'they are equally qualified to compete at the same level, provided they are in the same age bracket.', this of course does not apply to pairs which have no age brackets.


Perhaps equally qualified to enter. In the pairs the age categories would make no difference. As pointed out, under the current rules there is no equitability at all in entry levels.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

whatever

and age catagories do of course make a difference where they exist

The adult skating world is so small that it seems illogical to me to purposely discourage a particular subset of skaters in order to win more medals at one competition a year.

To quote from Rodney King: "Can't we all just git along now???"

And YES, I'm saying knowing full well that I will likely be at the cellar on BOTH my events and I have NO chances in H-E-Double hockey sticks of making it to the final round on technical b/c I'm competing against people who probably skated as kids and have MITF and ice dance test background that I never would even DREAM of having now!!! Most of the so called sandbaggers I've met or know about are very KIND people who seriously WANT you to do well, just like most of the adult skaters! Why bash them??? Waste of energy!!!

I will use the old Bug Bunny Line: "If you can't beat 'em (the sandbaggers), JOIN 'EM!!!" Work on your own skating so you CAN sandbag!!! (Please take that last line very TOUGUE IN CHEEK!!!)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I have to comment on this. You know me, you know I am on the committee, and you know I have competed in all the ANs since the first one in 1995, just like you. So it is disheartening to me to read such generalities. The committee puts a lot of attention and thought into everything it does; it exists to promote and do what's best for adult skating. But the issues it deals with are also works in progress. We're working out the kinks on new issues just like we did on what are now older and established issues. It's the same in standard track -- look at IJS, for example: The levels of difficulty change every single year, and not always for the best, but TPTB see how things are affected and they iron things out as they go along.

Bottom line, we're all volunteers and we're trying to do our best. I know you've done this already, but to everyone else, if you have a problem with something, feel free to write to the committee chair or to your sectional vice chair, and we will try to help. Contact information can be found here: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=114

Julie Gidlow
Sectional Vice Chair, Pacific Coast
USFS Adult Skating Committee

The sit spin is why I will never try to pass Bronze Freestyle.

j

Or you can do like I do. I'm done learning new jumps for now. I'm too confused by the salchow. I love to do programs. I love to be part of the competition. I go out there and skate my program with my little half jumps but lots of smiling and personality and I usually come in last but I think people enjoy watching me skate and a good time is had by all.

That's not just for adults. My daughter always loved going to Regionals. She almost always came in last or second to last and she knew she would before she went. But she had a great time.

I think there's a lot of good to come out of participating in a competition and it is worth the money and time even if you don't have a chance of placing well.

Joelle

My feelings exactly. There are more reasons to compete in available competitions than how you place - for me, it's mostly about the joy of simply participating in a sport that I love, will never be very good at, but want to be a part of anyway. And as someone who has seen Joelle compete a few times, I can tell you that she absolutely lights up the ice with her nonstop smile and the joy of the sport. One of the wonderful things about figure skating is that programs are (or should be) about artistry as well as technical skills.

Mimi

What is discouraging to me is that when the adult system was introduced, I thought it was geared towards people like me who started skating as adults and were overcoming the same obstacles that every other adult--over the age of, I think, 25 as it was originally--was overcoming: working around kids, jobs, household and financial responsibilities while trying to learn something completely new.

My person experience is this: When I learned to ride as a kid, I didn't have those distractions and obstacles. I got pretty good and then stopped riding when I was 15, rode twice in college, and didn't ride again till I was in my late 30's, and after about six weeks participated in a gymkhana and won a second and third place ribbon. I stopped riding after that and have been riding 3 times since then--one of the times during an emergency I helped lead a trail ride. Your body just DOES NOT forget athletic stuff like that--your brain does not even need to engage. Adult onset skaters and returning skaters are generally not going to be able to be on the same page, unless the adult onset skater has talent, lots of free time to spend on skating, boogoo ice time, and boogoo bucks to spend on getting coaching!

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

Daisies, we all realize that we are all volunteers. I'm sure some issues get more consideration and thought than others. However with the latest set of pair rule changes it's difficult to see this. Last fall I pointed out specific problems and issues only to be told that "after a detailed review" that it was determined that I was the only one impacted. How detailed could it have been when 4 of the 7 pairs in this years group are in the same situation? Were the pairs competing in the last 5 years surveyed to actually find out if they were in this situation or how the latest set of rule changes would have impacted us? If this would have delayed the decision, then delay it rather than waste the committee's time making decisions with 1/2 information. This only results in having to take more time to change it the next session. When was the last time the adults were actually asked how they felt about any of these proposals? When was the last survey? (I know because I did it and it was quite a while ago).

Before any new rules are passed, the existing structure needs to be reviewed so there is a solid base of knowledge from which to work. What I pointed out to the pair chair and adult chair should not have come as a surprise to anyone representing pairs. It's great that we have the volunteers, but if you take on the responsibility of representing the skaters, than this is what is expected. There are too many of these rules that get pushed through with a "snapshot" picture of the situation now, and not enough research as to their history and future impact. Given that the group is all volunteers, I would much prefer more time taken to get it closer to right (or at least not worse) than the constant flurry of changes.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Wish I could say the same for me... I skated on public sessions every weekend and got to waltz jumps, one foot spins and a semi-decent shoot the duck when I quit skating. I did not have coaching back then... just followed along with the other figure skatng kids.

I came back to the sport 17 years later and I could not jump OR spin and barely could crossover!!! Took me about a half year to get a sorta hoppy waltz jump and one foot spin when I came back to the sport... and this time it was with coaching. And shoot the duck? Well, I started on it two years ago (It will be 10 years I've been skating as an adult in JUNE!!! ) and NOW I'm starting to get it to the point where my secondary coach says "I KNOW you can do a decent shoot the duck going FORWARDS and that's HARDER to hold that position than a sit spin. Therefore you have NO EXCUSE to NOT go down lower on that sit spin."

(Well... no comment!!! )

I guess the point is... this body certain had AMNESIA when it comes to skating, that's for sure!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I guess every body is different! I actually did one session of figure skating in the ISI program when I was 15. The only thing I remembered when I went back to skating in my 30's was back crossovers. I can do back crossovers like nobody's business! I have FABULOUS back crossovers! Too bad it is taking me six years to learn how to do a loop!!
And by the way...remind your coach that it's not so hard to go DOWN into the shoot the duck position. What's hard is getting back UP. (Let alone spinning around while you're doing it.)

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

Tell that to the U.S. Congress. Or the Federal Reserve. And those people get paid.

Nothing is perfect. We are trying. We appreciate you bringing it to the attention of the appropriate committee chairs, because that's definitely more productive than posting about it on a message board. (Not singling you out, just saying it in general, because a lot of people vent here rather than tell the people who can do something about it.)

See you in GR!

Daisies - you're exactly right! I don't know about the congress stuff, though.
sk8lady - Ha! I told my kids in group lessons today that if I could get down into a shoot the duck so could they!

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Yes, and I constantly have to remind them of that too!!! Case in point -- last Wed. with my secondary coach I did a sit spin she was all excited about (b/c it WAS low enough!!!) But soon after I went down on my butt and she gives me this look that says "GEEZ!!! Why did you have to ruin a perfectly GOOD sit spin by NOT getting back up again and instead sitting on your BUTT???"

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Back 3? I just passed FS3 and there was no back 3. The FS4 dance sequence has them.

ITA on the change-foot spin, that one element kept me at FS2 for an extra year.

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It's all about the dress!

But will they do anything? From my past experience, I'd say, no; they had their own agendas, which seemed to be focussed on the high end of the audlt scale, making AN closer to the "real" Nationals, generally making things harder for adults who started as adults to progress and actively discouraging new adults from taking up the sport (other than at the Basic Skills levels) because some people found adults without a lot of speed and skill to be "embarrassing" for the "real" skaters to be associated with. (And yes, I was told that last phrose to my face by one of the former committee members.) Can you wonder why I've given up adressing the committee? And I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I realize the committee members have changed but I'm still not seeing much evidence that the focus of the committee has changed. Until they remember who the Adult Program was begun for and why, I feel that talking to them is pretty much a waste of my time.

So I'll vent here where people at least listen and acknowledge varying points of view.

I was one of the ones "kid skaters" who "tested the waters" last year, having only competed freestyle at the pre-pre level a handfull of times (mostly when I was 11) but with a synchro background and on the higher end with regard to moves (which although I have novice I passed it 9 yrs prior) and dance. Where else was someone like me supposed to compete in free other than bronze? When I took my bronze free before the deadline to get the test in to compete at ANs, I could hardly do a back scratch spin, and really struggled with getting a good camel spin (never had a good camel spin to begin with when I was a kid). I think there is no reason not to "test the waters" and see where you belong as a new adult skater, particularly if you are strong in one discipline or two but trying something new...but if you do well, promptly move up to where you are competitive and not sandbagging. Winning every competition without having to put forth much effort won't make you a better skater.

As for the growth of these kid skaters at all levels...it's only going to increase. Over the past decade, the number of colleges offering opportunities for skaters to stay active in the sport (whether via on-campus figure skating clubs, intercollegiate competitions, synchro teams, etc) has grown exponentially. ALL levels (pre-pre through senior) are offered at intercollegiate competitions. As these skaters continue to graduate from college and wish to stay active in skating as adult skaters, they need to be accomodated.

Another thought--I do not think forcing everyone to compete at a certain level based on childhood test levels works in all cases. There are some adult skaters who skated as kids, and due to medical problems or other physical limitations simply cannot get near the level they used to be. I'm thinking of one skater I know in particular who, 10-15 years ago, was a very solid prelim or pre-juvenile skater (had an axel, working on a double toe, really nice spins). Today she has a medical condition that has caused a lot of weight gain and other physical limitations, and despite all the work she puts in, she's truly only a pre-bronze or bronze skater today in terms of jumps, spins, and just the ability to make it through a program (no way could this skater do a 2:10 program, 1:40 is a struggle for her and she no longer has the jumps/spins to pass a silver free test). I can think of another skater whom many of you know who had juv free as a kid, was competing silver as an adult (placing around the middle-bottom of the pack), and had to move up to gold by virtue of her juv free test she passed as a kid (and now has medical problems that prevent her from skating/training much, if at all). I think there should be a way for someone like these ladies who did compete as a kid, and has some standard free tests from years ago, to be able to petition to compete at a lower level due to physical limitations as an adult. Just like sandbagging won't do someone any good, having to compete where you physically are unable to be competitive also won't help anyone improve.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

OK I'm kind of being devil's advocate here. As I kid I only got up to a slow one foot spin from a standstill and no jumps so I'm definitely not a kid skater.

But isn't this all essentially based on tests passed? It's sports - and while I understand the frustration of not being able to get it as quickly as someone who had it as a kid (happens to me) - ultimately if people are at the same test level and in the same age class, there shouldn't be resentment. The problem isn't that the people who return can do it better...the problem is that we aren't meeting our OWN expectations for what we want to accomplish. Forget about the other people, do the best that you can do. I still can't get my stupid single flip back from only two years ago and it's keeping me from being competitive in any way. Stinks, truly. But I also do NOT want the bar lowered for me in any way. I passed Bronze tests and I skate Bronze ... so does the person who had a double flip 20 years ago and now has a great single flip...

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Revised Official 2010 Goals checklist
Skate __
New boots __
(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

I agree. I skated as a teenager and got through basic skills and did some pretty crappy pre-pre programs. Now, I'm bronze and skating less crappy programs of a slightly higher level. Sure, I'm going to be outclassed by skaters who were much better in their younger days, maybe getting through a few doubles. But that's just how it is. Stinks for me, but what's the alternative? I don't want to limit participation. Growing rates of adult interest, from new skaters and aging out skaters, will keep AN going.

This is even true of some adult-onset skaters I knew a decade or so ago.

They were in their mid 40s to early 50s then and had just barely managed to get a consistent enough loop or flip jump to pass the bronze freestyle test when that was the first adult test.

If they're still skating now, there's a good chance that because of injuries and general aging they can't do the loop or flip at all any more and have not increased their speed and flow, perhaps the opposite, even if they improved their technique.

Since then incoming adult skaters with that skill level would likely stay in prebronze.

But these skaters had already passed the bronze test so they wouldn't be allowed to go back.

At least it would allow them to enter Adult Nationals if they wish, and because the fields there are large enough to split by age they might be competing on a reasonably level playing field.

But at a local competition, they would be at a huge disadvantage competing against 30-year-old bronze skaters who started in their 20s and had to pass moves in the field tests as well to get to that level.

I'm glad I didn't push to pass the silver test 10 years ago when it was mainly stamina and the camel spin holding me back. Even if those have improved a little since then, my flip jump hasn't gotten any better (so I don't even bother with the lutz), and I'm not even ready to test the back threes on the silver MITF. I want to get to the point where I have the skills to pass the silver tests, and many years from now hopefully the gold moves, but I don't think I'll ever test silver freestyle because I'm not getting any younger, smaller, or less injured, and my jumps and stamina will never be comparable with what a younger, fitter bronze skater can do, whether they started and reached that level as kids or as youngish adults.

(And I was a preliminary skater, = to prepreliminary these days, with a beginner axel, way back before there were any separate freestyle tests.)

blue111moon, I agree with the last several posts and to comment on the issues you raised. As a past committee member, I do think the adult committee spends a slightly disproportionate amount time with AN level issues and within that context, also a lot of time on masters and qualifying event level issues, so I think some of your critisism is valid. Having said that, there is still plenty of time and effort put into rules and such affecting everyone. I think it should be understood that the committee does and should have limitations on the scope of what can be addressed on a national level. Perhaps 95% of everthing that affects the adult skater, 'adult onset skaters' and all, really happens on the local level, particularly at your rink, your club and at whatever smaller competitions are close enough to drive to. Making it to AN isn't guaranteed for everyone and certainly, neither is medaling. So most of the focus needs to be put closer to home somehow and off of a national committee and competition. I think a greater challenge would be to get entrants at local competitions to the point that enough skaters participate so that everyone can't get a medal!

Wxactly. For a while the numbers of adults at local competitions were increasing steadily, but in the last five to six years, the numbers I'm seeing (as an accountant, one of my duties is tracking numbers) have been declining to the point that some competitions have stopped including adults entirely. We're lucky now to get more than one flight of skaters in any level. And the new rule fobidding men and ladies from skating against each other at non-quals is going to hurt even more, especially since USFS has already outlawed skating against the book. Who wants to spend $60 to skate an exhibition?

The rationale the LOCs are using is that Adults have sectionals - and there are all-adult competitions like Peach Classic that "adults prefer" to give adults a place to compete. The attitude out there seems to be that the only competition adults are interested in is Adult Nationals - and that attitude has been fostered by the focus of the Adult Committee. Local comps are sort of the ugly stepchild in the corner. It's a shame really, because the local comps are where adult skating began - there wouldn't BE an Adult Nationals if adults hadn't started showing up at local comps and proving that they belonged on the ice as much as the kids.

It's easy now to blame the declining numbers on the economy. But the fact is a lot of adults have turned away from USFS and their narrow focus on AN. Maybe it's time the Adult Committee looked at that.

I'm an adult skater who never skated as a child. I'm trying so hard to get an uncheated loop jump and something resembling a sit spin but it may never happen. I'm only at PreBronze and will be for awhile given the above, so I don't qualify for Adult Nationals and even if I did, I don't think I can justify the expense to travel to Adult Nationals, to Sectionals or any adult-only competitions. So my only venue to get competition experience and to improve is at local competitions, and I am grateful for those opportunities. I really hope the committee continues to keep the needs of adult-onset skaters in mind. Yes I am slow, and I am scared of falling, but I LOVE skating and no one can say that I don't try!

Yes, not every adult wants to (or can) go to AN, for a variety of reasons. I hope 'kid' club comps don't start eliminating adult events. At the same time, though, people need to support them. Several club comps in my area used to attract good numbers of adults (well, enough so that not everyone got a medal, lol) but they aren't attracting the adult entrants they used to. I hear a lot of adult skaters saying that they only want to support all-adult comps, and in my area, there are several opportunities for that, but it would also be nice to have additional options, esp if one of the adult comps doesn't work out timewise.

For someone like me who doesn't plan on going to AN in the foreseeable future, it would be nice to have some summer comp opportunities, but adults that have just been to AN are still recovering from their past season so aren't ready to compete yet. So comps don't get enough entrants in the adult events to have a comp, and then stop offering adult events altogether.

Right now, though, the economy is probably having a large affect on comp numbers, both adult and kid. It looks like AN numbers are down a bit this year. I suspect it's going to be a tough summer for clubs hosting comps. The fact that entry fees (for both IJS and 6.0 events) have gone up across the board doesn't make it easier.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!