eSkater and I have an ongoing #####, er, complaint session going on regarding the evil Silver Moves in the Field (Adult track, USFSA testing structure). This the third (of four) Moves tests for adults and I think it is orders of magnitude more difficult than Bronze moves, which were only slightly more difficult than preBronze moves.

The Silver Moves are:
1Eight-Step Mohawk Sequence
2 Forward and Backward Free Skating Cross Strokes
3 FO-BI 3-turns in the Field
4 FI-BO 3-turns in the Field
5 Forward Right- and Left-Foot Spirals
6 Forward and Backward Power Change of Edge Pulls

So anybody else think Silver moves are too big of a jump from Bronze moves?

(other levels are here: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_rules/mif_...ents_adult.htm)

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

I think they are reasonable. Bronze moves are a mix of preliminary and pre-juvenile. Silver moves are a mix of pre-juvenile and juvenile. It seems to fit.

I say that as someone who has failed the test too.

Haven't taken it yet ... will be *years* before I'm ready to test - wheras I tested (and passed) Bronze only 9 months after PreBronze.

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

It's taking me longer too. I tested pre-bronze and bronze about nine months apart. I worked on Silver Moves for over a year before attempting. I did not come close to passing, but that was with the dreaded two major errors.

Given that there are only four levels of Adult testing, I don't know what it would be better to make it easier. We don't have an 8 level system, so shouldn't Silver be more a bar? It's definitely a big step up for most Adults, but I think it's possible for many.

Ask me again next year when I get around to actually practicing it. My coaches are currently too swamped with getting my act... er, program together for AN! I currently don't even have BI3's to speak off, though I do have consistent BO3's now. (Irony is that I sorta have a BI bracket. Go figure...)

But so far, given that I have not much of a turnout, the 8 step mohawks will be the death of me. Can I just be declare myself a "Bronze Lifer" now?

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I think you will find that once you pass Silver moves and start work on Gold moves, the increase in difficulty is that much all over again. It's sort of like the increase in difficulty and work load as you go from elementary school to junior high school, then high school. They assume you are also learning how to learn, so they give you a steeper learning curve each time. Standard track is even worse, so we are lucky to have the more lenient requirements we get on the adult tests (I had no idea until I passed my Adult Gold test, then took my first standard track test and got my first "retry").

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

For me, it was a three year time frame between passing Pre Bronze moves and Bronze moves. Now I was doing competitions and such during that window of time too. I really had to stop competing for awhile and focus on the Bronze moves test alone to get it to passing.
As far as the Silver test goes, my coaches are "sneaking" patterns into my programs. Let's see, I have the 8 step in my freestyle, forward and back crossstrokes in my Bronze CM and my secondary coach is going to fight with all her might to get at RBO3 out of me in my Artistic program.

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

What exactly is your problem with the test? Which moves do you think are too much of a leap in skill from Bronze?

I noticed a huge difference going from Intermediate to Novice moves. Novice was the first test that I couldn't even do the patterns after passing Intermediate. Even Novice to Junior wasn't as bad.

Well PB is basically edges, XOS, and Forward 3 turns. Bronze is more of the same + FI mohawk. By contrast, every single move in Silver has something new, including: FO mohawk, Backward 3 turns, crosssrokes and power pulls. There's not a single move in Silver that takes something already learned and just makes it harder (like going from prebronze crossovers in a figure 8 to bronze alternating power crossovers).

It's not so much that I think I can't do the moves (eventually) or that adults shouldn't learn them - it's that I think it introduces too many new things at once and makes it really difficult for the adult to progress. I actually think the whole adult structure is pretty flawed and would love to see it revamped, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

I've heard the same from skaters I know who have passed Intermediate and have either passed, tested, or are working on Novice.

To answer your question about Silver--I notice that the big thing at Silver is that upper-body check is SOOOO much more critical to the proper execution of the moves than at the earlier levels (with the exception of the alternating threes that are no longer on the Pre-Bronze moves, in which checking is critical). I could do the power threes from the Bronze moves test with less upper-body check and use of shoulders than I feel like I need to properly execute the 3s in the field and 8-step from Silver.

At the same time, that's why I've come to love the 3s in the field (even though I'm not doing them to passing standard yet). Doing them has been teaching me to be REALLY conscious where my shoulders are (helps me on freestyle) and (I never thought I'd say this), I have come to really like BI3s. (Now BO3s are an entirely different matter...) Doing the 3s in the field has also REALLY improved my forward 3s.

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I haven't started really learning all the silver moves yet (I just do the back 3 turns for fun)- as I haven't passed bronze yet, but I disagree that there is no skill that was tested before but progressed. I think taking the forward 3 turns from the lower tests and turning them into back 3-turns is a progression in difficulty, but the same skill- they are both 3-turns. I also think taking a FI mohawk and moving it to a FO mohawk is a progression- it's still a mohawk, but a more difficult one.

I'm not really familiar with the cross strokes- but it seems that they take the basics from crossovers, so while the test is really difficult the edge pulls seem to be the only really "new" move on the test- the way the mohawks were the "new" move on the bronze test. Everything else seems to be based on something that came before it.

(I know that the spirals weren't on a previous test- but they are in the PB free test as an option, and to me the spirals seem to be a "gimmie" move- even though they are difficult to do for many adults- that's a pre-pre move. The skating skill is not hard, just the flexibility. )

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-Jessi
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Ok, looking at these moves compared to Bronze and previous elements:

8-step mohawk (silver) builds on 5-step mohawk (bronze)
Cross strokes are a mutation of crossovers, and the alternating BO edges are similar to BO cross strokes
Spirals - are these the edge ones from Prelim or straight-line spirals?
Edge pulls are also a mutation of stroking that gets introduced in Pre-Juv
3-turns in the field gets the same prep as standard tests, minus the alternating 3-turn pattern.

New elements for sure, but just because something doesn't directly relate to a move on the previous test doesn't mean that it doensn't belong there. These moves need to be introduced somewhere.

What would you change/rearrange?

Put the edge pulls somewhere in the beginning - those things are a killer at the end

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Tim David's Website

Hmmm, I actually kind of like having them at the end, b/c they require a little less, shall we say, exactness, than the other moves. I'd rather get the really hard stuff (8-step and back 3s) over with first. My one complaint is that the power pulls and spirals seem like polar opposites - one requires stretching out muscles and the other requires pulling in and quickness - I might prefer to have the power pulls before the spirals, but having the moves in their current order hasn't been a problem for me. Now, as for the moves themselves, lol......


Really? Yikes, I've been thinking that Gold Moves might be easier than Silver, in the sense that when you master the technique for single 3-turns, double 3s will be relatively easy (not as steep a learning curve as learning back 3s to begin with). And when you get the movement and checking for the 8-step, you'll be able to do the brackets. I realize that Gold requires much more power and quickness than Silver, but as has been pointed out, Silver has a lot of 'new' skills (like Pre-Juv from Prelim) and then Gold builds on them. It seems that the kids I skate with take much less time to pass Juv MIF than Pre-Juv MIF (although having only 4 moves on Juv might have something to do with it) and Int also seems to come easier than Pre-Juv MIF for some kids.

I think part of the issue with the skills in Silver is that they are taken from 2 (well, 3 if you count the spirals) different standard track tests, and like with other adult MIF tests, sometimes certain moves were meant to follow, not complement, each other. For example, in Pre-Bronze, you have forward stroking and crossover figure 8s - in the standard track, they are on 2 different tests b/c the crossovers are designed to be an advancement of the stroking skill learned from the previous test. You also have the new 3-turn move (replacing the alt 3s) on Pre-Bronze - both that move and the alt 3s are designed to develop mastery of all of the forward 3-turns (whereas the waltz 8 on Pre-Prelim/Pre-B only tests the FO 3s), but on the standard track that skill is expected on the 2nd test (Prelim) and on the adult track it's the first. To me, it makes more sense to have the 3-turn move on the Bronze test (maybe replacing the power 3s) and the expectation would be for the turns to be done at a higher level (I recently saw a Pre-B test and the level at which the 3 turns were done would never have passed on the alt 3 move, and IMO, the passing standard really wasn't helping the skater in the long run). And having the 3-turns on the Bronze test would be a better lead-in to the 3-turns on Silver, just like the alt 3s on Prelim lead to the 3-turns on Pre-Juv.

As for the 8-step and cross strokes, I think you can justify them being on the Silver test b/c they build on moves on the Bronze test (5-step and the forward and back perim stroking - if you look at the progression of moves on the standard track tests, it seems that every level has at least one stroking move, increasing in difficulty as you go up). However, the power pulls are also sort of a building block for cross strokes (in fact, the PSA moves video recommends using power pulls to teach cross strokes), but on the adult track, those moves are on the same test, and learning them both at the same time is a challenge. I suspect that once you get the power pulls, it takes less time to get the cross strokes - probably part of the reason why it takes most kids less time to master Juv MIF than Pre-Juv.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Hate to bring up an old subject but....... I think the removal of the consecutive 3's from the pre-bronze has contributed to the feeling of big jumps in the adult MITF test. For me, I really felt good about having learned those 3's before things got really difficult.

Each test has it's challenges and they all get harder for a reason. I am in the official "bracket and power circle hater's club" if anyone wants to join!

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Yes, this is all what I was thinking, although you articulated it so much more eloquently than I could even attempt.

I know that Novice moves are a sort of watershed, and it's where a lot of kids drop out. I'm wondering if Silver moves aren't the equivalent watershed, and where we lose a lot of adults. I know Silver is a much lower level of difficulty than Novice, but it Silver seems to be a major sticking point for so many of us.

For the record, I don't intend to be one of those dropping out - I WILL test and pass Silver and Gold - and then I'll take Standard track as far as I can, too. In fact, I'm considering going back and doing the first 3 Standard tests before Silver because I think the Adult track has made me miss out on some of the basic skills I need for Silver (like those alternating 3s for checking and control).

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

I agree that learning the forward 3-turns is important and builds skills for moves at higher levels (see my post). But remember, the reason the alt 3s were dropped from the adult track and replaced with the new pattern was not b/c adults had problems with 3-turns - it was the BI-FO choctaw transition at the line - the 'twisty' movement is very difficult for adults, who are less flexible and tend to be more closed-hipped than kids. The new 3-turn move requires the same 3-turns but it's done in an easier pattern.

As I said in my post, I think there's a strong case for moving that to the Bronze test, and then really requiring the turns to be done well (at the top of the lobes, on edges, etc) and power to be generated on the 'crossover' lobe, like with the power 3s. Right now, actually, it's a bit confusing as to whether the 'cross' notation on the diagram of the 3-turn pattern means a crossover or a cross-front. I've seen this move tested twice and they each did it differently - 1 skater did the BI weight shift transition and a crossover (like on the power 3s) before stepping to the FI edge and the other did basically stepped to the BI and BO edges and did a cross front, with no power generated, which made the move very slow. Both skaters passed.....but it would make it easier for both the skaters and the judges if that was clarified on some official video.

And since power 3s have that same choctaw transition as the alt 3s (although speed makes it a bit easier), I'd say get rid of that move and put the 3-turns in there. Yes, I know that power is an important skill, but since 4 of the 5 moves on Bronze MIF have power as a primary focus, I don't think replacing one of them would be a big deal.

But I don't make the rules....

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Not to be rude or anything but I think people should stop deliberating over whether or not there is a big jump and just get on with practising them - everything is doable eventually. And they make such a difference to your basic skating.

I went from level 2 dance moves (UK) (there were only two skills in each level in dance moves- I think level 2 included forward outside edges and forward crossrolls, or maybe it was a change of edge thing can't remember), directly to what was interbronze field moves (now level 4 skate moves) (due to a quirk of testing changes). IB field moves had 6 skills that all had to have power and flow ,including alternating FO3's (no xovers between), alternating FI3's with a back Xover between. Forward and back power pulls the length of rink on each foot, FO to FI changes of edge and FI to FO changes of edge, Back cross strokes (max of 6-8 to cover length of rink) and the one I had most trouble with, BO3 /mohawk, repeat in circle in both directions which had to have power and flow i.e approx 4-6 repeats in a large circle. I didn't worry about the massive jump in skills - I just knew I wanted to pass (as otherwise I'd have had to go back to do level 3 of the new moves) and put in a couple of months intensive work to do so.

The new moves (UK) have just 4 skills in each level and I'm now also going back and learning the new level 3 moves which I missed out on as they will help with my level 5 moves, although I'll never have to test the level 3 or 4.

I think your skills number 3 and 4 in silver are now on our level 3 test if they are the ones where you do a FO turn and then the BI on the other foot (and vice versa) rather than a double 3 turn on same foot. Personally I find the double 3 turns (now on our level 5) easier than these, but probably because I haven't practised them much since they weren't on the test I was taking.

UK adults take same tests to same standards as kids. I never thought I'd be taking the IB FM's let alone passing them, as they seemed completely unattainable when I started. I started skating at 38 (now over 45) and have below average flexibility and turnout, so if I can do it anyone can!

Well, I've been working on the standard preliminary test (still haven't passed it yet) at the same time as the silver moves, and the alternating threes are definitely the biggest challenge for me. Remind me of why I quit the first time when I couldn't get the threes-to-center on the first figure test 30+ years ago. But they do help with the forward parts of the silver/prejuv threes.

If and when I do pass the silver moves, which is looking less and less likely to be this year, I definitely expect the brackets and the CW forward power circles to be my biggest stumbling blocks on gold.

I can't help but agree on this. I really think suffering 18 months of alternating three hell helped somewhat on power threes and my three year stint in power three planet is sorta helping on the threes in the field, even if I'm only dabbling on them for the time being.

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

I'll also agree on the alt 3's too, though I would have put them in the Bronze Moves test instead (and the power 3's should be on the SILVER moves test.)

I'll agree with the "power circles haters" club -- well, at least the back crossovers part. And the speed for the Gold Moves thing is too scary for me, even though I'm getting better. (Of course, it could also very well be that I started hating them around the time my secondary coach had me doing power circles, but had me pitted against someone who JUST PASSED her Gold Moves a couple of weekends ago!!! Now THAT is evil!!! )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Do you know for a fact that this is the reason? As someone who has struggled with F alt threes for years, I found the new Pre-B pattern much easier, but not because the Choctaw was missing. It's easier for me because the lobe on which each three is done is much smaller, thereby requiring less control. Besides, if you do the figures transition from BI edge to FO edge on the FO alt threes, you wil not be doing a Choctaw and turnout is not an issue. Of course, I'm struggling with that too!

I agree with cross strokes being built on the F and B XO patterns in Pre-Bronze, and I think one reason they are in Silver is that skaters are allowed to pass Pre-B without a solid underpush. That underpush, done with the O edge, is what drives the cross strokes.

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I remember all the b****ing about alt-3s when they were on the pre-bronze test - and I was also one who disliked them. For an 'encouragement test', it took me three years to go from beginner to pass pre-bronze moves. Those alt-3s seemed like a huge and unfair first hurdle for most skaters.

Once I got past the pre-bronze, I passed bronze the year after, then silver the following year. That progression went smoothly.

However gold eludes me. It's been a year or two since I've passed silver moves, and I don't feel any urgency to test gold. Therefore I've been neglecting practice for the next test, and avoiding the still-tenuous elements (can we just say LBO brackets?) - perhaps out of self-preservation.

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Bill Schneider

I don't understand what you mean about "figures transition" above, could you explain?

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Due to the logical succession of skills built into the standard track tests, I honestly think they should have the adults test the standard track MIF tests but just have a lower passing standard for the adults. I have been hurting on the Intermediate MIF test because of the one move that had no precursor at all on the adult track (but it did have a precursor on the Juvenile test).
The only exception I would make would be to put the spiral move on the Juvenile test for the adults, to mirror its position as part of the Adult Silver MIF test. I agree with the reasoning behind putting the spirals later in the adult MIF test track, i.e, that lack of flexibility--particularly in the men--should not prevent an adult from competing at Adult Nationals in Bronze.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics