duplicate post

I am one of the skaters who may or may not benefit from the new masters division. I passed my intermediate FS when I was 19. At that point adult skating was just coming into play, and the rules were that you had to compete masters if you passed your novice FS. Barring the fact that I can't do a double double combination, I made a conscious decision to not take that test to be able to stay at the "gold" level. The rules changed a few years later and I have skated masters at adult competitions.

Since I am at the "low" level of masters, that is where I generally place at competitions. That is fine since I am really just trying to improve my own skating - goal to not get "Mrs. Dash" on my Axel in IJS!!! I do think there are people at the gold level who could compete with the champ masters people who have passed jr/sr FS, but I think it is daunting for some of them. I hope this new level will allow for the big "back-up" in some groups of gold and silver to be relieved.

I don't think this will make a ton of new adults come out of the woodwork to compete, but only time will tell. Someone else said that the adults seem to be skating much closer to the test level than kids do. I totally agree with that given that the juvenile kids are really doing all doubles to be competitive and there are none on that test. If the jump "restrictions" are used as guidelines, then the skaters should be on a more level playing field - at least in theory - even though others have pointed out that most of the high-placing gold skaters at AN didn't have any doubles in their programs. They did, however, have some awesome skating skills.

OK, back to lurking. I think the jet lag from coming back from Europe is making me ramble.....

Pedonskates

I'm not sure what USFSA could do to 1) make it affordable for beginning skaters (or any skaters) to skate. How could they possibly control what rinks are charging for ice time or group lessons or what coaches charge for private lessons? Those are the largest expenses that any skater faces.

They might have some influence what it costs to enter a competition. But again, it's local clubs that set the entry fees and for most clubs that's a significant part of their income. On the other hand, for skaters coming from out of town the cost of entry fees is minimal compared to the costs for transportation, hotels, and bringing a coach if they do so.

So the focus would need to be more to 2) encourage beginning skaters to move up into the fold and for the existing ones to move up. This thread has already discussed one change that should encourage existing gold and silver skaters to move up.

So what would be good ways to encourage beginning skaters to join the USFSA and to enter competitions?

Maybe encourage clubs that include Basic Skills events in their club competitions or that hold Basic Skills competitions explicitly to include adult events in those competitions? And encourage the few adult club competitions that exist to offer Basic Skills or no-test events? And then make sure those opportunities get publicized to coaches who teach adult beginners . . . even at rinks where the group lessons use the ISI program?

What else?

I think there's a lack of continuity between LTS classes (no matter what format or level) and the first beyond-basics tests. It might help to have USFS/PSA encourage rinks/coaches to have their students take those first Pre-Pre or Pre-Bronze tests at the conclusion of classes. ISI does this at most rinks.

Once beginners get a taste of accomplishment by passing those tests, they often realize this is something they cando. Also many coaches still don't encourage most adult students to test.. so there is often a gap there. When I've gone to public sessions (not very often, I admit) I've talked with adults who are there with kids or to cool off and they have NO idea there is a complete adult testing/competition structure. They say things like "I wish I could perform, but I didn't skate as a kid, so it's too late now." And I launch into my whole spiel about how adults can skate/compete/test no matter what their age.

I looked through the RFA's and did not see a specific reason given for the new WBP requirements(limitations). I do plan to get on the ball here and suggest that The Adult committee come up with a Mission Statement so that we will have a foundation for these frequent rule changes.

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

Will someone wishing to compete in masters int/novice be required to have intermediate free? I thought previously you could choose to compete masters int/novice if you wanted to as long as you passed your adult gold free.

Or if intermediate is required, will someone with gold free be able to take the intermediate free (provided they have the mif test)?

Just trying to plan ahead. I want to test my silver free soon, but if they're accepting standard tests now I'm contemplating just doing prelim and pre-juv at the next session instead (have pre-pre from when I was like 8 yrs old) in the event I ever am able to get up to intermediate. Wishful thinking, especially after the way I skated yesterday, but you never know. I'd rather just do the standard tests now than having to backtrack more later on and spend more $$ and take more time off work for testing. I know you need the standard MIF tests for the standard free tests, but that doesn't really apply in my situation since I'm testing junior soon.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

To compete at AN, you have to have passed the test for the level - no skating up. If you wanted to compete Masters at non-qual/club comps, then all you need is Gold FS.

I'm pretty sure you can take Intermediate FS after passing Gold FS (and Int MIF). I guess you could do it either way, since you have the standard track MIF tests - test standard track up to Int, or test adult track through Gold and then take Int. Just be careful if you're going to use your Silver program to test Pre-Juv b/c the elements are a little different.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

As a club competition chair, no it's not a significant part of our income, we make a little money but...ice is very expensive to buy for the competition and the price of flying in judges and putting them up isn't cheap either, so no there's not much you can do about competition prices.

j

You make it sound as thought the Adult Skating Committee just makes changes on a whim -- and as though the ASC is the only one making frequent rule changes. Not so. The Competitions Committee, the Tests Committee, the Dance Committee, the Pairs Committee ... they all make frequent changes to adapt to the needs of their constituencies. That in itself is a mission statement, because you can't just remain static all the time.

BTW, the rationale for the Masters changes was included in the Request For Action presented to the Board of Directors before Governing Council. The Board then approved the changes. The Governing Council then approved the Board's action. So this didn't all occur in a vacuum. There were several layers of approval that the proposals had to go through. Sure, some people aren't going to like the changes, but the committee has to do what's best for the most people. As the saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time!

I am not trying to make it sound that way. I know great thought goes into any change in rule or policy. I do think,however, a written mission statement would be helpful as a guide for everyone...not just the committee.

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

If I tested pre-juv I'd go by what the rulebook says for that test. I couldn't use my normal silver program to test silver either, it would need watered down since it doesn't have the requirements (have to take out a combo spin and change it to a plain camel and change my loop loop to a loop, and swap my single lutz for a flip).

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

There are two ways you can pass your Intermediate FS test, assuming you have already passed Intermediate MIF:
(1) Standard track: Take the Preliminary, Pre-Juvenile and Juvenile FS Tests, then take the Intermediate FS test.
(2) Adult track to standard track: Take the Adult Silver and Adult Gold FS tests, then take the Intermediate FS test (sounds like you're already at Bronze?)

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Yes.

I don't think adult FS tests cross over to the standard track in any other case, though - you can't take Silver FS instead of PreJuv FS, and then take Juv FS.

I'm just doing both tracks. I passed Juvenile last summer, and am taking Gold on Monday. That's the end of testing FS for a while! But now it's great to know I have an option to test Intermediate and have a place to compete that's to my level!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Hey Stormy,

I agree with what you said earlier about the double loop. That's my only sort-of consistent double at the moment, and I won't be able to use it. On the other hand, I don't have to compete against people doing double-double combos, either. So it's a mixed bag.

I think the greatest concern, far more than WBP, is the IJS system for adults. It's turning skaters who are pretty conservative anyway (we don't want to get hurt) into skaters who won't try anything in a program at all. I'm impressed that skaters can win a Gold event without an axel or doubles, or without a combination spin, but is this reality really going to attract more people into the sport and keep them coming back? Is there a way to encourage adult skaters to improve the quality of their overall skating skills without discouraging them from doing more difficult jumps and spins?

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"Gravity is a harsh mistress." -- The Tick

I don't know about IJS stopping adult skaters from moving to Champ Gold and beyond in the US. But here in Canada we adult skaters love CPC (which is the same as your US IJS) because we get to see how we are judged, what we can do well under pressure and what we need to fix. CPC isn't stopping adults from competing here in Canada. CPC is making us Canadian adult skaters excited to compete at Nationals. We actually wish that CPC were used for judging at all our adult competitions. Also, you get to see your track record; what your score was last, incentive to improve and beat your last personal best. So you don't win a medal everytime you compete. You can feel like a winner when you see that you've beaten your personal best from the time before.

I think if the USFSA has IJS for Championship Gold and Championship Masters, they should have IJS for all the levels that compete at the Adult National USFSA Championships. And besides, once you get to the ISU Adult Competition, you are marked with COP anyway. Why not let the Adult Bronze, Adult Silver and non-championship Adult Gold be marked with IJS so that they can have a chance at understanding what is needed for ISU competitions?

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"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

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My beef with using IJS for Adults is that they ONLY use it at Nationals. What's the point? They don't use it at local comps for Gold and Masters, they don't use it at Sectionals. You can get through Sectionals with cheats on doubles, but then of course you get dinged at Nationals. You can't see improvement on scores only being judged with that system one time.

There was a discussion a while back about why IJS isn't used at all the levels...there's a lot of reasons. Expense and time is a HUGE factor.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

While it may be possible for someone to win a local Gold event or maybe the Gold V age class at AN without an axel, I don't think I've seen that happen in any other events at AN since they started using IJS. I also don't think IJS is necessarily making people more cautious; it's just discouraging them from attempting jumps that they can't fully rotate (and you still see underrotated doubles in Gold anyway).

Also, when you see Gold skaters being conservative, there are often reasons for that other than IJS. For example, the skater who won Gold III Ladies at AN this year only did an axel (no doubles) but that's not because of IJS; it's because double jumps aggravate an injury she has. She also didn't do any combination spins, but that was something that actually *hurt* her technical score under IJS. She only won because of her very high PCS score (a.k.a., presentation mark), which means the judges liked her overall skating and probably would have placed her first had the competition been judged on 6.0.

Also, why attempt a double jump that you know you have a 75% chance of under-rotating or falling on, whether it's IJS or 6.0? At least under IJS you get credit for fully rotating a jump even if the landing isn't perfect. For example, last year I had a double salchow in my program because I was landing it fully rotated, even though I was stepping out of it as soon as I landed. I kept it in because a double salchow with a step-out (-GOE) was still worth more than a cleanly landed axel. This year I was having trouble landing it fully rotated without falling, so it was in my best interest to just do an axel instead. I don't think that would have been any different under 6.0.

I agree that double toeloop attempts have dropped off sharply, and that is because last year, almost every double toeloop (and many singles) got downgraded for pre-rotation. So this year, a lot of Gold skaters have been busy cleaning up their double toe technique before putting that jump back in their programs. Yeah, it's a little weird not seeing double toes in Gold, but I also wouldn't want to be allowed to get away with a double toe that wouldn't count as a double toe. I think that would be condescending to us just because we're adults.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Grand Rapids Open is using IJS for Gold and Masters for the first time this year at the end of this month. It was requested by the competitors and everyone was mailed to make sure they were OK with it. It helps that the president of the club is an adult skater herself.

My home club competition is willing to use IJS if we are willing to turn out in larger numbers than 2 per group in September. The Greater Chicagoland Fall Invitational in Northbrook, IL.

A competition in Cincinnati offered IJS in March for Gold and Masters.

At Mids last year, critiques under IJS were offered.

I would say if you enter a local competition and you want to skate under IJS at Gold or Masters, ASK the organizer if they will do it. The worst thing that can happen is you will be told no.

I agree with Stormy that it's very unfortunate that all 3 sections can't afford to use IJS for scoring Adult Sectionals. I'm doing 4 local USFSA non-qualifying competitions this year, all within a 2-3 hour drive from home, and they are all using IJS for Adult Gold. 3 different clubs are hosting these 4 competitions.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

And in my neck of the woods, the Cherry Blossom Invitational used IJS this year for adult events. The only adult level they ended up having (due to number of entrants) was Silver, and they used IJS even though Silver isn't judged with IJS at AN. Cherry Blossom is actually a 'high-test' comp, meaning Juv and up, which means all of the 'kid' levels get judged with IJS, so I guess this year they decided to use it for the adult events, too. Last year, the only adult level they ended up having was Bronze, and they did not use IJS (the only event to have 6.0) but perhaps they decided this year that it was easiest to just use IJS across the board.

Does anyone here who might be in the know, know whether they plan to use IJS for all adult events at Cherry Blossom going forward, or was using it this year for Silver actually a mistake? I'm considering entering next year (which would require me to get a program ) b/c I'm kind of curious as to how I'd score in IJS (hopefully, my TES will not be negative ) and I don't have a chance to be judged with IJS at AN, since I'm Bronze, and will likely be Bronze for life.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

One way would be to publicize BEGINNING adult skaters more, by showing lower-level adult skaters in publicity documents, such as on USFS websites, posters, etc. the same way they do with little kids. Much of the adult publicity seems to be geared towards adults at a high level, which can be discouraging for lower-level adults. I can't tell you the number of my younger students' parents who tell me they would love to skate but just can't seem to bring themselves to do it for fear of embarrassing or injuring themselves.

Another way might be to change the levels around a little bit so there's not such a huge gap between Pre-Bronze and Bronze Freestyle. At Pre-Bronze, you do not need to have even ONE single jump--two half-revolution jumps will get you through the test (the last Pre-Bronze adult test I saw was passed with a half-flip and a waltz jump). At the Bronze level, you need a toe loop, a salchow, and another single, plus a combination jump of a waltz-toe plus scratch, sit, and backspins.

An in-between level, possibly with two spins other than a two foot spin, any two single jumps, plus a spiral sequence and footwork, might keep skaters who actually begin as adults going rather than getting discouraged. It takes a looooong time to learn this stuff when you start with a body that's already set in its ways! Add in the long recovery times for injuries that adults require (two of my adult skating friends have broken shoulders, wrists, what have you over the past year) and an adult-onset skater could easily be looking at doing the Silver Free in a walker!!!

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

You guys are lucky your local comps will use IJS...none in the New England region do for adults! I'm planning to do the Cranberry Open in August, I'll defintiely ask if they'll use IJS for Gold...you're right, it can't hurt to ask!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

It would be great if Adult Sectionals could use IJS, but as already said, expense is the issue. There is always more than meets the eye. Even if it is done by paper methond, there is expense of the ice time (because IJS takes longer) and mostly the expense of the officials. IJS requires a whole different panel....a tech specialist, controller and caller. Not every judge is qualified to be a caller, controller or specialist. So that means that the expense comes in to fly these people in and house them. Hopefully, there will be more and more people trained to be in these positions around the U.S. At present, a one/one and a half day adult comp. cannot afford that type of expense unless they are lucky enough to have those people in close proximity. There were IJS critiques at Adult Mids last year. Hopefully, all the adult sectionals will at least be able to offer that.

On the other side of the coin, there really is not a good reason that Adult
Gold and Masters can't be judged under IJS at an already existing competition that is offering IJS to other levels.

If anyone is interested, the Albert Viviani Comp. in Wyandotte, MI is offering IJS for Gold and Masters. The dates are September 7, 8, 9.

Unfortunately, Albert Viviani is the same weekend as Greater Chicagoland (my home club's comp), otherwise I'd come out.