Michelle?

[kgl2]

Wasn't today the day Michelle had to skate in fornt of judges to determine if she was well enough to go to the Olympics? Does anyone know anything?

[Artemis]

Tomorrow for the decision:

"U.S. Figure Skating will name a five-person monitoring committee that will have sole discretion and make a final determination on Kwan's status no later than Jan. 27. The petition states she will withdraw from the team if the monitoring committee determines she is not ready to compete."

[AnnM]

There was a piece abouth this during the morning news (I'm in the LA area). There is supposed to be a press conference at approximately 3:30 pm PST.

[kgl2]

Thanks! Please post anything you hear; NYC news won't carry it I'm sure.

[Debbie S]

Just announced on ESPN: Michelle was cleared and is going to the Olys!!!

Now I can eat dinner - lol!

[dcden]

Latest news (spoiler):
http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/5089919/detail.html?qs=pt=espn

[Mel On Ice]

yay! and I feel your pain on the pesky loop.

Congrats to Michelle!

[iceskater2]

The best news I have heard all day..

[NoVa Sk8r]

And more:

Dressed in a black sweatshirt and warm-up pants, with her hair pulled back into a ponytail, Kwan smiled and gave someone a small salute as she approached the ice Friday morning. Once she stepped onto the ice at 11:02 a.m. PST, though, she was all business.

The monitors stood behind the boards where the hockey benches would be, and several U.S. Figure Skating and U.S. Olympic Committee officials sat on the other side of the rink, along with two pool reporters.

Kwan began with some leisurely skating around the ice, then warmed up with some jumps. She did a couple of doubles, then a triple flip, triple salchow and triple lutz. Eight minutes after the session began, she started her long program, Rachmaninoff's "Prelude in C Sharp Minor."

She skipped the first element, probably a double axel, but looked solid the rest of the way. She didn't have her usual theatrical flair, appearing to focus more on technique and execution rather than performance.

She did three triples -- one as part of a triple lutz-double toe loop-double toe loop jump combination that earned applause from coach Rafael Arutunian. After the spirals that have become her trademark, she finished the program with a double lutz.

She showed little reaction when she finished and looked serious as the monitors discussed their notes. Only four minutes later, she started her short program. She fell on a double axel, but immediately landed a triple lutz-double toe combination. The landing of her triple flip was shaky, but the rest was solid.

She wore a big smile and a look of relief when she finished the second program. While the committee huddled and examined their notes, Kwan stayed on the ice and did a perfect double axel followed soon after by another one.

After a few mintues, she skated over to the monitors to analyze her short program, looking at how she could enhance the difficulty or execution of her elements. By 11:36 a.m., she was gathering up her jackets and pants and leaving the ice.

After a 45-minute break, she returned so she and the monitors could evaluate the elements in her long program. The focus was entirely on her footwork, spins and spirals, which have specific difficulty levels under figure skating's new judging system.

They began with her straight-line footwork, which had great speed and intricate steps. When she finished, Cyr talked about using the entire surface and Kwan skated over to examine some of her tracings.

After a few minutes of consultation, she went to work on her spirals. As she skated away from the committee, she passed the stereo and reached out with her left hand to flip it on without breaking speed.

Finally, she went through her spins, spending most of the time working at center ice on a flying camel with a front inside edge. Cyr gave her several suggestions, and they could be heard laughing at times.

After a few more minutes of consultation, she tried the spin for a fourth time, changing the angle of her body and her arm position. Cyr clapped and said, "That's it."

[dbny]

Her performance, especially on the jumps, does not sound stellar to me. I think they wanted to give this to her. I hope she continues to recover and is able to train full speed ahead for Turin. It would be a shame for us all (not to mention Emily Hughes), and embarrassing for Kwan to really flub it there.

[blades]

8-)

like there was any question of the outcome of the "monitoring session"...

follow the money...michelle will bring in more viewers than sasah alone...she could be on crutches and the committee would still leave her on the olympic team...

[crayonskater]

Ack. What are they thinking? 4 triples isn't competitive!

[Schmeck]

Even though she still has a few weeks more of training, it sounds pretty shaky to me as well. At least her other elements, besides the jumps, seem to be getting up to par.

So, I wonder if Kwan is planning on heading over to Torino for the opening ceremonies, or skipping them to continue training at home? (I didn't read the first article, so I'm not sure if it said anything about it - OK, I'll go look, LOL!)

[likes2skate]

Ack. What are they thinking? 4 triples isn't competitive!

Michelle has only had about what, 3 weeks to train after not jumping for 1 month? She landed 4 triples and I think it sad she doubled a lutz?

Emily landed 4 triples at nationals also...

[NoVa Sk8r]

Even though she still has a few weeks more of training, it sounds pretty shaky to me as well. At least her other elements, besides the jumps, seem to be getting up to par.

So, I wonder if Kwan is planning on heading over to Torino for the opening ceremonies, or skipping them to continue training at home? (I didn't read the first article, so I'm not sure if it said anything about it - OK, I'll go look, LOL!)During the video press conference, she was asked whether she would go to the opening ceremonies. At first, she diplomatically (IMO) tried to say that she has much other things to worry about and lots of decisions to make. But then I thought she said that yes, she would go to the opening ceremonies.

One journalist asked Kwan--since she has been so familiar and successful with the 6.0 system--how she would have rated her programs.
She jokingly said "6.0--yeeahh!" then said that it was hard for her to be a judge and put numbers on her own programs (and the 6.0 system is for ordinals/placements anyway. The journalist should have asked how she thought she would have fared at Nats under CoP :twisted: ).

But the best snarky question was something like this:
"Michelle have you spoken to Emily Hughes since you found out that you are going to Turino instead of her?"
Priceless.

[nbct]

8-)

like there was any question of the outcome of the "monitoring session"...

follow the money...michelle will bring in more viewers than sasah alone...she could be on crutches and the committee would still leave her on the olympic team...


Couldn't have said it better myself! In fact I thought the exact same thing: she could have gone out there with crutches and a walker and still have been deemed "fit."

No double axel and 4 triples. WOW! That surely will have her frolicking in "fields of gold."

[crayonskater]

Michelle has only had about what, 3 weeks to train after not jumping for 1 month? She landed 4 triples and I think it sad she doubled a lutz?

Emily landed 4 triples at nationals also...


Yes, but that wasn't the point of my comment. No one was saying that Emily had a 'realistic shot at gold.' Decide Michelle is healthy enough if that's the case, decide that she'll probably heal enough in time to land six or seven triples, fine. But let's not kid ourselves and call 4 triples and no double axel a program that has a chance to win a gold. I'm reacting to the hyperbole, not the decision.

[Schmeck]

Agreed, if this is the best that she is going to skate, then a medal of any color is farfetched. There are two weeks until the opening ceremony, then 2 more weeks (approx) until the ladies event. I would expect some improvement in four weeks, if she's been able to accomplish this much in the short time frame she's had so far.

[Mel On Ice]

ESPN grilled her on the show 4 Quarters and she was asked, again, if she planned on talking to Emily. Michelle said she knew the family well, was friends with Sarah and yes, she was planning on talking to Emily.

[dietcoke]

ESPN grilled her on the show 4 Quarters and she was asked, again, if she planned on talking to Emily. Michelle said she knew the family well, was friends with Sarah and yes, she was planning on talking to Emily.

I was watching 4 Quarters as Kwan was on. During the part where she took questions over the phone, Christine Brennan asked Michelle to compare (percentage wise) how much she had improved since her performance at the Marshall's cheesefest.

For instance, if at Marshall's she was performing at 30%, at what percentage does she feel she is now performing at...? I wanted to know what Michelle thought about that, but she never really answered the question. She talked about just improving everyday, what she still needed to work on, ect, but she didn't answer the question. I thought it was a very interesting question, and I wish she had given it a straight answer...:?? (I'm sure nobody expects her to be at 100, 90, or even 80% yet, but it would have been nice to know what Michelle's opinion was on that. :?: )

When asked what she thought about the whole 'bye' process, she said that she was glad that she didn't have to make the decision.

Twice she brought up the fact that Nancy Kerigan had called her before the test skate to wish her luck. She also said that she knows Sarah, Emily and the whole Hughes family, and that she had planned on calling Emily, etc.

Then, ESPN cut away from the press conference and went to something else...darn!! :frus:

[Schmeck]

The announcement was all over the news yesterday, and it really cracked me up when one station showed clips of Kwan skating, then there was a short one of Cohen doing a layback, and then back to Kwan. No mention of Cohen in the piece, just a 2 second clip of her skating - umm, did someone think it was Kwan when they put the montage together? :lol:

[likes2skate]

Yes, but that wasn't the point of my comment. No one was saying that Emily had a 'realistic shot at gold.' Decide Michelle is healthy enough if that's the case, decide that she'll probably heal enough in time to land six or seven triples, fine. But let's not kid ourselves and call 4 triples and no double axel a program that has a chance to win a gold. I'm reacting to the hyperbole, not the decision.

Ok I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that completing 4 triples in the LP was not competitive compared to Emily Hughes.

Sorry:D

[loveskating]

Oh no, another Kwan Quest.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Here's a link to the press conference:
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/torino2006/figure_skating/news?slug=ap-fig-kwan-olympics&prov=ap&type=lgns

And yet MORE articles on the Kween:

"Column: Kudos on Michelle Kwan Decision (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060128/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_fig_nancy_armour_tr2_1;_ylt=AkoahVBA.u4Dr5Wj4j SIMd5pep0B;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)"

"Kwan 'definitely qualified' for Torino medal (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/torino/figureskating/2006-01-25-kwan-workout_x.htm?csp=N009)"

"Besides adding a triple-triple combination for the Olympics, Kwan said she hopes to increase the levels of difficulty on her spins, spirals and footwork. Horen said the levels she skated Friday were threes and fours under the new scoring system. Four is the highest level."

OK, enough about the triple-triples! When is the last time she has landed this type of combo (I reckon it was at 2002 Worlds in the qualifying round)?! I would love to see her do one again, but let's be realistic.
And they are not crucial to win the Olympics.
Slutskaya does not have one in her programs, and neither does Cohen.

[Debbie S]

ESPN grilled her on the show 4 Quarters and she was asked, again, if she planned on talking to Emily. Michelle said she knew the family well, was friends with Sarah and yes, she was planning on talking to Emily.As a former journalist, I get so irritated with these types of questions. Sometimes, reporters will try anything to create a "story". Why does Michelle need to call Emily? What's she supposed to say? Emily and Michelle aren't the ones who made the decision, the committee did. And (as we've established) Michelle's petition and subsequent medical bye were completely within the rules. Emily was named to the World team, as the rules indicated. Did Nancy Kerrigan or Tonya Harding call Michelle when she was "bumped" from the '94 Oly team?

Don't get me wrong, I think Michelle calling Emily is a nice gesture and I'm sure Emily will appreciate it. But I don't see why reporters need to make that an issue, as it really has nothing to do with Michelle's Oly prep or her performance at the monitoring session, which was what the press conference was supposed to be about.

[loveskating]

As a former journalist, I get so irritated with these types of questions. Sometimes, reporters will try anything to create a "story". Why does Michelle need to call Emily? What's she supposed to say? Emily and Michelle aren't the ones who made the decision, the committee did. And (as we've established) Michelle's petition and subsequent medical bye were completely within the rules. Emily was named to the World team, as the rules indicated. Did Nancy Kerrigan or Tonya Harding call Michelle when she was "bumped" from the '94 Oly team?

Don't get me wrong, I think Michelle calling Emily is a nice gesture and I'm sure Emily will appreciate it. But I don't see why reporters need to make that an issue, as it really has nothing to do with Michelle's Oly prep or her performance at the monitoring session, which was what the press conference was supposed to be about.

Well, MK better thank her lucky stars Emily Hughes did not make it an issue --because you can bet your life Tara Lipinski would have made it an issue, LOL!

In fact, any sensible person would wonder why Emily did not make a peep about it!

You know, this sort of general attitude of "You are a pig if you question or criticize ANYTHING Michelle Kwan does" is very old.

[EastonSkater]

Just announced on ESPN: Michelle was cleared and is going to the Olys!!!

Now I can eat dinner - lol!

Excellent to hear. I doubt that she would have failed anyway. As if she'd go and get tested if she wasn't ready hehe

[sugar4]

Well, MK better thank her lucky stars Emily Hughes did not make it an issue --because you can bet your life Tara Lipinski would have made it an issue, LOL!

In fact, any sensible person would wonder why Emily did not make a peep about it!

Why in the world should Emily Hughes make an issue of Kwan receiving a medical bye? Emily was never named nor was she on the US Olympic team. She won the US National bronze and that alone does not equal a spot on the Olympic team. She was not bumped off of the team.

I'm quite sensible and I don't wonder why Emily Hughes didn't "make a peep".

[crayonskater]

Probably because even though I think Emily has a right to feel snubbed, whining about it would be the surest way to cement her reputation with advertisers and skating judges as 'that whiner', which wouldn't bode well for her future successes. She's playing it very diplomatic and very smart.

[stardust skies]

From the sound of it, Emily's nationals performance would have clearly beaten Michelle's at the "monitoring" session. At what point does one performance almost a year ago not mean as much as more recent results?

When it isn't about forming a team to send to a competition that only happens every four years. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Michelle necessarily should get to go. 4 triples a few weeks before the Olympics is really not enough of a good shape to bump the current Bronze National medalist off the team, IMO- even if it's great rehab for such a short period of time. However, the Olympic Commitee's responsibility is sending the best possible Olympic team to the Olympics, and only the National Gold medalist is guaranteed a spot. For the others, they look at ALL of their past results, not just one year's worth, and when you compare Michelle's International track record to Emily's, clearly Michelle is the more seasoned competitor and better chance of bringing home a medal.

I don't think either girls would bring home a medal, I really don't. A healthy Kwan- maybe, although I really didn't even think she would. But a recently rehabbed Kwan whose nemesis has ALWAYS been the Olympics and who flubbed on the 2 axel (a jump she usually never messes up) and only managed to land 4 triples on top of not being able to present her programs to any judges this season or expose herself to the COP? No, I don't think she has a chance in hell. But I do think she has a better chance than Emily, if for her amount of experience and good track record under pressure overall, and that in a way it's reason enough to send her. In a way. I'm really 50/50 on this issue, I see both sides.

I really think those judges gifted her very generously with all those levels 4 in her test skate, however. I could be wrong, I wasn't there- but I am willing to bet you anything that the Olympic judges aren't going to see all 3's and 4's (if any, really...) and that they'll be the fair ones. But then again all National judges are known to inflate scores for their sweethearts. If the judges had reported that Michelle wasn't COP ready and that all of her elements were 2's, they couldn't have warranted sending her. But it begs to question why the article reports that the judges showed her how to improve her levels if they really did find everything to be level 4's already. Are they creating a level 5 especially for her? :?:

Guess all we can do is wait and see what happens. But while I don't really agree with the fairness of the choice (because as I said, someone who was recently injured and only landed four triples in her test skate, and who hasn't had experience with COP isn't really a good enough bet to warrant not offering the reigning U.S. Bronze medalist a spot esp. when it sounds like they actually had similar skates), but I can still see *why* they made it.

[loveskating]

Why in the world should Emily Hughes make an issue of Kwan receiving a medical bye? Emily was never named nor was she on the US Olympic team. She won the US National bronze and that alone does not equal a spot on the Olympic team. She was not bumped off of the team.

I'm quite sensible and I don't wonder why Emily Hughes didn't "make a peep".

This kind of disingenuous "spin" is what makes me dispise many of Kwan's fans.

Again, USUALLY, the bronze medalist (and silver medalist) at Nationals goes to Worlds and the Olympics -- or do you deny that? If Kwan had not asked for her little bye, Emily would have gone to the Olympics -- or do you just like to try to fry people's brains with this nonsense?

It was entirely up to Kwan whether to ask for a bye and thus remove Emily, and she did, without blinking an eye.

[Samskate]

Emily not making a peep could be summed up in one word, class. The same as when Michelle wasn't named to the Oly team in '94 and didn't make a peep. It's called class.:)

[blades]

8-)

and taking an undeserving spot on the olympic team...is called??? crass comes to mind...

[crayonskater]

Well, except that Kwan a) didn't know that the committee would send her and b) didn't know that it would be Emily who would lose out, because the petition was completed before Nationals. Describing it as 'asking for a bye and booting poor little Emily' really betrays a lack of understanding of the process.

It's a minor point but one that does go a long way in explaining how Michelle's decision to seek a bye isn't an attack on Emily personally, or at least no more an attack than Kerrigan's decision to seek a bye, or Elderidge, or Bobek.

It would have been extraordinarily noble for Michelle to bow out, but nobility is superogatory, not morally required. Especially not for a bronze medallist who landed no more triples than she.

Plus, I suspect had she bowed out, she'd be a diva for taking attention away from Sasha by retiring, or condescendingly giving her spot away. ('How DARE Michelle act as though it was her spot to give away? BANANAS!')

[crayonskater]

But it begs to question why the article reports that the judges showed her how to improve her levels if they really did find everything to be level 4's already. Are they creating a level 5 especially for her?

They did say 3s and 4s. But I think there's a disconnect between the test session and the way it was reported.

[loveskating]

Well, except that Kwan a) didn't know that the committee would send her and b) didn't know that it would be Emily who would lose out, because the petition was completed before Nationals. Describing it as 'asking for a bye and booting poor little Emily' really betrays a lack of understanding of the process.)

No, Kwan would have taken the spot from Kimmie or Bebe or any US skater who might have won the bronze at US Nationals, I quite agree...Ms. Kwan certainly has a way of getting whatever she wants.

It would have been extraordinarily noble for Michelle to bow out, but nobility is superogatory, not morally required. ...

I agree, not at all morally required, but your statement reveals -- perhaps you did not intend this -- how Kwan could have done herself some considerable good by bowing out (particularly since she is already rich as sin and set for life.)

Plus, I suspect had she bowed out, she'd be a diva for taking attention away from Sasha by retiring, or condescendingly giving her spot away. ('How DARE Michelle act as though it was her spot to give away? BANANAS!')

Only in Kwanworld, where somehow Michelle Kwan remains forever the victim fighting the glorious fight against all the evil Anti-Kwans!!! Believe me, when Kwan goes the "anti-Kwans" will also go because its a PARADIGM, and a pretty sick one that.

Of course, the Kwanworld inhabitants will just hang their venomous hats on some other poor skater but it will take some time to build up the hysteria they've managed to create around Michelle Kwan.

[crayonskater]

I did intend it; I've never held that the only correct course of action would be for Michelle to request a bye. (I've even said that before.)

But I don't think the result was pre-determined. Suppose the American field was so strong that the third place finisher landed two triple-triples and yet was still in third place because the other two were even better. (Like Japan's field atm.) I don't think if the third place finisher had landed seven triples, that the committee would have picked Michelle with only four. Really unfair. Too hard to justify publicly. External criticism hurts future revenues, too. (Plus, this is a bit of a red herring; it's happened in other sports that the moneyed, advertising darling favorite has failed to make the team or medal. They just shift focus to the new rising star.)

But the field isn't that strong this year. Emily Hughes did not have a great year (mostly because she was ill), and her Nationals performance wasn't knockdown great. Like stardust skies said, there's good arguments for both sides, and when it's a 50-50 call.. well, it's close.

And yeah, I think that if Kwan had bowed out, there would still be some criticizing her for doing so because that way it showed she was a diva/afraid to compete/some such. (Witness the GP series, for example. Is she being generous by bowing out and giving the newbies a chance, or is she a diva for skipping it? If she had skated, would she have been hogging the limelight?) This doesn't mean I live in Kwanworld, but it's just reality that when you're a high profile athlete, there is always going to be someone to criticize.

A smart athlete is going to do what's best for herself anyway. If people are going to criticize you anyway, may as well try to be on the Olympic team when they do.

[sk8er1964]

But I don't think the result was pre-determined. Suppose the American field was so strong that the third place finisher landed two triple-triples and yet was still in third place because the other two were even better. (Like Japan's field atm.) I don't think if the third place finisher had landed seven triples, that the committee would have picked Michelle with only four. Really unfair. Too hard to justify publicly. External criticism hurts future revenues, too. (Plus, this is a bit of a red herring; it's happened in other sports that the moneyed, advertising darling favorite has failed to make the team or medal. They just shift focus to the new rising star.)

But the field isn't that strong this year. Emily Hughes did not have a great year (mostly because she was ill), and her Nationals performance wasn't knockdown great. Like stardust skies said, there's good arguments for both sides, and when it's a 50-50 call.. well, it's close.

While I think you make some very good points, personally I believe that if Kwan had come out and done all singles, she still would have been cleared for that third spot. Because she's the Kween, and she brings in lots of television revenues, which in turn feeds the bank account of the USFS. Money talks, and the USFS listened.

[Tapper]

I'm not getting into this one... too much animosity bubblin' for me! This is nearly as toxic as talking US politics. :lol:

All I'll say is that I'm glad to hear MK is going to the Olympics! I'm looking forward to seeing her skate.

[loveskating]

Inventing a non-existent situation will not obviate the actual issues contained in this little skating soap opera.

(1) as to the USFSA's judgment, many of us don't care who is more likely to medal;
(2) others don't think Kwan has a prayer to medal any more than Emily does;
(3) others think Kwan has more of a chance to medal than Emily, so that justifies everything.
(4) others think that if you question or criticize any aspect of what Kwan does, you are "anti-Kwan".

But more importantly, for me, its all about who Michelle Kwan has shown herself to be quite aside from any rules or laws or any of that. For me, Kwan could have done herself a lot of good if she had bowed out and showed up at this Olympics to cheer for the considerable talent of the skaters she herself inspired and created a space for! To me, Kwan is and has been since SLC a least, the older sister who refuses to leave home, get a job or go to college and instead tries to hang out with her younger sisters, which I find really obnoxious and out of place.

What are the consequences of that? Nada. Entirely personal. I'll still cheer if I'm at a rink and she takes the ice. I do not hate her, I am just very, very disappointed in her and she is not the person I once thought she was.

[Schmeck]

8-)

and taking an undeserving spot on the olympic team...is called??? crass comes to mind...

Please explain why requesting a legitimate medical bye, as written into USFSA bylaws, and followed through completely and correctly, is considered undeserving and crass?

Do you think an uninjured Kwan (one that had been able to keep practicing after the first injury healed) would have placed below Hughes? Of course, we could play the 'Might Have' game until the cows come home, couldn't we? :lol:

[dietcoke]

But more importantly, for me, its all about who Michelle Kwan has shown herself to be quite aside from any rules or laws or any of that. For me, Kwan could have done herself a lot of good if she had bowed out and showed up at this Olympics to cheer for the considerable talent of the skaters she herself inspired and created a space for! To me, Kwan is and has been since SLC a least, the older sister who refuses to leave home, get a job or go to college and instead tries to hang out with her younger sisters, which I find really obnoxious and out of place.

What are the consequences of that? Nada. Entirely personal. I'll still cheer if I'm at a rink and she takes the ice. I do not hate her, I am just very, very disappointed in her and she is not the person I once thought she was.


BRAVO, Loveskating!! ITA :D

[EastonSkater]

8-)
and taking an undeserving spot on the olympic team...is called??? crass comes to mind...

That's irrelevant because nobody took an undeserving spot on the olympic team.

[EastonSkater]

While I think you make some very good points, personally I believe that if Kwan had come out and done all singles, she still would have been cleared for that third spot. Because she's the Kween, and she brings in lots of television revenues, which in turn feeds the bank account of the USFS. Money talks, and the USFS listened.

Michelle deserved the spot on the olympic team, and she's on it. Everything else is irrelevant.

[icedancer2]

They did say 3s and 4s. But I think there's a disconnect between the test session and the way it was reported.

Yeah, I wondered about this-- the judges wouldn't really be calling the levels anyway -- this would be the technical specialist I believe (and they did have one on the panel...). I'd be curious to know if they were REALLY those higher levels, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

:giveup:

[sk8er1964]

Michelle deserved the spot on the olympic team, and she's on it. Everything else is irrelevant.

How does she "deserve" it? Because of her reputation? Because several years ago she was a force to be reckoned with in international figure skating? Maybe it's because of all of her international medals in the past two years :halo: . Why? Give me a valid reason why, at this point in time - 2006 - her recent performances have proven that she deserves to go to the Olympics.

The only reason I can see is that either the USFS figures that they owe her something, or that they are looking to their monetary bottom line. Maybe it's both. However, IMO, it's hard to argue that she "deserves" it for any other reason.

Shame on US Figure Skating for taking away what might be the only chance for the US bronze medalist to go to the Olympics in favor of a skater who hasn't won an international medal since 2004, who has already been to the Olympics twice, and who is not physically at the top of her game. It's two weeks to the Olys, and she's going with a shaky double axel and four triples?

JMHO. If that makes me a "Kwan-hater" so be it. I have nothing against her at all, but I do dislike injustice, and this is, IMO, injustice.

[crayonskater]

While I think you make some very good points, personally I believe that if Kwan had come out and done all singles, she still would have been cleared for that third spot. Because she's the Kween, and she brings in lots of television revenues, which in turn feeds the bank account of the USFS. Money talks, and the USFS listened.

Again, I'm not sure how much of a factor that was. It's plausible... but... (It's the sort of claim one needs to see evidence for.) Skaters with advertising contracts have failed to make the World & Olympic team before (I remember an ad for Nicole Bobek and Campbell's Soup); athletes have failed to make the teams (Dan & Dave, anyone?); athletes with lots of media spectacle have failed to do well (Kim Zmeskal in 1992 while Shannon Miller won the all-around silver)

The USFSA has known since September that Michelle's been ailing, and it's hard to believe they had no backup plan at all.

(To the claim that 'nonexistent' scenarios have nothing to do with it, they do go towards bias or lack of it.)

Now that Sasha's won the National championship, it wouldn't be too hard to convince advertisers to shift their focus. She's pretty, and no less articulate than anyone else. If you noticed, there were a few Coke spots during Nationals that had the Michelle segment cut out of the 'here's a lot of athletes.' Maybe there's a reason they have phased in Sasha as the new face of figure skating -- and before you tell me all that it's because of a Kwan conspiracy that includes the Mob, breathe -- but the claim that only money was the factor seems a little farfetched.

Publicity is certainly part of it, but think of the melodrama and publicity as aging Michelle gracefully bows out, handing over everything to little Emily and Kimmie and Sasha! Money gold.

[daisies]

How does she "deserve" it?
I don't think it's about who "deserves" it more. Neither deserves it more; neither is owed anything.

In fact, you could make the argument that Emily doesn't deserve crap after the way she skated at Nationals and that she was pretty much 3rd by default because she sucked less than everyone else (although I might have had Katy Taylor ahead of her). If she had skated the roof off the place, that would be one thing, but she didn't. She didn't make her case, and she left the door wide open.

I think it's more about the fact that the International Committee is charged with selecting the strongest team for the Olympics, the one that has a better chance of medaling. Emily has not proven yet she can medal at a senior international event. Michelle has -- consistently. No, not under the new system -- but she was darn close. Her 4th place at Worlds was the result of her qualifying round. Remember, she actually placed 3rd in both the short and the long.

There's no guarantee she will medal at the Olympics, but on paper Michelle is the better risk. And before you say what's on paper doesn't matter, remember that the rules state that the selection criteria include the 2005 World Championships. So, under the USFS's own bye procedure, what's on paper does matter.

I'm also reading disparaging remarks about Michelle not being able to land her double axel. The girl hadn't even been practicing them due to her groin injury and she threw it in at the last minute in her short. If you hadn't done a double axel in over a month, had just skated your long 10 minutes ago and threw the double axel in your short at the spur of the moment, you might fall too. But she landed them just fine after that. Cut her some slack.

I've also read on this and other boards that some people think Emily's Nationals LP would have beat Michelle's test LP. How can you compare? One's an all-out competition, and one's a test. Apples and oranges. Michelle's test skate wasn't meant to be an all-out program anyway; it was meant to be a show of fitness, of health.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but it would be great if everyone could base those opinions on actual facts and not speculation.

:: steps off soapbox ::

[Tapper]

I don't think it's about who "deserves" it more. Neither deserves it more; neither is owed anything....

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but it would be great if everyone could base those opinions on actual facts and not speculation.

:: steps off soapbox ::

I really liked your post. And you bring up an interesting point, IMHO. There's lots of speculation going on... lots of hypotheticals, and a lot of unwillingness to simply accept the facts. Emily came in 3rd. Michelle asked for a bye and got it. Pretty much that's all there is to it. What's to discuss? :??

[stardust skies]

(particularly since she is already rich as sin and set for life.)



You don't skate to make money. NOBODY skates *to* make money. The money's nice, but in the end you're probably only getting back what you spent all those formative years. If you compare how much Michelle must've spent on training and competitions and equipment and travel and everything, really, allllll those years before she got funding, and then minus that from her fortune, I doubt there would be as much left as you think- not to mention that this is her JOB, this IS how she makes her money and what she's trained to do- do you blame CEOs for being successful? Or lawyers? Inventors? Musicians, actors, younger athletes even? Anyone who makes good money but isn't out looking to cure cancer? Until she trains to do something else, this is her career, and it's great that she's successful enough in it to make heaps of money. That's...generally the point of trying to start a career- to excel and make money. If you've made a ton by the time you're 25, great...but do you really think it'd be so honorable to just quit and for her to sit on her ### counting her money all day for the rest of her life? That'd really show that she was only in it for the money and now that she's got enough, she has no use for skating. But she LOVES competing. She wants to keep working because she loves what she does- and I bet that sure, the money doesn't hurt one bit, but can you really blame her? If it didn't go to her it'd go to some other skater anyways, it's not like we'd be saving all this award money and giving it to starving children all over the world if Evil Michelle Kwan didn't hoard it all.

Skating is expensive. People skate for many, many different reasons- to win, because they love it, maybe even some try to get attention through it (though there certainly are easier and cheaper ways to do that), but I don't think anyone spends all those years training in the off chance they'll become millionaires. And considering how much it costs to skate, physically and financially, as well as emotionally, I really can't say these athletes don't deserve every penny they make, 'cause they do.

Kwan grew up with relatively little extra money. She knows the meaning of her money. You're talking about her like she's Paris Hilton and she should move over for the next socialite. I've always said, and I'll say again...I think it's ridiculous to ask someone who has devoted their entire life to something to just move over to give someone else a shot. If someone surpasses you, fine, that's the way of life- just like it happened at last year's Worlds. But if Michelle is still a top contender, she has no reason to bow out, whether she's earned enough money for life in your (not so humble) opinion or not. This is true for everyone. I heard Plushenko's planning to go for another four years. Let him do it- he'll kick everyone's ### everytime. And the day he doesn't, then he doesn't. Natural way of things. It's really stupid to quit when you are ahead if you feel you've got more wins in you. You quit when you feel like you don't. If these people were the kinds of people who were ready to step aside to let others win instead of them, they never would've been champions in the first place. Champions don't step aside, they fight til the end. And while my feelings on Michelle getting sent to the team are expressed in mixed emotions above...you cannot in anyway actually blame or fault her for fighting. That's ridiculous. Why not blame her for choosing a sport she's good at instead of one she would've sucked at and never accomplished anything in, while you're at it? Because that's basically what this is saying...that she's too good. Made too much money, got too many medals, and now she should just leave and give some to the rest of the skating population. So, she's just too good. Or too loved by the judges. Either way, she had to work for that. Even if you feel the results are skewed (and often, they are), she still had to work to get the judges on her side, and she did. Good for her. The judges can (and do) have more than one favorite at a time. They'll inflate as many people's marks as they want to, and they do. Perhaps Michelle didn't deserve to get sent to the Olympics. But really, who did? The ladies team is really weak right now- do you honestly thinkg Emily Hughes had a better chance at an Olympic medal than Kwan? That's unlikely. Even if Kwan skates like crap....as everyone keeps saying..the judges overinflate her scores, so she's got the better shot. The U.S.A. wants medals, and it sent the most likely candidate out of two not-so-great prospects. That's all, IMO.

PS: I didn't mean to pick so much on what you said, Loveskating...but it inspired this rant so I just ran with it. No hard feelings I hope. I enjoy your posts.

[stardust skies]

I don't think if the third place finisher had landed seven triples, that the committee would have picked Michelle with only four. Really unfair. Too hard to justify publicly.


Not really. Just say to the public that Michelle landed 7 triples, too. It was a closed event, no one was in the audience. I think there was one lone reporter so -pay him off to keep quiet and you're golden, wouldn't be the first time backdoor deals would've happened in sports with reporters. Michelle was going to this Olympics no matter what, I truly believe that. She could've been still in a cast and they would've probably sent her. Funny how both girls (Emily and Michelle) landed four triples. I wonder if that's truly how many jumps Michelle landed in her program. I also do now wonder if that number would've fluctuated to reflect whoever won. Would she have magically landed a fifth if the third place finisher did? I really think so.

Them conceding that she fell once doing the double axel was probably to make it sound like she was not in TOO top a shape (even though they said that she did two perfect ones afterward, OF COURSE), cause that would've been shady. I personally don't even understand how you could go from not even being able to do ANY jumps for Nationals, to being "ready to turn in a gold medal performance at the OLYS" literally two weeks later. Never made sense to me, never will. I don't really care, but I personally think this entire thing was a set up and that Michelle was perfectly capable of skating at Nationals. Either she was afraid she wouldn't make top three because she isn't in top shape (which doesn't mean she was ever re-injured and off the ice for weeks), or she wanted to save herself FOR the Olys (less likely answer since she probably wanted that 10th title). Or an even more sinister (and I doubt it's true but really who knows?) scenario would be that this is all fake (even the Marshalls performance) and designed to psyche all the other competitors into thinking Kwan's not even a factor and all the while she's training 3/3's and whatnot, and is ready to take everyone by suprise in a desperate bid to finally win this thing. Sounds silly, but you never know, haha.

I personally believe she got injured this summer and that she lessened training for a while and that she did struggle quite a bit, as demonstrated at Marshalls. But anything after that...I doubt it. You don't go from extreme pain and no on-ice training for a month to an Oly-worthy performance in two weeks, no matter how good you are. Makes no sense to me. And she was able to skate her programs back to back, they said? Wow. That's SOME stamina for someone who hasn't been training hard (or at all). :giveup: I don't like conspiracy theories, but this whole story just makes no sense.

[stardust skies]

To me, Kwan is and has been since SLC a least, the older sister who refuses to leave home, get a job or go to college and instead tries to hang out with her younger sisters, which I find really obnoxious and out of place.


Oh...so...Irina Slutskaia should probably retire right before the OLYS too right, because I mean, she's ill...she skipped her own Nationals too, and she's a year older than Kwan and yet has been on the scene for just as long. So she should quit and make room for others, even though she'll probably win Gold in Torino? Makes a lot of sense.

What about....Elena Sokolova (who just won her country's Nationals despite her (in your eyes I'm guessing..) incredibly advanced old age? Liashenko? Maria Butyrskaia who was still winning international medals at 29? Should they all move/have moved over for the new generation and given up all of their amazing experiences and successes just because you find them pathetic? That is so sad. This is their love- their passion, their reason to live. This is their career. Why in the world should they quit if they are still physically able to keep going and want to? How is it for a mere onlooker to decide their entire lives? I don't get how anyone could be so self-righteous as to honestly *feel* what you said above. I can't begin to comprehend how anyone could honestly pass judgement on how someone else is making their living considering that they are such beautiful women with such class and taste and are doing nothing wrong to the world. It's baffling to me.

Cohen's getting old too. I mean she's 21 now (the same age Kwan was at SLC, coincidentally)...shouldn't she be out getting drunk at fraternities every weekend instead of winning Nationals over the apparently amazing teenagers that should get all the opportunities she's stolen from them these past couple of years? Those teens who, sure, have no artistry which is typical of the younger set, but who needs good musical interpretation and artistry when you are still young enough to be a virtual jumping bean- artistry comes with maturity and by that time if you don't quit you're so pathetic that apparently no one can enjoy it anymore, so why bother having music in skating at all? But back to that old hag Cohen...how dare she even still make the personal choice to still live in the same house as her mother (albeit she owns it..)? How pathetic must she be to love her mom and want to spend some time with her. How pathetic must she be to love skating past age 12. She should just quit and start working at the Coffee Bean and move into a shitty studio apartment with ten roommates and experience the "good" life she's obviously meant to have instead of what she's doing. Man, what a medal-hog that granny is. :roll:

[loveskating]

Oh...so...Irina Slutskaia should probably retire right before the OLYS too right, because I mean, she's ill...she skipped her own Nationals too, and she's a year older than Kwan and yet has been on the scene for just as long. So she should quit and make room for others, even though she'll probably win Gold in Torino? Makes a lot of sense.


The difference between Kwan and Slutskaya is that Irina does not act like a younger sister:roll: -- unlike Kwan, Irina has been upping her tech, and certainly when she won Worlds she matched her highest tech level on the jumps from her past, i.e., 3 lutz/3 loop and 3 sal/3 loop. Irina, unlike Kwan, is pushing herself, trying to win honestly, and she is still contributing to the the SKATING aspect of the sport.:frus:

Kwan is stuck in 1998:x , and she is not even as good as she was then -- for instance, she actually removed difficulty from her Rach SP for SLC. She has managed some 3/2/2 combos and a 3 lutz/2 loop which is respectable, but nothing close to what Irina has done.

As for presentation, Sasha is equal to or quite a lot better than Kwan, and Arakawa is as well and they are both technically quite superior all down the line.

[iceskater2]

Shame on US Figure Skating for taking away what might be the only chance for the US bronze medalist to go to the Olympics in favor of a skater who hasn't won an international medal since 2004

If this is Emily's only chance then 2 conditions must exist 1 she does not have the talent to reach or sustain olympic level competition or 2 she does not have the drive.

I think it is time for all sides to let this go, Michelle is going to the Olympics and the majority of the US is thrilled. In less than a month it will be over and fate will take its course. Win or lose I believe this will be Kwan's last amateur competition and the road will clear for all those upcoming skaters to try and fill her shoes. Lets see which one of them CAN.

[loveskating]

If this is Emily's only chance then 2 conditions must exist 1 she does not have the talent to reach or sustain olympic level competition or 2 she does not have the drive.

I think it is time for all sides to let this go, Michelle is going to the Olympics and the majority of the US is thrilled. In less than a month it will be over and fate will take its course. Win or lose I believe this will be Kwan's last amateur competition and the road will clear for all those upcoming skaters to try and fill her shoes. Lets see which one of them CAN.

Where did you come up with the idea that the majority of the US is thrilled about MK going to Torino over Emily Hughes? I have not spoken to one person who is thrilled, to the contrary, and that surprised me. And the one person who thought it was ok said that neither of them could medal anyway.

Name recognition is NOT love. Its not even like.

[iceskater2]

Where did you come up with the idea that the majority of the US is thrilled about MK going to Torino over Emily Hughes? I have not spoken to one person who is thrilled, to the contrary, and that surprised me. And the one person who thought it was ok said that neither of them could medal anyway.

.

Now you have ME.

Perhaps I need to remind you of Marshalls. In case you forgot the public voted for a bad performance from Kwan over an excellent performance by Cohen.

[Isk8NYC]

It's a done deal, barring unforeseen circumstances. Given the few spots available to other countries, such as Japan and Australia, we're being nit-picky about the third slot.

Now, let's get behind ALL of our skaters. May they all skate their best and place well against the competition. Let the best skaters win.

[sakk]

ITA about getting behind our skaters - all of them. I never doubted that MK would have a spot on the team. I enjoy Emily immensely. I think she's charming. None of us are in control of how the US picks their teams. ONLY the national champ is guaranteed the spot, so Emily never had one. One of the girls at nationals was quoted as saying that, assuming that Sasha won the title, there really was only one other spot available (I think that was Kimmie that said it??). The girls KNEW, and I think most of US knew that MK would get the spot.

Now... who here is a skater and can explain how the groin pull affects the skater, and how long of a recovery there is?? I've seen some posts talking about MK being injured, but seriously... it's not like she broke a leg, right? If someone has the background to fill me in on how the injury affects things, and the recovery time needed, that'd be nice:)

Putting aside her skate at Marshall's... In all this time of rest, hopefully MK's "people" (advisers, coach, etc.) have thoroughly studied the COP to ensure that her programs are competitive. If they have not done so, it's going to reflect badly on the decision of putting her on the team. I don't believe that this is Emily's only shot at making the team. She's an up-and-coming skater. She needs to take the time to create two full programs. She seems like she has a great attitude, and I hope to see her in the years to come.

[AnnM]

Now... who here is a skater and can explain how the groin pull affects the skater, and how long of a recovery there is?? I've seen some posts talking about MK being injured, but seriously... it's not like she broke a leg, right? If someone has the background to fill me in on how the injury affects things, and the recovery time needed, that'd be nice:)

I'm not an elite skater by any means, but I do skate regularly. The groin muscle is crucial for pulling in tightly on jumps & spins. Also, you need to have flexibility in your groin muscle to do spirals, certain spin positions, footwork, etc. So a pull can effect one's all-around skating. The length of recovery depends on the degree of the pull. IIRC, seriously pulled groin muscles effectively ended the 'eligible' careers of some male skaters like Alexei Urmanov.

As an aside, I had a slightly pulled groin muscle last week. It hurt like hell to do even basic things like getting up from a kneeling position or getting into a sitting position. I couldn't even rotate my hips to switch sides while sleeping without pain. It took nearly four days to get back to normal. Going skating was out of the question. After that experience, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss any skater who says that they can't train, compete, etc. due to a groin injury.

[icedancer2]

Or an even more sinister (and I doubt it's true but really who knows?) scenario would be that this is all fake (even the Marshalls performance) and designed to psyche all the other competitors into thinking Kwan's not even a factor and all the while she's training 3/3's and whatnot, and is ready to take everyone by suprise in a desperate bid to finally win this thing. Sounds silly, but you never know, haha.

I personally believe she got injured this summer and that she lessened training for a while and that she did struggle quite a bit, as demonstrated at Marshalls. But anything after that...I doubt it. You don't go from extreme pain and no on-ice training for a month to an Oly-worthy performance in two weeks, no matter how good you are. Makes no sense to me. And she was able to skate her programs back to back, they said? Wow. That's SOME stamina for someone who hasn't been training hard (or at all). :giveup: I don't like conspiracy theories, but this whole story just makes no sense.

Wow, you have taken the conspiracy theory even further than most! I love it! My theory is that she will withdraw before the SP at Olys, just in time for Emily to fly in to Turin and skate in her place. USFS seems to think that they need the drama (or is it the ISU, the IOC?) to make these games more interesting, create more flash, more $$, etc.

The thing that bothers me is that I know one of the judges that was on her test committee. I think this person is an honest person and a good judge. I hope that I am not proven wrong.

But I have to say I am tired of being disappointed by Michelle (and Sasha, too, BTW) -- but I guess that's all part of the sport.:giveup:

[crayonskater]

Muscles in the groin are also used to stop the rotation on landing. Football players pull it all the time, and they're not even rotating; but they'll still be sidelined.

Rehab on the injury depends on the severity and the person, of course, but it's a tough one to rush (stresses other areas, etc.) It's stupid, because like the hip flexor, it's not a terribly big muscle.

My 'conspiracy theory': Michelle is injured, but if this were not an Olympic year, she would have skated to attempt a 10th National championship. I suspect she could have muscled through it, but what's the point of winning Nationals if doing so robs you of the reason you haven't turned pro yet?

(Which is why the money thing is a red herring, too. If Michelle were only after money, good lord. A professional MK? Two triples per performance, sold-out houses, her own specials and tours? Plus spokeswoman opportunities? And she's hanging around the amateur ranks for the cash... ? Glory, maybe.)

[loveskating]

Now you have ME.

Perhaps I need to remind you of Marshalls. In case you forgot the public voted for a bad performance from Kwan over an excellent performance by Cohen.

I don't think that vote was scientific -- everyone knows that Kwan's fans are highly organized. Don't forget, I was once Kwaniac, getting all those e-mails.

....A professional MK? Two triples per performance, sold-out houses, her own specials and tours? Plus spokeswoman opportunities? And she's hanging around the amateur ranks for the cash... ? Glory, maybe.)".

Dream on! Only in Kwanworld -- even after the exposure S&P and B&S got at SLC, that did not remotely happen, not by a mile!!!

You have to burn soul to reach the American people, like Katia G. did that night in her tribute to Sergei -- you have to have something like Daria comforting her mom, something milliions of Americans have seen in tragedies of their own where a mom is abandoned by death or choice, and the mother is comforted by the child, when it should never be like that. And you have to overcome something like that with that kind of courage, and it has to be REAL, not fake! .

NBC will have to dream up something far more monstrous than SLC for MK to have a chance in that territory unless something highly unforeseen occurs. Perhaps Kwan will just have to wait until life deals her some real blows, until she stops getting every little thing she wants, to be beloved?

Monkeys, fake, Beatles, real. Orange juice, real; Tang, fake.

[crayonskater]

You don't think Michelle's fans are interested in seeing her skate on tour? Perhaps that's true, but the disappointment of many not seeing her at Nationals (and selling their tickets) seems to suggest otherwise. She's a lot more exposed and visible than the two pairs teams you mentioned. (Plus, she's American, which helps in an American audience.)

I expect she's reasonably marketable, even without a sob story or an Olympic gold. (You may need a sob story as an international pairs skater, but America loves its female singles skaters.) I think you can deny this, but you seem to be ignoring a fair amount of fans.

[Tapper]

I can't speak for millions of Americans, but Michelle Kwan is the only name currently that would guarantee my purchasing a ticket to an ice show.

[daisies]

I really liked your post.
Thank you, Tapper. :)

[stardust skies]

Michelle loves competing like I love going to the dentist. Sure, I feel great once I'm done but I still don't do it more than twice a year.

While I thought this post was really funny and made me laugh out loud...logistically speaking...you don't go to the dentist more than twice a year cause you probably don't need to. Kind of like Kwan re: competing. ;)

[Bothcoasts]

You have to burn soul to reach the American people, like Katia G. did that night in her tribute to Sergei -- you have to have something like Daria comforting her mom, something milliions of Americans have seen in tragedies of their own where a mom is abandoned by death or choice, and the mother is comforted by the child, when it should never be like that.

Interesting point. I've heard quite a few references to skating in the past few weeks on mass media, and nothing referred to Katia and Sergei. (Don't get me wrong--I absolutely adored them as a pair and still very much enjoy Katia's skating.) Truthfully, I doubt that the majority of my non-skating friends would remember their names, although everybody still vividly remembers the Harding-Kerrigan incident and knows Michelle Kwan's name.

Lately, every reference I have heard to skating in the mass media has referred to either Tonya Harding and the '94 Olympics or "Skating With Celebrities." It seems that a big whack or a lot of falls tend to generate more excitement within the non-skating public than more heart-stirring occurrences.

Actually, one of the DJs on the radio this morning made a point of saying that, because NBC will be broadcasting the Olympics using HDTV this year, she's relieved that Tonya Harding won't be visible in HDTV! :o

[jazzpants]

Now... who here is a skater and can explain how the groin pull affects the skater, and how long of a recovery there is??Ummm... that would depend on how severe her pull was. I got mine around the time MK pulled hers too and also from a fall on a jump too. (But no, mine was from a stupid LOOP jump, not a double axel!) Mine was a very mild pull, but it sidelined me from jump. Spinning luckily for me was not a factor since I spin on the opposite leg that I had the groin pull on. Moves was just fine, except for spirals. Then again, spirals always sucked for me anyway... :giveup:

I recovered from mine in a few days. It was luckily a very mild one!!! :bow:

Debate all you want, but the decision is made!!! You either choose to support our US Olympic Figure Skating Team in whole or none at all!!! If youc an't get behind MK, Sasha and Emily together as a team or you don't!!! But leave MK alone and let her do her thing!!! Nothing you can do to get a "young'um" on the team now!!! (Geez! 25 is old? What does that make me!?!?!? Ancient!?!?! Maybe I should listen to all those cracky skating moms out there who puts pressure on their little girl to skate better but can't slap on their skates to find out just how hard those jumps really are!!! Maybe I should listen to what they say when they tell me to hang up my skates, have babies before I turn 40 and let my daughter skate for me!!! :roll: (Yeah, right! And miss out on all the fun??? NO, THANK YOU!!! :twisted: )

[sk8er1964]

Now... who here is a skater and can explain how the groin pull affects the skater, and how long of a recovery there is?? I've seen some posts talking about MK being injured, but seriously... it's not like she broke a leg, right? If someone has the background to fill me in on how the injury affects things, and the recovery time needed, that'd be nice:)

When I had that injury (hip flexor), I was able to skate, but in pain and not up to par. I pushed through for about a month or so, while going to PT, in order to skate at my first AN's. Then I was prohibited from jumping and spinning by my sports med doc for two months. It took another month or so of very light jujmping before I felt 100% again.

[loveskating]

Interesting point. I've heard quite a few references to skating in the past few weeks on mass media, and nothing referred to Katia and Sergei. (Don't get me wrong--I absolutely adored them as a pair and still very much enjoy Katia's skating.) Truthfully, I doubt that the majority of my non-skating friends would remember their names, although everybody still vividly remembers the Harding-Kerrigan incident and knows Michelle Kwan's name.

Lately, every reference I have heard to skating in the mass media has referred to either Tonya Harding and the '94 Olympics or "Skating With Celebrities." It seems that a big whack or a lot of falls tend to generate more excitement within the non-skating public than more heart-stirring occurrences.

Actually, one of the DJs on the radio this morning made a point of saying that, because NBC will be broadcasting the Olympics using HDTV this year, she's relieved that Tonya Harding won't be visible in HDTV! :o

First, I was not talking about name recognition -- O.J. Simpson has name recognition. I was talking about both name recognition and love or affection.

Katia was famous for her skating in the memorial for Sergei Grinkov after he died, which was on CBS. Almost everyone I have ever met and discussed skating with on any level saw it or heard of it. Then Katia had a best selling book, "My Sergei". She had her own perfume brand, which puts her up there with movie stars.

NBC has decided to go Kwanworld -- so sure they are referencing Harding and Kerrigan, just like Brennand did in her original story last year when she advocated Kwan should be the star of the Olympics.

[Bothcoasts]

Katia was famous for her skating in the memorial for Sergei Grinkov after he died, which was on CBS. Almost everyone I have ever met and discussed skating with on any level saw it or heard of it. Then Katia had a best selling book, "My Sergei". She had her own perfume brand, which puts her up there with movie stars.


I agree that anyone who knows skating is familiar with the Sergei Grinkov memorial from the winter of 1996. I was fortunate enough to attend the memorial, and it was quite a tear-jerker. There's no question that that the celebration of his life won't be forgotten by the skating community.

To return to the main point of this forum, irrespective of whether Michelle's injuries were legitimate or not, I wish her and all other Olympic skaters the best of luck in Torino in the coming weeks. I look forward to seeing some great skating on television!

[PrayingForIrina]

Irina, unlike Kwan, is pushing herself, trying to win honestly, and she is still contributing to the the SKATING aspect of the sport.:frus:

And Michelle would have to had she not been injured.....Truth be told, you don't know WHAT Michelle has been doing in practice leading up to this season.....only Rafael knows that, as well as Tatiana Tarasova. So unless you're psychic, your post is just "heresay"

[Tapper]

And Michelle would have to had she not been injured.....Truth be told, you don't know WHAT Michelle has been doing in practice leading up to this season.....only Rafael knows that, as well as Tatiana Tarasova. So unless you're psychic, your post is just "heresay"

Thank you!

[crayonskater]

This is probably futile... but you can't keep defining "Kwanworld" outward and outward to include the networks and keep claiming that Kwan is only a star in the minds of her fans, and LOL! at everyone.

(If you're not saying that, then your argument that Kwan has no money to gain by turning pro makes little sense.)

Look, Katia's tragic story, biography, and subsequent perfume label were possible and she is beloved because a) she's pretty b) her husband died tragically and c) she was an Olympic gold medallist.

Michelle's story is interesting and she is beloved because a) she's pretty b) she's been a long time American/World champion and c) people who are not huge fans know her as the face of skating.

Both of these are pretty marketable and beloved for different reasons. Just look at Marshall's. If you think Kwan hasn't reached a sizable proportion of Americans, then where did all the votes come from? I see no reason why people wouldn't pay to see Michelle skate in tours. But maybe the tours are part of Kwanworld, just like the networks, any fans, and well, pretty much anyone outside of you, loveskating.

As long as the dollars in Kwanworld are transferable to American currency, I'm pretty sure that she's not hanging around amateur ranks because otherwise she'll be working at Koffee Kreations.

[loveskating]

What a hoot you Kwaniacs are! You NEVER engage with what anyone is actually saying (is it possible you don't even understand?), you always re-define and then spout and spout! I was just trying to explain a social phenomenon to you, and you all took it as Kwan attacking, ROFL! Its amazing!

Do you imagine for one second that folks out here are "loving" Kwan the way you MKFers do? Eating chicken for her? Bashing eveyrone off the Net who does not adore her? Are you NUTS?

BTW, Kwanworld is a place where what is really important, more important than anything else, is Michelle Kwan.

That, needless to say, is not the real world.

But I'm out of here. Talking to a brick wall is no fun.

[Schmeck]

How I love the "if you don't agree with what I'm saying you're not understanding it, and you're a blind follower" posts... :roll:

[EastonSkater]

loveskating....go aheeead. Make mah deaaay.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Oh, gosh, I just must say it: Loveskating, your posts keep getting nuttier and nuttier each day. Keep up the good work! And thanks for keeping the peanut gallery amused!

And as for your Kwaniac remarks (maybe true) ... you have Sasha Cohen paper dolls on your site (http://www.skatingart.net/sasha/saspapdolls/saspapdolls.html). Oh brother!

[crayonskater]

loveskating, I'm not bashing you, and I am enjoying my conversations with you, a shining example of a brick wall if ever there was one. I can't wait to see how you can misinterpret a simple statement.

I don't eat chicken for Michelle Kwan. I prefer sushi, generally.

All I'm saying is that the 'MK ONLY WANT MONEY' meme seems misdirected: either Michelle Kwan is sooo marketable that the USFSA put her in the Olympics just for money, or she's sooo unmarketable that she won't have a pro career so the USFSA is sending to the Olympics because she's so marketable, which she's only doing because she's unmarketable.

But, hey let's add some more contradictions. MK has no fans that would pay to see her, yet everyone who disagrees with you is a Kwaniac, which I understand normally means an 'extreme' Kwan fan. By your own count, Kwaniacs are the only ones that go to see her. EVERY TIME YOU POST YOU INCREASE MICHELLE'S BANK ACCOUNT. :P

I applaud you for your mastery over cognitive dissonance.

(And the totally stupid thing? I'm pulling for Irina this Olympics. I just want Michelle to do well enough so Emily doesn't have to wonder 'what if?')

[likes2skate]

What a hoot you Kwaniacs are! You NEVER engage with what anyone is actually saying (is it possible you don't even understand?), you always re-define and then spout and spout! I was just trying to explain a social phenomenon to you, and you all took it as Kwan attacking, ROFL! Its amazing!

Do you imagine for one second that folks out here are "loving" Kwan the way you MKFers do? Eating chicken for her? Bashing eveyrone off the Net who does not adore her? Are you NUTS?

BTW, Kwanworld is a place where what is really important, more important than anything else, is Michelle Kwan.

That, needless to say, is not the real world.

But I'm out of here. Talking to a brick wall is no fun.

uh...didn't you compared NBC to Hitler for showing Sasha Cohen falling on an Olympic promo? :roll:

[daisies]

Talking to a brick wall is no fun.
Welcome to our world!

[Tapper]

Oh, gosh, I just must say it: Loveskating, your posts keep getting nuttier and nuttier each day. Keep up the good work! And thanks for keeping the peanut gallery amused!

And as for your Kwaniac remarks (maybe true) ... you have Sasha Cohen paper dolls on your site (http://www.skatingart.net/sasha/saspapdolls/saspapdolls.html). Oh brother!

Is that really a link to Loveskating's web site?

[stardust skies]

What a hoot you Kwaniacs are! You NEVER engage with what anyone is actually saying (is it possible you don't even understand?), you always re-define and then spout and spout! I was just trying to explain a social phenomenon to you, and you all took it as Kwan attacking, ROFL! Its amazing!

Do you imagine for one second that folks out here are "loving" Kwan the way you MKFers do? Eating chicken for her? Bashing eveyrone off the Net who does not adore her? Are you NUTS?

BTW, Kwanworld is a place where what is really important, more important than anything else, is Michelle Kwan.

That, needless to say, is not the real world.

But I'm out of here. Talking to a brick wall is no fun.

a) I think you and your posts are ridiculous and biased and I actually really don't like Kwan. I'm just objective as a human being.

b) You keep saying you're "out of here", but yet you keep coming back. :?:

[mikawendy]

you have Sasha Cohen paper dolls on your site (http://www.skatingart.net/sasha/saspapdolls/saspapdolls.html). Oh brother!

Oh my goodness! ROTFLMAO!

[PrayingForIrina]

You NEVER engage with what anyone is actually saying
you always re-define and then spout and spout!

Do you imagine for one second that folks out here are "loving" Kwan the way you MKFers do?

I know you are not including me in that little rant of yours......I don't expect ANY human being to love Kwan just because I do...you love yours and I'll love mine, Kapeesh? :giveup:

[jazzpants]

you have Sasha Cohen paper dolls on your site (http://www.skatingart.net/sasha/saspapdolls/saspapdolls.html). Oh brother! http://www.cosgan.de/images/kao/frech/d030.gif

loveskating... I saw your website. If there's anyone that's obsessed with a skater, it's you!!! :twisted: :lol:

[PrayingForIrina]

But I'm out of here. Talking to a brick wall is no fun.

Then you should really stop talking to yourself......and you should see somebody about that, cause it isn't healthy :roll:

[Moto Guzzi]

Now we can find out if loveskating is really "out of here." ;) This news should bring on a new barrage of ludicrous comments about all the chicken-eating Kwaniacs who don't even understand, redefine, and then spout and spout! :P

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/torino/figureskating/2006-02-07-notebook_x.htm

"Skating's nominee to carry the U.S. flag in Friday's opening ceremonies is the last — but most visible — athlete to make its team, third-time Olympian Michelle Kwan. Baldwin confirmed the unanimous choice Tuesday. He and other U.S. captains meet today to select the flag-bearer."

[Nicki]

Wow! what an honor for Michelle. Can't wait for the Olympics to finally begin.

[PrayingForIrina]

Now we can find out if loveskating is really "out of here." ;) This news should bring on a new barrage of ludicrous comments about all the chicken-eating Kwaniacs who don't even understand, redefine, and then spout and spout! :P

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/torino/figureskating/2006-02-07-notebook_x.htm

"Skating's nominee to carry the U.S. flag in Friday's opening ceremonies is the last — but most visible — athlete to make its team, third-time Olympian Michelle Kwan. Baldwin confirmed the unanimous choice Tuesday. He and other U.S. captains meet today to select the flag-bearer."

Here are some thoughts/funnies regarding Michelle Kwan. It was originally intended to be a "Fact Sheet" about JACK BAUER from 24, but some things in
it fit Michelle :lol:

Michelle Kwan once won a game of rock paper scissors using niether rock, paper nor scissors.

Michelle Kwan uses #1 pencils on standardized tests.... Michelle Kwan doesn't associate with anything that is #2.

Michelle Kwan's calender goes from March 31st to April 2nd, no one fools Michelle Kwan

Superman wears Michelle Kwan pajamas.

Michelle Kwan once won a game of Connect 4 in 3 moves.

If it tastes like chicken, looks like chicken, and feels like chicken, but Michelle Kwan says its beef. Then it's freaking beef.

Michelle Kwan removed the "Escape" button from her keyboard. Michelle Kwan never needs to escape.

[Moto Guzzi]

The U.S. flag bearer hasn't been announced. It may be Michelle or it may be somebody from a different sport. The various teams for each sport nominate a person and then the team captains vote on which nominee will be selected.

If I remember correctly, in the 1980 Olympics Scott Hamilton was selected to carry the flag and he wasn't the men's champion at the time. I think the stories about his poor health as a child made people more aware of him as it was pretty remarkable that he had gone from a very sick child with a feeding tube to an Olympian.

[crayonskater]

Not a surprising honor to be nominated as she's the only marching Olympic figure skating medalist. The honor to carry it could go to her, too, unless another three-time Olympian is available, too. (Trying to think of who else there is, and all I can think of is Bode, but he's made too many public druggie comments lately.) Maybe an old skier or speed skater.

[Lark]

lovehating, haven't you ever considered a 3-posts-per-Thread maximum?

Any Kwan thread is literally, at LEAST, 40% you arguing and being hateful.

[stardust skies]

lovehating

Hahahahahahahhah. :bow:

[crayonskater]

You just know she's going to be whining about being run off a forum by a bunch of Kwaniacs... who are rooting for Irina... or something...

[lilwish]

I love Michelle and it would be an honor to carry the flag but if it is offered to her (I guess it would be bad form to say no)...I would rather see her come to the games later and miss opening ceremonies so she could concentrate on making her programs as good as they can be. Maybe she could do both?

CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts would be interesting to me.

shhhh, I am a big Michelle fan but I love Sasha too and also have a deep fondness for Irina. I don't know how I can live this double/triple life but I can and do.

[loveskating]

You just know she's going to be whining about being run off a forum by a bunch of Kwaniacs... who are rooting for Irina... or something...

Oh, dream on -- I was told by some screen names (Vespertine, Peg Lewis and Mcleomarie) when I refused to bash Tara Lipinksi anymore after SOI in 1999 that they would drive me off the net, and that was in 1999.

I'd hate to have a brain where I made up things like this all the time -- when you probalby know I was referring only to certain posters like yourself and to this thread.

Never said I would not read, and now you've changed the subject -- to me.

What a frigging bore that is. Me? Are you obsessed with me or something?

On the subject of Michelle Kwan, I'm sorry to inform you, although you probably know it, that most of the public out here greatly disapproves of MK taking Emily's spot. Like it or not, those are the facts.

[Tapper]

On the subject of Michelle Kwan, I'm sorry to inform you, although you probably know it, that most of the public out here greatly disapproves of MK taking Emily's spot. Like it or not, those are the facts.

On the contrary...

On the subject of Michelle Kwan, I'm sorry to inform you, although you certainly know it, that most of the public out there greatly approves of Michelle receiving her bye to go to the Olympics. Like it or not, those are the facts.

[NoVa Sk8r]

And MK didn't *take* anything. Shs was awarded a 3rd open spot on the Olympic team. :roll:

[Moto Guzzi]

http://www.usolympicteam.com/117_44107.htm

"The 2006 U.S. Olympic Team elected five-time Olympian Chris Witty as the flag bearer to lead the USA delegation into Friday night's Opening Ceremony of the XX Olympic Winter Games in Torino, Italy."

An excellent choice! I would have been happy to have seen Michelle chosen since Scott Hamilton is the only skater to date who has been a U.S. flag bearer, but Chris certainly has an outstanding record. I hope she wins more medals to add to her collection.

[loveskating]

On the contrary...

On the subject of Michelle Kwan, I'm sorry to inform you, although you certainly know it, that most of the public out there greatly approves of Michelle receiving her bye to go to the Olympics. Like it or not, those are the facts.

I honestly disagree. I think that is the hype. Americans never, ever approve of an established, honored and wealthy person taking anything that was legitimately won from an up and comer.

[Samskate]

loveskating, I've honestly tried to stay out of this entire discussion mainly because I don't like this kind of disagreement, but I have to ask you one question. Is it the fact that you perceive Michelle Kwan as having pots of money your problem with her? It keeps coming up in your posts.

I guess I actually have two questions. The other one is why do you keep insisting that Michelle Kwan "took" something away from Emily Hughes when it wasn't Emily's in the first place?:frus:

[daisies]

On the subject of Michelle Kwan, I'm sorry to inform you, although you probably know it, that most of the public out here greatly disapproves of MK taking Emily's spot. Like it or not, those are the facts.

You mean "factoids."

See, this is the problem. It seems anyone who "disapproves" believes Michelle took something from Emily. But Michelle didn't take anything from Emily, because the slot was never Emily's. I'd like to see someone find when and where Emily's name was on the roster of competitors at the Olympics. Good luck.

So, basically, these "disapproving" people are basing their opinions on an incorrect assumption -- that Emily was named to the team and then bumped. Part of the problem is the media, most of whom know nothing of skating rules and are instead causing controversy where there is none. Where was the outrage over Todd Eldredge? Meno & Sand at Worlds? It was nonexistent, as it should have been. Why Michelle's situation merits different treatment is beyond me.

It is my firm belief that once the people who "disapprove" learn what most of us know already -- that Emily was never named to the team, that Nationals are not and never have been an Olympic qualifier, that all proper rules were followed and that no special treatment was given -- they will change their minds and believe Michelle was the right skater to be named to the team. But these people have to be willing to accept this information first, and I think that is the brick wall we are running into with certain people on this and other boards.

(And now you can go look up "factoid" in the dictionary, because most people don't know its true meaning and incorrectly use it as a synonym for "fact.")

[pairs_guy]

This is what happens, when an Olympic committee gets to choose who they want to send to the olympics, you get all kinds of disputes.
1. Michelle should have had to compete nationals in order to go to the Olympics, it doesn't matter how good she USED to be.
2. We can't change the decision it's been made. Emily is young I'm sure she'll be around for Vancouver 2010.
3. :bow: congrats USA for throwing away your third spot. You'll be lucky to get one medal in the womens event!

[Schmeck]

Parents and skaters at the two skating rinks I go to do not feel that Kwan stole anything away from Hughes, but then, we understand the sport and we take the time to know the policies and rules of the USFSA.

[Tapper]

So, basically, these "disapproving" people are basing their opinions on an incorrect assumption -- that Emily was named to the team and then bumped. Part of the problem is the media, most of whom know nothing of skating rules and are instead causing controversy where there is none. Where was the outrage over Todd Eldredge? Meno & Sand at Worlds? It was nonexistent, as it should have been. Why Michelle's situation merits different treatment is beyond me.

It is my firm belief that once the people who "disapprove" learn what most of us know already -- that Emily was never named to the team, that Nationals are not and never have been an Olympic qualifier, that all proper rules were followed and that no special treatment was given -- they will change their minds and believe Michelle was the right skater to be named to the team. But these people have to be willing to accept this information first, and I think that is the brick wall we are running into with certain people on this and other boards.



Seriously, I am amazed at your ability to maintain such a firm belief when over and over and over and over again, the "disapprovers" on this board ignore the correct information that you and countless others have been giving them. I think we can say it till we are blue in the face and they still won't get it.

I think it's more than a brick wall we are up against here.

[Darrell H]

This will all only worsen once the Olympics are over. :frus:

[yvettedeena]

3. :bow: congrats USA for throwing away your third spot. You'll be lucky to get one medal in the womens event!

Interesting.. so obviously you don't believe Kimmie has the ability to get a medal and not only that but you really think Emily was going to get one, hmmm?

[crayonskater]

I'd hate to have a brain where I made up things like this all the time -- when you probalby know I was referring only to certain posters like yourself and to this thread.


Dude! We disagree with you because we think your arguments are bad! This does not mean we disagree with you because we're all rabid Kwan fans! This should not be a terribly hard distinction.

You did say 'I'm outta here', which we took to mean you were gone.

Americans are fine with moneyed entitled types beating out up & comers all the time. At least it seemed the last Presidential election went that way. Americans don't SAY they like that, and there's always enough sob stories, but hey, if you're following figure skating, you can't be under the delusion that these are all ghetto success stories.

I don't think Kwan's earned wealth is going to count more than Sasha's Mercedes or Emily's wealthy parents or Katy Taylor's Hummer obsession.

[daisies]

Seriously, I am amazed at your ability to maintain such a firm belief when over and over and over and over again, the "disapprovers" on this board ignore the correct information that you and countless others have been giving them. I think we can say it till we are blue in the face and they still won't get it.
Well, obviously the ones on this board are never going to get it, but I'm talking about the people out there who don't know any better -- the ones who are only basing their opinions on what the media is telling them. For example, the assistant at my chiropractor said she thought the Michelle thing was unfair. I asked her why, and she said the same old "because Emily got bumped, etc." Then I explained to her what the rules were and what actually happened. Guess what? She said, "Wow, I didn't realize that those were the rules. I thought something underhanded was going on. Thanks for explaining it to me."

She was OPEN to accepting the facts. That's the difference between her and someone like, oh I don't know, loveskating. And for as many loveskatings there are, and let's hope that's not many, there must be countless more like my chiropractor's assistant. That's why I have that firm belief. :)

[iceskater2]

Lovingskating has the upmost contempt for Kwan and her fans no amount of common sense will change her mind. Lovingskating I really do have a serious question for you? Are you friends or related to Emily Hughes?

You are entitled to your opinion and speak freely about it. But please stop slandering Michelle and those of us who support her. For the last time Michelle did not steal from Hughes, Hughes had nothing for her to steal.
If you want anyone to support your case please deal in facts without name calling.

FROM A PROUD KWAN SUPPORTER: :!: :!: :!:

[Tapper]

She was OPEN to accepting the facts. That's the difference between her and someone like, oh I don't know, loveskating. And for as many loveskatings there are, and let's hope that's not many, there must be countless more like my chiropractor's assistant. That's why I have that firm belief. :)

Good point! Keep up the faith!

[stardust skies]

On the subject of Michelle Kwan, I'm sorry to inform you, although you probably know it, that most of the public out here greatly disapproves of MK taking Emily's spot. Like it or not, those are the facts.

Facts are derived from data. Official data. Can you please provide a link with an American people poll on this issue? Otherwise they're not facts, they're just your theory. Which is fine, you can have as many theories as you want...but if you can't prove it true then it'll never be fact.

I will now await for your official research data. Bring it on.

PS: This is from someone who doesn't even think MK necessarily deserved to go. I don't disagree that it was unfair Kwan was sent because yes she has won a TON of titles, but that was in the past, and she's been injured and untrained and it's a new system, and all those past titles don't mean crap this year. What matters is how she is skating NOW, and from the sounds of it, she's not skating that well. HOWEVER, Emily Hughes never had an Olympic spot to begin with. The top 3 at Nationals do not automatically get sent- only the champion does. The other two spots are given away as seen fit. You can bet anything that if Sasha had somehow gotten injured and competed anyway and placed 4th or 5th, they would've knocked whoever was 3rd out of Olympic team contention and named Sasha to the team anyways. Would they have been fair? No, cause she skated poorly, regardless of the reason, and if she's injured for Nationals chances are she won't be back to a 100 percent by the Olympics. But do they have a RIGHT to do it? YES, it's in the rules. And Sasha wouldn't have stolen the spot from anyone's. But why am I argueing this? I'm certain that if Sasha had been the recipient of a bye instead of MK, you wouldn't even be having this argument. Or you would...but you'd be defending the USFS for being smart and sending her instead of whoever came in third. :roll:

[stardust skies]

This is what happens, when an Olympic committee gets to choose who they want to send to the olympics, you get all kinds of disputes.
1. Michelle should have had to compete nationals in order to go to the Olympics, it doesn't matter how good she USED to be.
2. We can't change the decision it's been made. Emily is young I'm sure she'll be around for Vancouver 2010.
3. :bow: congrats USA for throwing away your third spot. You'll be lucky to get one medal in the womens event!

I whole-heartedly agree with number 1. But number 3?! Have you SEEN Emily Hughes skate? Like she would have ever medalled this year. Not a chance. The third spot is "wasted" no matter who was sent, and the second spot, too. Michelle has a shadow of a chance if every judge overmarks her, which is unlikely, but certainly more likely than they overmarking Kimmie or Emily. The only lady with a real shot this year is Sasha, and I think mostly everyone knows that. Who else was sent really just didn't matter in the end. But out of Emily, Kimmie, and Michelle, I think Michelle's the only one with even the slightest chance. I bet she'll place better than Kimmie. Kimmie prerotates, has no presentation/is a complete bore, and crumbles under pressure (see Junior Worlds after she was ratified her mega-cheated triple axel at Nats last year and the press hounded her from every which way...she choked, and she admitted herself that she couldn't handle the pressure she had generated).

Not too long until we find out the results, though. Personally, I would just LOVE for Michelle to prove everyone wrong and win Silver (because I don't want Irina not to win Gold). God, I would love it, even if in the end I don't think she deserved to get sent. Because since she was, it might as well bring about something positive, like shutting up Loveskating.

[stardust skies]

Three posts in a row I know... but I was just thinking, out of this whole ordeal on this thread, how LoveSkating has a quote her child said (about Sasha, at that..) in her signature, and it made me realize...this person I am argueing with has a kid. Some impressionable little mind that's being molded to be "just like mommy". I don't know, maybe I'm naive because I'm still a little young to be thinking of having offspring, but I'd expect people who do have little ones to be a little more grown up. They have to set an example. And yet here is Loveskating, incapable of understanding simple facts or comprehending how people could abide by OFFICIAL RULES or carrying on a stupid, obsolete forum debate without name-calling and harrassing everyone who doesn't agree with her warped view of fairness. I really don't mean to be offensive, perhaps Loveskating is a great parent, but to think that the way she is behaving here is probably what she's teaching her kid, makes me really sad. I hope that isn't the case.

[skatergirlva]

This was on the NBC Web site. It does indicate that it is not a scientifically valid survey, but it does show Michelle's popularity.

Do you agree with U.S. Figure Skating's decision to allow Michelle Kwan to compete for the U.S. in the Olympics? * 17600 responses


Yes
72%

No
28%

Not a scientifically valid survey. Click to learn more.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9535152/

[Rapt2Go]

Lovingskating has the upmost contempt for Kwan and her fans no amount of common sense will change her mind. Lovingskating I really do have a serious question for you? Are you friends or related to Emily Hughes?

FROM A PROUD KWAN SUPPORTER: :!: :!: :!:

I highly doubt if LS is a friend of the Hughes'. I don't know how far the archives go back on skating boards, but if you could read what she wrote about Sarah's skating leading up to the the 02 Games and then after Sarah's win, you could see she's no friend to the Hughes'.

BOT: This whole MK on Team thing is a bit old. MK is there according to rules, not favoritism, not because the USFSA liked her costumes better than Emily's, not because NBC has a man on a grassy knoll....

It makes me sad that more people can't just support *all* athletes in Torino regardless of the sport they will participate in or the country they are from. I understand having favorites and all, but I'm proud of each and every one of them and given the chance, I'd tell them so. Isn't that the spirit the Games were intended to generate?

I sincerely hope every athlete has the performance of their lives in Torino.

Now, let the Games begin! I can't wait!!!

[loveskating]

A special group of very, very angry, defensive and upset people, that's for sure!

However, you are off target. On the issue of MK's bye, it is and has been MY view that Kwan should not have asked for a bye. Since she did, however, it is my view that the USFSA could not and should not deny her.

While I don't think the USFSA erred, your almost religious claim that Kwan took nothing from Emily I just simply absurd -- let's put it this way -- if Kwan had not asked for a bye, Emily would have gone to the Olympics -- practically speaking -- you can invent reasons why not, but they are not valid.

Sorry, I just cannot go along with illogical nonsense like that. But go ahead and deamonize and witch hunt away -- I know you need it, I suspect you even set it up -- it thrills you, afterall, I've seen you do this to so many people on the Net, maybe to thousands of people.

Heck,maybe Kwan will land that 3/3 loop she promised to land at Nagano, eh?

[EastonSkater]

loveskating...you already made your points before, but you keep coming back with inappropriate stabs at people (words like kwaniacs, angry people, demonize, illogical nonsense) that you don't agree with. That's a bad habit which needs to stop.

[Samskate]

loveskating, as I think I said once before, how many ways can you try to say the same thing and attempt to rationalize your way of thinking?:frus:

[stardust skies]

A special group of very, very angry, defensive and upset people, that's for sure!

However, you are off target. On the issue of MK's bye, it is and has been MY view that Kwan should not have asked for a bye. Since she did, however, it is my view that the USFSA could not and should not deny her.


Actually, just for the sake of debate here...even if Michelle had not asked for a bye, since Emily's skate at Nationals was dismal, the USFS could have very well taken it upon themselves to engaged in talks with Michelle to find out if she and her doctors felt she would be ready to skate by the Olympics, and if the response had been "yes", then the USFS could have named her to the team anyway, I do believe. The federation will name whoever they feel have better chances at Olympic medals, it is their right and their freedom. They can pick whoever. If they had wanted to send Amber Corwin, then they could have. Again, the only person guaranteed a spot is the National champion in an Olympic year. The way they choose the other two spots varies from Olympic to Olympic, and they are really allowed to name anyone they damn please. You really can't say "what would have happened if.."

Since the USFS DID send Kwan, I am pretty convinced they would have tried to get her even if she had not initialized the process by requesting a bye herself. I'm sure you disagree, and that is fine, but really neither of us know what would have happened, so I have as much a chance at being right as you do. The fact is though, that it HAS happened, so maybe you could be a grown up and cheer everyone on anyway. They're all skating for the U.S., afterall.

[iceskater2]

Michelle Kwan is in Torino and appeared on the Today Show this morning she looks great. I hope she skates really well. And yes Lovingskate I would be estatic if she landed the triple triple but somehow i suspect you would still have something to say.

[nbct]

Just because someone competes for the US does not guarantee MY allegiance. I love my country, but I also reserve the right to love athletes regardless of their national origin.

Some of us just don't dig Kwan. Never did; never will. :roll: Cheers to those of you who do. All opinions are valid.

[flippet]

Wow, I'm glad I've been ignoring this thread for a while....talk about a broken record. But anyway. Since we're talking about Michelle...

Katie Couric interviewed her this morning, and said something about Michelle being 'the spirit of the Olympic Games'. I nearly spit my coffee across the room. :roll: Yeah, someone who (at least at Nagano, I can't remember exactly what she did at Salt Lake) arrived late, left early, didn't stay in the village, didn't even march in the Parade of Nations, iirc, and basically ignored the entire 'Olympic experience' to be able to say 'I came, I skated, I left'. I hope that this time, at least, she actually takes it all in and goes for the whole experience over and above the competition...because she's a long shot for a medal of any color.

*correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, but that's the way I remember it.

[EastonSkater]

If someone hasn't asked her the reason for it, then it's hardly up to anybody to assume stuff....because how does anybody know if something wasn't troubling her at the time? If she competes....she competes.

[Moto Guzzi]

Yeah, someone who (at least at Nagano, I can't remember exactly what she did at Salt Lake) arrived late, left early, didn't stay in the village, didn't even march in the Parade of Nations, iirc, and basically ignored the entire 'Olympic experience' to be able to say 'I came, I skated, I left'.
*correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, but that's the way I remember it.
A recent article (and I don't remember which) said she didn't march at Nagano on the advice of her doctor because of the stress fracture in her toe. It wasn't completely healed at nationals and her doctor felt it best that she not risk stressing it. I thought she did take part in the closing ceremony, but I may be mistaken. The ladies' competition is one of the last events so she couldn't have left the games too early.

You're correct that she didn't stay in the village, but she's not the first athlete not to stay in the village nor will she be the last. It seems that every Olympics, there's a flu outbreak in the village, and some athletes don't want to take a chance of catching it.

I think she learned a lesson from Nagano, though, because she spent more time at the SLC games.

[MQSeries]

[QUOTE=flippet]Katie Couric interviewed her this morning, and said something about Michelle being 'the spirit of the Olympic Games'. I nearly spit my coffee across the room. :roll: Yeah, someone who (at least at Nagano, I can't remember exactly what she did at Salt Lake) arrived late, left early, didn't stay in the village, didn't even march in the Parade of Nations, iirc, and basically ignored the entire 'Olympic experience' to be able to say 'I came, I skated, I left'. [QUOTE]

The "spirit of the Olympic Games" is about the joy of competing and not about winning medals. So why shouldn't Michelle be a good representation of the "spirit of the game" ?

[NoVa Sk8r]

And NBC just showed Kwan marching in the opening ceremony. 8-)
(Along with John Baldwin press lifting Rena! :P )

[flippet]

The "spirit of the Olympic Games" is about the joy of competing and not about winning medals. So why shouldn't Michelle be a good representation of the "spirit of the game" ?

Exactly. I remember Nagano, and Michelle was so focused on 'winning' (or at least performing well) that she didn't seem to be having very much fun doing it.

I realize that other athletes don't stay in the village, but I think they're missing out on something, too. I'm not precisely faulting Michelle for doing what she did, but to say that basically skipping out on the whole atmosphere of the Olympic experience to simply compete (against the same competitors you compete against every other time, so it's not like that's much different) still qualifies for 'the spirit of the Olympic Games' is what strikes me as wrong. The Games are about more than just competing, they're also about a coming together of nations in peace, to celebrate sport and respectful competition. The competition part, she got. The 'coming together' part, not so much. In that light, I thought Katie's comment was a bit OTT. It's more that I disagree with what Katie said, rather than what Michelle did.

It's nice to see Michelle in the crowd shots tonight. I hope she's having a great time.

[Rapt2Go]

I should have grabbed the beer and the lawn chair, no? NBC coverage sucks.

[loveskating]

I greatly disagree with this theory. As much as Americans love TALKING about the American Dream and earning stuff by hard work, the principle of meritocracy, in reality Americans do not practice this at all. In any number of sports the big name tends to make all star games over those who are not well known but had a more spectacular season. And certainly within government we have many cases of those with connections and money beating out those with better skills.

I'm not sure you can call Al Gore an up and comer but certainly the 2000 election was the case of an established, honored and wealthy person taking something that was legitimately won by someone else who was more qualified (though also established, honored, and wealthy).

I agree these days -- and certainly, its always a big tendency.

But I don't think you can claim legitimately that the majority of the public goes along with that aristocratic behavior -- especially since even after 9/11 (Americans have never voted a president out during war) Bush still barely won as to the actual numbers (won big by electoral college, not by actual votes).

Also, it is often simply a matter of having to wait until there is an opportunity to do something about it, whatever "it" is.

Of couse, as to figure skating, although I believe most Americans paying any attention feel Kwan was wrong to seek a bye under the circumstances, they don't really care enough to do anythign about it -- they will just hit that remote or make comments. No big deal.

Its like NBC is pushing Bode Miller -- I could care less, nothing they say causes me to be interested. But now I know his hame.

[Laetitia_Hubert]

I think Michelle's goal this year is to do what all of the ladies who have beaten her in the past have done....that is to focus on enjoying the games. I read an article where she said that she feels no pressure because no one really expects much from her as she isn't one of the "favourites" for gold and this may help her out a lot. She used to skate with the gold medal taunting her brain but now she said she just wants "to skate her heart out." This may work well in her favour. So I'm glad she appeared at the Opening Ceremonies because it shows that she's taking a lot of pressure off herself and just taking it all in just as Tara and Sarah did.

[PrayingForIrina]

So I'm glad she appeared at the Opening Ceremonies because it shows that she's taking a lot of pressure off herself and just taking it all in just as Tara and Sarah did.

Me too! 8-)

[Tapper]

Of couse, as to figure skating, although I believe most Americans paying any attention feel Kwan was wrong to seek a bye under the circumstances, they don't really care enough to do anythign about it -- they will just hit that remote or make comments. No big deal.


I believe that you are wrong in your belief.

[Live-a-little]

I hope she settles down -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11286981/from/RSS/?meta_salt=1138887

[loveskating]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11286981/from/RSS/?meta_salt=117828

Article reports on MK's practice. To compare, in her first practise at Nagano, she only fell on her lutz, then landed it.

The poll (unscientific) asking if Michelle should withdraw is 75% for her withdrawing...but once the Kwaniac net machine gets into play, I think those numbers will change, so in that sense, the numbers are often false on some of these questions in that they reflect more the view of an elite rather than the everyday person.

Its like the way some books get on the best seller list is that organizations buy thousands of them and then they just sit there with no one actually reading them -- VERY false, maniplative stuff!!

I never, ever in my life want to see Michelle Kwan or any great skater humiliated, so I just hope that she is not influenced by the more fanatical of her fans and does what is best for HER, which would be to withdraw in time for Emily to skate.

[loveskating]

I believe that you are wrong in your belief.

Thank you for not deamonizing and making personal attacks -- it is a DEBATABLE issue, and an interesting one, IMHO.

I can certainly see the basis for your analysis...much of this is simply unknown factually so both of us are speculating.

[Spider68]

If I hear her say this one more time I'm going to scream! But, it looks like I may not have too...according to this morning's Olympic update, she quit her practice 15 minutes early and there is a possibility she may withdraw and Emily Hughes will take her place. Evidently her groin injury has flared up due to the long plane ride and marching in the opening ceremony.

p.s. Someone that really has the "spirit" of the Olympics would have searched their heart (excuse the pun) and determined if he/she were honestly competitive and not taken a spot away from someone else that was more competitive IMHO.

[crayonskater]

I don't know about Nagano. It always seemed like a post hoc explanation; if Michelle had beat Tara, the media would have been praising her focus in training, sacrificing the fun of the Olympics for her dream. Since she didn't, the story was told as Tara soaked up the atmosphere and Michelle didn't, so she lost.

Just heard the Olympic update, too. Hope Michelle is smart enough to pull out if she's hurt; and hope she does it with enough time to let Emily mentally prepare.

(Everyone else has been attacking your beliefs, too, loveskating, not you. All the name-calling's been on your end.)

[MQSeries]

I believe that Michelle's father had a big influence on how she treated the Nagano games. I remember reading a quote from her where she said that her father told her she was at Nagano to do a job and not to have a good time. Imagine being a teenager with expectation of winning the gold and then to also have your father essentially telling you that it was your job to win the gold. I doubt anyone in Michelle's position in Nagano could have enjoyed the experience of the game, because that gold medal expectation was always looming over her head from both the public and her father.

I really do believe that her parents put unncessary pressure on her to succeed. I was not happy at all when Danny was her "coach" at SLC. I think it's a good thing that we don't see him at Michelle's competition much anymore, and she seems to have grown more independent as she matures. I'm just looking forward for Michelle to skate well. Who knows. Maybe all the planets and stars will be aligned correctly when she skates the short and long :)

Edited to add that I just read the msnbc article on MK's practice. Wow, it didn't sound good at all :(

[iceskater2]

MQSeries

I have seen Michelle and Mr Kwan many times when she skated at my rink, I never saw him be anything but proud and supportive.

I am sure Michelle will do what is right with class. If she withdraws I will be disappointed but the games will go on and I will watch and cheer for the other skaters.

[Spider68]

This is not intended as a bash. From my perspective, there is no question what Michelle should do. Be gracious and withdraw so that Emily Hughes gets a chance. Michelle has had her opportunity. As many have pointed out, had Michelle been competing actively during this year and was scoring competitively against Sluskaya, Arakawa, or Cohen, then yes, she should definitely compete. But she hasn't. She will never lose her place in skating history, but go out on "top". I hope she makes her decision quickly.

[Tapper]

Well, I'm saddened to hear that she is not feeling well and had to cut her practice short. I think that she is a woman of integrity and I believe that she will not let anyone down when she makes her decision whether or not to go forward. In other words, I believe that if she concludes that her body is not going to do what it needs to do, she'll withdraw in time for Emily to skate. JMHO.

[Tapper]

Sure, this may not be the technically accurate point but I think the general public really IS starting to see it as a case of Michelle not being fit to skate and by asking for the bye, if she isn't able to skate, even if Emily fills in, it does hurt her image. Of course if she skates and bombs it also does. If she skates and does well, that is the only way she could save herself now...but that is the least likely option at this point.

I don't think that it will hurt her image if she withdraws. I think that a lot of people will be disappointed not to see her skate, but I don't think those same people will begrudge her not being able to compete. At least, not nice people... ;)

[flippet]

It does show you where the general public's mindset is on this matter...they have a delusion about Michelle formed from seeing her pimped to them as the star of skating for so long.

I'd agree to an extent. The media creates a perception, and to the casual fan/general public, perception is everything. They won't research and compare. Michelle certainly has something special as far as skating is concerned, I won't argue that, but she honestly hasn't been technically competitive for a while--staying upright and having an undeniable presence has been squeaking her by. But the general public doesn't follow closely enough to know this, and the created perception is that she's still the best.


I think asking for the bye is sort of saying 'yes, I'm still the better than the rest' when that's honestly debatable. I don't think she is better, except she's got the weight of experience and past success and perception on her side--which you can't really sneeze at--it is something to factor in. But it feels presumptuous of her to ask for it, rather than have the committee give it to her unasked. But that's neither here nor there at this point.

If she's too injured to compete, I do feel bad for her. I think a healthy Michelle definitely has more potential at this point than Emily, for the reasons above. But if Michelle really can't skate, then she ought to step aside and let Emily skate---like any other injured Olympic team member would/should. At this point, it doesn't matter how Michelle got the spot. If she's healthy enough, I hope she skates and does well (though a medal's pushing it). But if she's too injured to do more than wipe up the ice, let the healthy skater go. It's all about who can put out the best program on competition night, not about who that skater is, or how they got there.

[phoenix]

I think asking for the bye is sort of saying 'yes, I'm still the better than the rest'

No, it's saying, 'yes, I'm still better than Emily', which is who she'd have had to beat to make the team if she had skated at Nationals. And I think that's totally true. If Michelle is healthy and skates well, she should be top 5....Emily will be lucky to be top 15.

[stardust skies]

God...well now my opinion has changed but only for one reason: I really thought Michelle was exaggerating her injury. It sounds like she wasn't, and in this case, then I think she's downright selfish. NOT because I think she took anything from Emily per se, she did not. But this is similar to the time two years ago she withdrew from the GP series only ONE week before the event, because she'd led everyone to believe she was gonna do it (and her only excuse was..."I've done it already, I don't feel like traveling for a competition that means nothing" or something to that extent), and then the poor replacement had only one week to get ready. Obviously, replacements should ALWAYS be ready, but there is a difference between physically ready and mentally ready. You're not mentally actually thinking you're going to get sent when you are a replacement, and especially the Olys, being such a huge deal, it takes a while to wrap your head around it and calm yourself down.

I have said from the beginning, that if she was so injured as to not skate at Nationals, there would be logistically NO way for her to be ready by the Olys, not with her kind of injury. But she said she knew she'd be ready, she said she knew she could win a Gold medal, so now that she's said that, she needs to skate by it and friggin skate. Humiliate herself, wipe the ice with her butt for the whole thing if she has to, but stand by her statement and SKATE. She should've known she wouldn't have been ready, I knew it just from what she said her pain was, and I'm a complete stranger! To say she's ready, to take the Olympic spot, and then to consider withdrawing is incredibly selfish. She made a commitment to the team saying she could pull it off, and now, either she'll bomb because she's still too injured to skate full out, or she'll withdraw and leave poor Emily to travel all the way to the Games and to mentally prepare herself (and caused her to miss the opening ceremonies, which isn't fair if Michelle isn't even gonna go through with this) in a week. That's disgusting. Either be ready to skate or don't ask for a bye. I was fine with her being sent if she was gonna shut up and skate. But if she's gonna whine about her injury then she should've stayed home. :roll:

And her quote: “I don’t know what’s reasonable for you to expect of me, but I know it has been a struggle for me this year,” makes me despise her all the more. What's reasonable to expect of her is a GOLD MEDAL WORTHY performance, because that is what she, in her own words, said she was certain she would be ready to do for the Olympics if the USFS gave her a bye. Stand by what you say, or dont' say anything at all. So lame.

[Bothcoasts]

She made a commitment to the team saying she could pull it off, and now, either she'll bomb because she's still too injured to skate full out, or she'll withdraw and leave poor Emily to travel all the way to the Games and to mentally prepare herself (and caused her to miss the opening ceremonies, which isn't fair if Michelle isn't even gonna go through with this) in a week.

I was surprised to hear that Emily's still in the United States--I was hoping that she'd be sent to Torino as Michelle was in Lillehammer in '94.

Will there be any hope of Emily's getting on a flight to Torino before Michelle's decision, in case Michelle does decide only one or two days before the SP? Obviously, I hope that Michelle decides whether to skate or withdraw quickly, for the sake of both competitors. Given that things are so unclear, wouldn't it be best for Emily to begin her travels immediately? Is that even feasible?

[nbct]

Like I said...never dug her. Dig her even less with this latest development. So a plane ride and cold air made her miss those pesky triples??? Go home. You already robbed Hughes of the Opening Ceremonies.

[MQSeries]

It's outright funny when people criticize MK for being "selfish" for wanting to go to the Olympics. Yeah, like everyone who criticizes Michelle's decision always put other people first before doing anything, right?

Michelle is like any other human being. She wants to be abel to make her own decision, wether it's right or wrong.

[loveskating]

Michelle has already made her mistake. I'm starting to agree with loveskating that the problem wasn't the USFSA granting her the bye but Michelle asking for it. Already I'm seeing a turn in public opinion starting to see Michelle as having wronged Emily and generally been unsporting. ESPN was covering the fact she had to cut practice short and may have to withdraw and they showed an e-mail and it was a guy basically saying Emily actually earned the spot through competition and the rest. Sure, this may not be the technically accurate point but I think the general public really IS starting to see it as a case of Michelle not being fit to skate and by asking for the bye, if she isn't able to skate, even if Emily fills in, it does hurt her image. Of course if she skates and bombs it also does. If she skates and does well, that is the only way she could save herself now...but that is the least likely option at this point.

If Michelle withdraws in time for Emily to skate, IMHO it will actually help MK with the general public. They will feel they have been through something difficult with her, a difficult choice that would be hard for anyone, and that she made the right, honorable choice, that she knows herself, etc. If she doesn't she better win gold, because otherwise, people are going to hold it against her, IMHO, and many will hold it against her either way.

[stardust skies]

It's outright funny when people criticize MK for being "selfish" for wanting to go to the Olympics. Yeah, like everyone who criticizes Michelle's decision always put other people first before doing anything, right?

Michelle is like any other human being. She wants to be abel to make her own decision, wether it's right or wrong.

Apparently, you haven't been following what I've said on this thread (which is cool, I don't expect anyone to, obviously..). I have been defending Michelle, but to find out that just as I thought, she's still injured, and still not ready, does make it seem selfish for her to lie and say she thought she could win a Gold medal just so the judges send her, and then as soon as she's there she tells people not to expect too much of her and that she doesn't even know if she's going to compete. I do think that is selfish. If she wanted to go, even injured, and skate like crap, but at least get to be there, then I'd think that would be fine- sure it wouldn't be great for Team America but freestyle skating is an individual sport first and foremost, so screw Team America in situations like that. I would be fine with her saying "I'll do my best", whatever that is. But to say "don't expect too much.." and "I might withdraw, I dunno.." is selfish because someone else COULD be in her place, and obviously she doesn't even put enough value on what she guaranteed the judging committee mere weeks ago to stick through with it.

If she wanted to go to another Olympics but not do any skating, she could've bought a spectator package. Heck, I'm sure it would've been given to her for free, had she asked.

My whole point is that you asked for a bye, you knew yo were injured when you asked for it, they gave it to you cause you said you'd be ready, so now skate. Period. If she wasn't ready at practice today, I'm sure she wasn't ready when she left for Torino, either, and since she probably realized it wasn't gonna get better in two days, she might've had the sensitivity to pull herself off BEFORE opening ceremonies, instead of starting the talk of it the day after it. It really does seem like all she wanted was to be there- the actual skating is optional. That, IMO, is selfish. If you don't think so, that's fine by me, everyone has different standards as to what is selfishness and what is putting yourself first. This is just where I draw my line.

[daisies]

This Time magazine blog sums up my feelings on the subject perfectly.

http://time.blogs.com/sports/2006/02/kwans_not_about.html

ETA: it contains spoilers about the pairs short.

[Laetitia_Hubert]

Apparently, you haven't been following what I've said on this thread (which is cool, I don't expect anyone to, obviously..). I have been defending Michelle, but to find out that just as I thought, she's still injured, and still not ready, does make it seem selfish for her to lie and say she thought she could win a Gold medal just so the judges send her, and then as soon as she's there she tells people not to expect too much of her and that she doesn't even know if she's going to compete..

In the end the JUDGES were the ones who made the decision. Not Michelle. She ASKED for the bye and the JUDGES GAVE IT TO HER.

They saw her perform and they assessed her accordingly. They thought that even with her groin pull she was better than Emily Hughes. Now that her injury is acting up is no one's fault. Crap happens and you just gotta go with the flow. But if you are angry at someone take it out on the "panel of experts" who sent MK. Everything she did was within the guidelines. The powers that be are the ones who made the real decisions.

[Tapper]

It really does seem like all she wanted was to be there- the actual skating is optional. That, IMO, is selfish.

Aye, but "seems" is not "is"... what seems to be may not be what is.

Let's give this some time and see if she doesn't loosen up some. Everyone is jumping to conclusions about a bad first day of practice after jet lag and a night sitting out in the cold. If you had seen the tape with her looking so distraught on the ice after falling you would know that Michelle is not taking any of this lightly. She cares. My heart goes out to her. Let's just try to have a little patience here.

Here's an article in the Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/11/AR2006021100427.html

She said she had been feeling good at her home rink in Lake Arrowhead, Calif., before coming here. She said she considered resting Saturday morning, but hadn't trained in two days and wanted to get comfortable on the Turin ice. Though she's staying in the Olympic Village, she said she might move into other housing as the competition approaches.

See? She felt good before getting there... she just needs more time, and she's got plenty of time to get back up to snuff. She can't rush it.

[yogurtslinger]

Well, apparently she's pulling out :(

[jazzpants]

Sorry folks!!! She has officially withdrawed from the Olympics. Emily is getting on the first flight to Turin while the Olympic commitee reviews an official form for replacing Michelle with Emily. Emily will know by them whether she is officially in by the time she gets in to Turin. :cry:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11302192/

I'm so sorry, Michelle!!! :cry: But you know in your heart you did the right thing by withdrawing now! And guys, it's not like Emily wasn't preparing for the possibility that this might happen, you know. She said in this one local news clip "Just let me know and I'm on that first flight to Turin!!!" So let's not think that Emily was just sitting around doing nothing. He was (according to her father) preparing for Worlds!!!

[stardust skies]

In the end the JUDGES were the ones who made the decision. Not Michelle. She ASKED for the bye and the JUDGES GAVE IT TO HER.

They saw her perform and they assessed her accordingly. They thought that even with her groin pull she was better than Emily Hughes. Now that her injury is acting up is no one's fault. Crap happens and you just gotta go with the flow. But if you are angry at someone take it out on the "panel of experts" who sent MK. Everything she did was within the guidelines. The powers that be are the ones who made the real decisions.

I'm not angry, just stating my opinion on the development. It's true that the judges gave it to her, but if she didn't feel ready by the time she left for Torino, she could have just pulled out then, instead of waiting ONE day into it to start considering it- I'm sure she's experienced enough to know that bad practices at home don't translate to miraculous recoveries in 24 hours on Olympic practice ice- she could've assessed the situation BEFORE The ceremonies began, so that if she does have to pull out, her teammate could go. Because see, the thing is that just because Michelle pulls out doesn't mean Emily will get to go- the USFS will have to petition the IOC and there is a very big chance they will deny the request to bring on the alternate and then the U.S. will only have two ladies representing the U.S., and then Michelle will REALLY have wasted a spot. The rules state that in order for an alternate to be accepted, the athlete they are replacing cannot have begun practicing on Olympic ice- Michelle has. The only exception in which an alternate could still come in AFTER the other athlete has started practicing is "extraordinary circumstances". A nagging injury that Michelle AND the USFS have been aware of for months doesn't qualify as such. It has been pointed out elsewhere that the same thing happened to Sandhu in 2002, so it's not like the IOC would never let it happen that a country would lose a spot entirely.

Of course, it'd have been crazy of Michelle not to go if she was able to get that bye, but all I'm saying is that it will be *her* who decides if she pulls out now, the judges will not pull her off the team, SHE will make the call. So she could've made it earlier. She said she may pull out, which means she may disagree with the judges who thought she was fit to be there. So if she's going to disagree with that panel and pull herself out now, she could've done so earlier by refusing the judges' decision to grant her said bye after realizing how subpar her practices were, how supbar her test skate was for her standards, and how her injury was not healed. Again I'd have no problem if she were healthy NOW and just lacked practice, or even if she weren't healthy now and decided to fight through the pain and see what happens. Heck if she wanted to compete with only double jumps I would be completely behind her, it's her right to be there, as you said the judges sent her. The *only* thing that irks me is the talk of withdrawing after all the claims and promises she made a mere week ago, that's all. She's there, she made her assesment, made her choice, and now she should skate. If there was ever a doubt in her mind that she could (and she clearly said earlier on that there wasn't), then she should've pulled herself out before. This is only referring to her saying she might withdraw. Otherwise I would have kept saying that it was her right to be there. And it still is her right. But she didn't have to accept it if she couldn't handle it.

It's only the first day of practice, and how bad she practiced is really irrelevant to my opinion. If she had practiced horrible, not even landed any single jumps, but not said anything about withdrawing, then I would've said "good luck Michelle, you can do it!" It's that she's talking of withdrawing, and at that, just ONE DAY after the opening ceremonies. I know she was baited the question, but it's simple...she said she could do the job, she took it on, so she had a sucky practice, and if someone asked her "are you still thinking of withdrawing?" she could have simply said "no, I had a crappy practice, but I was tired, it's the first day, and I have more than enough time to pull myself together". She didn't have to say "yes I may withdraw". That was her decision. And that's all that bothered me. But it does bother me a lot, I can't help that. The decision has to be made this week. No serious injury heals in a week. No skater goes from no jumps to "Gold medal performance" (her words) in a week. So if she's thinking she can't do it now, she could've figured it out two damn days ago.

And yes, I know I just said the same thing about 25 times. I'm sorry. :giveup:

[stardust skies]

And by the time I posted that...it became official that she withdrew. Props to her for doing it sooner rather than later, that's a good thing she did. However, it literally was TWO DAYS. She decided this two days after the opening ceremonies. I realize it's great that Hughes may get to skate (though again the IOC is under no obligation and it would be a great exception if they accepted this deal) but if she was gonna pull out two days after the opening ceremonies, then perhaps she could've let Emily enjoy the WHOLE experience.

I still, now firmly think she knew the whole time she couldn't do this but wanted to experience the Olympics one last time. That's why she marched in the opening ceremonies despite not doing it on the year she really was aiming for Gold to "rest". It would have been the logical thing to do had she really planned on competing with that injury. It would also explain how Rafael was held up on "Visa" problems and never bothered to even make it out with his injured athlete. Her family had not arrived yet, either. Finally, it's interesting to note the doctor who examined her today (Sunday) said that the current injury has nothing to do with the groin injury she was suffering from at Nationals. So now, Kwan, the least injured skater ever, comes up with THREE injuries between last summer and now? Hip, groin, and now we don't know. I still don't believe we know the whole story here.

Oh well, at least now the ordeal is over and the world (me included) can move on and root for the team to do their best.

[PrayingForIrina]

I go by KwansPrayerWarrior over on THE MICHELLE KWAN FORUM.....Except for a few of you, the attitude regarding Michelle is really appaling. I would never EVER say such heinous, verbally grotesque things as some people here have said.

You know who you are and I PITY you! :x After today, I won't be back to these forums. I cannot STOMACH the juvenile sentiment of some people. You're really sad

[stardust skies]

I go by KwansPrayerWarrior over on THE MICHELLE KWAN FORUM.....Except for a few of you, the attitude regarding Michelle is really appaling. I would never EVER say such heinous, verbally grotesque things as some people here have said.

You know who you are and I PITY you! :x After today, I won't be back to these forums. I cannot STOMACH the juvenile sentiment of some people. You're really sad

Was that sarcastic? Cause here you are "Praying for Irina"...and while I'm sure you can root for more than one skater at a time, it sounds like you are just kidding because you're so over the top.

If you are, then :lol: ..if you are not, may I suggest that you simply say that you disagree and if you feel so inclined, you can give reasons why to keep the debate going (cause that's what forums like these are for), and if not, then just say you disagree and move on. It's JUST a message board, and as Kwan has said herself, "this is JUST a sport, it's not life or death". People take these games and the results of them soooo seriously. I read on other boards sometimes, how some people can't watch because they can't handle the nervousness, or how they CRY if their favorite loses. That's so psychotic. You'd think they thought they were family or something. I think some of them do. Either way, it's just a sport, and it's just a debate. If you disagree, then disagree. Get over it, though. It's not so serious.

[yogurtslinger]

And by the time I posted that...it became official that she withdrew. Props to her for doing it sooner rather than later, that's a good thing she did. However, it literally was TWO DAYS. She decided this two days after the opening ceremonies. I realize it's great that Hughes may get to skate (though again the IOC is under no obligation and it would be a great exception if they accepted this deal) but if she was gonna pull out two days after the opening ceremonies, then perhaps she could've let Emily enjoy the WHOLE experience.

I still, now firmly think she knew the whole time she couldn't do this but wanted to experience the Olympics one last time. That's why she marched in the opening ceremonies despite not doing it on the year she really was aiming for Gold to "rest". It would have been the logical thing to do had she really planned on competing with that injury. It would also explain how Rafael was held up on "Visa" problems and never bothered to even make it out with his injured athlete. Her family had not arrived yet, either. Finally, it's interesting to note the doctor who examined her today (Sunday) said that the current injury has nothing to do with the groin injury she was suffering from at Nationals. So now, Kwan, the least injured skater ever, comes up with THREE injuries between last summer and now? Hip, groin, and now we don't know. I still don't believe we know the whole story here.

Oh well, at least now the ordeal is over and the world (me included) can move on and root for the team to do their best.

Yes, I think she marched in part because she wanted the experience (it would be her last, after all, regardless of how well she would've done). BUT, I also don't think she is selfish to the extent as that explanation makes her seem. Can you imagine having your whole life revolve around skating day in and day out for the last four years (and beyond), with that little nagging thought just beyond the fringe of your consciousness: I still have a shot at Olympic Gold! And that dream still burned, although its brightness gradually diminished.

The point is, the cognitive dissonance of everything her life has revolved around for so long with FACT: body is in too much pain to do the jumps, was just too much for her to handle all at once.

Sure, call it denial or wishful thinking... whatever you want to label it, I honestly do not believe she should be called selfish. Selfishness refers to a sort of conscious malevolence, which I do not believe Michelle is capable of. If she REALLY wanted to be selfish, she could've done like you said- gone out there & just did double jumps- in effect, saying to everyone: screw you, I just want my Olympic experience. She chose to pull out. Considering *everything* she's gone through to reach Torino, that is a monumental decision, and it must've taken her a lot of soul searching to be able to accept that reality.

Michelle's human. Her love of the sport and of the Olympics clouded her rational judgment. That's entirely forgivable.

[stardust skies]

Yes, I think she marched in part because she wanted the experience (it would be her last, after all, regardless of how well she would've done). BUT, I also don't think she is selfish to the extent as that explanation makes her seem. Can you imagine having your whole life revolve around skating day in and day out for the last four years (and beyond), with that little nagging thought just beyond the fringe of your consciousness: I still have a shot at Olympic Gold! And that dream still burned, although its brightness gradually diminished.

The point is, the cognitive dissonance of everything her life has revolved around for so long with FACT: body is in too much pain to do the jumps, was just too much for her to handle all at once.

Sure, call it denial or wishful thinking... whatever you want to label it, I honestly do not believe she should be called selfish. Selfishness refers to a sort of conscious malevolence, which I do not believe Michelle is capable of. If she REALLY wanted to be selfish, she could've done like you said- gone out there & just did double jumps- in effect, saying to everyone: screw you, I just want my Olympic experience. She chose to pull out. Considering *everything* she's gone through to reach Torino, that is a monumental decision, and it must've taken her a lot of soul searching to be able to accept that reality.

Michelle's human. Her love of the sport and of the Olympics clouded her rational judgment. That's entirely forgivable.

Hmmm. That's interesting. I don't disagree with that either. *sigh* I don't know, all I know is either way I am glad the decision has been made. And now I am making one of my own: sleep. :) Goodnight!

[PrayingForIrina]

Was that sarcastic? Cause here you are "Praying for Irina"...and while I'm sure you can root for more than one skater at a time, it sounds like you are just kidding because you're so over the top.

I think we should ALL pray for the skaters...I happen to only follow women's skating as my daughter skates now...I pray for Kwan, Irina, Meissner, Cohen, Katy Taylor, BeBe, Emily, etc.

I think it's very JUVENILE for someone to verbally cut another skater with the cyberpens, as some here are prone to doing. It's very nauseating and it needs to stop

[jazzpants]

Let's see what her take on this whole thing in about... oh, an hour? There's a press conference on this and I'm sure she has a good explaination for this.

My take on this is that it's possible that she was fine by Olympic time but reinjured that groin again on that triple flip fall during practice. But hard to say... I mean, I had a mild groin pull just this Christmas and got back on jumps in about a week. OTOH, I know of another skater who is still complaining about a groin pull four years afterwards and is still going thru his problems with his jumps b/c of that groin injury.

For all you guys who are skaters here, let this be a lesson for you to do your stretches and proper warm-up before you try for those jumps... and know when to say when!!! (i.e, everything in moderation.)

[Live-a-little]

Good luck Michelle .. take time to heal. I'll miss you competing at this olympics.

[nbct]

I thought I accidently stopped in the drama forum, looked at the URL and realized I was in the right place. Stop the drama! There are no Academy Awards to be given out here. Nausea, heinous, verbally grotesque...really...what garbage.

This whole story stinks of spin. Kwan went. Had no business asking to go in the first place. Had no business going, and ultimately got bitten. Now maybe she can get on with her life.

PS If you want nauseating, there's a real gut churner at Yahoo's Torino sight.

Here's a tidbit:

"It's always been a dream to win the Olympics and it's always an honor to represent your country," said Kwan, whose eyes filled with tears with every word she spoke. "My parents are here ... and they always want me to be happy, for their baby to win the gold and make my dreams come true. :cry:

:roll:

[dbny]

She has done the right thing. Just saw her press conference, and she was soooo sad. This must have been the most difficult decision she has ever made, and she had to make it entirely on her own. She talked about being honest with herself, and I believe she has been. That's not an easy thing and many people go their entire lives without ever doing it. IMO, in the USA, her stock goes up.

[EastonSkater]

That's no good. If it was me, a few Tylenols and I'd be up and running again in 20 minutes.

[MQSeries]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11302192/


“When I first put in my petition, I said I believed I’d be 100 percent by time the Olympics came around."

[MK] looked sharp during a Jan. 27 monitoring session that solidified her spot on the team, doing back-to-back run-throughs of her long and short programs.

....

After examining her,[Dr.]Moeller said Sunday he does not believe the current injury is related to the groin problem Kwan had during the national championships.

“She was cleared medically and told she had a complete recovery from the prior injuries,” Moeller said. “Based on my assessment at this moment, I would have to say it’s an acute new injury.”


According the msnbc article, Dr. Moeller examined Michelle at the Olympic and believe that this is a new injury. It's not something that she has been exepriencing during the weeks from Nationals up until yesterday.

Seriously, I wish all those arm-chair critics of Michelle (of any public person actually) would at least arm their venoms with straight facts before they go on their rants against Michelle base 100% only on their prejudices/preconceived assumptions about her. I'm sure even after reading the msnbc article, some people will still go on about how she's selfish, how she knew she was injured but just wanted to be able to march in the Olympics and get the free gits, how she's just an attention hog, blah, blah, blah..... Whatever. Enjoy spewing you venom toward someone you have no personal realtionship with. Whatever float your boat. Michelle can and will hold her head high after this.

[iceskater2]

When asked during the press conference if she would stay in Torino she stated she would go home. She did not want to be a distraction to the games, Maybe all of us should follow the lead and let this topic die.

Sad as hell Michelle is not competing Go Sasha Cohen. Now I am out of here and following my own advice.

Bye

[iceskater2]

Ok now I am being a hypocrite said I was out but after reading Bondo's post could not stop myself.

Bondo,
That was the best post I have ever read from you. Knowing how you feel about Michelle it was nice to read it. Thank you.

[dbny]

IF they do allow Emily to replace her I guess you can say no harm, no foul, but if they don't allow a replacement as seems plausible, then Michelle's actions will have caused major problems, cost another person HER dreams and can't help but reflect poorly on her.


Emily is officially in.

[Tapper]

Well, as a staunce fan and admirer of Michelle, all I can say is that my heart goes out to her. Selfishly, I will miss seeing her skate at the Olympics this year, just as I have missed her all season.

[daisies]

When asked during the press conference if she would stay in Torino she stated she would go home. She did not want to be a distraction to the games, Maybe all of us should follow the lead and let this topic die.


Very well said. Thank you.

ETA, great article from Newsweek:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11308215/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/

[NoVa Sk8r]

Too bad for the Kween.
It was the triple flip at the last Olympics that probably cost her the gold, and now the triple flip at yesterday's practice session that sealed her fate.
(Interesting how everyone was always talking about the triple loop being her nemesis ...)

What a sad state of affairs.
But Kwan will perhaps be remembered as the best skater (male or female?) to never have won Olympic Gold. She will forever carry that accolade--or burden--with her.

But now it is Emily's time to shine.
She will have to move from blizzard to blitz, media blitz that is.
Best of luck to HughesII!

[trains]

I feel sad that Emily had to miss the opening ceremonies of her Olympics.

[Tapper]

I feel sad that Emily had to miss the opening ceremonies of her Olympics.

Why? Do you think that Emily is so sad about missing the opening ceremonies that she won't be able to enjoy being at the Olympics? She's got more class and more maturity than that. From what I gather, she's pretty happy to be going to the Olympics and feels some compassion for Michelle. You might feel less sad yourself if you focus on being happy for Emily that she has this great opportunity to skate, and maybe you'll even allow yourself to feel some compassion for Michelle. Then again, compassion seems to be scarce on this forum, so, maybe not.

In any case, this story today is more about the disappointment that Michelle is so injured that she had to withdraw and has absolutely nothing to do with Emily Hughes missing the opening ceremonies.

Tomorrow the story can be about Emily arriving in Torino. And, just for kicks, I'm going to hope that Emily blows them away with a stellar performance. I like her a lot.

[Debbie S]

That's no good. If it was me, a few Tylenols and I'd be up and running again in 20 minutes.Oh, really? And you are an expert on groin injuries how? :roll:

Let's cool it with the conspiracy theories. Michelle wanted to march in the Opening Ceremonies b/c it's her last Olys and she wanted to enjoy the experience (whereas in Nagano, she was planning to be around until at least '02 - and she did march in the SLC Opening Ceremonies, and was "aiming" for the gold then), her coach's visa problems would make sense given that he's not a U.S. citizen and might have more difficulty traveling to/from the U.S and abroad, and it's very likely that she could have injured herself on the fall on the 3 flip (I hardly think she's the first skater that's happened to).

Somehow, I don't think Emily's cursing Michelle Kwan for forcing her to miss the Opening Ceremonies - she's probably bubbling over with excitement at competing at the Olympics (that is, once the airports in NYC reopen and she can fly to Torino). After all, 2 years ago Emily failed to qualify for U.S. Nats at the junior level. Six months ago, she had meningitis. She stumbled through her GP events. If you had told her a couple of months ago that she'd be an injury replacement for the Olys, she probably would have been thrilled.

Compare Michelle's actions with those of Nicole Bobek (or Tonya Harding's for that matter, but I won't go there). In '98, Nicole was injured, went to the Olys and fell on just about every jump and finished 17th. She could have withdrawn and given her spot to Tonia Kwiatkowski (say what you want about Tonia, but I'm quite certain she would have finished higher than 17th), but she didn't, and afterward admitted that she was injured and hadn't been landing her jumps consistently in practice.

[Tessie]

I am disappointed for Michelle. Howver, she made the right decision; she felt she could not go and skate her best and with the abandon that is necessary to put it all on the line without risking permanent injury or disgrace to the selection process and to US Skating. To me, this is just as indelible a mark on her courage as it would have been had she been able to skate well and win a medal.

I wish all the ladies the best. :)

[mikawendy]

That's no good. If it was me, a few Tylenols and I'd be up and running again in 20 minutes.

Two words: Randy Gardner.

[stardust skies]

She has done the right thing. Just saw her press conference, and she was soooo sad. This must have been the most difficult decision she has ever made, and she had to make it entirely on her own. She talked about being honest with herself, and I believe she has been. That's not an easy thing and many people go their entire lives without ever doing it. IMO, in the USA, her stock goes up.

Not to "nitpick" here, but I did read a quote saying she thought this was the hardest decision of her life. Honestly...and she's years older than me...but if by age 25, admitting she's injured and pulling herself out of the Olympics to let someone else who's healthy go even though she's already been and medaled twice is the hardest thing she's ever had to do, then I *really* don't feel sorry for her. I can think of about 100 things I've had to do or decide in my life that were more important and more difficult than pulling out of a sporting event. If this is the worst of it for her, then she sure has a life to be envied, not pitied. :roll:

[stardust skies]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11302192/



According the msnbc article, Dr. Moeller examined Michelle at the Olympic and believe that this is a new injury. It's not something that she has been exepriencing during the weeks from Nationals up until yesterday.

Seriously, I wish all those arm-chair critics of Michelle (of any public person actually) would at least arm their venoms with straight facts before they go on their rants against Michelle base 100% only on their prejudices/preconceived assumptions about her. I'm sure even after reading the msnbc article, some people will still go on about how she's selfish, how she knew she was injured but just wanted to be able to march in the Olympics and get the free gits, how she's just an attention hog, blah, blah, blah..... Whatever. Enjoy spewing you venom toward someone you have no personal realtionship with. Whatever float your boat. Michelle can and will hold her head high after this.

As I said..getting injured 3 times at three different places in your body in the space of 5 months when you never get injured is unlikely. And obviously, everyone is so busy feeling sorry for Michelle that no one even realizes that when you saw the practice session, she was screwing up on her triple flip BEFORE she fell. She was looking frustrated and having watery eyes BEFORE she fell. She fell close to the end of her practice, and she was clearly hurting before it. I really don't see how that fall would have "injured" her so badly that she couldn't heal in ten days...she's a skater, skaters fall like this all the time. I fall like this all the time, don't you? It wasn't a hard fall. The doctor is saying it's a new injury so the IOC could accept to send Emily because if it had been previous injury flaring up, they wouldn't have accepted it. I don't see why people have to be such sheeps and believe everything the media tells them, especially when AT FIRST the media was reporting that it was in fact her groin acting up, and only later did they go in to edit the story.

PS: People keep saying this criticism of Kwan stems from prejudice or ill-will towards her, but the funny thing people keep ignoring when replying to me is that I was all out defending Kwan for competing before she wimped out. I'm definitely NOT against Kwan as a whole, I just think the way she handled this was pathetic, so I no longer support her choices. When you are not a sheep who believes everything and follows everyone regardless of how right or wrong it is, then you can change your mind about things based on events. That's what I did. I supported her, and now I do not.

[Lark]

As I said..getting injured 3 times at three different places in your body in the space of 5 months when you never get injured is unlikely.

Actually, not so unlikely.

You get injured, you change the way you practice, or you put more stress on an unijured area, and you wear that area out.

I could easily see how injuries can follow each other.

And what do you have against sheep? :roll:

[EastonSkater]

I fall like this all the time, don't you? It wasn't a hard fall.

But your skills are better than hers maybe. That's what I'm guessing only.

[Samskate]

Good grief, she's withdrawn already. Why can't the haters give it a rest? Also, thanks to all the gracious posters who have had nothing but nice things to say. Do some of you have to keep kicking her when she's down? What do you do to puppies for crying out loud?:roll:

[stardust skies]

But your skills are better than hers maybe. That's what I'm guessing only.


Hahaha, well thank you, but I hardly believe I am or will EVER be better/as good as Michelle Kwan. One can only dream. :)

I guess I'm still debating about this because to me there is no sentimental value- it's not my Gold medal on the line, or anyone I care about's Gold medal (when I say care about I mean close friends/family, not someone I like from TV), or any of the posters' on here's Gold medal. At the end of the day, onlyone person was going to get that Gold medal, and Michelle was never really in contention for it anyway, so she really didn't waste an opportunity when you think about it rationally. This whole ordeal, to me, is just a good debate about the state of the rules concerning this sport in general...I really don't see why people are getting so offended about this talk. I don't get offended when you disagree with my point of view at all. I would really enjoy this conversation if people weren't acting so emotional about it. I'm sorry if my posts have offended anybody, that's not why I post on here- I am not a troll. I post my opinions because I think it's interesting to share them with people who don't think like me. But it's apparently just making people angry for some reason. Oh well. :giveup:

[icedancer2]

Don't worry stardust, MOST of us know you are definitely NOT a troll.

Keep it up with your insights. I think you're probably calling it closer to reality than most of the people on this board!:)

[Terri C]

Two words: Randy Gardner.

ITA!!
As I watched the story unfold yesterday, that's all I could think of!

[jazzpants]

I'll start with the funniest comment...

That's no good. If it was me, a few Tylenols and I'd be up and running again in 20 minutes.I don't know where you get your Tylenols but where I get mine, it don't come seasoned!!! :lol: (All of you guys who watch Emeril know what I'm talking about...)

Seriously EastonSkater! Have you ever had a groin muscle strain injury??? Seriously? I *have*!!! Not as bad as MK's, thankfully and I certainly couldn't jump well enough for a while. (I'm still trying to get back my loop jump, the jump where I have the terrible fall and injured my groin muscles on.) I have seen at least one very good skater who essentially stopped competing b/c of persistent groin muscle injuries... Please don't tell me that a few Tylenols will do 'ya good and expect me to take you seriously!!! :lol: And of course, you have to be care what painkillers you can take, per the anti-doping rules. ;)

For those who are complaining that Kwan took away Emily's opportunity to go to the opening ceremonies. 1) She already has seen some of it thru her big sister's eyes, 2) the girl had other more important things to take care of... namely preparing for Worlds and her SAT tests!!!, 3) Sasha has forego going to the opening ceremonies voluntarily and opted to train at home 4) Johnny is complaining about the hotel accommodations and stuff. I can't help but doubt that Emily thinks that missing the ceremony is that big a deal. I mean which would you do if you were in Emily's place? Preparing for the SAT for college or go to the Olympics Opening Ceremonies?

The doctor is saying it's a new injury so the IOC could accept to send Emily because if it had been previous injury flaring up, they wouldn't have accepted it.Unless you are MK's doctor, we'll never know for sure whether Dr. Mueller was telling the truth about Kwan's injury being a new injury. And assuming that the truth is that MK was not fully healed in time for the Olympics and the new injury diagnosis was a farce, think about which would be the greater sin? Having a doctor go tell a little white lie about the injury being a new acute injury to get Emily in as an alternate or having to tell the world the truth and take away Emily's opportunity to go in as an alternate?

This is a case of whether you choose to give MK the benefit of the doubt that this was a new injury. If you do, you get the believers. If you don't, you get those who thought Kwan should have NOT requested a medical bye in the first place. Besides the doctor would have to go and explain in detail to the IOC and show MRI's and x-rays and such to back the claim about it being a new injury. This is probably the only reason I believe MK would not know prior to the flight to Turin that she was gonna withdraw 48 hours later.

Bondo, you're spending way too busy kicking Kwan down to cheer on your favorite skater, Sasha!!! STOP THAT!!! :P Besides, don't you think that cheering on Sasha to win the OGM is a higher priority now than kicking another skater who's already out of the race? Think about it!!!

BTW: I think the bashing on this thread is really so STOOOPID that it's bordering on absurd. :lol: I mean, why aren't you guys cheering for Sasha, Kimmie and Emily!!?!? Leave MK alone!!! Wait 'til AFTER the Olympics to go bash Kwan, for heaven's sakes!!! :twisted:

[Terri C]

Look gang, what's done is done.
Right now, we need to focus on the following:
Getting Emily out of NY to Torino
Cheering for I&B tomorrow night in the pairs free
Praying that Camille behaves Tuesday night in the men's short!

[Tapper]

BTW: I think the bashing on this thread is really so STOOOPID that it's bordering on absurd. :lol: I mean, why aren't you guys cheering for Sasha, Kimmie and Emily!!?!? Leave MK alone!!! :twisted:

Ain't it the truth! To all of you cold-hearted bashers, I say "Phooey on you!"

[Chico]

Please, all the nasty talk is NOT necessary. Personally, I'm sad for the girl. (Me too! I was rooting for Michelle.) Nobody knows but Michelle and the doctor.

Chico

[NoVa Sk8r]

I thought Dick Button was kidding when, on USA's Olympic Ice show, he said that MK should join him in the commentator's booth. Guess it was serious:

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/torino2006/figure_skating/news?slug=ap-kwan-no-thanks-nbc&prov=ap&type=lgns

[Samskate]

I was kicking her when she was still up...

We all know you were kicking her when she was still up. Call it Bondo's favorite sport.:)

Have you ever seen Anchorman?

Sorry, but I've never seen Anchorman. Assuming that question is tongue-in-cheek?:??



Ok, enough being facetious, but seriously, I would induce vomitting and never return to this forum if all it contained was people saying bland platitudes, being gracious and having nothing but nice things to say. What the hell would be the point of a forum without disagreement or discussion that doesn't always involve nice things (I prefer true things occasionally and the truth is often not nice).

This is a general skating forum, it is going to have differing opinions. If you want the kind of discussion free of "haters"...who in Kwan-world is anyone who doesn't drink the kool-aid apparently, go over to a Kwan fan forum where the views are much more homogenous.

I don't expect people on this or any forum to always agree with me or each other. All I was saying was it would be nice to have even Michelle's detractors be a little bit kind and compassionate. And I don't drink kool aid.:lol:

[Samskate]

Sorry I messed up the quotes in my previous message!:oops:

[crayonskater]

Michelle was offered a commentator's job by NBC (and her husband didn't even die...), but she turned it down, saying she didn't want to detract from the other skaters. Probably wise, I can't imagine she'd be in a good state to watch someone else skate for gold.

[Spider68]

Michelle was offered a commentator's job by NBC (and her husband didn't even die...).

Shame on you! What an AWFUL comment. This should be deleted from the string. Michelle isn't even married - I have no idea where you are coming from. Shameful! :x :x :x :x :x

[Tapper]

I was kicking her when she was still up...
Ok, enough being facetious, but seriously, I would induce vomitting and never return to this forum if all it contained was people saying bland platitudes, being gracious and having nothing but nice things to say. What the hell would be the point of a forum without disagreement or discussion that doesn't always involve nice things (I prefer true things occasionally and the truth is often not nice).

This is a general skating forum, it is going to have differing opinions. If you want the kind of discussion free of "haters"...who in Kwan-world is anyone who doesn't drink the kool-aid apparently, go over to a Kwan fan forum where the views are much more homogenous.

You don't have to go to MK Forum or a "Kwan fan forum" to find a discussion relatively free of "haters"... there are other boards where people are much more compassionate and reasonable than some of the posters on Skatingforums have been. Many of those more "gracious" posters actually used to be on Skating Forums. There are general forums where people disagree, but where they also show some semblance of consideration for others.

In fact, this thread, this turn of events with MK, has opened my eyes to how truly unkind, insensitive, and lacking in "graciousness" some of you can be. And, quite frankly, I don't like it. Personally, I really find your "kicking Michelle" comment so distasteful that... well, talk about having one's stomach turn. It just goes against my sense of what is decent.

Enjoy the rest of the Olympics, Bondo. I'm taking your unsolicited advice and leaving for more "gracious" fields.

Fed up and Outta here,
Tapper

[dbny]

In fact, this thread, this turn of events with MK, has opened my eyes to how truly unkind, insensitive, and lacking in "graciousness" some of you can be. And, quite frankly, I don't like it. Personally, I really find your "kicking Michelle" comment so distasteful that... well, talk about having one's stomach turn. It just goes against my sense of what is decent.

There is a reason we have a word for this: schadenfreud!

[Schmeck]

Hey, but at least Bondo has admitted that he's a Kwan-basher! Isn't that the first step in those self-help programs?

[daisies]

And obviously, everyone is so busy feeling sorry for Michelle that no one even realizes that when you saw the practice session, she was screwing up on her triple flip BEFORE she fell.
And apparently you're so busy ragging on Michelle that you don't realize the injury occurred on the first attempt of the triple flip -- the one she fell out of, not the one she fell on. She fell on the second because she could pull in her right leg and underrotated.

How do I know this? SHE SAID IT IN HER PRESS CONFERENCE. She said she fell out of the jump and felt something was wrong. You could see her awkward position when she fell out of it too. As a skater, I can totally see how that could have messed her up -- especially if she felt tight before getting on the ice.

She was NOT clearly hurting before that happened. She landed a clean triple toe, went for the triple flip and injured herself. She tried it twice more: once with a fall, once doubled, both mistakes most likely due to the injury.

Again, I respect all opinions, but only when they are based on facts.

[jpeach]

Ok now I am being a hypocrite said I was out but after reading Bondo's post could not stop myself.

Bondo,
That was the best post I have ever read from you. Knowing how you feel about Michelle it was nice to read it. Thank you. You're not a hypocrite, dear; you're just deluded.

As to Bondo:

I knew I'd find you and your multiple posts here.

"...I feel bad for her." Bullshit.

"...She seems to have lost touch with reality a little" Pot. Kettle.

"...and I feel for her." Liar.

"...but if they don't allow a replacement as seems plausible..." Where do you get this stuff?

"...then Michelle's actions will have caused major problems..." No deal.

"...You may say that I'm simply a hater..." Ya think?

"...but I think regarding Michelle I've just been a realist..." oh, hon, this is sad.

"...it wasn't because I wanted it..." Puleeze.

Get lost.

[daisies]

Not to "nitpick" here, but I did read a quote saying she thought this was the hardest decision of her life. Honestly...and she's years older than me...but if by age 25, admitting she's injured and pulling herself out of the Olympics to let someone else who's healthy go even though she's already been and medaled twice is the hardest thing she's ever had to do, then I *really* don't feel sorry for her. I can think of about 100 things I've had to do or decide in my life that were more important and more difficult than pulling out of a sporting event. If this is the worst of it for her, then she sure has a life to be envied, not pitied. :roll:

You couldn't possibly understand why it was her hardest decision ever because you've never (I assume) been an Olympic competitor. But Brian Boitano has, so let's let his blog answer your post:

Posted by 1988 Olympic gold medalist Brian Boitano:
Sunday, February 12 at 12:08 p.m. EST

The hardest thing for a person groomed to compete is to not do so.

This has to be one of the hardest decisions Michelle Kwan has ever had to make. So many things are wrapped up in the decision: letting your country down, letting yourself down and knowing that there will be no more chances to gain the only thing missing from your resume – an Olympic gold medal, something most people consider their number one goal when becoming a competitive skater.

Kwan's courage decision means she'll never know if she could have blocked out the pain and earned the gold that eluded her in 2002.
One of our most decorated and beloved skaters, Michelle had to have a lot of courage to withdraw from the Olympics . Even when injured, a great competitor always thinks that maybe somehow , on the day of the competition, the ability to compete will kick in; that someway you will still have a great performance and that your incredible focus will overcome what ailments you have.

That's why the decision is so hard. By withdrawing, you don't give yourself a chance to see if that would happen. You want that to give yourself that chance, because you have proven to yourself and others what a great competitor you are.

And even though everyone does know what a great champion Michelle is, this is a hard disappointment for her to have to live with. Maybe her ability to look at the whole picture, as well as who she is as a competitor, is exactly what makes her a true champion.

[Bothcoasts]

You couldn't possibly understand why it was her hardest decision ever because you've never (I assume) been an Olympic competitor. But Brian Boitano has, so let's let his blog answer your post:

Posted by 1988 Olympic gold medalist Brian Boitano:
Sunday, February 12 at 12:08 p.m. EST

The hardest thing for a person groomed to compete is to not do so.

This has to be one of the hardest decisions Michelle Kwan has ever had to make. So many things are wrapped up in the decision: letting your country down, letting yourself down and knowing that there will be no more chances to gain the only thing missing from your resume – an Olympic gold medal, something most people consider their number one goal when becoming a competitive skater...


Well-said, daisies!

[Samskate]

Yes, thank you daisies! Of course, now the Boitano detractors will crawl out of the walls to say he doesn't know what he's talking about.:roll:

[Schmeck]

Ah yes, when called out about a statement, the backpedaling answer would be:

"but I wasn't being serious" :lol: :roll: :lol:

So, I could say some nasty things about a skater (maybe Cohen?) but cover it later with 'but I wasn't being serious'...

Let's see, what could I say... She does like that 'look at my crotch' spiral... Does it right in the judges faces...

[Hannahclear]

People who kick others while they are down aren't worth arguing with.

Michelle will be just fine.

[stardust skies]

And apparently you're so busy ragging on Michelle that you don't realize the injury occurred on the first attempt of the triple flip -- the one she fell out of, not the one she fell on. She fell on the second because she could pull in her right leg and underrotated.

How do I know this? SHE SAID IT IN HER PRESS CONFERENCE. She said she fell out of the jump and felt something was wrong. You could see her awkward position when she fell out of it too. As a skater, I can totally see how that could have messed her up -- especially if she felt tight before getting on the ice.

She was NOT clearly hurting before that happened. She landed a clean triple toe, went for the triple flip and injured herself. She tried it twice more: once with a fall, once doubled, both mistakes most likely due to the injury.

Again, I respect all opinions, but only when they are based on facts.

Yours isn't based on facts anymore than mine. Like someone else said, unless you are Michelle or her doctor, you don't know what is going on, only what they are telling you. You choose to believe what Michelle says, I choose not to. Both of our beliefs are just that, our beliefs. I'm not so arrogant as to think I know what's truly going on, and I leave every possibility open to the fact that I might have it all wrong and she might be telling the truth. But it's not what I think, and my point is that I'm just saying what I think. And so are you. You believe her, but that doesn't mean she is actually telling the truth. You have zero way of knowing that.

I'm gonna try to explain my reasoning because I do have reasons behind it; I'm not just assuming Kwan's a liar because I don't like her or something. I didn't want to keep posting on this thread because I agree that everyone should probably let it go now that it's all over and talked out to death, but I'm making this one more post and then I'll try to not respond again as to not perpetuate more disagreements. So here is my "closing" if you will, haha.

My reason for not believeing Kwan is that they are saying it's a brand new unrelated injury, even though it's still a groin injury- if she had admitted that she was never fully healed and that her injury flared back up, then I would 100% believe her. But as it is and assuming she is 100% healed from her previous groin injury as she claims, it's just a little weird how she would have injured her RIGHT groin again (keep in mind that usually when you heal an injury and do physical therapy on it that side actually becomes stronger than the side that wasn't injured) and at that, by falling out of her LEFT hip (I know she said it wasn't on the fall, but that's still how she fell out of it the time she didn't fall, on the left, the way every skater falls out of jumps, and it doesn't pull on the right side when it happens, it pulls on the left, and either way a healthy person would be very hard-pressed to get injured that way at all) and when the injury she's been battling with ALL season has been to her right groin! What a coincidence. You could say "oh well it was weak so she just re-hurt it", but as I said above if it's completely healed then it's stronger than before, and either way even if that were the case, then it wouldn't be "unrelated" to her previous injury, so there is already one lie going on. And the doctors, before sending her to the Olys, said she was 100% recovered, meaning it wasn't weak, it was back to normal.

She also said that one of the things that perpetuated the injury was because she sat around in the cold for four hours and marched in the ceremony...how could it hurt her or make her stiff if SHE IS RECOVERED and her "new unrelated injury" didn't happen til the day later? There are athletes much older than Kwan (cause now she's playing the old age card) who were out in the cold too and they didn't break anything during their practices. My point is that she was already talking about something being wrong after being in the cold, and marching, and whatnot...even though supposedly she was healed from her previous injury by then and hadn't gotten her brand new unrelated one. So...why was she hurting already? From sitting on a chair in the cold with the rest of the Olympic team- none of which withdrew due to it, and you can bet she's not the only person who's been injured this season. Makes no sense. She's not 85, she can handle sitting for a few hours and marching a few blocks without hurting herself if a whole slew of medical people deemed her fit and healthy just days before. In regards to that "perfect" triple toe she did before the flip...it really was anything but. Before I'd even heard about her stiffness/injury/whatever and before seeing the whole triple flip hoopla, I saw that triple toe and wondered what was wrong with her. Did you see that landing? I don't think I've ever seen Kwan hang on to a landing like that on a triple toe ever. It curved ALLLL the way around, which is a mistake in technique, and normall she has the nicest, straighest ride-out ever. I obviously can't know for a fact, but I believe something was wrong before her practice even started, and sure she called it "stiffness" cause maybe that is what it was, but it was probably stiffness to her groin, and that's because it never healed and everyone lied about that hoping she could pull through.

My belief is she was never better. It's fine if you think she was and this injury is unrelated. That's just not what I think. I have no problem agreeing to disagree, and staying calm about it. I don't think you are a horrible person for believeing stuff that to me makes no sense. I love how when you say what you think and people disagree, you're immediatly a bad person or lack compassion. Lacking compassion would be me saying "GOOD, that idiot finally got what she deserves, I hope she realizes how much she sucks and drives off a cliff". THAT would be lacking compassion, and I would never say or think anything like that. I don't think it's lacking compassion not to buy everything the media (or skaters) says. Everybody lies at some point in their life for some reason, and I don't mean it as an insult to doubt someone's statements. And really, do you really think wondering if her injury is new or old is kicking Michelle? Talk about being self-absorbed enough to think that she would give a crap what any of us say about her on this forum. We mean nothing to her, and I doubt she's stupid enough to think that what a bunch of faceless posters on a skating message board think about her claims regarding her injury should be of importance in her life. This isn't a tribute scrapbook for Michelle, this is a message board here for us to discuss events. If I wanted to kick Kwan, I'd drive to her rink and do it. But I don't have anything personal against her despite what some people may think (conveniently forgetting that I was defending her until very recently and that I've always more or less stood up for her on this board), I'm just stating my opinion on a message board for the sake of discussion. People have opinions on everything. This place is just here for us to share them. As Bondo said...if everyone kept their true feelings to themselves and agreed all the time, there would be no need for this place at all.

One last thing: you are right that I have never been an Olympic competitor, but I have trained for it everyday of my life for years. I may never get there, but I have many friends who have and who I've talked about the Kwan situation with and who agree with me. So I guess it's a split issue. But what I know is that deciding not to compete isn't an important decision. Picking your parents' casket is an important decision. Adopting a kid from overseas and giving him some food and education through donations is an important decision. Becoming a doctor and opening a free clinic for the less fortunate and giving up millions just to try and help out is an important decision/sacrifice. Pulling yourself out of the Olympics is dissapointing, maybe even heartbreaking, but it's not anyone's most difficult life decision, and if it is, then I DO think that's ridiculous, and as with every other thought I have, that's my right. And your right is to disagree, although it'd be a lot classier (since everyone is so concerned with class..) to state your disagreements without bringing my personal life or achievements into it, as I haven't said a single bad or even questionably thing about anybody on this board. It doesn't drive your argument home in anyway, just makes you look a little desperate for a point to make. No hard feelings on my side, though.

PS: Brian Boitano and Michelle Kwan are very well known to be BFF's. I doubt he WOULDN'T back her up on something. They are attached at the hip. Both hips, if they could. It's nice of him, but it's a biased opinion, even if I'm sure it's how he feels. But the difference is that Brian Boitano had a chance at the Gold when he competed. Michelle didn't this year and everyone agreed on that, really. So maybe it would've been REALLY hard if she had had a shot and gave that up, but is it really that hard to give up on 4th-8th place? :giveup:

With that said, I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread now, I think I have shared my opinions on this to last a lifetime. :D

[loveskating]

Not to "nitpick" here, but I did read a quote saying she thought this was the hardest decision of her life. Honestly...and she's years older than me...but if by age 25, admitting she's injured and pulling herself out of the Olympics to let someone else who's healthy go even though she's already been and medaled twice is the hardest thing she's ever had to do, then I *really* don't feel sorry for her. I can think of about 100 things I've had to do or decide in my life that were more important and more difficult than pulling out of a sporting event. If this is the worst of it for her, then she sure has a life to be envied, not pitied. :roll:

Exactly! I read things like that and think "spoiled brat" and "Diva"!!!

I would not envy someone who thinks like that. Being rich does not make yo think that way -- something else does.

[loveskating]

Ah yes, when called out about a statement, the backpedaling answer would be:

"but I wasn't being serious" :lol: :roll: :lol:

So, I could say some nasty things about a skater (maybe Cohen?) but cover it later with 'but I wasn't being serious'...

Let's see, what could I say... She does like that 'look at my crotch' spiral... Does it right in the judges faces...

Oh, you've said PLENTY of nasty, hateful, vicious things about Sasha Cohen, as have most of you Kwaniacs, so please, spare us all your self righteous pontifications -- and especially since you all move in packs.

Bondo, I thought your post was right on the money.

People who kick others while they are down aren't worth arguing with.

Michelle will be just fine.

That would be most of you Kwaniacs, since you have a documented history of having deamonized and tried to destroy Tara Lipinski, Maria Butereskaya, Irina Slutskaya, Sasha Cohen, Sarah Hughes and anyone else who ever beat or challenged Michell, you very sicko little bullies!

Stardust skies, I think you raise some very interesting points. I agree with you that we are all speculating, and since that is the case, we could do without the kinds of pontifical, arrogant, morally superior attacks on posters as you are taking.

Unfortunately, some of us have learned the hard way that ANY deviaton from gushing about MIchelle leads to being deamonized and attacked personally and in packs by Kwaniacs who will tolerate not even ONE criticism of Michelle, or even mild negative speculation.

[Samskate]

loveskating, if you're going to continue to use the word "demonized", could you please at least learn to spell it correctly?:lol:

[loveskating]

loveskating, if you're going to continue to use the word "demonized", could you please at least learn to spell it correctly?:lol:

No. Stop acting like a teacher or editor. You are neither. You are perhaps a punctilious person?

I could care less how it is spelled. Sentences and words are for communication, and the English language is great because it is flexible.

Its a well known fact that Shakespeare himself spelled the same words used in the same manner differently.

[Debbie S]

Stop acting like a teacher or editor. You are neither.Well, I've been both, and I agree with Samskate. And if you are going to "demonize" Michelle Kwan, you should spell her name correctly too.:evil:

I could care less how it is spelled. Sentences and words are for communication, and the English language is great because it is flexible.Oh, brother! :roll: You weren't taught to read by the whole language method, were you?

:lol:

[Samskate]

loveskating, there you go again making assumptions. You don't know what I am or what I do.:roll:

[Samskate]

Perhaps I am punctilious, but at least I try very hard not to make assumptions about things and people about whom I know very little or nothing! Do you know the definition of punctilious?:lol: l

[NoVa Sk8r]

Its [IT'S!] a well known fact that Shakespeare himself spelled the same words used in the same manner differently.You, dear, are no Shakespeare (or in your spelling, shakespeer?).

Although you do come across as one of his tragic lead characters. ...

[crayonskater]

Nick Bottom?

In Bondo's defense, I don't think he's bashing at all. He's taking a decidedly negative view of Kwan, but well, it's all speculation. It may be unfair to ascribe such a negative view of her, but it's at least as warranted as praising her.

[jazzpants]

One last thing: you are right that I have never been an Olympic competitor, but I have trained for it everyday of my life for years. I may never get there, but I have many friends who have and who I've talked about the Kwan situation with and who agree with me. So I guess it's a split issue. But what I know is that deciding not to compete isn't an important decision. Picking your parents' casket is an important decision. Adopting a kid from overseas and giving him some food and education through donations is an important decision. Becoming a doctor and opening a free clinic for the less fortunate and giving up millions just to try and help out is an important decision/sacrifice. Pulling yourself out of the Olympics is dissapointing, maybe even heartbreaking, but it's not anyone's most difficult life decision, and if it is, then I DO think that's ridiculous, and as with every other thought I have, that's my right. And your right is to disagree, although it'd be a lot classier (since everyone is so concerned with class..) to state your disagreements without bringing my personal life or achievements into it, as I haven't said a single bad or even questionably thing about anybody on this board. It doesn't drive your argument home in anyway, just makes you look a little desperate for a point to make. No hard feelings on my side, though.Okay, then! I respectfully disagree with you. :twisted:

stardust skies: Your priorities are different from hers b/c your situation is different from hers! Comparing yourself to Kwan is like comparing apples and oranges!!!

In Kwan's case, she is more than just going after her Olympic dream, she is representing the United States in the Olympics. This IS HER JOB!!! There are many other things at stake besides her health. We don't know how many other people are impacted by her decision to pulling out besides herself and her fans. (i.e. Emily, Sasha, Kimmie, the OIC, USFSA, her family's business, i.e. the Artesia rink). It may also be difficult in that she's also finally facing a possibility that she may never obtain that elusive OGM b/c her body no longer will allow her. She has made it to that dream goal of competing in the Olympics... for her to stay on it is difficult. You, OTOH, have less of an impact to the country, b/c you know there's a possibility that you may never make it to that elite skaters' circle and you've probably adjusted your home life based on that assumption. So your priorities are strictly to those closest to you.

In short: You have to be her to understand the difficulty of the decision she's made. She has a lot MORE to lose by backing out than you know.

loveskating: When you are editing, there is a button on the top right right above the :halo: smiley (well at least on my browser) called "Check Spelling." USE IT!!! :twisted:

[Schmeck]

Oh, you've said PLENTY of nasty, hateful, vicious things about Sasha Cohen, as have most of you Kwaniacs, so please, spare us all your self righteous pontifications -- and especially since you all move in packs.

Please post links to posts where I have said nasty, hateful, vicious things about Cohen. If not, I'd appreciate an apology for slander.

[daisies]

I was going to respond to stardust skies, but I seem to have fallen asleep.

Good night!

I am KIDDING, people. Let's all lighten up! :)

[Hannahclear]

That would be most of you Kwaniacs, since you have a documented history of having deamonized and tried to destroy Tara Lipinski, Maria Butereskaya, Irina Slutskaya, Sasha Cohen, Sarah Hughes and anyone else who ever beat or challenged Michell, you very sicko little bullies!

Please link to the posts on this board or on other boards where I have done those things. Otherwise, kindly stop verbally attacking me. I believe this board has a policy against such behavior.

[Schmeck]

For ####'s sake, I said I wasn't being serious BEFORE being "called out." What the hell does someone have to do to speak non-literally and have people understand that. I mean, I realize it takes a higher order of thinking to think in a non-literal fashion but most adults do have the ability, I didn't realize you didn't Schmeck.

The "I really didn't mean it" is so incredibly childish that I didn't think you would stoop so low Bondo. It's like the "no offense, but I think your hair is really ugly" stuff the girls say in middle school.

[Laetitia_Hubert]

LoL! I can't believe you all are still fighting! Michelle is moving on with her career and life and maybe we all should too.

[crayonskater]

Shame on you! What an AWFUL comment. This should be deleted from the string. Michelle isn't even married - I have no idea where you are coming from. Shameful! :x :x :x :x :x

Calm down, sunshine, it was a backhanded reference to the earlier discussion that one had to have a horrible tragedy to happen (like G&G) to have a pro career or a spot in the commenter's booth (because Kwan has no popularity outside the heads of her fans).

[duckies77]

I find it somewhat curious that Michelle Kwan stated she would be leaving Torino after giving news of her withdrawal . She has this golden opportunity to stick around Torino and cheer on her US team-mates, buddies from the sport internationally too. Here was a chance to turn something positive out of her negative situation . Seems her focus does not extend to others, her team-mates or buddies. Cannot see how her presence would be a distraction, unless she chose it to be!

[dbny]

Honestly...and she's years older than me...but if by age 25, admitting she's injured and pulling herself out of the Olympics to let someone else who's healthy go even though she's already been and medaled twice is the hardest thing she's ever had to do, then I *really* don't feel sorry for her. I can think of about 100 things I've had to do or decide in my life that were more important and more difficult than pulling out of a sporting event. If this is the worst of it for her, then she sure has a life to be envied, not pitied. :roll:

Of course she has a life to be envied, if you're into envy. The fact is that some people are born with more talent, brains, material goods, etc. than others. That doesn't diminish their ability to feel distress on appropriate occasions, and it does not diminish my capacity for a little empathy. You are fully entitled to your feelings, as I am to mine. I choose not to criticize or judge yours, but that's from my vantage point of more than twice Michelle's age.

[dbny]

I find it somewhat curious that Michelle Kwan stated she would be leaving Torino after giving news of her withdrawal . She has this golden opportunity to stick around Torino and cheer on her US team-mates, buddies from the sport internationally too. Here was a chance to turn something positive out of her negative situation . Seems her focus does not extend to others, her team-mates or buddies. Cannot see how her presence would be a distraction, unless she chose it to be!

I do think it would be a distraction, not to the competitors necessarily, but to the viewers, as the public eye would be on her at least as much as on the competitors. This is their time to shine.

Incidentally, watching Scott Hamilton on "Skating With Celebrities", and Sale & Pelletier on "Olympic Ice", I think that Michelle may not have the personality for comentating. She is not particularly outgoing from what we have seen thus far. I'm not saying she could not develop the necessary skills, or that her public persona could not change. I just don't see it right now.

[duckies77]

[QUOTE=dbny]I do think it would be a distraction, not to the competitors necessarily, but to the viewers, as the public eye would be on her at least as much as on the competitors. This is their time to shine.

I do not think so.
In 2000, the year Bershnayae &Sikharulidze had to withdraw from Worlds when Elena failed a drug test after taking an over the counter cold remedy , they hung around and were on camera sitting watching the competition and briefly interviewed. In no way did it detract from competition, on the contrary it made them more affable/human taking an interest in their buddies progress. Team Spirit.
It would only be a distraction to viewers if Michelle actively sought the limelight and I do not think sufficient interest from TV would arise ,wholly on Michelle ,over and above competition, since she has had moment enough on camera re her withdrawal.
Suffice to say, it's commonplace for succesful medal recipients to be seen in the audience after victory at later events being briefly interviewed and adding some interest with their views, and to be seen to enjoy spectating.

[daisies]

It would only be a distraction to viewers if Michelle actively sought the limelight and I do not think sufficient interest from TV would arise ,wholly on Michelle ,over and above competition, since she has had moment enough on camera re her withdrawal.
You're not in the U.S. are you? If you are, which rock do you live under? No, seriously?

If Michelle had stayed, the press would have followed her. Everywhere. And the spotlight would be on her and not the ones skating. Bet on it. Even sports talk radio hosts who don't give two craps about skating are saying the Olympics are now boring without the drama of Michelle. The viewers want her, and the press would have given her to them. But she graciously stepped aside and allowed the team to shine.

It was the right decision -- and a selfless one.

[iceskater2]

For those of you who feel as if Michelle had stolen Hughes spotlight, look again seems she handed her a gift.

I have seen one interview with Kimmie one interview with Sasha and tons of coverage about Emily.

I can not help but think if she were named to the team from nationals she would have barely gotton a mention like they did with Savoie. I saw no mention of him until he actually skated the short.

Back to Michelle glad the media has finally given the story a rest. They replayed the story so many times someone must be living in a cave not to know she withdrew. I sure hope they do not have to resurface it again during the ladies program.

Once again Michelle showed the class she gained recognition for by not accepting the offer to announce during the ladies program. NBC what the hell were you thinking???

[nbct]

"Again, I respect all opinions, but only when they are based on facts."
--Courtesy of Daisies


Opinions are based on an individual's feelings, not facts. Opinions are differentiated from facts because they cannot be proved. Facts can. Apples and oranges. So, you must not respect any opinions.

[EastonSkater]

"Again, I respect all opinions, but only when they are based on facts."
--Courtesy of Daisies


Opinions are based on an individual's feelings, not facts. Opinions are differentiated from facts because they cannot be proved. Facts can. Apples and oranges. So, you must not respect any opinions.

Opinions are not facts, but opinions can be based on facts. That is, opinions can be made, based on facts.

[nbct]

Lovely. I stand by my original post. Facts are facts. Opinions are opinions. Apples. Oranges. Skater X has five World Championships...fact...can be proved. Skater X is the best...opinion...cannot be proved. Do you honestly think any of us here like our favorite skater because he or she won the most of or a certain color of medals??? We like them because they appeal to us on some level (There go those feelings! DRAT!). The facts (medal and championship counts) do not play into why we like them; rather, we like them in spite of their medal haul or lack thereof (in spite of the facts).

People on forums voice opinions. Some people on forums get knotted panites when their opinions are not coddled. :roll: That's what all the drama is about in here. Some of us think Kwan over-stayed her welcome. The ones who disagree turned this into a Greek tragedy.

[Schmeck]

And those that do not think she 'acted like a spoilt brat' laughed when others got their panties in a knot because she still has her endorsements, media interest, 9 US titles, 5 World titles, and two Olympic medals... :bow:

It's when people express their opinion as a 'fact', state such opinion as a 'fact', fail to prove it as a 'fact', get called out on it, and then whine, cast conspiracy theories, call people names, backpedal, slander, you know, act like a 'spoilt brat' that it makes me go :lol: :roll: :lol:

[EastonSkater]

But are you going to acknowledge that you made a mistake when you made that comment below?

"Opinions are based on an individual's feelings, not facts. Opinions are differentiated from facts because they cannot be proved."

That is, opinions are not facts, but opinions can be based on facts.

[daisies]

"Again, I respect all opinions, but only when they are based on facts."
--Courtesy of Daisies

Opinions are based on an individual's feelings, not facts. Opinions are differentiated from facts because they cannot be proved. Facts can. Apples and oranges. So, you must not respect any opinions.

No, I respect opinions that are based on facts.

As EastonSkater so eloquently stated, an opinion can be based on facts or not based on facts. I respect those that are based on facts. Opinions that are not based on facts are hollow, in my opinion.

It doesn't mean people can't have those opinions, it just means I don't respect those opinions.

Pretty simple!

[nbct]

No, Eason. No mistake made. I know the difference between facts and opinions. Opinions cannot be proved; facts can. One is feeling based; the other is provable. Where's the mistake?:D



"It doesn't mean people can't have those opinions, it just means I don't respect those opinions.

Pretty simple!"

Okay, daisies. I got out my secret, "pretty simple" decoder ring and it says: Opinions will always ring hollow to your ears if your litmus test is that they be predicated on facts. One more time choir, this time in high C: Opinions are not fact-based. They are made of that mushy-gushy feelings filling stuff, which despite being warm and fuzzy, is not fattening. Pretty simple. English 101 with a dash of humor. :D

[nbct]

"And those that do not think she 'acted like a spoilt brat' laughed when others got their panties in a knot because she still has her endorsements, media interest, 9 US titles, 5 World titles, and two Olympic medals..."


Schmeck, I do believe my words were "opinions not coddled," not spoiled brat. But if the proverbial shoe fits...;)

BTW, who would have panites in a knot over factual things like medals and titles? She has them, what's the beef? I will be curious to see where this latest chapter leaves her endorsement potential, though.

[nbct]

"Opinions are not facts, but opinions can be based on facts. That is, opinions can be made, based on facts."--EasonSkater

P.S.
And that, my dear Eason, is a beautiful example of an opinion. It is not a fact.:P

[EastonSkater]

"Opinions are not facts, but opinions can be based on facts. That is, opinions can be made, based on facts."--EasonSkater

P.S.
And that, my dear EasTon, is a beautiful example of an opinion. It is not a fact.:P

What I told you was not an opinion. I was telling you something in order to teach you that you made a mistake when YOU said that opinions are based on feelings and not on facts. That was your mistake. It's a case of I'm telling you where you went wrong.

[crayonskater]

Oh good god. Of course opinions are based on facts. Of course opinions can be derided for being stupid because they're based on wrong facts. If I decide I hate Tony Blair because he's the U.S. President and there's sooo many things wrong in the U.S., it may be just my opinion, but I'm still an idiot. If I think that Johnny Weir choked in the men's snowboarding competition and I decide he's not championship material, it seems that my opinion is wrong and based on the wrong facts.

None of that of course applies here; this is just a matter of taste. So there's no need to run around pretending opinions come from a world that has nothing to do with facts. It's just that opinions about beauty have very little to do with facts.

Which skater's artistic pretend orgasm face one prefers is purely a matter of taste. Which skater's spins are better is a bit of both. Whether Sasha Cohen sits at home going money, money, money and secretly hates all her fans may be an opinion, but it's going to be a dumb opinion unless it has some factual basis.

[daisies]

No, Eason. No mistake made. I know the difference between facts and opinions. Opinions cannot be proved; facts can. One is feeling based; the other is provable. Where's the mistake?:D



"It doesn't mean people can't have those opinions, it just means I don't respect those opinions.

Pretty simple!"

Okay, daisies. I got out my secret, "pretty simple" decoder ring and it says: Opinions will always ring hollow to your ears if your litmus test is that they be predicated on facts. One more time choir, this time in high C: Opinions are not fact-based. They are made of that mushy-gushy feelings filling stuff, which despite being warm and fuzzy, is not fattening. Pretty simple. English 101 with a dash of humor. :D

Jeez Louise. Are you kidding me?

Maybe I should have stated it this way: I don't respect opinions based on FALLACIES.

If someone has the opinion that, say, they don't like Michelle Kwan because they think she's a member of the communist party .... that is an opinion based on a fallacy. And that would be an opinion I wouldn't take seriously and wouldn't respect. That's not based on some "mushy-gushy feelings," in your words. If they had their facts straight, fine. But on this board a lot of people didn't have their facts straight -- like, "Michelle broke the rules," or "Emily was 'bumped' off the team" -- and then they were basing their opinions on those fallacies.

ETA:

crayonskater said this a lot better than I did!

[jazzpants]

Is this thread still going on!??!?! And everyone's still DEBATING!?!?! 8O GEEZ, Louise!!! :roll:

[lilwish]

maybe we should check with Winnie the Pooh. I seem to remember he had a lot of ideas - maybe opinions. I don't know if they were based on facts!:bow:

[iceskater2]

Ok now that the ladies event is over. I will go on record saying this.

A healthy Michelle would have won gold. I was very disappointed in the ladies event.

[EastonSkater]

Ok now that the ladies event is over. I will go on record saying this.

A healthy Michelle would have won gold. I was very disappointed in the ladies event.

hahahahahaha....yep. Seriously....a healthy Michelle could have clinched the gold for sure. It turns out that had a good a chance as anybody....and could have matched Arakawa.....not kidding about that.

[dcden]

hahahahahaha....yep. Seriously....a healthy Michelle could have clinched the gold for sure. It turns out that had a good a chance as anybody....and could have matched Arakawa.....not kidding about that.
I'm not so sure even a healthy Michelle would have won gold but she probably would have medalled. Then again, you never know. If she was competing in Torino, all eyes would have been on her, the pressure on Cohen would have been less and she subsequently could have skated better, etc.

[crayonskater]

Ok now that the ladies event is over. I will go on record saying this.

A healthy Michelle would have won gold. I was very disappointed in the ladies event.


Yeah. It's a hard what-if scenario, but one thing is clear: Michelle's lack of a triple-triple wouldn't have been the reason she didn't take gold. Beyond that, it's too what-iffy.

[dcden]

Yeah. It's a hard what-if scenario, but one thing is clear: Michelle's lack of a triple-triple wouldn't have been the reason she didn't take gold. Beyond that, it's too what-iffy.

I think for years too much has been made of the triple-triple. Granted, Sarah used it to win a very deserving OGM, but that seems more the exception than the rule. Meissner couldn't come thru with her 3-3's, and while Slutskaya was always hyped as having 3-3's (leading up to both 2002 Olys and 2006), she didn't come through either. Bottom line is, it's great to have a 3-3, but if it's not consistent you need to have some back-up technique to fill the void.

All of this makes me appreciate even more Yamaguchi's 3Z/3T in Albertville.