That's what my secondary coach's suggested too! Great minds think alike!!!

Lack of flexibility in the men? Then you should see the adult men skaters from my neck of the woods! They're WAAAAY more flexible than the ladies here!!! In fact, until recently, the men at my rink were the ones doing the Y-spirals! (Now, we have 2-3 women doing Y-Spirals now, but one doesn't compete. And I'm trying to learn to do one myself and can do them off ice.)

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11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Good points.

I suppose the other option would be to keep the pre-preliminary and preliminary spiral moves where they are but to lower the passing standard for adults so that the free foot would just need to be, say, above the level of the skating knee rather than at least hip level.

The further I get into the test system, the more I agree with this. I'm quite impressed with how the skills flow logically in the Standard Moves and how they track quite well with the Dance levels. Adult track is not nearly as well thought out.

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

When/if I get to that test level in moves (or just before then), I'm planning on learning that missing move as well, for the exact reason that it will prepare me for that move. I already have enough trouble with checking after BO3s as it is, I figure I will need all the help I can get!

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Thus the reason why I'm now playing around with back power 3's from the Juv test. Been doing that on and off for a while... (Once in a blue moon, I get a lesson on it. It's usually when primary coach is bored and wants a change of pace.)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

We have had summer classes where our coach covers moves not covered in the adult track to get us comfortable with them and ready for whatever test we are working on and makes up moves-like exercises to help us. We worked the power threes on circles and she had us do a serpentine figure type of moves pattern (without the turns) for us to get us comfortable with layout of the counters and rockers. The people working on Bronze and Silver got to keep working on the serpentine move and those working on Gold or higher worked on the counters and rockers. She also had us patching threes, brackets, counters, rockers, forward and back double threes, etc to get us comfortable with the control of those various turns so when working on the moves, it's MUCH easier.

Personally, I think if you are struggling on the Silver test with the threes in the field, have your coach teach you to patch the threes. It will help your control and you'll get it figured out a lot quicker than fighting with the moves as patch will teach control.

What Techskater says rings very true, I am working on all the adult tests to rebuild my skills and muscles after such a long lapse of time not having those muscle be able to fire. Doing simple figure 8's forward and backwards is very helpful for learning how to check and doing the 8's with the 3 turn-1st figure test really reinforces holding edges keeping arms low and core control. I do figures first and moves second, the moves are much easier after figures.

I prefer the order of the standard tests but I think the adult test structure is okay. If adults were to do the standard the one change would need to be the preliminary spirals on the gold, and just offer an adult and masters version as they have in dance. A spiral has to come to hip height or it isn't really a spiral...maybe there could be some flexibility on the straightness of the leg and the arch of the back. As someone who has a new pivot point I am slightly aware of the spiral issue as with everything time and practice generally prevail. To this day I think taking the Novice move off the gold test was a bad idea, that move done at a juvenile standard requires that you have the idea of the move, it was one of the only move that tested quickness and it give you a good idea of what was to come. But that's just MHO.

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I have been saying this for years. My old coach couldn't figure out why I even wanted to test adult track. I always had to remind him it was for the free skate test. He used to make me pass standard first then I could go back and test adult moves. The progression of the standard moves are better thought out

The biggest thing i remember from Adult Silver moves was the blasted 8-step mohawk. I only wish that had been put in the test a little later in the order to let those legs warm up a little more. That was always my hardest challenge, and i stumbled right away. Thought i failed, but i did well enough on the others to pass. But it wasn't my first try on the test, though.

Persistance is the key.

I noticed the comment about Novice moves and how they introduce things that are brand new. In Canada there is the same phenomenon, aka "snakes and ladders". Kids hit the wall at the Junior Silver Skills test because they have to learn loops, all eight and do them down the ice with pulls inbetween. They've gone through preliminary, jr bronze, senior bronze without a hint of anything loopish and then BAM! I've always seen the loops taught as a patch exercise first, which is a good thing.

There is also a smaller leap between preliminary and junior bronze, one reason being because of senior bronze. Junior and Senior bronze share the same power circles exercise, it can be done two ways one for Jr and one for Sr, but coaches are now teaching the senior version at junior, and you're allowed to do the senior version at junior, I'm confusing you. This takes longer but then it makes senior bronze go faster as then you only need to learn two patterns, not three.

FYI, US Adult Silver = Canadian Junior Bronze, it's all back 3 turns.

Double3s,

I agree with Doubletoe. Every level to me feels like "What the heck?!?"
But I find as I practice more at each level it gets easier. I thought that Bronze moves were hard. When I started Silver moves Bronze was fun to practice for a change. I have passed the Silver MIF and I play with Gold moves. I am much more at ease with Silver than Gold, and don't mind Silver so much now.

I think that is the draw (and sometimes drawback) with this sport. It gives you so much to work on, and it can be hard at times...but then the rewards are like nothing I have ever experienced too.

Hang in there and keep at it. Before you know it you will be more at ease.

Strongly, strongly disagree. I do not believe in setting limitations for adult skaters in that way, especially regarding moves. We are no less mentally able to process these things than kids (and I might say in a way we might have more focus). As a group, I believe we are no less physically able to do it. I know too many gold level skaters in their late 40s and 50s to think otherwise.

The bar must be kept high for adults. Nobody is forcing anyone to go through the tests...

I'll test silver moves after bronze FS (unless I fail bronze FS in 2 weeks, then I'll work on both together). Everyone has their own issues with the test elements. For me - I can't do power pulls. At all. But, I've got the 8-step mohawk down in both directions. So that's an issue.

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Skate __
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(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

Well, I strongly, strongly disagree with that statement. Did you skate as a kid? When did those Gold skaters in their 40s and 50s start skating? How many hourse a week do you (and they) practice?

We've been through this countless times here on the forum, and I don't want to dredge up everything again, but.....skating as an adult is VERY different from skating as a kid. First, adults generally have less time to practice. Yes, there are exceptions, but for most adults, it's impossible to skate as much as kids - most of the kids I skate with skate 5 or 6 days a week, at least 2 sessions each day/evening. And they can skate more during the summers, b/c they're free during the day. Not too many adults can do that - for financial, family, work reasons, etc. That's why instituting the MIF requirement was so controversial - it wasn't that adult skaters didn't want to improve and didn't want challenges, but is it fair to expect adults to meet the same requirements as kids when adults have more limitations? Which leads me to....

Physical limitations - it's much harder to learn this sport as an adult than as a kid. We are taller, heavier, and less flexible and it's much harder to achieve the balance point on your blades for most skills. Yes, we can learn back 3's and such, but it takes much longer. And the older you are when you start skating, the harder it is. For most adults, there really is a ceiling - where it is varies, but it's there (kids have a ceiling too, but generally it's higher than those of adults). Perhaps if we could skate hours and hours a day, we might be able to raise the ceiling, but that's pretty much impossible given the issues I mentioned above.

I agree that if we're going to have tests, the standard should be appropriate for the level. Passing each test should mean something - to say you're a Gold level skater should mean that you've achieved a very high level of skill. But while I agree with having high expectations for adults, I do think that parts of some of the adult moves test are a bit off-kilter for reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post. Sometimes the sequence is a bit odd. I think it could be improved somewhat. And I think we need to recognize that adult skaters are different from kids, and that the adult testing track is different (in terms of moves chosen as well as passing standards) for that reason.

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This is a touchy subject. =-0

I agree that learning skills as an adult is challenging. However, I hate the idea that I'm limited because I'm an adult, because I don't believe this.

I didn't skate as a child and I am trying to do some novice (Adult Gold) skills. Of course, they're not test passable, but I am trying them. My coach has me learn skills on the same track as the kids. Some skills come easier than others, but I gotta think this is true nomatter what your age.

So. . . I agree that being adult has challenges, but I don't agree that we are limited because we are. Even if you don't reach your dreams you can come close if you try. I'd rather fail trying than be sucessful and not.

teresa

I think where you're losing focus on (and what I think double3s is alluding to) is that for the Silver Moves test, there are NO point of reference to draw a lot of the moves from. Sure, for the 3 in the fields, if you were "fortunate" (depend on your mindset) enough to take the PreBronze moves back when it had the alt-3's from prelim moves, you already have a head start on the 3's in the field in Silver Moves. (And if not, then at least the FO3 part of the forward power 3's from the Bronze Moves test.) And if you don't have lower back problems, you've probably already got a good start on the spirals move element back when you were in LTS. Everything else though, you have no previous tests to start from, so this is where the challenge lies in the Silver Moves test.

I think that was double3's point, not whether or not adult have just as much capability as kids to learn these MITF. (And I will leave the topic as is... b/c the other topic (the adult vs. kids thing) is one of those topics that will definitely end up having ISk8NYC (or some other moderator) locking up this thread! Of course, this is my experience of being on this board for years!!! LOL!!! )

(And now back to pretending that I'm not reading this thread b/c I'm not even working on this test... well, don't tell my coaches that. They have other ideas. Of course, they also think I have copious spare time to waste... )

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11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

There is nothing that says you can't test on both tracks at the same time. So, if you think the adult track progression is too difficult, or skills that are introduced on the standard track would help you... take both sets of tests.... or if you choose not to test, just work your way through both sets of tests in a ladder pattern.

The way I see it -- and this is JUST my OPINION -- Pre-Pre and PB moves are essentially the same difficulty level and skills are pretty comparable, so you can work on both at the same time. Then do Preliminary, then Bronze, then Pre-Juvenile, then Silver, the Juvenile, then Gold and you end up at Intermediate. And despite what many people say Gold and Intermediate may LOOK like the same test with Intermediate requiring "just 0.2" more to pass, but the quality of skating expected is higher throughout.. not just on the elements.

It took me 5 years of working on and off then a full year of steady work on Silver (and two attempts) to pass, but I did finally. I've also been working on Juveniles moves all that time. And strangely enough, passing the Silver MIF was such a feeling of accomplishment for me, that I no longer think of Juvenile as "not happening in this lifetime" which also leads to the idea I may start working on Gold MIF someday. (Not just yet... I have enough to deal with right now).

Now back to our regularly-scheduled discussions....

I didn't really skate as a kid. When it came time for private lessons my parents pulled me out, so I only got as far as backwards crossovers. I went back to it in my 20s and got to ISI 4. Then went back to it again at 37 or so and now I'm going to test Bronze FS. I hadn't competed until my 39th birthday (literally) and hadn't set foot on a freestyle session until I was 37.Unfortunately due to financial constraints I only practice twice a week.

I agree that the sequence may be odd in adult track and standard track might be better, that makes sense to me as doubletoe explained it.

My point, though, is that we shouldn't lower the bar all that much for adults. I absolutely believe that most of skating is mental and a lot of times when we don't progress it's due to fear, not physical limitations. When it comes to moves, that fear manifests as tension, not bending enough, lack of speed, etc. The testing structure shouldn't be changed based on that! I say this even though my knee injury causes a locked spiral skating leg to radiate pain. But I fell on my kneecap - that would have hurt as a kid too.

I'm talking moves and not freestyle. The odds of me doing a double jump at this point are slim; I don't practice enough. I'll certainly never get a double axel. But can I pass Gold moves? Definitely...someday. And I'm sure as hell no Sascha Cohen...

__________________
Revised Official 2010 Goals checklist
Skate __
New boots __
(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

I have to agree with looplover and teresa here in that you shouldn't limit adults because you think some adults can't do the skills. And if the progression is not as you think it should be there is nothing to stop any adult learning the additional skills that lead to them, taken from the US standard track is there? You don't have to test them but you can certainly learn them.

I never skated as a kid and took my first ever LTS lessons at 36. I thought the UK interbronze (now level 4 - used to be 8 levels in total so about halfway but two new levels have been added recently) field moves looked absoutely impossible but 8 years later I passed them and am working on the next level. Of course it's taken me longer than most kids but part of that was because I didn't work on them as I was busy with dance and free skating and didn't need to pass them. The kids (and adults in UK) have to pass the moves equivalent to the level of their freeskating in order to compete. My moves are now several levels above what my free skating is, or is ever likely to be but I'll continue to test moves and am delighted to be able to say I am level 4 in moves which are the same as the ones the kids do, to the same standards. That is a real feeling of achievement which I don't think I would have had from a dumbed down version or an 'adult track' version of moves.

In fact I can't see the point of US adult track moves if they are basically selected from the standard track anyway. And personally, I'd prefer to attain a lower level but know I'd passed them to the standard level, than to be on paper a 'higher' standard but know that actually they weren't up to the same passing standard as the kids - but I know there are many adults who feel differently.

The big danger with altering the moves because certain skills are more difficult for adults is that while that is probably generally true, determining 'which' skills are more difficutl for adults is not easy as it is likely to vary between adults. I have back, hip and knee problems yet the real reason I had problems with back 3's was because I never practised them. I didn't have any particular problems with the alternating FO3's and yet I dislike mohawks while friends at similar level hate 3 turns and love mohawks and find them easy. Despite knee problems I love doing drags (lunges) but I have adult friends who think they'll never be able to do one.

Anyway - kudos to all who take and pass any tests as an adult.

Just a thought on kid skaters. Daughter who started at same time as me is now practising for the new level 9 moves although she only needs level 5 (her freeskating level ) to compete. She has 3 half hour lessons per week (same as me - I used to have more than her as hers were shared until recently) and practices probably less than I do - maybe a max of two hours practice a week and usually less than that.
So why is she more advanced than me - well all the usual reasons of adult bodies having to overcome fear and bad muscle memory and old injuries and less flexibility etc. (but mostly fear!) But I'm still glad to know I'm treated for testing purposes as a 'skater' and not as an 'adult skater' and if I can get to level 5 or 6 moves I'll be thrilled. I have adult skater friends who have done it (having learned as adults starting after age 30).

So, just my $.02....

I can understand the different standards for adults and kids, for a lot of what others have said...however....I think there is also a difference between adults who began skating as adults, and adults who began skating as a kid. For my own situation, I skated as a kid, so when I started with my coach, she asked me if we were doing standard or adult track...I of course said standard track (I'm working on Intermediate moves, it wouldn't even make sense for moves to do adult track....), because for me, I skated as a kid, I have the confidence on the ice and I know that I can do it....needless to say, my coach was ecstatic when I told her that My only issue at this point is my stamina which just isn't there yet...I'm still sucking wind at the end of my program...but even that will get better as I skate more!

The Adult tests were picked as they were because the committee who picked them felt those were the skills adults should have at a given level. These are the elements that the committee that drew up these tests thought were a good match for the FS level. Yes, the back threes can be hard, but should have been introduced long ago at some point and are the basis for spins and jumps. Yes, the 8-step can be hard, but it builds on the 5 step. Yes, the power pulls can be hard, but it helps for better spring in jumps (which is, at least in my mind, is a major difference between Bronze and Silver, not an Axel). Yes, the cross strokes can be hard, but those help build power and variability in stroking which you should see at the Silver level and is (should be) the other major difference between Bronze and Silver levels.

I am not great at MIF by a long shot, so it's not like they provide an advantage to me over other skaters. I am struggling with some of the finer points of the Novice test while I work on it casually. I will work on it seriously after ANs with the goal of passing before September.

My coach says that many adults have trouble passing Silver. I sure did! But given that it's the second to last Adult test, I really do think that the bar is acceptably high.

I think every Moves test is at first. I know I was that way with Bronze, but it eventually got easier. I'm finding the same is true with Silver. I agree with everyone who said that Silver builds on the lower Moves levels.

What has surprised me the most so far, is that on Gold, you have to suddenly do ALL the brackets. 3-turns are introduced over 3 levels, while all 8 brackets just show up out of the blue on Gold.

On the standard track test, they show up out of the blue on Intermediate. Brackets sort of build off your ability to do threes.

But a bracket is just the opposite of a 3 turn...brackets facilitate doing counters and rockers which then allow you to do all the moves on the Sr.

Figures were the same-- the 2nd was all nice big circles and then suddenly on the 3rd you get loops!!:? Hello!!

It's just the way skating goes...

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As others have mentioned, the 8 step mohawk sequence (Silver/Juv) builds up to the brackets in Gold/Intermediate. The upper body placement and check for the mohawk is similar to what is needed for a FO bracket. (Granted, that's only one of the brackets.)

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