Does anyone really go to Sectionals and not Nationals? It was one of the questions on the survey, so should be interesting.

It is very possible to have initial and final rounds at Nationals with large numbers - in my first bronze event we had 5 flights. There's just not enough difference in the competitors in open and championship events to justify them. Going to a sectionals event to qualify for the sake of qualifying to go to an event you would go to anyway is too much of a duplication of effort. There should be one or the other. The only point of qualifying events at sectionals would be to limit the numbers of skaters attending nationals, and we're not actively attempting to do that right now. It was a concern many years ago, but not anymore.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I've gone to sectionals and not nationals before, and I was planning on doing it again next year. Only because sectionals is close to where I live, though. But, I'm also not doing a qualifying event- I'm at Silver.

What is the reasoning behind the proposal? To mix the age groups? To get people to qualify through sectionals? To reward the very best bronze- and silver-level skaters in the country?

What if they had a superfinal round at Adult Nationals with the top two or three skaters from each age group competing against each other?

Other than making some skaters skate the same program three times at AN adding two more men's and ladies' events to the schedule, would that achieve any of the goals?

I went to sectionals last year with no intention of going to Dallas. If I had qualified, I would have withdrawn to let the 5th place skater go. Also, I'm of two minds right now on whether or not I'll go back to Lake pLacid - I may decide to go only if I qualify.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

That's what the original proposal for eliminating Sectionals proposed. Rather than have another qualifying round at ANs (not enough time to do this) you take the top finishers from each age group. And it would be percentage based (ie: if one age group has 12 skaters, but the others has only 3, you take top 4 from the former and top 1 from the latter, you see?). That way it's truly a representation of the best of each age group within a level. It levels the playing field, so to speak. It also gets rid of the disparity of the regions (though that's not as much of an issue now as it was when Masters Ladies had 13-17 skaters at easterns and Mids and only 4 in Pacifics for years and years).

Financially speaking, getting rid of Sectionals allowed skaters and the USFS to save money. And this is a real problem. It is difficult for skaters to take off work twice for Sectionals and ANs within 6 weeks of each other, and it is equally hard to get officials/judges to fly twice in 6 weeks also. Plus it's unfair to the men who are too few in number to bother holding a Sectional but to force them to spend the money to do so just to step on the ice and qualify.

And if you don't have to take off work twice in a few weeks to attend both events, it's possible to then extend ANs by a day. It may not be necessary, as there are other ways of cutting time out from ANs. There was talk at the Adult Meeting at ANs of doing away with the 20-minute warm ups. Sorry, but it's not something that Standard track does, and if people want Solo Dance and other events, getting rid of the 20 minute WU could allow all of this to fit. Do we really need 20 minutes to warm up your 1:40 interp program?

It also allows the Adult Nationals LOC to get the final numbers from USFS faster in order to get the final schedule to the AN competitors faster. Having just gone through this, we were not able to release the schedule or practice ice schedule until Mids was finished and people had turned in their intent to skate in their Open event. All this affected the release of the schedule. You all were hammering us "when is the schedule coming? when is practice ice coming?" Well, if Sectionals didn't exist, you'd get the schedule for ANs a LOT faster. That's just a reality. One could argue that Sectionals and ANs simply need to be further apart, but that's not always possible.

Long story short: the adult competitive track needs a lot of work. There are things that work well, and other things that don't. Another issue brought up at the meeting last Friday: Why are the age groups smaller at the low-end of the age range (21-28, 29-35) while the other span 10 years, resulting in the larger numbers of skaters in those higher age groups getting multiple qualifying rounds? They ended up combining I & II a lot throughout last week just to get a competition, while the IIIs and IVs had Q-rounds. Perhaps the age ranges should be shifted to reflect our demographic of older skaters: 21-30, 31-40, 41-47, 48-55, 56-??

Lots to consider.

Meant to add: The reason for adding Champ Bronze and Silver was to reflect the fact that our Bronze and Silver level skaters make up the bulk of competitors, so why not give them a Championship option similar to Gold and Masters? You don't have to do it if it's not your thing, but it makes sense. It was not to encourage sandbagging for goodness' sake, and it wasn't to make ANs all-qualifying.

So will the 20 min warmup be eliminated from free skate events or just interp. Hopefully it will just for the interp

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Tim David's Website

It makes sense to you, but not necessarily to everyone. Just because you have a lot of bodies doesn't necessarily mean you have to have something called a "championship."

Agree, but I think one of the side effects of this action would be sandbagging. Of course it isn't the intent, but I think it's going to be a result.

Harumph! So now I'd be a "??" - thanks A LOT!

Good for you! Us over-the-hill beginners might not be the best skaters but we're sure ENTHUSIASTIC!

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

"Do we really need 20 minutes to warm up your 1:40 interp program?"

Yes!!!! Or stronger coffee!!!!!

Nats use to end on Sunday, and then it was made a travel day. I'm all for beginning on Tuesday. I think the upper age groups are larger because that's where alot of are who started this a while ago. I just don't see the need for the championship rounds at all. Someone just asked for age groups, so the larger they get, the more similar they will be to the "open" rounds.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Another benefit of eliminating sectionals and using the AN open events as qualifiers for the Championship rounds is that it will simply increase participation in open events. A lot of times skaters enter the open but then drop out if they qualify for Championship. This will keep participation in the open events high.

BTW, AN did used to end on Sunday, but it also began on Thursday. It was always four days. It can remain four days under this new structure. Depending on the number of entries, solo dance might make it five. But honestly, solo dance can go at 7am -- and I say that being someone who would enter it. At least it would keep the pairs from having to skate that early!

Another BTW ... standard trackers do get an official warmup at Nationals. It may or may not be 20 minutes, but they do get ice the day of their competition on their competition surface.

Yes, thanks for adding.

Manleywoman,

You make a number of good points and have definitely convinced me!

I went to Sectionals this year, but skated up a level and didn't go to AN. I only went to Sectionals because it was near me.

Next year, I'll go to AN but probably not Sectionals. I can't afford to do both, and maybe it does make sense to make one giant competition.

Speaking of 2008 Sectionals, I saw the list at AN, and this is what I remember:

Easterns: Ice Vault; Wayne, NJ; North Jersey FSC
Mids: Ice Cube (?); Ann Arbor, Mich.; Ann Arbor FSC
Pacifics: Portland, Ore.; Oregon Skating Council

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I don't agree with the suggestion to use the open events as qualifying rounds to a championship event, with percentages taken from each age class. I don't mean to be ageist here but how can you guarantee that the best 33% (using your 4/12 and 1/3 example) of class V skaters would compare against the best 33% of class I skaters? If the group of 12 skaters comes from class I and the group of 3 comes from class V, then perhaps the 5th best class I skater would outskate the best class V skater, but would not be able to qualify under your scenario. IMO using such a method would not level the playing field but actually do the opposite.

I can speak from personal experience that sectionals is most certainly NOT a case of just stepping on the ice and qualifying. And if you were to extend sectionals to silver and bronze men, where the numbers are greater, it would be even more the case that sectionals is non-trivial. So you'd have to have some kind of qualifier. Again, I think using age group or open events at AN is not the best way to do this; qualifying out of each section seems fairer. If there are disproportionate numbers between sections for any given event, then you could use a percentage system since there is no quantifiable advantage of training in any one section versus another, or just use the existing fill-up rule.

I would really not want to get rid of 20 minute warmups. As hard as practice ice is to come by at Adult nationals, for some of us the 20 minute warmup is the only ice time we get aside from the 6 minute warmup and our actual event. I would rather have fewer events at AN done well than to have more events crammed into the competition with less opportunity to prepare well for them. But if we get rid of 20 minute warmups, then the new entry fee should reflect a proportional decrease as well!

If you transferred qualifying to occur at AN, this does not necessarily make it more convenient for the athletes. For example, this year, I had enough time after sectionals to determine what my final travel plans would be for nationals based on whether I qualified to championship or not and to book a flight and hotel on appropriate dates. If qualifying had been transferred to occur at AN, then I would have had to arrange to stay at Nationals at least through to the final day (i.e. final rounds) even though I would not have actually known whether I would have qualified to compete till then.

All in all, I can understand both sides of the argument for adding championship rounds to Bronze and Silver. But I would be opposed to adding these championship rounds if it meant doing away with sectionals and using open rounds as qualifiers.

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Whatever!

Very good one! Its hard saving up for two competitions. I'd rather save for only one. Next year my club will be hosting (NJFSC) sectionals so I can make it.

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Tim David's Website

Yes it is. At qualifying events everyone gets practice ice (I think it's 20 min., not sure on that), EVERY DAY, up to and including the day of their event. No extra cost either, I believe.

I'd say the official warmups could be done away with, if there's sufficient practice ice to allow everyone to at least skate/warmup the day of their event. It makes a HUGE difference (for me, at least).

I totally agree.

An additional thing I would like to see, however, is for those qualifying for a championship event to be required to withdraw from open events at the same level.........but I don't see that happening.

I have no problem with championship events for bronze and silver. I would never have a shot at it, but think it would be a nice option for those that would like to try. After all, the kids have Junior Nationals, so why not? As for sandbaggers, there will always be a few, no matter how things are structured.

I'm a little confused by what the 20 minute warmup is, but that's probably because I haven't been to AN yet. Is this practice ice or something else? I don't think 20 minutes is overmuch for a practice session?

It's basically a free practice session on the day of your event -- and usually on the same surface -- to allow skaters to warm up several hours ahead of time.

So everyone wants to keep their 20 minute warm-up. But everyone also wants to add solo dance. But everyone also wants to use IJs from now on. But everyone also wants to keep the entry fees the same. Etc, etc, etc.

See where I'm going here?

Guys, we can't do it all. Something has to give, whether it's adding days, charging higher prices, consolidating age groups, or whatever. It's all well and good to want all these great things, but it's expensive, and we only have four days, and only so many LOCs willing to host ANs and Sectionals. So you all need to consider the parameters that the adult community has to work with when adding or poo-pooing ideas.

That's what I was trying to bring up in the Solo Dance thread. Truly, we can't have it all, we especially can't have it cheaply at 4 days, much as we'd all like that. Would it be neat to have Championship Bronze and Silver? Sure. Is it really possible? Yes, at the likely expense of something else. What would you rather have?

I don't see how the kids having JNs is the same though. I don't have to qualify for Nationals. It's DOUBLY hard for a kid to get into the finals at JNs, they have to qualify through Regionals (sometimes through two qualifiers) and then qualify again at JNs. It's not the same.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Frankly, I'd rather have events like Solo Dance or Champ Bronze and Silver instead of 20 minute warm ups. Adults buy enough practice ice as it is, and frankly, if you don't know your elements or routine by the time you arrive, no final practice session is going to fix that.

If you eliminated all the 20 minute warm ups for ALL the events, that would free up almost a day of ice time for other competitive events. Not saying that's the solution. It's just something to think about.

But the rest of us at Silver and Bronze who have qualifying events have to do exactly this already. What if we make the final round and we don't have a hotel reservation? I didn't make the final round this year in Silver III but I ended up staying the whole time because my trip was paid for. I spent $$$ for extra days I didn't need to be there. (But I did get to cheer on my friends!)

The 20 minute warm ups are costing a lot of money to the LOCs who are now facing much higher costs due to the IJS system. It was one idea brought up to help aleviate the schedule problems. There was a huge amount of ice time wasted waiting for IJS scoring. My rink charges nearly $400 an hour for ice. We could never host a compeition using IJS.

As for Bronze and Silver Championship. The bulk of the skaters are in the III category. Do we really think that they will all be moving to Gold? Sure some will, but not all. So why not give them a championship? On the other hand,.... it was stated by the LOC from ANs this year that it would probably add another day to the competition. The LOCs would have to pay for this ice and medals etc. Further stretching what is already becoming a tight budget.

There's a lot of pros and cons to these RFAs and it doesn't seem that everyone has all the information neccesary to make decisions (or direct their delegates to do so) that will benefit the adult sector. I wish there was a place that the adult committee could post some of these things that they are thinking about and the rationales before they get so far in the process that the delegates end up voting for/against things that they aren't fully informed about.

end of rambling....

LW

Mids will be held at Veterans Arena in Ann Arbor MI, a couple of miles from the Cube. Some of you might have skated extra practice ice there when A2 hosted AN. It's the city owned rink - one sheet of ice (NHL sized), nice lobby, good locker rooms. We are limited by contract on how much ice we can reserve for competitions/ice show at the Cube during the hockey season. I do most of my skating at Vets (great ice). I just wish it was open year round.


As for time at AN, how about adding solo dance, championship events for bronze and silver, open events for pre-bronze, keeping the 20 minute warm up, and doing away with interp. (sk8er1964 runs and hides now)

ETA - personally, I don't use the 20 min warm up, I don't generally do interps, and it's doubtful (but not ruled out) that I would do solo dance.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Yes, but keep in mind that the adult committee is made up of a braod representation of adult skaters/judges. If you opened everything up to the general population, that could bring chaos. While I think it would be useful to have some way of getting information to the population, it's extremely difficult in implementation.