I might be changing from a 1/2" ROH to a 7/16" sometime in the near future. 7/16" is deeper and grabbier, right? But since 7/16" is pretty close to 1/2", is there even any difference?

In my patch figures class it seems like I skid a bit on the circles sometimes, especially when going fast, would a deeper ROH resolve that? Also I don't always feel secure in sit spin entries. What about spirals? Do deeper ROHs hurt or help for spin entries/spirals? And everything, really, how deeper ROHs affect jump takeoffs and landings, turns, crossovers, stops, and the spinning part of a spin?

Thanks in advance.

You're right - it doesn't sound much, but is significant as a percentage - almost 15% deeper.

For figures you want a shallower hollow, not deeper. The idea is that the shallower hollow makes the edges farther apart, so it's easier to get on a true edge. I'm currently working on my first test, and was complaining to my dance coach that my back edges are still leaving double tracings. He suggested that if I switched to my patch blades to practice figures I would find things a lot easier.

You might want a deeper hollow for your free skating moves, I don't know. My daughter likes hers deeper than most. But it will make figures harder.

Is it as significant while skating, though?

I'm not really concerned about double tracings or anything, nor do I test figures. I just have that class as a supplement to free skating. The coaches just want us to have a smooth, controlled edge that we can hold around the circle. Do you mean it would make it harder to have single tracings or to actually hold the edge?

I'm interested in ROH because at one point I was working up to 1" ROH, so I've had a couple of long conversations with various people on the topic, I'll try to bring together what I've been told.

ROH is dependent on several things a. experience of the skater, b. type of ice (hockey vs figure skate) c. skater interest (which today is usually freestyle)

A beginner will almost always have an ROH of 1/2 " (8/16's)
A lower fraction (down to 3/8 is the lowest I've heard of) is for skaters doing freestyle. 3/8 seems to be typical for freestyle on hockey ice.

'Flatter' ROH. fractions greater than 1/2" is seldom seen anymore except for figures geeks (moi). At one point I was at 9/16th preparing to work up to 3/4' a 16th at a time. Then I broke an ankle.

I was told that if you have a big ROH for figures, if you want grippy you'll have to get sharpened more often (this was from someone with figures experience in competition)

I don't know if thinking about ROH as being 'deeper' is a good way to think about it. I prefer to think about comparing ROH as 'closer' and 'further' based on the distance between the edges. The wider apart they are, the more glide you're supposed to have.

Also, ROH is not the only measure, there's two more. First some kind of angle in the sharpening that can affect the 'bite' of the edge, and at this point I hope some experienced skater will step in and take over cause for the life of me I can't remember what the third thing is. Mitch?

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Hmm, both hockey and figure skaters skate on the ice here. I went to a different rink once and it sounded hollow when I stepped on it, when I tapped my blade on it sounded kind of like what a high heel would sound like tapping down a hallway, but a little different. It also felt harder. I believe that was hockey ice, seeing as my home rink has softer ice and doesn't make hollow tappy sounds when you skate on it. I also could not spin whatsoever on the hard ice at the other rink, but I was able to easily spin when I went back and skated at home rink. When I tried to spin I rocked from toepick to heel and traveled quite badly, but I could spin perfectly fine at home rink.

I've read about bite angle before.. hmm.. I'm pretty sure my blades would be 0.15" wide, which would give them a bite angle of 9 degrees. Not that I know what that means as compared to eight or ten degrees.

Hockey is harder because it's a couple of degrees colder than figure skating ice, hence the tappy sound.
According to "how things work"
"Figure skaters and hockey skaters have different ideas of what good ice and bad ice are. Figure skaters prefer an ice temperature of 26 to 28 F. Ice in that temperature range is softer, so it grips the skate edges better. It is also less likely to shatter under the impact of jumps. Hockey players, though, prefer colder, harder ice. With many skaters on the ice simultaneously, it's easy for the ice surface to get chewed up at the temperatures preferred by figure skaters. For hockey games, the top of the ice is usually kept at 24 to 26 F. Ice that's too warm might cause players to lose their edge during a crucial play, but ice that's too cold may chip too readily."

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Great forum quotes:
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I skate at all 4 rinks in my area and each one has their own particular ice - one is a mall rink where there is NO hockey and the other 3 have hockey. Each one feels different on any given day - I think some of it has to do with the outside temperature, etc.

In any case, when I spoke with a hockey player about why they like the ice hard, he replied, "Because the puck moves faster on hard ice." He didn't think it had anything to do with how the blade felt on the ice.

Just my 2 cents.

I would say to the OP that you should try a 1/2 inch grind and see what you think.

I recently had my blades changed from 7/16 "deep" to 7/16 "light" (my sharpeners words not mine - he said that was "official" language LOL - I am guessing now from reading this discussion that it had something to do with the bite angle.

It made a HUGE difference with how I felt on the ice.

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I do feel a tiny bit of difference in winter, summer, and condition of the ice (glassy vs. chewed up), but my home rink has never made tappy sounds. The hockey team here is a big deal, but the freestyle skaters are also a big deal, a worlds champion skates here, and the freestyle schedule is for hours and hours each day, and you regularly see double and triple jumpers in freestyle. So I don't know if they have hockey ice, figure ice, or a compromise.

I currently have a 1/2" actually, and have for the last few months, I have no clue what the hollow was on my old skates before that. But it was very hard to stop on the 1/2" for a while, I would fall on my butt every time I stopped and started avoiding stopping, and just turned backwards and rode up on my picks to stop or ran into the wall. Though I eventually made myself learn to stop. I would guess that a beginner hollow was put on my old skates.
I just want to try a 7/16" and see how I do, since it seems like mostly beginners have 1/2", 7/16" must offer some advantage to freestyle skaters..

What's the difference between deep and light? I would guess that you liked light better? Would the sharpener at my rink understand me if I said 7/16" light? I am very careful with who sharpens my skates since one of them took the hollow completely off my old skates, I slid around in public-skate and asked the instructor what was wrong with my skates cuz I had just sharpened them, she ran her finger down it and eyed it and goes, " The hollow is gone !" So I had been skating on a completely flat blade. It hurts to imagine how much metal had been taken off of them.
Oh, and do sharpeners actually listen when you instruct them what hollow to put on? My new blades (not mounted yet) have a factory hollow of 7/16" so even if they normally don't listen I'd think they'd just sharpen whatever hollow was already on the blade. I think my new skates are due for a sharpening soon, it's been 17 hours of skating of which two were on previously mentioned hard ice, and I was initially planning to mount new blades when the sharpening ran out on these.. Not sure if they're dulling yet though I just thought that I might be slipping a bit on spin entrances. Though now I am too intimidated by the new blades to want to put them on anytime soon. I am afraid of the toepicks, not because of size, but because they're cross-cut.

Hmm, I've been rambling and perhaps threadjacking my own thread.

Watch out about making the hollow deeper - it's harder to spin that way. My sharpener had to gradually wean me off my deep hollow - I liked it grippy for landing jumps, and felt "slippage" when I first tried a shallower hollow. My spins were truly awful on deep hollows, and my coach felt that if I bent my knees more and leaned into my edges, I should not need such deep hollows. I am now happy with 1/2 inch, which is supposedly the norm for freestyle (and can spin!).

It's harder to spin? Really? I thought it'd be easier, besides the heel perhaps catching the edge, and I have 7' rockers which are easiest to spin on. Does anyone else have trouble spinning on 7/16"? My spins were pretty bad when I first got the 1/2" hollow but I adjusted pretty quickly, and they became much better than ever before in a very short time frame.

This is something that tends to be a personal thing that skaters have to play with.

I used to keep mine really, really shallow, but recently switched blades and went from 1/2 to 7/16. (At one point, about 10 yrs ago, I was closer to 5/8, no clue how I used to skate on that).

Going deeper does make it a little harder to spin on initially. I thought that spinning on a shallower hollow was much more forgiving, especially on back scratches and back sits. But it's really just an adjustment like any other (changing boots, changing to a different rocker, different toepicks, etc), and it doesn't take too long to get used to. It does make jump take-offs and landings easier right away because the blades grip the ice better.

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I can use the jump security. I've just recently done a salchow (before I would three-turn and sit on the backward edge for quite a long time, and if I attempted to jump it would be a sideways hop) and my favorite coach (that I would like to have privates with) hasn't seen it yet, and last time she worked with me on it I, of course, utterly failed, much to her annoyance. I've been doing it from back crossovers now and sometimes I slip on the take-off, and sometimes the landing is shaky, and I'd like to get it perfect before my coach has me work on it with her again.

I'm usually pretty good at adjusting spins. The first day I skated on a 1/2" I couldn't spin, I'd loop once and stop, but the second day I had pretty good spins. As mentioned before I slip on sit spin entries sometimes so hopefully a grippier edge would fix that.
It's not dullness either, I'm pretty good at knowing when my blade's dull, because I am incredibly picky about my blades being sharp. Comes from ten months of skating on dull rentals. Now, if my blades are dull, I lag through the lesson and get off the ice when the 15min free time comes. Bad spirit, I know, but I HATE dull blades. I can't do anything on them. Does 7/16" hold a sharpening better? I've heard that shallower blades have to be sharpened more often?

I have heard deep used in the context of grinding more than you would otherwise have to, to eliminate nicks. If I am right in that interpretation, you only need deep if there are significant nicks, probably because you or someone has touched blade with blade. Otherwise you should use light to make the blade last longer.

My impression is that small nicks have very little effect on skating. But if you feel a discontinuity as the blade passes a nick, you might want to go a little deeper.

Hockey skaters are more aggressive, and blade sometimes hits blade hard. They might get bigger nicks that would noticeably affect the way they skate, so they might want a sharpener to go deeper.

But my interpretation of your sharpeners "deep" and "light" may be different than the sharpener's.

Why not ask the sharpener??

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

Again, how long a skate will hold a sharpening is another thing that comes down to multiple factors--hardness of the ice you're on, brand of the blades, personal preference, money (as in "do I want to pay $12 to sharpen this week or can I get by another week?") I actually sharpen my 7/16 blades more frequently than my 1/2 blades, but they are a different brand (MK versus Ultima--Ultimas are known for holding sharpenings a little longer).

If you feel like you have a spot that's not catching, it might be the alignment/mounting, and not the sharpening. (The blade may be slightly crooked, the sole might not be 100% level, etc.) Have your coach look at this next time you're in a lesson and explain what/where the problems are. If he/she notices anything, take them to your skate shop to have them looked at and adjusted.

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The alignment's fine, any problem I have is the same problem I had on my old skates, such as the sit spin entry. I'm also hypersensitive to crooked blades, again from skating on rentals for ten months, I ran into quite a few skates that had crooked blades or loose blades or blades that were mounted on a diagonal rather than straight. Could feel it the instant I stepped on the ice. So I'm pretty sure I'd know if something were wrong with the blade. I'd love to blame spin entries on the blade, however, it's me

As a general rule, smaller ROH sharpenings don't last as long.

My personal experience is that blade care makes a big difference.

If you want your sharpenings, and your blades, to last longer:

1. Rust is bad. Wipe blades dry after use. If you won't use blades for several days, wipe them with a little oil.

2. Ventilation is good. Keep your blades in Soakers, or other breathable blade covers. Do not keep skates inside a bag or trunk.

3. Dirt and pollen are bad. Skate indoors.

4. Do not walk in your skates off ice - at all. After putting them on, use blade covers to protect them when you walk to and from the ice. If you want to preserve Soaker life, use the more durable hard shell covers to walk that short distance. Or carefully walk on the toe picks.

5. Hand sharpening does not extend sharpening life - done the ultrasharp way I like, it lasts less long, but usually wastes less metal and blade life, partly because you will be careful with your own blades. Hand sharpening is cheaper than paying a pro and you don't have to waste time dealing with the pro. Done right, with the right tools, the sharpening can be just as good. I don't think kids should play with sharp blades too much, but, since the O.P. says she works with hazardous materials like shoveling pig poop, she has perhaps learned to be careful.

6. Deeper sharpenings, in the meaning I listed a few posts ago in this thread, greatly reduces the lifetime of the blades.

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I always do 1, 3, and 4, except for the oil part. They air out on their side at home and though people give me strange looks when I forget my guards and tiptoe across the rink, I'd rather do that than speed dulling of the blade or perhaps step on something that will damage the blade. Though I am losing the battle with rust on my current Club 2000s. I am constantly taking surface rust off with citrus juice, usually about every two-three weeks. I just chalk it up to the blades not being that good quality. The rust is gone after I take it off but it appears again a few weeks later even with terrycloth soakers and them airing out at home on their side so the blade is fully exposed and allowed to dry.

5/6
I don't know if I'd call pig poop hazardous.. of course, I have to be careful around both horses and pigs, pigs sometimes imitate a bulldozer, and horses sometimes decide that they want you to carry them when they see something scary.
Sharp blades are a liability with me. I constantly have scratches on my arms from brushing them against the toepick or edge while the skates are in my lap, being wiped off. I'm not going to go the hand sharpening route, I'm just not good with things that require hand precision. I have never cut myself using steak knives, hoof picks, and other sharp items, but my current blades seem to enjoy attacking me every time I have them in my lap.
Of course, preventing nicks to prevent deep sharpenings is another reason to wear hard guards. And I very rarely step on peoples' blades on-ice, because of my wonderfully small class. I did once but saw no visible nick on the blade..

Perhaps I should buy a sharpening machine and have somebody teach my dad to sharpen. He works with metals quite a bit where hand precision is required. Of course, sharpening machines are out of my budget.

Depends on the brand (and thus the composition of the blade), too. I was going about 2 weeks longer between sharpenings on my Ultimas at a 1/2" hollow than I do on my MK Gold Stars on a 7/16".

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I did look at the Ultimas because of their sharpening length when buying my blade. But, they all had 8' rockers. I need an 8' rocker like I need a hole in my head. CorAces are supposed to be good at holding sharpenings, though not as long as Ultimas.

what blade are you currently in? I've lost track of this thread.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Check other threads. Ultimas have "clones" of all of the Wilson blades; they have "clones" of the Ace, Comet, etc. Actually ... the weird looking Lite blades are re-engineered Aces in terms of rocker and toepick; the Legacy is the CoroAce clone ... We've found the Ultimas to be phenomenal in terms of holding an edge.

As to the "depth" of your grind: do you have access to a good sharpener. Our sharpener discusses the "grind" with our skaters; he recommends changes to the grind based on their skating level, etc, and personal preferences.

Another "tip" to preserve sharpenings: if you are using hard guards, clean them out regularly (we put ours in the dishwasher). Stuff accumulates in the grooves, then, when you put them on, you grind the "stuff" against the blade. Absolutely deadly on a nice edge.

We have a chamois in each skate bag: does a great job in drying off the blades, then, once home, blades come OUT of the bag, covers come off, and they are allowed to air dry in a safe, room temperature area. Also helps preserve the boots themselves.

Club 2000. Which I'm not sure what level they go up to, but I've skated in them 15 hours and they already feel like they might be dulling, which just annoys me, a 15 hour sharpening life is pretty crappy. I skate on softer ice and wear hard guards.
I'm upgrading to CorAce, whether or not I need the blade, because I do not want to mismatch the life of the boot and the life of the blade. My mom insists that I wear out the Clubs first then put CorAces on, but by then the boot will have gotten halfway through its life, so when I need a new boot the blades will only be halfway done, so then I'll have to mount them on the new boots, and then I will need new blades halfway through the new boot's life.
So I want to sync the lives of the boot and blade, if that makes sense, I'll pay less for remounting and prevent a bunch of holes in the leather. However, my mother still insists on me wearing out the Clubs. And since I recently lacquered them she is complaining about how the lacquer seal on the blades will be broken when I mount the Aces, and she wants me to at least wait till I need a new lacquer, which will be months and months.
Can I use silicone caulk to seal the area where blade meets sole?
I don't see why she's so concerned, I bought both skate and blade with my own money, if I make a mistake it's my loss, not hers. She got a benefit out of this, she gets credit reward points out of the hundreds I spent, and she has her eye on a fancy camera that she can get if she has lots of points, and I made quite a large contribution towards that camera. Shouldn't we all be happy?
/rant

I love the way the Lites look, a girl at my rink has them, her spirals are absolutely gorgeous purely because of the pretty blade.
However when i looked at them, ALL their models had 8' rockers, even if it is a clone of the Aces the rocker doesn't match up.
I don't know about my sharpener. He seems decent. My coach recommended a lady but she is never in on Thursday mornings and I will only sharpen on Thursdays so I can skate on the blade in public and verify that a proper sharpening has been done.

Thanks! Didn't think of washing them before. I also air dry in a safe area, though I did not bother to buy a chamois.

Okay, 2 things. First, the life of boots doesn't always match up with the life of blades...I had my previous boots for about 18 months and had gotten the boots and new Pattern 99s at the same time (got them both at the same time because it happened that they were both shot at the same time). When I got my current pair of boots (same boots, just new ), the old blades went on the boots, and I'm expecting to not have to replace the blades until these boots go kaput in about another year (or there abouts...18 months was pushing it on the old boots). So, know that you can use your blades longer than 1 pair of boots, just as long as there is still life left on the blades.

Second, folks have moved away from lacquering the bottoms of their skates because if the hard lacquer cracks (as it does), moisture will seep in and you cannot get it out. It is better to use Sno-Seal to seal the bottoms of the boots. The beeswax will repel the moisture and you can reapply as needed. I will only do lacquer at the very end of the life of a pair of boots and if I want to spruce them up (I will put glitter in the laquer to make my ratty boots look a little funky ), but I will only do that then.

Good luck!! I remember having to buy my first pair of boots...it was painful, but satisfying (I was between my first and second years of college), and now I pay for everything as an adult, so I understand how much things really cost...now if only I could get that message across to the kids I skate with....hmmmmm......

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