going to be very helpful. Thank you again to the person that PM'd me. But I am not through looking. I want as many cards in my hand as possible. Anyone with any information no matter how small PM me. The person that PM'd me before didn't even have a name but I did and it allowed me to put a name with a location. Thanks so much to all of you that have shown support. The count down to my little war has begun and I am not going into battle empty handed. ;)

iskater13

10-24-2003, 07:11 AM

bump :0)

hihomom

10-25-2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Elsy2
I might be a bit out of line here with this comment....but many of the coaches today that say they knew what was going on were young skaters themselves when they were aware of this. Remember that Lowery is up there in age, so someone coaching today in their 40's or even 50's would not really have been in a position to do anything. He would have been an authority figure to them....

I don't really disagree with you....

The coaches are as old as Lowery is, in their 70's, so they were colleagues. They're from New York and Canada originally and I don't know what their relationship truely was with the man.

peaches

10-25-2003, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by phskate
A wonderful tip came in from someone that is going to be very helpful. Thank you again to the person that PM'd me. But I am not through looking. I want as many cards in my hand as possible. Anyone with any information no matter how small PM me. The person that PM'd me before didn't even have a name but I did and it allowed me to put a name with a location. Thanks so much to all of you that have shown support. The count down to my little war has begun and I am not going into battle empty handed. ;)

I know you want info, and I'm all for protecting youth and getting coaches removed from situations where they may be a threat to students, but please be careful. Anyone could find out where he was teaching years ago, say they took from him, and come up with a story to fit the right time frame. It would be their word against his, as it will be anyway. I'm not saying he's innocent, but you can't take every PM from every loon out there as gospel. Having cards in your hand and having TRUTH in your hands are very different animals. Any disgruntled former student may take this opportunity to make a false accusation against Dave. I think it's fine to post FACTS regarding this case, but to out and out start something like this, IMO, is going over the line of what needs to be on a public board. Just, please, be careful with this.

WeBeEducated

10-25-2003, 09:49 AM

Peaches you are so wrong. There has not been a plethora of wicked, gossipy, made up lies against Lowery.
Everyone I know that was involved with him began the relationship with respect and high hopes.
Even those who didnt particularly like him have been careful not to accuse him of anything serious in a casual or irresponsible manner.
Those who truely suffered unethical behaviour however, carry in their hearts more pain than anger, and generally moved away from him and often skating altogether, sadly.
I dont think you need to worry about false accusations.
It is important to seek honest and relevant information from those who were rumoured to have been affected though, and that list seems to be out there in the skating world legitimately, not made up in the minds of revengeful skaters.
A reputation developed over many years, and many locations, speaks for itself!
good luck phskate

phskate

10-25-2003, 10:08 AM

I know you want info, and I'm all for protecting youth and getting coaches removed from situations where they may be a threat to students, but please be careful. Anyone could find out where he was teaching years ago, say they took from him, and come up with a story to fit the right time frame. It would be their word against his, as it will be anyway. I'm not saying he's innocent, but you can't take every PM from every loon out there as gospel. Having cards in your hand and having TRUTH in your hands are very different animals. Any disgruntled former student may take this opportunity to make a false accusation against Dave. I think it's fine to post FACTS regarding this case, but to out and out start something like this, IMO, is going over the line of what needs to be on a public board. Just, please, be careful with this.

Give me some credit Peaches. I am not taking "every PM from every loon" as gospel. I am simply putting together pieces that were missing from a puzzle I already have. And why do we assume that everyone out there is a loon willing to "make up a story" about "Dave". Has he been such a bad coach that I would get all the "loons" out there stirred up to send me their "false accusations". I am not POSTING everything I receive. Thats why I said PM me. Did I devulge names of the person that PM'd me or the person I found as a result of that PM? Did I give a descriptive story of it on this board? I did not, nor do I intend to. I am a mother and I will use what ever tools are available to me to gather information to have justice done and this man pay for the damage that he has caused to my family. I am sure that the defense will use every trick and every card at their disposal to gather information against us.
And that having been said, here we go again with the statement of "false accusations". Must we assume that anytime anyone has anything to say about a coach it is a "false accusation". Yes it is your word against theirs. But if enough people all say the same thing. People that don't know each other. People who have nothing to gain. If enough people have the same story, know details that only a victim could know, then the evidence that they can't ALL be lying begins to add up. "Becareful" you say. I am being very careful. I am gathering my information with great care. I am sticking the pieces of the puzzle together and it is painting a very ugly picture. "Dave" best loose his arrogant demeanor and realize that he messed with the wrong boy. He may have gotten away with it for years, he may even have been able to fool his wife for awhile but as long as their is breath in my body and I can type, make phone calls, chase down leads, in what ever way I can, I will continue until I have all the pieces and "Dave" and his little disgusting run have come to an end.

peaches

10-25-2003, 10:39 AM

I just think there needs to be genuine concern for all of this being on a MB. As a former student of Dave and Rita both I'm not immune to the rumours that went around, but I can also say I never saw anything that would have been considered inappropriate on either of their parts. I'm not saying nothing happened, but I do think that once you open a can, you might find there are some people that have legitimate stories and some that don't. I'd hate to see you play some cards that were not truthful and find the defense discrediting you somehow, or casting doubt on *your* evidence, that's all I meant by saying be careful.

Also I think there's a fine line between being interested in the case and people just wanting to be gossipy and this thread is walking a very fine line with that right now. JMO.

I hope it all turns out for the best and that the truth does come out, whatever it may be.

Editing because you keep putting Dave in " " and I was wondering why. ? We always called him Dave.

phskate

10-25-2003, 10:54 AM

I understand what you are trying to say Peaches. I understand your concerns. I am attempting to validate every piece of information that I have. I have an excellent prosecuting attorney who is checking out everything that I am giving him. He is aware of every method that I have used to obtain information and my sources. The internet is a very powerful tool and a relatively new tool. Information can be gathered and verified and compilied in hours, when it used to take weeks or months. I am simply making use of a very powerful tool, and let me assure you and relieve your worries, I am dotting all my i's and crossing all my t's and being very very careful with the information that I am gathering.
As a former student of the Lowery's I am sure that you can understand why it is so difficult for anyone to believe the stories. They present themselves very well. We loved them at first too. I am sorry for you that you are hearing things about a coach that you liked and I am sure trusted. That is what is so painful about a crime involving a coach. The damage to trust is overwhelming.
I know that there have been times both the threads that sprung from this situation where it has taken a very "gossipy" tone. I tried to curtail that by asking for PM's and not having them post everything that they had heard on the thread.
Editing because you keep putting Dave in "" "" and I was wondering why. ? We always called him Dave.
As to my putting his name in "" , I suppose that has to do with the fact it gags me to even speak his name. I refrain from putting the title of Mr. in front of Lowery. The thought of speaking his first name, even of typing it, is repellent. So I quoted your use of his name. Sorry I just find him too offensive to address in any personal way.

peaches

10-25-2003, 12:02 PM

I never said it's hard to believe the rumours or stories, but I do have a problem with someone, anyone, being tried in the court of public opinion. If someone has proof, I want it to come out. If he's guilty, I hope he's put away. If he's not, however, his life is ruined. I have no proof so I'm leaving my opinion open and I am waiting for the trial. I know you want info, but I also think to avoid any messes persons are best directed to come forth with any information to the appropriate authorities, not a poster on a message board. I do feel for you and hope for the best outcome, and that is for the courts to decide. In the meantime I worry about this forum and posters here being implicated in a lawsuit should Dave be found innocent.

CrazySkateFan

10-25-2003, 01:27 PM

Good idea, Peaches! Wait for the facts to all come out BEFORE forming an opinion! And not trying any case in the court of public opinion....another good idea.

I'm with Peaches. I'll wait until the facts are all availale before deciding. Unlike some that post here, I don't have all the facts. Although, I doubt those who claim they do, actually have all the facts either.

I think it's just a good idea to sit tight and see what plays out in court before hanging Mr. Lowery. Fortunately, this is still a country where you are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Of course, even if the courts find him innocent, his career is most likely over. It would be very difficult to overcome the implications of a case like this.

WeBeEducated

10-25-2003, 02:32 PM

Well , maybe if you had been face to face with one skater's story,and he leaves the sport, and you somewhat ignore it because of doubts,
but then , a year passes and another young man and his family bring you a similar story, and they leave,emotionally distraught, and still...you hold out, trusting, NOT wanting it to be true
and then a few years pass and yet again, almost identical methods, and experiences are related by a different person...and you see first hand again the anguish, the hurt, and the betrayal on the face of yet another skater who put total trust in a coach and in the integrity of the world of skating,
you might begin to realize that something that you hoped was NOT true
is actually blatently obvious.
Does inappropriate behaviour behaviour force difficult repercussions onto the innocent spouse? of course
In this case, I know for a fact that Rita though has been aware of various accusations because I told her myself a long time ago.
I told her about the skater who came to me with his mother in tears...and
She made a choice.
I stood by her then, and I stood by Lowery.
If she heard similar accusations a few years ago however, how could she have been surprised this time??
She made a choice and must live with those consequences.
She is a really neat person; sophisticated, clever, creative, and very hard working.
But she made a choice to accept and protect Lowery. In this day and age that isnt a woman's only option.
But it IS the option she chose.
Actively participating in the efforts to discredit the victim, his family, and his supporters blurs the line of "innocence" in my book.
Anyway,
The internet is a tool for communication.
Whatever information is collected via the internet will be put to the test in the courts as you wish, but there is no reason to avoid seeking helpful tips.
It is done all the time.

CrazySkateFan

10-25-2003, 02:57 PM

RE: Actively participating in the efforts to discredit the victim, his family, and his supporters blurs the line of "innocence" in my book.

Who's doing that? I haven't read anything like that. No one is discrediting the alleged victim, his family or supports. Although there is a lot of discrediting towards Lowery and his family.

I certainly am not discrediting anyone. I'm still supporting waiting until all the facts come out in court where they count the most.

peaches

10-25-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
RE: Actively participating in the efforts to discredit the victim, his family, and his supporters blurs the line of "innocence" in my book.

Who's doing that? I haven't read anything like that. No one is discrediting the alleged victim, his family or supports. Although there is a lot of discrediting towards Lowery and his family.

I certainly am not discrediting anyone. I'm still supporting waiting until all the facts come out in court where they count the most.

So I'm not the only one here trying to hang on to the innocent until proven guilty concept, whew! I admit it's difficult to do so and the first response is to think "what a monster, let's lock him away!", and like I said, I certainly heard rumours when I was taking from him, but I also heard nasty rumours about Rita as well. I chose to then, as I am now, to wait and see if any proof ever arises. If it does, I'll be the first to say put that guy away, but until that time, I'll try to avoid forming an opinion on his guilt. I'm realistic, I know that just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it never happened. Just because it didn't happen to me doesn't mean it never happens to anyone and I've certainly seen coaches abusing authority before, though not in that way thank God. I'm just trying to be fair minded and keep in mind that more than one man, or woman, has had their career ruined by false accusations.

Also, I am worried, seriously, about the fact that if the court finds Dave to be innocent he will then have a case for libel and defamation of character not only against anyone who has posted things of that nature here, but also against the administration who let it remain on this board for so long. It is something to consider and something, perhaps, that needs to be asked of an attorney. Asking for anyone with information to come forward is fine, but IMO they should be directed to the authorities and/or attorneys who are qualified to handle this. They'll need to talk to someone firsthand anyway, it's not like you can go to court with "I heard it through the grapevine" on the prosecution side.

dbny

10-25-2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by peaches
So I'm not the only one here trying to hang on to the innocent until proven guilty concept, whew! I admit it's difficult to do so and the first response is to think "what a monster, let's lock him away!", and like I said, I certainly heard rumours when I was taking from him, but I also heard nasty rumours about Rita as well. I chose to then, as I am now, to wait and see if any proof ever arises. If it does, I'll be the first to say put that guy away, but until that time, I'll try to avoid forming an opinion on his guilt. I'm realistic, I know that just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it never happened. Just because it didn't happen to me doesn't mean it never happens to anyone and I've certainly seen coaches abusing authority before, though not in that way thank God. I'm just trying to be fair minded and keep in mind that more than one man, or woman, has had their career ruined by false accusations.

Also, I am worried, seriously, about the fact that if the court finds Dave to be innocent he will then have a case for libel and defamation of character not only against anyone who has posted things of that nature here, but also against the administration who let it remain on this board for so long. It is something to consider and something, perhaps, that needs to be asked of an attorney. Asking for anyone with information to come forward is fine, but IMO they should be directed to the authorities and/or attorneys who are qualified to handle this. They'll need to talk to someone firsthand anyway, it's not like you can go to court with "I heard it through the grapevine" on the prosecution side.

Very well put.

what?meworry?

10-25-2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by peaches
So I'm not the only one here trying to hang on to the innocent until proven guilty concept...I certainly heard rumours when I was taking from him, but I also heard nasty rumours about Rita as well. I chose to then, as I am now, to wait and see if any proof ever arises...
Also, I am worried, seriously, about the fact that if the court finds Dave to be innocent he will then have a case for libel and defamation of character not only against anyone who has posted things of that nature here, but also against the administration who let it remain on this board for so long.

first of all. phskate and her son are seeking justice. if more skaters historically had the guts to take a stand maybe her son would not have been "allegedly" victimized.

second. there is now a very high ranking coach who basicly got away with it. the first attempt for an abused skater, now an adult, to seek justice after years of pain and therapy. it was too old for the court system, but a stream of victims and immediate (historical) witnesses gave depositions---to no avail---since usfsa at the time did the usual sweep it under the carpet.

third. if the above had not "hit the fan" publicly, the coaches who have been banned for abuse would still be abusing students.

much of what you say smacks, to me at least, of the kind of intimidation that is used to keep things quiet and victims or close family/former partners/other witnesses from stepping forward.

yes, people need to be careful about the "innocent until proven..." for there have been false accusations against coaches about all sorts of things by angry parents/skaters who want to cause trouble, but by and large, when situations like this, young, maclellend, and the guy who got away with it come out, many many people stand up (as now) and say there were "rumors" about "him" for years.

there needs to be balance and common sense applied, but the days of intimidation and silence are over.

peaches

10-25-2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?

much of what you say smacks, to me at least, of the kind of intimidation that is used to keep things quiet and victims or close family/former partners/other witnesses from stepping forward.

No, the only thing my posts smacks of is not taking someone's word at face value and waiting until I see proof.

many many people stand up (as now) and say there were "rumors" about "him" for years.

Exactly, rumours. Can they prove it? If they can, then like I said before, I'll be the first one to be screaming for him to be locked away for a very long time. If he is found guilty, I'm all for justice being served.

I would love to know how not taking a rumour as absolute proof is intimidation. There was nothing in my post that could possibly be construed as intimidating. I am concerned for this board though, because, like I said, if he is found innocent, there may or may not be legal issues with the fact that this was here. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know, but it's worth thinking about at the very least, yes?

I'm done, I've said my piece on the matter. You guys can do what you want.

what?meworry?

10-25-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by peaches
...Also, I am worried, seriously, about the fact that if the court finds Dave to be innocent he will then have a case for libel and defamation of character not only against anyone who has posted things of that nature here, but also against the administration who let it remain on this board for so long. It is something to consider and something, perhaps, that needs to be asked of an attorney....

THIS. the intimidation of direct or implied lawsuits against individuals or the "boards." this isn't the first coach or coach's supporter who has implied grave consequences to open discussion of a real situation. lowery has been indicted and the discussions so far mostly reasonable opinion and reporting of information as the attempts to get this to trial (or a plea that keeps him from coaching youth) progresses.

an expression of caution is appropriate. imo, this is more than that.

peaches

10-25-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
THIS. the intimidation of direct or implied lawsuits against individuals or the "boards." this isn't the first coach or coach's supporter who has implied grave consequences to open discussion of a real situation. lowery has been indicted and the discussions so far mostly reasonable opinion and reporting of information as the attempts to get this to trial (or a plea that keeps him from coaching youth) progresses.

You aren't getting my point. I don't know anything for a fact, but I do think a libel/defamation could be a possibility if he is found innocent. If. Not when. If. If he is, his life and career are in shambles because of this and who do you think he'll be coming after? The people responsible for what will then be considered libel. This is America, there have been suits for many more insane reasons. I'm not trying to intimidate, just trying to be reasonable. You don't have to be, that's fine, and certainly your right. You've alreadt made up your mind. Some of us haven't. You're certainly free to carry on as usual.

Arsenette

10-25-2003, 06:06 PM

Considering that in the USA (regardless if you like it or not) - if you get passed the pre-trial hearing and a court date is set - there IS evidence. Most do not pass that point because the judge would throw out the case before it goes to court.

what?meworry?

10-25-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by peaches
..I'm not trying to intimidate, just trying to be reasonable. You don't have to be, that's fine, and certainly your right. You've alreadt made up your mind. Some of us haven't. You're certainly free to carry on as usual.

i have not "made up my mind" but i respect the situation phskate and her son are in and admire the guts it takes to do this.

i'm glad to see you state you aren't trying to intimidate. especially since i found it interesting that you jumped in about the "false accusations" and "lawsuits" only after phskate reported getting some useful leads.

i have complete confidence in phskate's attorney's ability to sift through any false testamony.

i also support and encourage anyone with knowledge or experience relating to this case to step forward.

peaches

10-25-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
THIS. the intimidation of direct or implied lawsuits against individuals or the "boards." this isn't the first coach or coach's supporter who has implied grave consequences to open discussion of a real situation. lowery has been indicted and the discussions so far mostly reasonable opinion and reporting of information as the attempts to get this to trial (or a plea that keeps him from coaching youth) progresses.

an expression of caution is appropriate. imo, this is more than that.

You're free to express your opinion, but let me make one thing clear, the ONLY thing I'm supporting is my opinion that until he's found guilty, I'm choosing to refrain from saying he's guilty because I don't know. If you think you know, fine. You can shout it to the rooftops for all I care.

One more thing - I didn't express caution, I said I was worried about possible legal ramifications of all this being on a public MB. I'm choosing to be careful, I never said anyone else had to be, just that it is, IMO, worth considering.

I get the feeling you think I'm somehow involved in this or that I'm a Dave supporter. I'm not. I just believe in being fair and not jumping to conclusions. I was also concerned for others on this board, but pardon me, I won't be from now on.

what?meworry?

10-25-2003, 06:56 PM

please note that folks have supported phskate and her son's quest for justice. including encourging people with information to step forward.

many expressed healthy skepticism (including me) early on when there was much agnst and outrage without naming a name. once the indictment was published in the newspapers, folks offered support and encouragement to phskate and her son.

i don't see the connection that you make when you say folks are stating his is, in fact guilty. what has been stated here seems quite within bounds of opinion and reporting of facts---such as the fact that he is not to be coaching youth until this is resolved.

a grand jury doesn't indict without sufficient testamony to suggest the possibility of guilt. reality is, however, that if it is only the victim vs. the accused, the case is weaker than if there are others who step forward.

that's why it's important that other victims or close parties not feel intimidated about stepping forward. it's just that your talk of "lawsuit" if he's found innocent, bothered me with regards to the timing and content of your appearance in this discussion.

peaches

10-25-2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
please note that folks have supported phskate and her son's quest for justice. including encourging people with information to step forward.

many expressed healthy skepticism (including me) early on when there was much agnst and outrage without naming a name. once the indictment was published in the newspapers, folks offered support and encouragement to phskate and her son.

i don't see the connection that you make when you say folks are stating his is, in fact guilty. what has been stated here seems quite within bounds of opinion and reporting of facts---such as the fact that he is not to be coaching youth until this is resolved.

a grand jury doesn't indict without sufficient testamony to suggest the possibility of guilt. reality is, however, that if it is only the victim vs. the accused, the case is weaker than if there are others who step forward.

that's why it's important that other victims or close parties not feel intimidated about stepping forward. it's just that your talk of "lawsuit" if he's found innocent, bothered me with regards to the timing and content of your appearance in this discussion.

It's something that has been on my mind for some time, I just chose today to speak out because of the request made by ph.

My only real problem with this all is that someone is encouraging people to PM them with details or leads. My problem with that is specifically that if someone has something to say I think it should be to the *appropriate authorities*, not to anyone on a MB. I'm not advocating being silent, I'm advocating being smart and making a statement, should anyone need to, to a qualified person for this case, not the victim, not family/friends of the victim, but to the *authorities* or even to the attorneys handling this. Please come forward, but do it in the right way, not one that promotes hearsay.

I don't know the ins and outs of law, I simply think that it is reasonable to consider that libel is a possible problem if David Lowery is found innocent. There was plenty of evidence against OJ and he was found innocent. Plenty of evidence against Richard Jewel in the '96 O bombing, but he was innocent and his life was ruined. Once a person is accused of something so bad, it doesn't matter if they're found innocent, their rep is forever tarnished with the question of what if. And if Dave is found innocent, my concern is that he might have a case for defamation of character/libel. I'm not trying to be intimidating in any way, just saying it is worth considering. The written word has come back to bite people in the hiney more than once and we live in a very litigious society. If no one else thinks my concerns are valid, so be it. I'm not asking for anyone to be silent, but instead to be smart. Take a lead or information to the authorities and tell them what you know.

PS - I didn't just enter this discussion today, I got yelled at a week or so ago by someone who was peeved that I dared mention the name of Dave's daughter.

CrazySkateFan

10-25-2003, 07:42 PM

Heh, I got yelled at and emails nasties too just for stating that it's best to try a case in court and not on an internet board! But today, others are taking the heat.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. While I understand the passion of PHSkate since it's her family going through a court battle, I think everyone must realize that this type of conversation is negative and doesn't solve a thing. It just feeds the fire.

It's my experience, that if there is any plausibility, a Grand Jury indicts and the judge binds it for trial. That's normal. It's better to let a full jury decide than for a Grand Jury or Judge to decide. The Grand Jury does not hear the defendents entire side of the story.

I'm still waiting for the trial before rendering judgement. However, some here have trial, convicted, and sentence Mr. Lowery to death and his family along with him.

It will be interesting to see the comments posted after the trial if the board is still here!

dbny

10-25-2003, 08:54 PM

Again, well put by both Peaches and CrazySkateFan. Ducking & Running.

CrazySkateFan

10-25-2003, 08:59 PM

There you go...misinformation. I'm not ducking and running anywhere.

I just tend to deal in facts. And so far, not many have been posted. Just lots of hearsay.

WeBeEducated

10-25-2003, 09:20 PM

Don't worry too much about Lowery's reputation...it was tarnished many many years ago.
When my children first became competitive we were told by coaches, club officers, and skaters that USFSA coaches were not held to any ethical standard and to learn to go with the flow.
Keep quiet, accept all kinds of behaviour, and dont assert your role as employer with the employee(coach).
That was the suggestion.
I think that many families went along with it most of the time.
So, coaches took risks with their reputations that in the real world they might have avoided.
They did not have anything to fear, did they?

But things have changed.
There is new leadership, new rules, and better procedures in place by the USFSA that protect skaters and coaches.
There is less tolerance for inappropriate behaviour.
Malicious, idle gossip was never the substance of this case.
I am fairly sure the USFSA already recognizes this fact, regardless of what may occur in the court.

I hope anyone with relevant information will step forward .
Such a request is merely an effort to gather more personal experiences that may reflect a pattern of behaviour.

But I have to wonder...Why is it ,peaches ,that you pre-judge and doubt the honesty of young skaters who may want to share information, and you quickly assume they are "guilty" of possibly fabricating lies, yet you harp on the need to tiptoe around an "innocent" man like Lowery ?
If his story is "true" until proven otherwise, then so is theirs!

Poohsk8s2

10-25-2003, 09:23 PM

What pHskates is doing IS NOT a witch-hunt tactic, nor is it rumor generated. While innocent until proven guilty prevails, a family that is in pain seeks to put together the pieces of a puzzle that brought them to this heartache. By using PMs, pHskates can take information to knowledgeable parties with greater experience to disseminate. This information is not being asked to launch an investigation, but rather to complete a job that has already begun... and to be thorough in it's end.

I think the families of WeBeEducated and pHskates have been through enough already... they turned to this venue for support, not the IMO cruel judgement that I've read on some of the more recent posts. My only wish for all of those who have been hurt thus far, that when the wounds heal, the scars are minimal.

peaches

10-25-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by WeBeEducated

But I have to wonder...Why is it ,peaches ,that you pre-judge and doubt the honesty of young skaters who may want to share information, and you quickly assume they are "guilty" of possibly fabricating lies, yet you harp on the need to tiptoe around an "innocent" man like Lowery ?
If his story is "true" until proven otherwise, then so is theirs!

I'm not pre-judging anyone, merely upholding my belief that a person is innocent until proven guilty. I might ask why that offends you so much. ? There are, after all, two sides to a story, and I prefer to hear them both before making a call on the situation. I never said either side was guilty of anything, only that we do not know everything and that I'll keep an open mind at this point. Again, if that offends you, I must wonder why. ;) Why must we believe everything we're told? I doubt YOU do; I deserve the same privilege.

I never asked for tiptoeing, merely that people take the matter to the authorities who are in charge and not have their side filtered secondhand through username on a public MB. If they've got a legitimate complaint or information then they should have no problem cutting out the middleman/woman/person and doing just that.

what?meworry?

10-25-2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by peaches
...I never asked for tiptoeing, merely that people take the matter to the authorities who are in charge and not have their side filtered secondhand through username on a public MB. If they've got a legitimate complaint or information then they should have no problem cutting out the middleman/woman/person and doing just that.

just what do you think the purpose of calling for people who may know of other victims? of COURSE such individuals will speak to the "proper authorities!"

this call for information is for the purpose of networking to FIND such individuals. the whole skating world, ya know, doesn't read skatingforums!

why do you suggest phskates efforts be thwarted by prohibiting networking. your arguements, i must admit, make very little sense for a purported "neutral" individual only seeking fairness for both sides.

you think that the lowery defense group is not gathering anyone who might be willing to give "character" references? why shouldn't phskate's legal group be allowed to seek supporting testamony, too?

Sk_dad

10-25-2003, 11:47 PM

I appreciate your attempt to seek fairness for the accused. Yes we are all innocent until proven guilty. That is as it should be. For everyone concerned, the accused as well as the victim.
May I explain to you that the information that I sought through private messages, were just that, private. The information I rec'd was give directly the prosecuting attorney. It is up to him and the courts to establish the validity of the information. I trust they will do so. The prosecuting attorney was thrilled with the information I passed on to him.
But you see I am not concerned about there being a law suit when he is found innocent because unlike all of you, I have all the information that I need to prove him guilty. I have all the evidence I need, to know that when the jury hears the evidence, they will have no choice but to convict him.
So rest easy peaches, you have to have a character in order for it to be libeled.

peaches

10-25-2003, 11:53 PM

You're not listening to me at all. I'm not saying they have no cause for gathering supporting testimony, I'm saying it should not be filtered through Ph or anyone on this board or any board, it should go *directly* to the persons who need it.

If Ph wants to get support, let her/him (?) state who it is that people with info need to contact. There's no need for it to go through a second party to get to the destination. Why network? Why not just get the names and numbers of appropriate persons to contact out there in plain view and let people contact them directly? They'll have to talk to them anyway so cut out the middle party.

A novel concept, I know, but it might work. Kind of like the milk cartons with "If you have information on _____ call 1-800-give-nfo" or whatever. Go directly to the person that can help.

peaches

10-25-2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
you think that the lowery defense group is not gathering anyone who might be willing to give "character" references? why shouldn't phskate's legal group be allowed to seek supporting testamony, too?

I think they're smart enough to not come across on a public board as gossip mongers who insist on having information filtered through them. ;) It's not the legal group seeking testimony in this, it's the victim's family, and they should IMO, if they want info to go to their attorney, get that number out there instead of making people tell THEM so they can tell the attorney. If it's relevant to THEIR case their attorney can tell them, otherwise it's really none of their business.

phskate

10-25-2003, 11:58 PM

I do not understand your problem? What are you so insistant that I, the as the victims mother or my husband, not seek information that will help my son's case? Why do you think that it must go directly to the the prosecutor? Do you think that I will in some way taint a name and address and phone number that I pass to him?

peaches

10-26-2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by phskate
I do not understand your problem? What are you so insistant that I, the as the victims mother or my husband, not seek information that will help my son's case? Why do you think that it must go directly to the the prosecutor? Do you think that I will in some way taint a name and address and phone number that I pass to him?

I didn't accuse you of anything. I simply think that in the interest of any other victims, the details should be given to the attorneys. Get the number out there for people to call! If there is a legit complaint it shouldn't be handled secondhand, it should go straight through. If you're that concerned, you won't have a problem with someone doing that. If you do have a probelm with it, one might begin to think you just can't resist knowing the gory details of another persons horrific experience and just want the gossip.

phskate

10-26-2003, 12:07 AM

Do you have children Peaches? Do you know what it is like to watch your child in pain and not be able to stop it? This man is guilty. I know this for a FACT. It is not gossip, nor am I a gossip monger. I am seeking the truth in any way I can. Whether it be on this message board, through phone calls, through emails, through traveling to find someone who has information. I will leave no stone on unturned because it is my right and my duty to protect my child. I failed at it once, by giving Lowery a chance to hurt him. I will not fail at it a second time. So back off Peaches, until you have walked a mile in my shoes and peered out from my side of the fence you can't know or understand where I am coming from. Until you have sat up all night by your child's bedside and watched him cry until your heart was broken. I know this man is guilty. I have all the facts. I will have my day in court but until that comes I will continue to fight for my child using ANY and EVERY tool at my disposal, whether you find that acceptable or not.

phskate

10-26-2003, 12:13 AM

I didn't accuse you of anything. I simply think that in the interest of any other victims, the details should be given to the attorneys. Get the number out there for people to call! If there is a legit complaint it shouldn't be handled secondhand, it should go straight through. If you're that concerned, you won't have a problem with someone doing that. If you do have a probelm with it, one might begin to think you just can't resist knowing the gory details of another persons horrific experience and just want the gossip.

Oh my God. You are an idiot! You think I want to "filter" this to know the "gory details". Dear God why? Anyone that wants to make a report can contact Jim Butler at the Hamilton Co Prosecutors office. Be my guest.In fact Please Do! The information does not have to go THROUGH me. I don't care how the information gets there. The last piece of information, if it hadn't come to me would have been useless to the prosecutor. I had a name of a person that I needed to find. Then information helped me find him on a Sunday when I couldn't have talked to anyone in the PAs office anyway. I got his contact information and gave it to the prosecutor on Monday. I am not running a witch hunt here nor am I thriving on other people's misery. I can assure you that I am always equally relieved to speak to someone that was spared this nightmare as I am to find a victim.

peaches

10-26-2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by phskate
Do you have children Peaches? Do you know what it is like to watch your child in pain and not be able to stop it? This man is guilty. I know this for a FACT. It is not gossip, nor am I a gossip monger. I am seeking the truth in any way I can. Whether it be on this message board, through phone calls, through emails, through traveling to find someone who has information. I will leave no stone on unturned because it is my right and my duty to protect my child. I failed at it once, by giving Lowery a chance to hurt him. I will not fail at it a second time. So back off Peaches, until you have walked a mile in my shoes and peered out from my side of the fence you can't know or understand where I am coming from. Until you have sat up all night by your child's bedside and watched him cry until your heart was broken. I know this man is guilty. I have all the facts. I will have my day in court but until that comes I will continue to fight for my child using ANY and EVERY tool at my disposal, whether you find that acceptable or not.

If you want info to go to the right people to work in your favor, you will not have a problem telling people where and how to get it to those persons. If you seek truth, and you want help, you'll provide the way for people to do just that and not insist on being the middleperson. End of story.

NM, just saw your previous post. Now that's info that can be useful to posters!

dinise

10-26-2003, 12:17 AM

Peaches you keep saying you have an open mind. Great. How many times do you have to post it over and over again? I really enjoy it when there are open discussions going on here about the situation and getting updated on it. I just get the feeling you are some kind of control freak about being really careful about stuff and talking about lawsuits makes my eyes roll. I think the people are careful. I just get sick of your posts saying the same negitive stuff over and over again. You sound like a broken record.

peaches

10-26-2003, 12:20 AM

You've already decided he's guilty, and you say you have info that proves that. Great! If he's found guilty, I'll be doing the happy dance when he's behind bars, believe me.

Until then, I hope you're not offended by those of us who know neither you, nor all the details of the case, reserving judgement until such time as this all comes to light and we can make an informed opinion about it.

Denise, I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just not jumping on the "hang him now!" bandwagon because I think that's wrong.

sk8cynic

10-26-2003, 01:52 AM

One quick comment here. I can understand your pain and your desire for justice to be served. I appreciate your endeavor to have others speak out if they have evidence or an experience that pertains to this trial.

That being said, in Discovery, the prosecution is bound by law to turn over all evidence to the defense, especially any evidence that could be excupatory in nature. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am assuming you are not a lawyer? I think the determination of a person's statement as to being relevant - that either supports the Prosecutor's case or is exculpatory - should be left to someone that is trained in the legal field.

What you are doing is acting as a filter of sorts - you are the person who is making the judgement call as to whether or not what someone says should be forwarded on to the professionals handling this case. Court cases are extremely complex, and evidence gathered and analyzed by someone unqualified to make that determination is very likely to overlook and dismiss something that appears on the surface to be minute but could potentially be vital - to either party involved.

It would be far wiser and more ethical, I might add, to take yourself out of the loop with regard to discerning what is relevant and what is not. Sending someone with information or evidence directly to the Authorities is the only way justice in a Court of Law will be truly served.

CrazySkateFan

10-26-2003, 05:46 AM

sk8cynic, are you an attorney? I ask because you joined the board in June but that last post was your first.

I agree with your comments, by the way.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by peaches
You've already decided he's guilty, and you say you have info that proves that...I hope you're not offended by those of us who know neither you, nor all the details of the case, reserving judgement until such time as this all comes to light and we can make an informed opinion about it...

actually, it's only YOU who are saying everybody has already decided he's guilty. i don't actually see that in the posts. phskate, her son, and lowery know which is the truth.
if there are others out there who can add to the prosecution's case they should be found and encouraged to step forward---and they should be found any way possible.

my primary problem with your position is not that you insist on keeping an open mind, but the manner in which you presented it---somewhat of an intimidation, i thought---raising the spectre of "lawsuit" possible against anyone or any organization with an opinion or desire to support phskate and her son's efforts to seek justice, should he not be found guilty.

if i recall, when he was indicted, the rink, or club, or the lowrey's who owned the ice (i can't recall who, exactly) prohibited those who took a stand from using the ice? this is a form of intimidation. i recall other intimidation tactics used by similarly accused power coaches (i remember the big flap and angst internally at dsc)and young's threats, too.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by peaches
I think they're smart enough to not come across on a public board as gossip mongers who insist on having information filtered through them. ;) It's not the legal group seeking testimony in this, it's the victim's family, and they should IMO, if they want info to go to their attorney, get that number out there instead of making people tell THEM so they can tell the attorney. If it's relevant to THEIR case their attorney can tell them, otherwise it's really none of their business.

lowery and his family have strong connections throughout the industry, he was a founding member of psa. if anyone is willing to speak for the defense in court, they would be easy for them to find.

in this situation, the prosecuting side is at a distinct disadvantage and needs to seek out by networking in any way possible, others who may be able to add to the credibility of the young mans testimony.

did you really intend to imply phskate and her family are "gossip mongers who insist on having information filtered through them - and with a WINK???"

i think your position would seem more honorable to me without the appearance of intimidation (which i have already noted) and innuendo, such as the "wink" line above.

WeBeEducated

10-26-2003, 09:03 AM

Skating fans, skating parents, adult skaters, and a few coaches and officals are the people who regularly participate in these boards.
I dont know one group of competitive skaters who actually read these things except to see if they were mentioned after a competition in a review.
The adults online are the people who may know of a skater with relevant information, and they can inform PHSkate via a PrivateMessage of the name or circumstances that may be helpful.

I find the image that peaches implied of a salivating, malicious woman seeking juicy, lurid details for her own amusement is outrageously insulting. Considering the circumstances it is also cold and cruel. It is indeed another example of the insidous tactics being used to discredit the victim's family and supporters. Locally it is quite nasty and intense.
PHSkate is an intelligent woman with a wide range of life experiences.
She understands and has heard BOTH sides of the story. In fact, she made the BRILLIANT decision to take a witness with her when she asked Lowery for his explanation. She knows what he admitted . The courts have the videotaped witness account.
Why would anyone, peaches, suggest that she is gleefully, maliciously, perversely seeking information related to the case for the "pleasure" of hearing how another skater suffered?
What are you suggesting? That she is motivated by a love of painful gossip???? Is that the best your side can come up with????
Explain your logic please.:roll:

peaches

10-26-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
actually, it's only YOU who are saying everybody has already decided he's guilty.

My post was directed to Ph, sorry if that wasn't clear. Next time I'll make sure it's obvious to whom I was posting.

I think we're beating a dead horse here. There are some people here that are interested in fairness and making sure information gets to the correct persons, and then there are those that are too close to the case to see clearly and can't be as logical about it as someone who is not involved. The two sides disagree and will continue to disagree so there's really nothing more to say.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 09:20 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by what?meworry?
actually, it's only YOU who are saying everybody has already decided he's guilty.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by peaches
My post was directed to Ph, sorry if that wasn't clear. Next time I'll make sure it's obvious to whom I was posting.

uh, phskate and her son KNOW if he's guillty. so does lowery.
please recall that he has been indicted and the case is set for trial.

peaches

10-26-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by what?meworry?
actually, it's only YOU who are saying everybody has already decided he's guilty.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

uh, phskate and her son KNOW what lowery did. so does lowery.
please recall that he has been indicted and the case is set for trial.

Please also recall that OJ was indicted and went to trial. ;) You're wasting time and bandwidth on me at this point. Let's just agree to let the other person believe or hold what ever opinion they want and be done with it. I think that's fair and respectful of each other and will keep peace better than beating the poor dead horse.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 09:23 AM

good grief!

WeBeEducated

10-26-2003, 09:27 AM

In the Elizabeth Smart case it was NOT the authorities that broke the case. It was the improbable name provided by an 8 year old, pursued by the parents and ordinary people,ignored by the authorities, noticed by the public, that broke the case.
The authoriites that you trust so much, peaches, did not believe that the information was valuable to the case.
If the Smart family retreated passively with their information as the authorities had suggested, their daughter would still be in the hands of a psycho.
The authorities now openly acknowledge that they were inadequate, desperately ineffective, and ultimately quite wrong in their assesment of the information provided to them.
I find it odd that anyone would question a parent's motivation in seeking relevant information to the case that involves their child.
Both sides in this case are seeking information and witnesses.
With regard to PHSkate her efforts have been honest, and discreet.
If she wanted to fabricate lies she wouldnt need to ask for any assistance.
but she is seeking the truth
and we all know it is out there
and that puts some people in a very defensive frame of mind obviously.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
...Of course, even if the courts find him innocent, his career is most likely over. It would be very difficult to overcome the implications of a case like this.

i recall the first such situation of accusation of abuse. clearly, the career of that coach was not over.

WeBeEducated

10-26-2003, 09:39 AM

ps...
as for not assuming guilt until proven guilty in a court of law
well, call me crazy but I DO believe that "Emmanuel" is guilty of crimes against Elizabeth Smart!
All I have is her word against his so far, right?

But ya know, when you put all the details together, and you look at his history, and you hear Elizabeth's story, it just doesnt sound like she is fabricating all this to get money and attention!
I guess to be fair to him:P and to his "innocent" family members, I should not feel that he is guilty nor ever utter such an unfair accusation. I should give him the benefit of the doubt and look for ways to discredit Elizabeth and her family. Afterall, they have already written a book about the case and it hasnt even been tried in court yet!!!!!
But something else tells me that this child is telling the truth.
As with the Lowery case, I have all the proof I need to make an intelligent decision.
Truth is much more than just facts.

Arsenette

10-26-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
sk8cynic, are you an attorney? I ask because you joined the board in June but that last post was your first.

Before this gets out of hand.. regardless of a person's post being the first or one of many - this should not be a factor.

Mod cap on. When this thread started I (personally) was attacked for first removing, then deleting, then editing, then removing similar posts. THIS particular one is different than any other "rumor-mill" that plagued this board about a couple months ago. I still stand by what I said before - when something goes on trial - it's "open season" to discuss. This is MUCH different than someone posting "this guy is a jerk" or "stay away from him because so and so said he did something". Phskate is putting her family out in the open for various reasons and there is nothing wrong with that. She uses this board as a form of support and therapy and also a way to communicate the truth of what is going on in the justice process. By communicating what is going on in the trial/pre-trial, etc. it keeps "rumours" from going out of hand. Since it is for public record in this case (even has a case name) innocent or not - it's already public record and open for discussion. If he is found guilty or innocent - he would have had a fair trial. There is no "gag order" and if there were I'm sure phskate would stop with the posts here.

So.. if you have a position of either support or opposition to this thread - this thread is staying for the reasons I mentioned above. This thread should serve as an update on the status of the justice department proceedings and nothing more. If phskate wants to add her personal posts about the process - then so be it. There is nothing wrong going on here - except the bickering that has plagued this thread in the last 2 pages. Your voices are heard and obviously noted for all to see. Now.. let's get back to thread point here..

Arsenette

dbny

10-26-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
There you go...misinformation. I'm not ducking and running anywhere.

No, I didn't say you were, I am! Read a little more carefully, please.

iskater13

10-26-2003, 10:00 AM

I cannot believe this case is being compared to OJ.
No one here has definately said Mr. Lowery is guilty. We are all still waiting for a judge or jury to decide the outcome.
phskate has handled this beautifully. Please be more kind with your posts, we do not want this thread to end. This thread is an information source and we want to keep it open.:)

backspin

10-26-2003, 10:06 AM

ph's attorney is perfectly aware of what she's doing, much more so then we are. If he doesn't have a problem with it, and I'm sure he knows the law better than any of us, why should any one here question it? If he gets info that would in any way be a weakness to his case, he wouldn't use it. Duh!

The police & prosocuting attorneys cannot cover the whole country looking for people to interview; the internet is such a powerful tool to help in a case like this, because the Lowerys have lived so many places & skaters move around so much.

And remember, at this point that's all that they're doing: they're interviewing people as they build their case. If they felt like it, they have every right to interview every skater in America. It's up to them to decide what's relevant and what's not--all ph is doing is helping find people to interview.

By your reasoning, peaches, things like the milk carton "lost child" announcements and "America's Most Wanted" should be yanked because they also showcase people who haven't been convicted yet. And hey, we'd better take that "10 most wanted" poster down at the Post Office too.

The police depend heavily on everyday citizens to identify suspects, report things they've seen, etc. It is, in my opinion, our duty as citizens.

**Arsennette posted her note at the same time I did. Thank you for your well-written post!

CrazySkateFan

10-26-2003, 10:25 AM

RE: As with the Lowery case, I have all the proof I need to make an intelligent decision. Truth is much more than just facts.
by WEBE....

Comparing this to Elizabeth Smart is interesting on your part. This girl has apparently spoken on tv. I didn't see it.

Look at the Bryant case. Initially, he appeared to be guilty. There were reports of bruises on the girls neck. Now the detective says there were no bruises on her neck (I'll spare us from the rest of what he said.) and even the judge has said he hopes the prosecution has more evidence because he has not seen much in the case that indicated guilt. But who knows what happened in that room: Bryant and the victim. And they each have different opinions as to what happened. A jury will decide to the best of their ability.

The same holds true in this case.

You seem to have what you believe are facts in the Lowery case. I surely don't and only have details printed in the local paper. I don't know the family, like you obviously do. But then I don't know you, either.

So, I'll still wait for the jury trial. Even then, unless I got a transcript of the trial, I'll be at the mercy of the press for details.

But I do agree with you that everyone has the right to post what they want. But everyone is accountable for what they post.

Additionally, I really don't think calling someone an idiot is an appropriate behavior, by the way. But if someone wants to call Peaches that, I guess that's their right too. But Peaches, I agree with your posts and thank you for speaking out.

WeBeEducated

10-26-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by peaches
If you do have a probelm with it, one might begin to think you just can't resist knowing the gory details of another persons horrific experience and just want the gossip.

this is an example of a biased opinion of a parent simply looking for witnesses in a case her son is directly involved in.
Again, I ask you to explain why you believe that this parent is motivated by a need to hear the details of suffering!
Why do you imply that her motives are malicious?
For one so interested in being fair and balanced, your one sided sympathy rests with the Lowery camp.
If you believe his story is true because you follow the creed of the courts then you must believe in the truth of the victims story too until it is proven false.
So , Pollyanna, everyone is being honest and truthful in your world?
Until a court plays games with information and personalities, and hands down a decision , you form no opinions about an alleged victim or perpetrator?
No, it is obvious that you have a subtle :roll: bias.
You too have formed opinions, and you want others to share your views.
That is natural, but what is absurd is the pretense of "waitng to form an opinion when I hear a verdict from a court".
Courts have released many guilty men, and wrongly charged many innocent ones. Justice has prevailed sometimes, and been thwarted at other times.
I am not seeking a verdict to validate my opinion of this case. I am hoping for a verdict to protect other potential victims.

Arsenette

10-26-2003, 10:31 AM

Alright.. ALL of you said your peace.. but more bickering and I'll start straight deleting posts! This is your final warning.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 10:33 AM

ooops. simultaneous post. i'll take it to pm.

WeBeEducated

10-26-2003, 10:45 AM

ooops from me too...I didnt see Arsenette's post until now.
well written
thanks

CrazySkateFan

10-26-2003, 11:02 AM

you are BEGGING to be thrown off this board. If you have a problem with a PM - take it directly to the Administrator - don't go posting the problem in this thread!

Arsenette

CrazySkateFan

10-26-2003, 11:08 AM

I'll do exactly as you suggest. I guess if you don't agree with someone, you get your posts deleted.

what?meworry?

10-26-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
I'll do exactly as you suggest. I guess if you don't agree with someone, you get your posts deleted.

seeing as you posted my pm to you on the previous page, (which would have been ok by me, since it was just basically what may post was,) i'd say this comment is extremely manipulative and pretty much misrepresents what actually took place.

propaganda, anyone?

sort of in keeping with seems like intimidation and inuendo you and peaches were slipping in to try to discredit or thwart phskate's efforts perhaps?

tacky.

it also appears your first post on 7-25-03 was misinformation that 3 of 4 charges were dropped, which they had not been:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=118506#post118506
and you do seem to be following this rather closely (this one reported, erroneously, the the prosecution requested plea bargain:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=122969#post122969

and that was the last we heard from you until your 10-25 post here.

(edited to add) your editing to delete your two posts referenced above speaks volumes about your intent and character.
those of you who are checking this out, please note that the csf's edits to delete both of his/her posts just took place 10-26-03 at 6:01 and 6:04pm. now readers can't judge csf's motives for themselves! how cleaver of csf!

(sorry, arsenette, i couldn't stand this. i'll duck and run now. please don't close the thread. mia culpa.)

(edited to add for the posters whose comments follow: i pm'd arsenette that i wanted to do this. she hasn't responded. i've also reported the "game" to the mod.
i, too, want to see phskate continue to have the opportunity to post updates and seek help and support, but the above post and new thread by csf are truely offensive to me in their implications.)

backspin

10-26-2003, 04:26 PM

Please folks, let's stop the infighting now! This is too important for ph to get her message out there for us to get the thread locked due to our disagreeing!

Poohsk8s2

10-26-2003, 04:31 PM

ITA Backspin!
Hang in there pHskates, if nothing else comes out of this bickering, I hope there is at least the realization of what a challenge it is for the victims to have their voices heard. I, for one, admire and applaud your efforts! Don't let ANYTHING veer you off course.

phskate

10-26-2003, 06:57 PM

Thank you everyone. Please lets not argue over this anymore. I apologize for the idiot remark but what you said was truly hurtful peaches. No more arguing though guys we are getting no where. The forum is not my enemy, the man that hurt my child is. Lets all take a deep breath and not waste our time on arguing. My time is better spent is gathering information to stop the evil this man has done for too long.

Skatewind

10-30-2003, 08:45 AM

Here is an article that was written in reference to the Kobe Bryant case but gives information about the definition & misconceptions about "the presumption of innocence":

Misconceptions about presumption of innocence (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/28/findlaw.analysis.colb.date.rape/index.html)
Many non-lawyers (and even some lawyers) mistakenly hold the following view of the presumption of innocence: that unless and until a defendant has been proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of a jury, he remains actually innocent.

On this flawed (and even preposterous) understanding of the law, no one may permissibly believe that a defendant charged with a crime is guilty, if a jury has not already so concluded. In truth, every one of us is free, both factually and legally, to think whatever we wish about the guilt or innocence of a defendant, regardless of what a jury has said or will say on the matter.
After reading the last few pages of this thread, it seems like it would have been very helpful to have a clearer understanding of things like presumption of innocence, defamation, libel, etc before presenting such issues in the context of this case & this particular thread, & before anyone implied this thread or posters have defamed Lowery or ignored presumption of innocence. Such comments could have been avoided altogether with better information about some of these issues.

sonora

10-30-2003, 08:51 AM

What is the source of that quote Skatewind?

Skatewind

10-30-2003, 08:53 AM

Click on the link that says "Misconceptions about presumption of innocence" & it takes you to the news article from cnn.

sk8er1964

10-30-2003, 09:41 AM

That is a good article, Skatewind. Thanks for posting it.

Skatewind

10-30-2003, 12:24 PM

Here is another regarding defamation on the internet:

Defamation Immunity On The Internet (http://practice.findlaw.com/feature-0803.html)

Now hopefully everyone will refocus on the actual cases again - criminal, civil, or USFSA grievance proceedings, rather than claims of defamation or disregard for presumption of innocence.

SkateFan123

10-30-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Skatewind
Here is another regarding defamation on the internet:

Defamation Immunity On The Internet (http://practice.findlaw.com/feature-0803.html)

Now hopefully everyone will refocus on the actual cases again - criminal, civil, or USFSA grievance proceedings, rather than claims of defamation or disregard for presumption of innocence.

Good suggestion. Perhaps people will no long bash family memebers on either side of the case nor anyone involved with the case!

However, considering the number of visitors to this thread and the number of visitors the two closed threads regarding this issue, I'm not to sure that will happen.

One should realize that only the mother in this case has direct access to details and she only has access to the victims direct statements. Unless others posting here know the victim personally. The defendant or his family have not posted his side of the story and I doubt that his attorney would allow him or them to do so. But who knows..certainly not I? I never met anyone involved in this case.

The rest that post here have only second-hand knowledge. Try to tread lightly and be nice! Perhaps some should remember the old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

hihomom

10-30-2003, 09:31 PM

Okay, I didn't know things were going to get out of hand this far with my statement. Let me explain a few things to you. I have a broher who is in prison for the rest of his life for hurting a little boy. We as family ignored an accusation against him many years earlier, because he had a logical explanation for it. Plus, I simply couldn't imagine him hurting anyone. If I had known there had been an even earlier accusation against him, I probably would have acted on the second accusation. It wasn't until he was arrested, that I started putting 2 and 2 together. I was horrified. I couldn't help but wonder how many kids he did hurt or acted inappropriately to and could we have stopped any of it if we had believed the earlier accusations. Granted my brother had a severe drug addiction. I'm not sure if at the end he really realized what he was doing or not, I haven't spoken to him since before he was arrested. This was 4 years ago.

We come from a very respected family, and a month after my brother was arrested, my mother died, then 20 days later my father died. So in essence I lost half my family in 2 months time. My mother had Alzheimers and thank God didn't know what my brother had done. My father, however, suffered a tortured death. He would have dreams of my brother trying to kill him. I had to call the police to ensure my father that my brother was still in jail and couldn't hurt him. My sister who still lives in the town where all of us grew up, has trouble looking people in the eye, or holding her head up.

My frustration with the coaches or in particular one coach who said she knew years ago David had a problem, stems from my frustration from the fact we should have known my brother had a problem and should have stopped him. This coach acted like it made her important because she knew. She is, by the way, the same age as David, middle 70's. If she knew, or even suspected something, she should have said something. Then PH's son maybe wouldn't have gotten hurt.

I, by the way, ended up being a witness for the prosecution against my brother. I was there to testify about his drug use. It was the only way I knew to make amends for not stopping him before.

So you see, I'm not just spouting off at the mouth. I still have great guilt about what my brother did, and my lack of action. If I had any proof for PH, I would definitely give it to her. Let me tell you one thing, in Florida, they don't take this kind of thing lightly. At my brother's trial, there was no evidence, it was just his word against the childs. The child won. I believe most accusations of this kind, especially if there is more than one against any one person is proof enough.

If I ruffled some feathers, I'm sorry, but I say good luck to PH and go get him. If I could help you I would.

what?meworry?

10-30-2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Good suggestion. Perhaps people will no long bash family memebers on either side of the case nor anyone involved with the case!...
...The rest that post here have only second-hand knowledge. Try to tread lightly and be nice! Perhaps some should remember the old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

i really don't recall any actual "bashing" of family members, just naming them. some felt it was unnecessary. the closest was some comment about how could his wife not know. (i think the post above might provide some insight there.)

the link posted is to an article presenting an OPINION by a law firm.
They disagreed about a court's opinion that there was no liability on the part of the isp (internet service provider). the article presents an arguement on the side of the dissenting opinion from the circuit court.

if you want factual information about what constitutes "slander" and "libel" search for those terms. much of the literature makes reference to "knowingly" stating "false" information for the "purpose" of damaging another's reputation. in other words intentionally stating or printing information that you know to be false for the purpose of harming someone's reputation.

you'll also find a lot of wormy lawyer-talk that hedges everything.

sk8ingMom

10-31-2003, 01:11 AM

PH. I am going to have to agree with Peaches on one thing. I do think it would be wiser if you consult you attorney and see if you can post his email address on the site as a direct contact, instead of going thru you.

This way he/she can sort out the information and tell on a need to know basis. I know that would mean handing over control which is hard for you. As it is me too!

If I was the defense attorney I would have a field day with this MB. I am sure that any weasel of a lawyer can find faults with everything that has been posted here. Remember we are in the USA and even though a person is guilty or innocent we have frivolous law suits all the time. He/she could even have all your PM pulled as official conspiracy records. Who knows!

I hope all this is worked out and BTW, how is your non skater child doing? Any word on his medical problems?

Skatewind

10-31-2003, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
the link posted is to an article presenting an OPINION by a law firm. They disagreed about a court's opinion that there was no liability on the part of the isp (internet service provider). the article presents an arguement on the side of the dissenting opinion from the circuit court.
wmw, I posted the link to show that according to current law, there is no problem with having a thread like this on skatingforums. This was something that had been questioned by a previous poster along with implications that it's defamatory, etc. when that is not the case. I provided a link to some information so everyone could reference the current state of the law in this area, not because it contained a dissenting opinion. Not sure why you want to argue the point when we seem to agree, especially since misinformation was given in some previous posts about what's considered defamatory & presumption of innocence.

phskate

10-31-2003, 08:54 AM

PH. I am going to have to agree with Peaches on one thing. I do think it would be wiser if you consult you attorney and see if you can post his email address on the site as a direct contact, instead of going thru you.

sk8ingMom,
I started to PM you and not answer this on the thread. I think there has been enough debate about it. All of you are entitled to your opinions. You sk8ingmom as well as Peaches. You may share those opinions. That is the nice part of having a forum like this. But we have beat this one to death.
Your points are taken for consideration. Your arguments are heard. I except the fact that you disagree with my methods and my actions. Please except the fact that I disagree with you as well.
My points...1. I am not attempting to control anything. I don't care how the information is acquired, where it comes from, or who tells it to whom, as long as it gets there.
2. I am not filtering information, anything that I have or receive I give immediately to the prosecutor. I do not decide if this or that is important or not.
3. I am a mother fighting for my son and I will use any means of gathering information that is at my disposal.

As to my non skating son, he is continuing to be evaluated. By the cardiologists and nuerologists at the Children's Hospital here. They think that the ultrasound was incorrect and it is not carotid stenosis. He is continuing to have the black out spells and is having significant blood pressure drops with position change. They are doing some tests now to make sure this all isn't a result of the head injury he had in a wreck a couple of years ago.

sk8ingMom

10-31-2003, 12:35 PM

I am glad to hear that the first test on your non skating son was incorrect, but it seems that he still is not totally out of the woods so to speak. I will keep him close in prayer that all turns out well for all your children. I do not disagree with you about how you are obtaining any information about this Lowery case. I was simply offering a suggestion to help you. I would be doing the exact same thing. Collecting information from any and all sources. That is part of our nature as a strong mothers. I in no way find a fault with you on that. I would question parents who do not do the same. I do agree with Peaches on some things and that is the great part of living where we do. I do not expect anyone on earth to agree with me 100% of the time. That is part of us each being our own person. I am concerned for you and your children and that they all get the help they each deserve.

That this nasty mess to put to rest soon so everyone may get on with the healing process and life in general. Lowery should not be around children of any kind skating or non skating, period, end of discussion. Years of rumors must lead to some truth, otherwise the rumor would die and no one would listen. I also feel that his wife who condoned the behavior for many years is just as guilty.

I guess I feel like I am just :frus: my head against a brick wall!

what?meworry?

10-31-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Skatewind
wmw, I posted the link to show that according to current law, there is no problem with having a thread like this on skatingforums. This was something that had been questioned by a previous poster along with implications that it's defamatory, etc. when that is not the case...

not debating you at all. this was in response to skatefan123's interpretation and comment referrencing the link.
i understood that you posted it in the spirit you reiterated above.

SkateFan123

10-31-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
not debating you at all. this was in response to skatefan123's interpretation and comment referrencing the link.
i understood that you posted it in the spirit you reiterated above.

What did I write that caused you to reference me???

what?meworry?

10-31-2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Good suggestion. Perhaps people will no long bash family memebers on either side of the case nor anyone involved with the case!
...One should realize that only the mother in this case has direct access to details and she only has access to the victims direct statements. Unless others posting here know the victim personally.
...The rest that post here have only second-hand knowledge. Try to tread lightly and be nice! Perhaps some should remember the old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

SkateFan123

11-01-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?

So What?meworry?, what is wrong with what I wrote. I just can't see what you are upset about. Enlighten me please.

what?meworry?

11-01-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Good suggestion. Perhaps people will no long bash family memebers on either side of the case nor anyone involved with the case!

...only the mother in this case has direct access to details and she only has access to the victims direct statements. Unless others posting here know the victim personally...

...The rest that post here have only second-hand knowledge. Try to tread lightly and be nice! Perhaps some should remember the old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

that's actually pretty funny. there wouldn't be much going on in the way of lively debate and discussion, then, would there!

Originally posted by what?meworry?
i really don't recall any actual "bashing" of family members, just naming them. some felt it was unnecessary. the closest was some comment about how could his wife not know. (i think the post above might provide some insight there.)

...if you want factual information about what constitutes "slander" and "libel" search for those terms. much of the literature makes reference to "knowingly" stating "false" information for the "purpose" of damaging another's reputation. in other words intentionally stating or printing information that you know to be false for the purpose of harming someone's reputation.

you'll also find a lot of wormy lawyer-talk that hedges everything.

you misinterpreted skatewind's post (relative to this link: http://practice.findlaw.com/feature-0803.html ) as support for not talking about lowery. it wasn't.

most people who yelp "innocent until proven guilty" and attempt to intimidate by citing "slander" and "libel" i believe, are trying to supress honest and open discussion of circumstances of a case such as this.

skatewind did a fine job of countering the misconceptions. and i wanted to add to it. to refresh: "misconceptions on the presumption of innocence" http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/28/findlaw.analysis.colb.date.rape/index.html

SkateFan123

11-01-2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
that's actually pretty funny. there wouldn't be much going on in the way of lively debate and discussion, then, would there!

you misinterpreted skatewind's post as support for not talking about lowery. it wasn't.
most people who yelp "innocent until proven guilty" and attempt to intimidate by citing "slander" and "libel" i believe, are trying to supress honest and open discussion of circumstances of a case such as this.

skatewind did a fine job of countering the misconceptions. and i wanted to add to it.

I don't believe I ever talked about libel, slander, etc although there were others that did. If I did, call it old age cause I sure don't remember.

But I don't believe in trying things on the internet or by public opinion. So for me, I'll let the courts deal with this. They and the parties involved know much more than I do. And that is my point. I just don't have all the details. I hear what the mom says and I assume she is saying what she says because her son told it to her. I have not heard a word from the Lowery camp so I have nothing to compare it to in order to decide what I think. So I'll wait for the trial.

He may very well be guilty. Or he may not be. I just don't know.

Some on this and other threads have him, his wife, and family hung.

If he did it, he deserves the max the law allows. If his wife or family knew or if anyone knew and let it continue, they deserved penaltized too. However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just don't know enough to make a deterimination of guilt or innocence.

what?meworry?

11-01-2003, 06:18 PM

you referred to the article skatewind linked. it was about that very issue.

i will not reply to any more of your comments. enough is enough.
i'm sure you're smart enough to know what i was referring to in the first place and really didn't need me to "clarify" anything.

you don't need to ask questions for which you already know the answers just to have another excuse to express your opposing opinion.
just go ahead and post them.

SkateFan123

11-02-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
you referred to the article skatewind linked. it was about that very issue.

i will not reply to any more of your comments. enough is enough.
i'm sure you're smart enough to know what i was referring to in the first place and really didn't need me to "clarify" anything.

you don't need to ask questions for which you already know the answers just to have another excuse to express your opposing opinion.
just go ahead and post them.

Promises, promisses, promises!

sk8ingMom

11-02-2003, 10:48 AM

With all this debating and mess that has been posted lately, I think some may have forgotten the issues. I could be wrong as I am a human. PH, where is he now? I am assuming that he is in jail. But you know where that can lead me. I just cannot imagine that they would allow a person with this type of charge out on bail. :evil: I would he horrified to find out he is out on bail, so where is he?

Sk8ingMom

sk8er1964

11-02-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Promises, promisses, promises!

OK, enough is enough. I have been following this thread closely becasue I am interested in what is a very important issue not only to the family involved, but also to our sport. Each day it pops up with a new post, and I am hoping that there is some sort of news. Instead, I am stuck reading what amounts to bickering.

If you guys want to continue to bicker between yourselves, please take it to PM.

what?meworry?

11-02-2003, 12:27 PM

6-22-03: (note: this link no longer works)
Originally posted by iskater13
http://wcpo.com/news/2003/local/06/20/coach.htmlI picked this up off the golden skate site.
I believe this is rita lowery's husband, the pics look the same. I was shocked to see this.....If it is the same man, he used to teach here at DSC in Michigan before moving to florida, anyone know anything?? LOL

6-22-03:
Originally posted by iskater13
I put the small article here beauuase the page is no longer available on the news web site but is available through goldenskate.
Police Say Tri-state Coach Sexually Abused A Teenage Boy

RELATED PICTURES

Click for larger images.

David Lowery
(WCPO/WCPO.com)

Reported by: 9News
Web produced by: Stacy Puzo
Photographed by: 9News
6/20/03 11:14:49 PM

Police say a Tri-state man has been indicted on charges he sexually abused a 17-year-old he was coaching.
Investigators say David Lowery abused the boy in February.

A grand jury indicted Lowery on gross sexual imposition and sexual battery charges.

The Executive Board of the Queen City Figure Skating Club announced Friday night it has suspended Lowery from coaching.

No final action will be taken by the board until the criminal case is finished.

6-22-03: (note: this link still works as of 11-2-03)
Originally posted by DancerFan
http://wcpo.com/news/2003/local/06/20/coach.html

7-4-03:
Originally posted by phskate
It has not been set yet. Meeting on July 7th with Judge and Attorneys, some sort of pretrial thing. Then motions can be made by defense and they have to be answered. So no trial date yet.

7-7-03:
Originally posted by phskate
Today they did meet (just lawyers and judge). No news, I wish that followed along with the old saying, "No news is good news". It really doesn't though. I am afraid this will be a slow process. We will probably go a long stretch here without much happening. I suppose it will probably end up being a case of, how fast he wants to get this over with. I am sure that his attorney can delay it or speed it up...

7-19-03
Originally posted by phskate
There is a pretrial hearing on the 4th of August at 9:00am. We stand firm and committed to seeing this through...
...Not to worry, about our resolve to continue in this matter, it is strong.

7-22-03:
Originally posted by Skatewind
He was suspended by the skating club. However, skating schools are usually run through the rink or by individuals or corporations who purchase the ice & then resell it to the skaters. You have to look at how the bulk of the ice time is offered for FS at a rink. It is usually not through the club which only purchases a limited amount.

7-22-03:
Originally posted by Skatewind
The bond document states "Defendant shall have no contact with juveniles except family members. Contact with juvenile family members may take place in the presence of another adult family member."

7-25-03: (note: this is the link to current, up-to-date court documents)
Originally posted by phskate
None of the charges have been dropped. If you wish to see the current filings on this case follow this link http://www.courtclerk.org/aps/ttl/lns/cociw002.asp?B0305539

7-25-03:
quote:

Originally posted by CrazySkateFan
For the record, 3 of the 4 original charges were dropped.

Originally posted by Skatewind
Where can the record be found that is referred to in this update?

8-4-03:
Originally posted by phskate
Pretrial hearing today. A continuance was asked for. More waiting. Anyone with any information concerning possible or actual abuse by the party in question please PM me.

8-15-03:
Originally posted by Skatewind
According to the document filed on 8/4, the continuance was "at the request of counsel for both the State & Defendant" for the purpose of Plea Negotiations. It was not only requested by the prosecutor & the document specifically gives the option to choose one or the other or both.

9-24-03
QUOTE]Originally posted by phskate
Lowery fired his attorney. Hired a new one and the new attorney was given until 9/23 to review evidence, another pretrial on 9/23 - another continuance was granted to the new attorney to give him some more time to review evidence. New pretrial date is October 7th… [/QUOTE]

10-9-03:
Originally posted by phskate
Pretrial for October 7th didn't happen, Lowery and his attorney didn't show, waited for 1 1/2 hours and then the judge rescheduled for today. Haven't heard from anyone today to know what happened.

10-10-03:
Originally posted by Skatewind
The latest document on the court site shows the continuance rescheduled for Oct 9 from Oct 7. Reason given is lawyer not available 10/7.

10-14-03:
Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Trial date is set for FEB,2004

10-20-03:
Originally posted by phskate
A wonderful tip came in from someone that is going to be very helpful. Thank you again to the person that PM'd me. But I am not through looking. I want as many cards in my hand as possible. Anyone with any information no matter how small PM me. The person that PM'd me before didn't even have a name but I did and it allowed me to put a name with a location. Thanks so much to all of you that have shown support. The count down to my little war has begun and I am not going into battle empty handed. ;)

10-25-03
Originally posted by Sk_dad
...The information I rec'd was give directly the prosecuting attorney. It is up to him and the courts to establish the validity of the information. I trust they will do so. The prosecuting attorney was thrilled with the information I passed on to him….

iskater13

11-02-2003, 12:51 PM

what is the point of reliving the first few pages of this thread?????? Just noticed I am in there as well as the original starter of the thread.
so.............none of this is helping anyone involved! Lets keep the thread open to new info and FACTS..I correct myself new facts :D

what?meworry?

11-02-2003, 12:55 PM

these 18 posts are the sum total of ALL of the factual posts and ONLY the factual posts regarding this case to date.

the posts are listed in chronological order as they appeared on this thread from 6/22 thru 10/25 (the date of the most recent "real fact" posted).

a handful of people keep asking about the historic facts, apparently unwilling to go back and actually search for them. (but i must admit a 10 page thread is a bit daunting to search.)

this list is pretty short given the number of total pages on this thread. this collection of the "facts" posted serves as a recap of the facts and only the facts.

it shows the actual progress, if you read them, of the real details of this case from the day it hit the press and was posted here on 6/22.

it also includes the link to the court documents available as they are filed as the case progresses, with current new information added periodically (see the noted 7-25-03 entry).

"just the facts" posted to date are now in one place and putting them all together in chronological order should save a lot of time for people interested in reviewing the factual information of the lowery case and phskate's progress.

that was the point.

besides, i was tracking and saving the "facts" list for myself and figured i might as well post my collection when i finished it for all of the above reasons.

by the way, you are in there, iskate13, because you contributed real, factual, important information!!!;)

WeBeEducated

11-02-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by sk8ingMom
With all this debating and mess that has been posted lately, I think some may have forgotten the issues. I could be wrong as I am a human. PH, where is he now? I am assuming that he is in jail. But you know where that can lead me. I just cannot imagine that they would allow a person with this type of charge out on bail. :evil: I would he horrified to find out he is out on bail, so where is he?

Sk8ingMom
Lowery is at home in Cincinnati, Ohio.
At the time of the indictment Lowery turned himself in to police.
He was not required to post bail. None.:roll:

He continues to sell skating related figurines, artwork, and antiques on his skating gallery website, theskatinggallery.com

When the ice contract at Sports Plus was given to another coach(and control of who may or may not use it) Rita abruptly gathered up her students and left. She is coaching at an older rink nearby. The original rink has warmly welcomed back everyone that the Lowery's had "banned".

phskate

11-03-2003, 01:10 AM

these 18 posts are the sum total of ALL of the factual posts and ONLY the factual posts regarding this case to date.

Thank you what?meworry? for posting the recap, that was helpful.

As far as updates at my house...
I have two children that loved flying across the ice, that now skate little, or refuse to at all. My son is very torn. He wants to skate, he says, but somehow the pleasure he used to experience, isn't there anymore. My daughter want even talk about it or try to skate. My son tries to skate for a few days in a row and then becomes depressed again. It feels like some sort of terrible limbo we are suspended in. Closure, can not come soon enough. Feburary seems a long way away.

sk8ingMom

11-03-2003, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Lowery is at home in Cincinnati, Ohio.
At the time of the indictment Lowery turned himself in to police.
He was not required to post bail. None.:roll:

He continues to sell skating related figurines, artwork, and antiques on his skating gallery website, theskatinggallery.com

When the ice contract at Sports Plus was given to another coach(and control of who may or may not use it) Rita abruptly gathered up her students and left. She is coaching at an older rink nearby. The original rink has warmly welcomed back everyone that the Lowery's had "banned".

Webe..

I am glad that they are gone but sad that is is free to roam the streets. The link you posted got me to go and "look" Saw his picture and wanted to puke. Sorry, but I just loath looking at a person even accused of this type of crime against children.......... I can understand why Ph can barley speak the name of this man.

I turly hope the time goes by fast for you PH and family. So you all may start the healing process soon.

dbny

11-03-2003, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by sk8ingMom
Sorry, but I just loath looking at a person even accused of this type of crime against children..........

Anyone can be accused, and many innocent people have been. In no way am I voicing an opinion in this particular case, but I would definitely never want you to be on a jury judging me or any of my loved ones.

SkateFan123

11-03-2003, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by dbny
Anyone can be accused, and many innocent people have been. In no way am I voicing an opinion in this particular case, but I would definitely never want you to be on a jury judging me or any of my loved ones.

Well said! I agree with you. I have no first hand facts in this case supporting either side. I am sure both sides feel they are correct. I'll just let the courts sort it all out.

February is a long way, PH. I do hope the time passes quickly for you. It always seems the courts move very slowly. Hopefully, you and your family will find a little time to enjoy the holiday season.

And I hope time passes quickly..

phskate

11-08-2003, 03:52 PM

The holiday season is upon us and my family will attempt to put this situation on the back burner, and find some joy, during this wonderful time of year. Hope you and yours will find the same joy in the season.
As Thanksgiving approaches, and I dwell on what I have to be thankful for, this board comes to mind. Your information, support, and at times even your arguements, have kept me going. Positive and negative opinions have been found here, and even some, that caused complications in my life, more than what I already had, but the good has been far greater than the bad.
Recently something happened that called into question whether getting on this board had been a wise idea. After only brief reflection I affirmed that any negative that had come from it was very small compared to the greater good.
I do not in anyway shape or form regret Webe's original post that started the previous thread or my posting on it. The information and support that I have obtained from it have been worth its weight in gold. I am also thankful for the start of the second thread, and the wonderful help that I have obtained here.
So as Thanksgiving approaches this month, I will give thanks to my supporters here and this board for being in existance. This time next year I hope I will be giving thanks for a much better situation, justice, and a brighter future.

candace

11-09-2003, 02:15 PM

I just want to wish you and your family a Happy and Joyfull Thanksgiving. May all those bad times be put behind and away through the holidays. May brighter times be on the way for you and your family. Happy Holiday and good wish to you.

iskater13

11-17-2003, 05:41 AM

Best wishes to all here on the board and also to all the skaters.
Happy new year!

sk8ingMom

11-17-2003, 08:57 AM

Strange to see that several post have been deleted? This post goes from 12 pages to 6? Wow someone is editing posts off these boards!

Skatewind

11-17-2003, 09:13 AM

What posts have been deleted? When I pull it up, it still shows the same number of pages. Maybe it has to do with the parameters of the computer you are using (??)

sk8ingMom

11-17-2003, 09:19 AM

On your computer you show 12 pages? I have the parameters set from the beginning? Seams awful strange.

sonora

11-17-2003, 09:23 AM

Mine only shows 10 pages

Skatewind

11-17-2003, 09:23 AM

No, on my computer it says 10 pages, which is the same as it was last week. It might have to do with changes to parameters on the computer being used or the number of posts selected to show on a page from the user cp, or something like that.

Phuket

11-23-2003, 07:17 PM

Any news? I know the trial is in February...anything else going on?

what?meworry?

12-06-2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Phuket
Any news? I know the trial is in February...anything else going on?

this is the hardest time---waiting time.

i hope all is well and the holiday times are extremely busy with many opportunities for laughter. any excuse for laughter. it changes brain chemistry and helps you feel better.

what?meworry?

12-22-2003, 10:41 PM

well, we're both blind or it's back.

patience. all will be resolved.

meanwhile, have peaceful holidays surrounded by friends and family.

sk8er1964

12-22-2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
well, we're both blind or it's back.

patience. all will be resolved.

meanwhile, have peaceful holidays surrounded by friends and family.

:)

Happy holidays to all. I'm wishing peaceful holidays to phskate's family. When all is said and done, family is most important. Blessings on yours in 2004.

phskate

12-22-2003, 11:46 PM

Thanks to everyone for the holiday wishes. I continue to try hard to make the holiday bright but we still have bad days mixed in with the good. Today was a very depressed day for my son and I was feeling pretty down. It was nice to open my email and find your replies on the thread and your support and best wishes. Thank you for that. I pray that when this is finally over, the trial, and everything, that my son will find some way to begin again. I hope he will find a way past the anger and the depression. He has said he will not skate again, and his sister, whether in support of him, or due to her sharing his depression, will not skate either. I had two beautiful children that would fly across the ice with such grace and beauty, and someone ruined that for them, took the pleasure and the magic of it all away. I have so many Christmas ornaments with skaters and skates and they glisten on my tree tonight, not from the lights, but from my tears. I ask for your prayers and thank you so very much for your support. I could never have imagined how unending the pain of all of this could be but it helps to know that there are people out there who have us in their thoughts and care. Merry Christmas to all.