Hi Daisies,

Where did you get this information from? Yes, in order to achieve a Level 2 in a step sequence, a skater does need four types of turns and two types of steps, but where did you read that they need to execute each one twice? What do you mean by each one twice? Twice in the footwork sequence, or do you mean something, such as two instead of one turn in each twizzle? Please clarify, or let me know where you read this.

Thanks,
Lovepairs

Oh, about Figures: they actually were televised during competitions, but not in their entirety. Also when figures were required there was plenty of patch ice available. It's when they were abolished that patch ice began vanishing. Also, IMHO, having studied both, there is not a huge difference in difficulty between figures and moves when "mastered," both are equally hard to "master." I think why some people think figures were harder than MIF is because they were "literally scrutinized" by the judges, and the tracings were taken into account. There is a perception that MIF aren't as hard, because there is distance between the judges and your tracings, and the perception is that there is a little bit more wiggle room, but that's not really the case when both are "mastered."

I would be in favor of making a L2 footwork sequence worth in between a L2 and L3 spiral, a L3 footwork sequence between a L3 and L4 spiral and a L4 footwork sequence (that we have seen very few of total at the elite levels) equal to whatever it's currently worth + 1/2 the difference between what a "L5" spiral sequence would be worth and it's current value. It would give people an incentive to really put the work to pull up the value instead of getting a L1 or L2 on it and letting spirals and spins pull up the TES mark, just like ladies are working on 3A and 3/3 and men are working to get the quads consistent. I don't like relaxing the current requirements for footwork to get higher levels, skaters SHOULD be able to do those things, I just think it should be equal to the energy expended on it.

By twice, she means 2 of each type of turn/step you put in the footwork, not a double twizzle or double three. They don't have to be the same edge/foot/direction, there just needs to be 2. It's in the ISU Communication 1445 and in one of the US Figure Skating communications as well. It's not well written (actually it reads as if it was written by someone in an ESL course) but it's there.

Check out the Singles Level of Difficulty (from ISU Communication 1459):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...8-S-levels.pdf

The bulletins for step sequences are:
1) Variety (complexity for Level 4) of turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
2) Rotations (turns, steps) in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction)
3) Modest (full for Level 4) use of upper body movement
4) Quick changes of rotational direction executed by rockers and/or counters, twizzles and/or quick rotational toe steps immediately following each other

Listed under Clarifications on page 2:
Turns: three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
Steps: running steps, toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, cross-rolls.

Various types of turns and steps must be balanced in their distribution throughout the sequence.

Variety: Must include at least 4 different types of turns and 2 different types of steps. Each of these types of turns and steps must be executed at least twice during the sequence.

Complexity: Must include at least 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps all executed at least once in both directions.

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Spirals are much easier to learn and to do than Chactows, Brackets, Rockers, Counters and Loops...and that's all I have to say about that...been there done it.

Oh, so you mean two counters, perhaps one forward inside and one forward outside, and for twizzles, perhaps one back outside and one forward inside, and that all of this is independent of the number of rotation, let's say, in the twizzles. Okay, I see what you mean then, because no where is there a mention of number of rotations as there is with spins. Or, if there is number of required rotation in footwork elements in print, please tell me where I can read this.

Speak for yourself. I am spiral-lexic. I think I am about the only Gold Lady going for the footwork credit over the spiral credit this year. My footwork was put together by a TS and was completed in 25 minutes of lesson time from a layout standpoint (what steps in what order to achieve the variety requirement). I was able to do it decently after only a few sessions when the TS started adding arms and modest body movement on the steps. It got good reviews after competing only a month after learning it and it's gotten better reviews since. If we were going for the spiral credit, we'd still be debating and working on it six months later instead of polishing it.

My suggestion is, for the energy expended, it should be worth more than it's equivalent spirals. That was my point in my post - it should be worth an in between number. So, L2 spiral sequence is worth 2.3 and a L3 spiral sequence is worth 3.1. A L2 step sequence should be worth 2.7 points. A L4 spiral is worth 3.4. A L3 step seqence should be worth 3.25 and a L4 step sequence should be worth >3.4 based on energy spend.

Correct. BUT for the rotational feature, the rotations must be a minimum of 360 degrees. My footwork has a back inside loop, a forward outside loop, a forward inside 3, a back outside 3, RFI twizzle, LFI double twizzle, a RFO counter, a LFO counter, LBO rocker, RBI rocker, two mohawks, two chasses, one set of toe turns (not in that order of course, but that's how we checked off the requirement on paper)

It's actually more energy than you would think, now that you pretty much need to be pulling a leg up over your head most of the time and that takes a lot more out of the core muscles (especially if you aren't that flexible and really have to push/pull hard like I do). My spiral sequence used to give me a chance to breathe, but now I find that I hold my breath for 6-8 seconds at a time because if I lose the tension in my core I'll do a face plant. On the other hand, the new spiral sequence limits also mean spiral sequences can't take more than about 20 seconds, so I think it's more a matter of points per second than exertion. The intricacy of footwork means that anything level 2 or higher is probably going to take more than 20 seconds of program time, which could be a basis for increasing its value.

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Wow. As someone who passed her Junior MIF, Senior MIF and 3rd figure test in 2007, I can say that I completely disagree. Figures are much harder. There's a LOT more wiggle room when the tracings aren't being scrutinized for clean turns and edges.

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Thank you to those of you who clarified what I said about the step-sequence requirement of performing each turn and step twice. To answer lovepairs' question, there is no requirement on revolutions of a twizzle, although by definition a twizzle is a full 360 degrees. And techskater is correct about the rotational requirement in bulletin #2.

Notice in 1445 that the "variety of turns/steps" bulletin is "compulsory" -- meaning, a skater must fulfill that bulletin in order to get credit for any other bulletins. (And in order to get an L2, they have to have not only that bulletin but one other as well.)

Anyway, that was essentially my entire point in this whole thing -- skaters need to learn as many types of turns and steps as possible to be able to keep up with the new world order of skating. And that's why I am all for the proposal as it stands now. Either way, it's cool it has sparked so much conversation!

I have to agree with manleywoman on this -- big time. Figures are way -- WAY -- harder. Seriously.

I don't understand how you can say people "think" figures are harder because they are "literally scrutinized." I don't think it, I know it. Like manleywoman, I have done both. I passed the Senior MIF at age 29 and the 8th figure test at age 36. The "literally scrutinized" part is kinda the essence of why they are harder, so to dismiss that fact is difficult for me to comprehend.

In figures, your edges and turns must be clean, and they must be traced. And in later figure tests (5th and up), skaters have to get around two complete circles on one foot -- without any extra pushes -- and perform turns within, make those turns clean, and trace them. How exactly is that on even par with MIF? Skaters can get away with a lot in MIF because of the speed involved in each move (you get seven introductory steps, for goodness sake!) and the lack of scrutiny of the actual print on the ice.

Do you know how hard it is to lay down your first tracing of a figure WRONG and then have use your second tracing to correct it? The judges then get to look at it, see your glaring error and hope that you corrected it, well, correctly -- in one shot. Oh, and did I mention your turns on both circles have to be lined up with each other? And the sizes of your circles have to be even, and the sides of them -- both sides -- have to be lined up? And God forbid you cross your tracings in your center, or toe push, or create any snow or scrapes in your edges or turns.

In MIF, if you mess up your first, say, counter, guess what? You get the whole length of the arena to do, like, four more of them without the reminder to the judges that you screwed up! Your turns don't have to be lined up on a long axis -- it would be nice if they were, but if you're off by a bit, no one will really notice. Got a spoon at the top of your bracket? So what! No one will see it! Got bunny ears at the top of your bracket? Too bad! No one will see it! (Kudos to those of you who know what spoons and bunny ears are!)

Anyway, major wiggle room.

I'm not saying MIF aren't hard. They are. But figures are miles harder. Miles.

Here, here, Daisies! We don't call them spoons, we call them waves, but same thing!! LOL!

We were working on the inner counters on my lesson this morning, and my coach goes out on the ice and looks down at the print and says, nope - look you got a BIG flat coming out of the first counter. Go skate them again. Guess what - Figures Gold medallist! Ha!

With all due respect, I don't think it's your (or anyone's) business to judge if someone 'moves up too soon', and I don't think it should be the responsibility and function of the USFSA to manipulate the rate at which skaters move up. That's a decision made by the skaters and their families and coaches.

And even if a skater gets held back by harder MIF, that doesn't mean they're not going to work on more advanced freestyle skills, to be ready when they do move up. I think we can all agree that different coaches have different philosophies and when it's best to start working on certain jumps and spins, etc. There are always going to be kids who for whatever reason work on skills they may not quite be ready for (based on their mastery of prerequisite skills). How many of us on this board have seen Pre-Prelim and Prelim skaters trying to do Biellmans and change-edge spins (and I mean in their comp programs, not just practice) b/c their coaches want to get them ready for IJS, and the kids don't even have good basic spinning skills? How many have seen kids working on doubles when they don't even have their axel consistent?

I have a problem with the assumption that a 9 or 10-year-old passing Novice MIF is a sign that standards are too lenient. Some kids are just really good at MIF. Some kids are just very good at skating. The girl who won Int Ladies at JN this year (who also won Juv last year) is 10. I don't know what level she is in MIF, but she's obviously gotten through at least Intermediate. Now, I'm not in favor of 14-year-old Nat'l (Senior) champions and generally I'm not a big fan of 'baby ballerinas', but I don't deny that some kids pick up the technical skills really quickly. IMO, IJS makes it easier for younger kids to win titles b/c it doesn't really value maturity, power, expression, etc, that older skaters have an advantage in (and makes programs more interesting). Judging programs has become an exercise in adding up the elements points, and I think that's one of the reasons a lot of casual fans have lost interest.

But remember, even in figures, you had instances of very young kids passing the high-level tests. I think I read that Priscilla Hill passed her 8th figure test when she was 9, or 10, or something like that.

Oh, and as far as judges not seeing skid marks or wiggles in turns, when I tested Silver MIF a few months ago, my judges sure did, from the opposite side of the ice. A judge who is in her 70s pointed out that some of my BO 3's were turned off the wrong edge (after my coach dissected my 3-turns at my next lesson, she determined that I was changing my edge at the last minute before the turn - the shape of the lobes looked fine but when you bent down to look at the tracing, you could see it). I'm not saying figures weren't harder (I agree, they were), but I don't think skaters get a free pass on MIF tests. And there are plenty of judges out there that see a mistake on 1 counter (or other turn or step) and either require a reskate or fail the move, and possibly the test, esp on Novice and up.

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I'm in Canada but this is ISU and it applies to everyone. This is how our rink's tech specialists read it. In order to get at least a level 1, meaning that your step sequence even is counted, you need 4 varieties of turns. Otherwise, if you don't have 4 turns, each done twice, it's a big fat zero and zero points. I don't know anyone doing step sequences other than the guys, all the girls are busy pulling their legs over their heads and pumping up their spiral sequences.

I can see why USFSA has introduced twizzles at an early level. It's good for the potential of ice dancers and synchro and also to start with a variety of turns early. It's been interesting reading this thread.
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I wasn't saying all 10 year olds don't deserve to pass their higher level MIF test, there just seem to be more and more younger kids passing high level tests. For the most part, I don't see the "performance" aspect from many of the younger senior test skaters (9, 10, 11) that is expected from those that are 13, 14, 15+.

Even though I know it's going to make it harder for me to finish out and attain my Gold medal in moves, I think the changes are beneficial for the changes in skating.

I'm sorry, but you seemed to have missed my point. I won't restate it; it's all there. But that's OK, we can agree to disagree!

ITA.

I didn't say they didn't see skids in MIF tests -- I can sure see skids from across the rink when I judge, and I can see when a skater changes edge, and the skater will fail the move if those mistakes are present throughout -- I just said a skid was one of many things that are forbidden in figures, on top of the rest of the laundry list.

What I did say couldn't be seen in MIF from the railing, if you reread my post, were spoons and bunny ears. Spoons = bad. Bunny ears = good.

Wow, that's definitely stricter than the published ISU rules.

The ISU's 2007-2008 "First Aid for Technical Specialists" document clarifies that the variety feature is mandatory to get level 2 or higher, not mandatory for level 1. Here's the wording under the description of the level-raising features:

Variety: Must include at least 4 different types of turns and 2 different types of steps. Each of these types of turns and steps must be executed at least twice during the sequence. Variety is mandatory. If not existing, the step sequence is a Level 1

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I don't see that happening where I am. Yes, the kids often plow through the moves tests as quickly as they can, but they don't take the corresponding FS tests as soon as they can master each test's hardest element -- they wait to move up until they can do the elements that will make them competitive

Older kids may move up faster because they want to get to juvenile before they're 13 or to intermediate as soon as possible thereafter so they can compete at regionals even if they don't have all their double jumps. But the ones who are young and the ones who have reasonable hopes of good placements in qualifying competitions tend not to rush up to the next level until they get older or they actually do get those results.

And because of the penalties for underrotated jumps in the new judging system, I'm not seeing as many attempts at the harder jumps allowed at a given competition as I was a few years ago in the old system. Yeah, the kids are home working on the jumps (especially double axels, which often take several years to master), and they did that when they had to pass figure tests as well, but they no longer put the jumps in their programs if they're just "almost" there, and so they're less likely to overtrain them than they would a few years ago. That's more an effect of the new judging system than of the difficulty, or lack thereof, in the MITF tests.

Both recently in one region and a decade ago when I lived and skated in a different region in a different section, I see preliminary skaters working on intermediate MITF or intermediate skaters working on senior MITF. Not all of them, of course, but it's not at all uncommon.

Trends may be different in your area.

Ellyn
It happens at my rink now. Intermediate kids worling on senior MIF certainly isn't a bad thing! Learning the MIF disciplines is a great 'freebee' for any kid or adult skater that wants to get a little advantage here or there. It makes the final product much easier on the eye for that respective level!

Well, here's something we can agree on!

This is how it is in my area too. And a lot of them, when they hit 18 and senior year in high school, decide to stop competing. So they take their final FS tests to just complete the tests. I've seen a lot of effortless Senior FS tests here, since the girls were easily landing a few triples at their last Regionals attempt, and they only need 2lutz for the Senior FS test.

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I too agree -- figures were a lot harder than moves! I hated those judges coming out on the ice in their little clip-on cleats and big Russian hats, peering down at your measly little scratches over their reading glasses! OOh the image makes my bones shiver even now!

Figures are so much harder than field moves, starting over again doing both at the same time, I am shocked at how much more strength and control it takes to do basic figures correctly. The lower field moves tests are much easier by comparison. Moves APBFM & ABFM versus pre-1st figure test.

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Wow. That's kind of cool.

I took my Prel Figures back in 1986 and no one had cleats. They all wore long fur coats though - coaches and judges alike. (Outdoor rink)

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