i hope someone can clarify this, one coach told me on the RBO pick with left toe , jump and turn landing on RBO ok now another coach told on the RBO pick with toe, let the RBO glide and meet up diagonally with left toe pick so the R foot in slightly crossed in front of the left, then with weight on left toe pick up the right foot while turned 1/4 of turn and jump then landing on RBO.the second coach told me what I was doing originally was a toe waltz, but I wasn't cheating by turning I was really jumping from face forward.

what do you think of these two? i was doing the first variation for a while with consistency now I feel like imlearning the toe loop all over again.

Well whatever coach said you are doing a toewalz, must mean you are prerotating too much. The toe loop is not actually a full rotation jump, and that slightly cheated 1/4 of a rotation is how its suppsoed to be. The problem is if you prerotate on the toepick so much that you are facing forward as you jump. It is ok if you are slightly to the side as you go in to the jump.

Yes, there are two correct ways of taking off on a toeloop, so neither of those is wrong. Like the other poster said, you just need to make sure you don't turn to face forward before leaving the ice. Do this self-check whenever you do this jump: As you feel your pick go into the ice, are you still facing the direction you came from? Is your left arm still completely in front of you with your right shoulder still back? Okay, now push up off the toe and leave the ice, turning your hips as you leave the ice, and only letting your head turn to the left after your hips have started turning.

Also, are you taking off from a true outside edge, or does your foot go to an inside edge? Regardless of whether you are prerotating, if you are taking off from an inside edge (or an inside-ish edge), that's not the correct takeoff edge. Usually that problem would come from picking too far on the outside of the circle described by your takeoff foot. (So for a CCW skater, picking at, say 8 o'clock would be too far to the outside of the circle and you'd be likely to take off the wrong edge.)

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I 'relearned' the toe loop (cherry flip) when I went onto doubles. I hate the way that they teach the 'baby' way then change it all again ... one of my beefs about skating!

The way I was taught it (finally) was to pick, draw back with the skating foot still on the ice until your feet are together and crossed while jumping up and around. It's difficult to explain on here because you have to take your body back as well as your foot but I was definitely not taught to pre-rotate by half a turn with either my arms, body or legs (though I did give it a good go ).

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Ironically enough, it's the second coach that is teaching you to do a toe waltz- the first coach is telling you the right way to do it. That second description IS a toe waltz, and that first description is a toe loop. Also? Not only does that second coach have bad technique to spread around, they also don't know what they're talking about. Jumping on a pick jump by facing forward IS cheating the jump. The very definition. It can also be called pre-rotating, but that's still a cheat.

Hmmm, the way I read it, it sounds like the second coach is more correct, except for the part about not picking up your skating foot until you turn around. It sounds like what the first coach is saying is you keep your skating foot (RBO) on the ice and jump off of both feet - that's wrong. My current coach, who is fixing my toe waltz that I didn't know I had, gave me the same instructions as coach 2 - bring RBO toward picking foot - but then lift the skating foot off the ice and then turn around and kick the free leg through as you jump. My understanding is the toe loop is pre-rotated, b/c you kick your free leg through as you turn on your toe pick to face forward - just like a waltz jump. I've been told that the waltz, toe, and sal are basically the same jump in the air - in other words, not a full rev, unlike the loop, flip, and lutz, which are.

On the toeloop, you do a 1/4 turn on the toe as you take off, so if you pick with your left toe, you will be taking off facing to your left, not doing 1/2 turn on the toe and taking off facing the direction of the jump. If done correctly, it's really a 3/4 turn jump.

My daughters coach taught her the first time that way.Easier than having to relearn it !!

By this description, it sounds like you end up with the right leg crossed in front of the left. On all doubles, I thought you wanted the left leg crossed in front of the right. What am I missing?

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There are two correct ways to do a toeloop. The one she's describing was more popular in the past than it is today. In this style, the take off is like a loop jump with a toe assist (hence the name). You reach back with your left toe, pull yourself back so your feet come together, then turn your right hip in and take off from both feet. So you do more of a 2-footed backward takeoff and get over the landing hip right away rather than jumping up off the picking toe, turning forward as you leave the ice, then getting over the right hip in the air.

Thanks for all the responses...nonetheless I'm not getting a clear consensus which way is correct or as doubltoe said both are. I tried the second way and I keep sliding on my toe..I just can't seem to pick it correctly in addition while picking and then sliding the RBO I'm all confused where my weight should be....more on toe or evenly distributed. next question in a post mentioned I think it was doubletoe on the latest post that one is jumping off 2 feet I thought it was the left with kicking through the right??

I would love to someday do doubles so for now which method should I stick with??

Thank you! and thank you doubletoe for all your posts not just on this thread but on others too!
happy skating

Not true- waltz is a half turn, salchow and loop are both a little less than 3/4 turns (whoever told you a loop is a full revolution jump must be on crack, it'd be physically impossible). Toe loop is somewhere between those two. You definitely shouldn't be facing forward as you take off. I mean, if you are trying to get rid of a toe waltz and your coach tells you a toe loop and a waltz jump are the same in the air, then you're not trying to get rid of the toe waltz. The very definition of toe waltz is to set up like a toe loop and jump as a waltz...aka from forward. The person who said above me that you should be somewhere to your left while jumping is correct, though you should still be facing MAINLY backwards, not completely to the left. The only reason you should be a little to your left is to allow the hip to pass through as you jump so you can kick up. The only true full revolution jumps are the lutz and the flip. But a toe loop isn't a half revolution jump, if it is, it's wrong.

I didn't understand that the original poster said the first coach told her to jump off of two feet, but yes that is wrong also. The weight should be transferred to the picking foot...but what I understood is that the coach wants her to pass her picking foot with her skating foot before leaving the ice. That's wrong wrong wrong.

So many people teach the toe loop wrong. It's sort of impossible to say there is ONE way to do any one jump. But a lot of the descriptions here sound incorrect. In the future when you work up to doubles, it's pretty easy to tell if you're toe-axeling it or not. Toe waltz is harder to detect.

OK, I guess I didn't describe what I meant clearly. The waltz-toe-sal similarity that has been explained to me is that they all involve kicking through with your right leg (CCW) as you take off from your left (yes, I realize the setup and takeoff is different for each). What I meant about the toe loop is that I was told to pull the right foot toward the left upon picking, pick up the right foot before jumping (so no takeoff from 2 feet like I had sort of been doing) and begin to turn to the left and then kick the leg through as I jump (or something like that, I guess I'm not great at explaining ). It's the way doubletoe described it.

I think the person who told me the loop, flip, and lutz are similar jumps was referring to your needing to take off and land with your weight on the right side (as opposed to the waltz, toe, and sal where your weight shifts from left to right).

CORRECTION:
A Loop Jump is a FULL ROTATION jump as defined by both the ISI and the USFSA. The takeoff is from a back outside edge and the landing is on the same back outside edge. The use of a toe pick "scratch" for takeoff shouldn't take a 1/4 rotation off the jump. This is a different jump from a Toe Loop, which uses a toepick takeoff.

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The Flip, Loop, and Lutz are all considered the more difficult full-rotation jumps so they get grouped together often, which is possibly what the person meant when speaking to Debbie_S.

I PERSONALLY don't care for the "on crack" reference. Crack is a hideous blight on our society that wastes young lives at an astounding rate. It's not a joking matter, as you implied. If you don't agree with someone (who, BTW, isn't even on this Board) please just say so, don't say that they're taking drugs.

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Sorry, but I disagree with this as well. I agree the hook should definitely take less than 1/4 of the jump, but on a loop there's no way to be in there air for exactly 360 degrees.

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I wasn't giving my opinion, I was stating a true, published fact. (No offense taken, BTW)

The ISU considers the Loop jump to be a full rotation with the same Base Scale of Values as a Flip jump. (0.5)
The Lutz, with its counter-rotational difficulties, is a tenth-point higher (0.6).

Again, the ISI and USFSA also recognize a Loop jump as a full rotation jump regardless of our board member's opinions.

If you disagree with the governing bodies of Figure Skating, you'll need to address their rules committees.

This one's more intriguing from a rules standpoint: half-loop

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Actually, I think you'll find it's 0.5 and 0.6 for a single loop, flip and lutz. The Salchow and toe-loop are 0.4 (which is why I keep telling my husband it's stupid to stress his knee for 0.1 of a mark! But he wants his loop jump back, so.....).

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You're correct Mrs. Redboots

The comma in the table of numbers didn't register with me. (That's why I usually copy-and-paste, too!)
I'll fix my post. Thanks.

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Hey, I accidentally did the half-loop one day!!!! Wow!

I hear skaters at my rink arguing all the time about jumps and whether or not they are full-rev jumps.

I'm just glad I'm not toe-waltzing anymore....

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I'd be very interested to know what the "published facts" are...something related to physics? Regardless of what the ISU or other governing bodies "consider" a loop jump, my own two eyes tell me differently.

Not trying to challenge you; I would honestly like to know more!

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I disagree, if you are doing it right, the loop should be very close to a full revolution, definately more than 3/4 of one. The toe loop is 3/4 of a revolution and you are saying its even less than that. If you're saying that, you can't possibly be doing it right.

Yeah...and the rulebook says a lutz is from an outside edge. Doesn't mean most people don't flutz, and so far I've never seen anyone lose a championship or fail a test over it. This is a dramatic example since a flutz is actually a technical flaw whereas pre-rotation isn't on edge jumps (except the axel) if it's at or under 1/4 turn, but what I'm saying is that just because the rulebook says something doesn't mean you can't successfully do your jumps and get rewarded for them if you don't abide by every single letter of it. In the end, it's just paper. What is on the ice is what really matters, and most of it is semantics. You're really just grasping away for something that isn't there with your reaction to my post. Here is why I feel that way:

I said the loop was a little less than 3/4 revolution. How much less did I mean? Would it even be possible to see that it's less than 3/4 with the naked eye? How slight of an extra cheat is it? You don't know. Yet I'm just being honest- no one gets around on edge jumps without some pre-rotation, the faster you go and more revolutions you go for, the more pre-rotation will naturally happen. The detail of "how much more than 1/4 would the cheat be.." is just like the lutz definition in the rulebook; everybody curves inward and flutzes a LITTLE, but sometimes it's so slight you don't see it- and the rulebook allows for a slight curve inward. The question is: HOW MUCH OF A CURVE? They don't tell you. It's all semantics, as I said. There's no need for a "red alert" because I said loops turn out to be less than 3/4 turn. It's true. Go to a coach who has a dartfish system or something, do a loop, have it analyzed, and see for yourself. Are you really counting how many degrees you're turning around in the air when you do loops? If not, how do you know how far around you've gone? You don't. There's a lot of gray area between 3/4 and 1/2. If you tell people a loop is a full rotation they'll think it's 360 degrees. Then they'll hurt themselves trying to jump off the edge without hooking it, and they'll never get the jump correctly at all. Much better to get them to realize that it ISN'T a full rotation, which it isn't. It's just "considered" one. But I didn't talk about what the USFS calls full revolution. I talked about the technical aspect of it, which is that you're in the air for 3/4 or less of a turn.

On another note, I don't know what you have against me by picking apart every post of mine you can possibly get your hands on that has some word you don't like in it (the crack reference, among many other comments you made about me and my posts, most of which your comments towards me are ruder than the initial one by me that irked you- just like this one, I didn't aim the crack reference to anyone in particular, and if that's how I talk then that's how I talk and since I'm not harrassing anyone on this board or even being vulgar I really don't see why I should alter my personality to fit yours) but you're the only reason I wanted to leave this board before. Thinking you might be mature enough to just lay off and ignore my posts if I'm not deliberately trying to be hurtful to posters on this board was the reason I came back, that and the fact that I like everybody else. But you haven't laid off, you just wait for me to post something you dislike and then you go right on it with it. You make it really unpleasant being here for me when I do nothing other than try to help people on this board with anything I might know or any insight I think I can provide (whether or not it works is another story but it's effort that counts). So I'm going to ask that you please keep your hatred of me and my posts at bay. This is how I talk and who I am (I didn't understand the media's uproar about Johnny Weir's crack references and I don't understand your uproar towards mine either- I'm not making fun of cokeheads or even saying crack is good, I'm saying someone has to be smoking it to think something as bizzare as whatever it is I quoted it with- it's an EXPRESSION, popular and widely used, that means no disrespect or harm to anyone, and if you can't see that then you really ought to lighten up, life isn't so serious), and if the person who I directed the post you're commenting on to is offended by it then they can take it up with me through PM and I'll apologize for putting them off, but usually you're the only one who's bothered. You can always put my posts on ignore if you don't like what I have to say. I'm guessing that since you're a mod, I can't put you on ignore which is why I'm suggesting it YOU do it so we stop this stupid back and forth that you keep instigating and that I've ignored on 5+ different threads since I've been back but enough is enough. I've had it up to here with you trying to tell me how I can or cannot express myself. I like the way I talk just fine, and I'm not changing it so if you dislike it please ignore it. Or, I guess you can ban me, if it makes you feel like a good mod. Gotta nip troublemakers like me in the bud and all. Cause that's reallllllly what I'm here for, I'm sure.

I've competed under COP a few times now and not only have never had my jumps downgraded, but have always had positive GOEs, so I think my coaches and the judges disagree with you. Not trying to sound as snotty as it's coming out, but it's been my experience with my own jumps. I think people think they rotate more than they really do. And that they jump higher than they really do. And spin faster. It's only natural. You have to slow motion it or dartfish it to really see what you are (and are not) doing, IMO.