IJS scoring system seems to be a numbers game where it seems like the competitive coaches assemble the elements with the focus on maximizing points. I was curious on what everyone's experience is particular juv. and higher. Does your coach say let's throw in a lot of level 3's elements, double jumps and build a high base value? Our coach seems to be very uninformed about the system despite being a former olympian. My daughter's base value from her TES didn't even giver her a chance to finish in the top 3.

In canada, juvies will have everything called level 1 regardless (FYI in case anyone cares )

first off we come up with how many jump passes I can do and then decide on the jumps. We figure out what spins to do. Since I'm not a high level skater, I only get level 1 though we do work on trying to get higher levels. After that the decision of the spiral or step sequence is discussed (I do spiral because I can get higher levels) Once we know whats to be included, the choreography can begin. We try to get as many transitions as possible between the jumps as well as having varied footwork.

My coach is just learning about IJS and I bring all documents with me to review or go over in case we can't remember whats needed for what level. My coach also has no problem going to another coach at my club who is pretty well versed in IJS and asking for clarification.

Unfortunately, many coaches are uninformed when it comes to IJS. When they were competing, it didn't exist, and it still feels very foreign to them. After reviewing the balanced program rules for your daughter's level (how many jumps, spins, etc, and what type they have to be), I would suggest printing out these documents and reviewing them with her coach:

1.Scale of values for Singles & Pairs (can be found in the Technical section at www.usfsa.org, but the website is down right now)

2. 2009-2010 Levels & GOE guildelines ISU Communication 1557

You can also ask your coach to set up a meeting with the technical specialist at your next competition to get feedback (or even better, a critique session at least a month before your daughter's big competition!).

Also, remember that an element with a lower level or base value can be worth more than one with a higher base value once you take into account the grade of execution. In other words, your daughter needs to do the elements she does best because those will give her a higher final score than if she did higher level elements but executed them poorly. Her coach knows which elements those are.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

My main coach is a TS and knows IJS inside out and is constantly getting communications concerning the various clarifications.

We work elements outside the program first and foremost to know what is going in the program.

We review the non-jump elements list of features and figure out what I can do (COE, back start, etc for spins) and work the element to consistently be able to be called one level higher than what we are shooting for (so that if something gets shorted, it won't be a level 1). In practice and lessons on spins in isolation, we always shoot for 4 revs in each position (and edge) unless it's one to be held for 8, then we shoot for 10. My coach uses the stop watch function on her phone to determine how long the spin should take when we construct the program so I don't feel the need to rush through positions and possibly blow my revs in each position/edge down to a L1.

We spend equal time on each type of element - jumps, spins, and step sequence because they are equally important and a level 2 change combination spin is equal to a double loop/double loop combination!

For jumps, we only put in jumps which are sure to gain at least BV. We look for creative entrances/exits that may gain a positive GOE or negate something a little off about the jump to raise it back to BV. For example, the solo Axel in my program is proceeded by a bauer and exits with power pulls.

Once we know what elements are going in the program and I've cut my music, we construct. One of the goals she pushes me for is to have 4 jump passes get the second half bonus.

Many of the coaches here, including my own, are now qualified TSs, having taken the course simply so that they could help their pupils maximise their scores, with no real interest in actually acting as a TS at a competition.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

My daughter gets two days a week with the "technical" coach and another two with choreographer. Problem is they don't coordinate in planning the program. Sadly the technical coach is woefully uninformed about the IJS system and feels it's our job to check the rules. He has a really big ego (being a former russian olympian) and is annoyed when we ask for feedback or provide them. After a recent competition we sat down with him to review my daughter's first IJS score detail. I wished our coaches had broken down the technical elements like this months before when the program was written so we could evaluate base values and upgrade some of her spins and spirals since almost nearly all were level 1's - she's capable of level 3 and 4's. It was frustrating because I was thinking about some of the top skaters in our group had coaches who probably was more organized and strategic about planning their programs, while here we are trying to get our coach to be more involved and proactive.

I'm not saying you should do this, but that's why I switched coaches earlier this year. My old coach knew nothing about IJS and my own knowledge wasn't enough. Old coach was primarily an ISI coach in an ISI rink and I knew I wasn't going to progress any more there. I switched to a coach who knows IJS inside and out and we've built my program around maximizing my points. I believe that the parent and skater should be informed about the rules, but it's up to the coach to be informed as well. If he has the attitude that "it's your job" to do everything, that won't work well. Even if you know the rules and base values, you as the parent dosen't construct the skaters program. It's up to the coach/chorographer to be informed as well.

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

The choreographer seems more informed about the rules. I think it's also coaching attitude/philosophy as well. There's is building skating foundation and success takes years and is a long ways off. It's a good principle, but in the meantime is there any wrong with wanting a coach to helping their skaters have competitive successes along the way by building programs that leverage their skills in "maximizing" the highest points?

To be fair, it's about maximizing points by knowing the skater's strengths and weaknesses. Doubletoe explained that well. Can I ask then, if the chorographer is informed about the rules, why didn't the chorographer make the program better? Or did your skater have stronger PCS (Program Component Scores) marks? I'm confused, I guess. The chorographer would put in the spins and spirals and footwork. If the chorographer is better versed in IJS, why didn't she/he put in higher level elements?

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Here's the other part of the issue, the choreographer went on vacation out of the country six weeks before the competition and left the technical coach to monitor and make adjustments. She won't return until the end of summer. In the meantime, technical coach didn't make any adjustments until a few days before, when he decided to check with competition's technical specialist for rule compliance. He decides at the last minute to modify the program to upgrade some of the values without consulting choreographer. As a result, a large part of the footwork and transition was modified or eliminated. My daughter did her best but I guess it was a mess trying to skate under that condition.

Sounds like you should sit down with both coach and chorographer and have a frank talk about your expectations. It sounds like no one's on the same page, and the coach is making changes to the program that the chorographer dosen't know about. A discussion with everyone is a good idea at this point.

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Yes we plan on it, but in the meantime we've got three weeks before the next competition and the choreographer won't return until afterwards. I just wanted to know how other coaches plan their skaters program and if our coaches are doing enough to give our daughter adequate preparation with a program that gives her the best opportunity to compete successfully against other top skaters in her peer group.

It sounds to me like the biggest problem at your daughter's competition was downgrades for underrotated jumps. Since the jumps are most likely not going to become clean in the next 3 weeks, I would see about doing single flips and lutzes, but with "features." I'd see if the coach would be willing to tweak the entrances a bit to make them more difficult (traveling 3-turns into a flip, a spiral or spread eagle into a lutz, things like that), and have your daughter work on more difficult air positions like arms overhead or on the waist. This way, she get +GOE on a single instead of -GOE on a downgraded double (so, essentially, -GOE on a single).

What happened with her spins? Did she get them all called level 1? If so, I would really consider looking over the IJS forms that doubletoe posted, especially the ones pertaining to spin levels, and see about raising the levels of her spins.

__________________
Youtube Videos

She had a total of 11 elements in her program. Her jumps consisted of 1A, 2Lz, combo sequence 2LZ-2Lo-2T-2F, followed by 1A, 2S and 2F. Her spins were LSP1, FSSP1, and CCoSp2. She had one spiral sequence - SLSt1. Actual TES was 11.08 + CPS 14.39 = TSS of 25.47. The downgrades on her 2Lz, 2F, and combo really did the most damage. We didn't know that if the first jump of a combo sequence is downgraded, the combo is not counted even if the rest of the jumps in the sequence were cleanly landed. Our technical coach didn't know this either.

Sorry, if I'm misunderstanding, but did the sequence consist of all of those jumps? 2lz, 2lo 2toe and 2flip? Or did she have a 2lz+2loop combo and 2toe+2flip sequence? If it was a jump sequence consisting of all of those jumps, I believe she would have lost a bunch of points since, as far as I know, only the first two jumps of the sequence count for points.

For her layback spin and flying sit, she might be able to raise those levels relatively easily. She could get one feature for a difficult fly on the flying sit if it's a death drop or a regular flying sit with good "tuck." From there, she could do one or two difficult variations, hold a position for 8 revs or change edges. Each of those would be a feature. However, one thing I've noticed from watching other girls and looking at their protocols, it's a good idea to hold each feature for about 2 revs longer than necessary, just to be safe. I don't know if it's just my region, but it almost seems as if callers are hesitant to give out levels to the lower level IJS competitors.

__________________
Youtube Videos

The sequence was 2Lz+2Lo+2T followed by a half loop+2F. Her 2Lz downgrade invalidated the rest of the sequence. We did get her coach to upgrade her spins. My daughter loves the death drop feature and is able to perform it solidly so we're trying to get it added to her spin. As for 8 revolutions, I'm not sure she has the strength to do 8, but we definitely encourage her to do 1 or 2 extra rotations for the judges to notice. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise being a higher level skater. I think its the same in our Region (South Atlantic), many of the higher level competitors are guarded about revealing their element levels. BTW do most competitions in your region allow sharing of the protocols or IJS detail sheets of other skaters. We asked our coach to request copies of all the skaters in my daughters group and he said they didn't let him. I'm not sure if he tried hard enough, because I called the committee chairperson and he is working on getting those for me.

This is probably the biggest way your daughter lost points. Even if she executed the 2lz cleanly (although I've also never heard about a downgrade in the first jump of a sequence causing the whole sequence to be discounted), she would only get points for the 2lz and the 2F. ONLY the two highest jumps are counted when calculating points in a jump sequence. When they say the number of jumps in a sequence is unlimited, it seems to me they mean you can do any number of half-loops or other connecting hops. I would definitely talk to a technical specialist about your daughter's program. You'll want to reduce the number of listed jumps (as in the ones that have base values) to two for the jump sequence, then take it from there to figure out where to put the remaining jump elements.

My coach has never asked for copies of other skaters protocols, but after results come out, we'll sometimes casually look over protocols with other skaters we're friendly with. However, the protocols for Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals and Junior Nationals are all viewable online. Here are the Juvenile detailed results from last year's SA regionals.

__________________
Youtube Videos

We were puzzled why so got no credit for her sequence jumps, but our coach didn't challenge and assumed that's the rule. We're trying to figure out how to go to a technical specialist without making our coach annoyed, we're kind of scared of his reaction. Thank you for the link - I didn't know about it. You are very gracious and I appreciate your feedback very much.

It is your coach's job to know the rules of the sport and educate you. Not the other way around.

program elements chart
http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...FSElements.pdf

levels of difficulty
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Conte...Difficulty.pdf

scale of values
http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...809-SP-SOV.pdf

When I make myself a new technical program, I cut my own music and "draw the map" to figure out where I want my maneuvers to go. When I show it to my coach, he helps me figure out a footwork sequence (if needed) and makes sure all my other maneuvers are "legal."

All my Interp./Artistic programs are completely Do-It-Yourself. That's some major fun stuff!

__________________
This space has been put on hiatus for retuning....

My coach really knows his stuff, and his main focus (with all skaters, whether 6.0 or IJS) is building a program to maximize and showcase a skater's strengths. Beyond that, he works the system and its intricacies for as many points as he can with spins, connecting steps, bonuses for jumps being late. BUT if something isn't working leading into a competition, it comes out (i.e. a double lutz that is consistently cheated), because it's not worth taking the point loss.

Part of the beauty of IJS is concrete feedback in the form of your protocol that you can take home and use as a tool for how and exactly where you need to improve. When I competed synchro under IJS, after each competition our coaches would look at exactly where we (and all our club's other teams) lost points, and what/how we needed to fix things. That really helped the programs developed. It wasn't unusual to see a program scoring 20 points higher or more when you compared the first competitions in November or December to Nationals in February. Freestyle is really no different in that regard.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

This makes me shake my head. So it's a three jump combo that then takes an 80% dive by adding a fourth jump turning it into a sequence, and there's unused jump space in the rest of the program by not comboing other jump slots. So if the rhythm of the jumps were not good and it didn't look like a sequence it could be nullified, or the other option is to call it as a 3 jump combo and then a single flip, but my guess was that they called it a sequence that didn't meet the definition of sequence so it was a nothing. The coach should have questioned this with the referee at the competition to get a clarification. That whole thing is a huge huge risk.

I looked at the US juvie requirements. There's no limit to the number of jumps in a sequence.

From Technical Notification 43

So while the number of jumps is unlimited, only the two highest valued jumps count. In this case, it would've been the 2F and the 2Lz. As to why the whole sequence was discounted, I don't know. I agree with Slusher that the best thing to do would have been to talk to the referee.

__________________
Youtube Videos

OK, I'm confused. . . Was the sequence 2Lz+ 2Lo+2T? or was it 2Lz+2Lo+2T+half loop+2F? If the sequence was 2Lz+2Lo+2T+half loop+2F and there was no limit to the number of jumps allowed in a sequence, then the values of the two most valuable jumps--the 2Lz and 2F--should have been added and that number multiplied by 80% to get the value. If both the 2Lz and 2F were underrotated, then it would have been the values of (1Lz+1F)x80%, which would be around 0.88 before GOE. But the score should not have been 0.
If the 2Lz+2Lo+2T was a separate jump pass from the half loop+2F, then neither the half loop+2F nor the 2Lz+2Lo+2T should have been considered a sequence. A half loop-2F is just a double flip from a difficult entry (it would only be a sequence if the half loop were preceded by a listed jump), and the 2Lz+2Lo+2T is 3-jump combination, NOT a sequence (because the landing of each jump is the takeoff edge for the next jump; there are no connecting hops, steps or unlisted jumps). Therefore, all 3 jumps in that combination should have received full credit if they were fully rotated, and any jump within that combination that was fully rotated should have still received credit even if the others got downgraded and counted as single jumps.

If her scoresheet had the name of one or two of those jumps, then "+ SEQ", then that means she did the first jump, but then missed the jump(s) that followed. But even then, she should have gotten 80% of the value of the jump she landed (even if it was underrotated and counted as a single).

BUT, if she received 0 points for this 3-jump combination (or the sequence that included the half loop-flip), that means that it was an illegal element--i.e., it was a violation of the balanced program rules. Perhaps she was repeating a jump she wasn't allowed to repeat or she was doing a 3 jump combination when only a 2-jump combination was allowed, or something of that nature. In either of those cases, the entire combination would be treated as an illegal element and given 0 points, so this sounds like the most likely explanation if her score for the element was 0. Here are the balanced program rules (from USFSA.org - Technical Information - Singles/Pairs):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...FSElements.pdf

What concerns me the most in this scenario is that her coach and choreographer were not on the same page with the balanced program rules and her coach changed the elements just before the competition. If this combination got no credit because it was a balanced program rule violation, then clearly, your coach got it wrong. The 6.0 era is over, so unless your coach is willing to coach your daughter on technique but submit to someone more IJS-savvy when determining her elements and choreography, I would seriously consider changing coaches.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Doubletoe - thanks for all of the feedback. We're planning to sit down with both coaches when the choreographer gets back from vacation. We did consider have a technical specialist review my daughter's performance and evaluate the jump combo/sequence.