Okay guys, I chatted with my boot fitter today as he sharpened my blades, and a lot of clarity came to me.

Ever since I've been here on this board, the overwhelming majority of opinions about my skates has been bad. Everyone's told me that I made a wrong choice and/or that the fitter did me an injustice by selling me my skates. In the past, I defended my choice, and explained how well the skates were working out for me.

When I discovered the heel separation defect on my skates, it all hit me at once - I suddenly believed all of the negative opinions and forgot the positive. I started blaming the fitter for the problems, and any little issue became a problem with the fitting or the boot manufacturer. I grew angry - I felt lied to and taken advantage of. I felt like my skates were worthless. My skating progress nearly halted, and in some respects regressed. I've not been able to really try, let alone land a loop since then.

I now realize the horrible error in my judgement and am sincerely sorry for what I have done. I feel especially bad for making the fitter the target of my anger.

Today I realized a few things:

• My boot fitter is a genuine, honest, and caring person.
• He does an outstanding job that many people are happy with and rely on.
• Graf is not a total evil. Many people are happy on their skates, including many at skating levels I will may never reach.
• My skates are a HUGE reason that I've been able to progress as far as I have.
• ...many other things.

Believe it or not, I don't even care about the boot defect anymore. So what if I have to get my skates repaired, so what if I end up getting new custom boots that are a better fit, so what if I don't, so what if it costs me a bit of time and money - it's NOT going to affect me as a skater any more, and never will again.

I have more detail to share, so I'll reply here later - right now I have to run.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Not much else to say, really. He really is a nice guy. but no one can blame you for getting somewhat upset at first... I know I would

Very sweet of you to write an apology, btw.

Don't beat yourself up over it! Having painful skates (I am still working through my foot cramps ) and troubleshooting can be very difficult and frustrating.

A few days ago I was telling my mom "What if I made a mistake? What if I should I have waited for customs? [They happened to have my size Graf in the store RIGHT THEN so of course how could I resist!] What if what if what if?"

My mother, exasperated, said "So what?! So they maybe they aren't perfect. If so, there isn't much you can do now. Maybe you will end up getting customs later. It isn't the end of the world!"

She basically said what you said! You are sooooo right. I am going to have the same mindset. I am just a worry-er about everything, but my boots are not going to be one of them.

We'll get through this!

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--
Natalie

http://www.ILoveTaB.com

A person can be the nicest in the entire world, it doesn't mean they are a good boot fitter- and being a bad boot fitter is not an insult, it's just a fact that probably has a lot to do with lack of experience. You can't be great at everything. This person is a great ice dancer, and probably great at a lot of other things. But at the end of the day, he still screwed up his customer's order by giving him the wrong size.

While I don't think you have to be concerned about having a stock boot versus a custom one if you have no feet problem, that kind of attitude "I'm not going to worry about my equipment" is the most wreckless and dangerous of them all. If something is wrong, you recognize it, and you fix it- you don't ignore it, that's what causes SO SO SO many injuries and bone deformities. There's a fine line between being paranoid about everything, and just accepting when something isn't working and is causing you discomfort. Personally I think it's better to be paranoid and check into everything rather than letting everything go and realizing three years later that your boot deformed your foot for life.

I did not mean that anyone should accept ill-fitting equipment. Of course it can be dangerous, etc. However, there is a range of boots and blades and sharpening options and fitting options that will work, to be honest. There is not just "one" magic combo or boot/blade soul-mate. I remember I worried about choosing a college, and to be honest, I would have been happy at many different schools, though at the time I thought there was ONE college, and if I messed up the decision it would screw up my life forever after

I do think people (for example, me) can over-obsess about equipment rather than facing other problems (practicing, worry about a test coming up, etc). I have been a skater for many years, and I feel like I personally have been worrying about the equipment rather than concentrating on the fact that I may be in fact insecure and nervous about getting 100% back into skating. I can only speak for myself, of course.

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--
Natalie

http://www.ILoveTaB.com

So sending my boots off to Graf for repair will take about 2 months, judging on the last pair my fitter sent back to them. 2 months without skates is a long time.

Refunding them is not an option, neither the manufacturer or the pro shop offer this after more than 90 days. Graf will, however, repair or replace them at their discretion (probably repair he said). I said that I was thinking about changing to a different bootmaker because I'm not really happy with the fit of the Grafs.

The fitter advised me that if I do want to get customs, that he recommends the Harlick route instead of Klingbeil unless I'm dead set on Klingbeil. He showed me a pair of custom Harlicks that were made for a lady with very wide balls, and they certainly did not have the usual pointy toes I've come to expect from Harlick boots. He said that Klingbeil almost never gets their customs fitted right the first time, so the boots require punching out or stretching at a minimum, and often have to be sent back for more work. Harlicks, on the other hand, arrive fitting perfectly out of the box 99.9% of the time. He said this is why they do not deal Klingbeils, but suggested the same person that Klingbeil had recommended in Portland if I really did want to go the Klingbeil route. There was woman who owned some very new Klingbeils there during the first few minutes of our conversation to have her boots stretched, and agreed with what he said (well after all, that's why she was there). He said that most coaches are not putting their new students into Klingbeils these days.

I said I found this a bit odd, because I'd heard so many good reviews of Klingbeil boots, but he insisted that Harlicks were much easier for him to deal with because nobody ever needed adjustments on custom Harlicks (meaning less work for him) versus custom Klingbeils. He did say that while he would not feel comfortable selling a pair of Klingbeils, that the woman in Portland (same as Don Klingbeil recommended) would be the best person to go to if I really want them.

He said that SP Teri makes a good boot, but it isn't well-suited for mens feet as much as womens. He said that Graf also offers custom boots now, should I be interested in staying with them. He praised Graf highly, even though one of his boots is having the same problem as mine, saying that Graf is the reason he's still skating.

Interestingly, he told a similar tale to mine - saying that at first when he discovered the flaw in his he felt like his edges were losing control and he was less certain on his skates, but said that he got used to them pretty quickly, and said the same thing as I have - the problem was likely mostly psychological.

He said if I don't want to wait the 2 months, he could repair them himself, but said that Graf would do it for free and they really should be made aware of their mistake. He said it *might* be faster since he already sent back another skater's pair for the same issue.

I saw a pair of Paramount blades and asked about them. He said that they were a replacement pair for somebody who had bought them and broken off the toepick, and that he wouldn't be selling any more of them. The light weight of the blade was impressive, but I don't know if I'd trust the strength, and they didn't look quite as nice as they do in pictures.

I asked him what he thought about parabolics, and he said that he was skating on them now, and personally liked them, but they required more work to control and were something he'd only sell to Novice and above skaters because while they do enable him to get edges he never could before, they're more difficult to handle.

All in all I was really happy with our conversation, because I'd been feeling so upset about the skates and him, and the whole conversation was really nice - he took his time with the sharpening answering any questions or telling me his thoughts, and I felt like he was being very honest.

I truly believe that he really loves the Graf skates for himself, and that he really thought they would be the best thing for my feet when he sold him to me. The idea that he was out to make the pro shop a bit more profit was just silly.

He trains with his partner every day, he coaches every day, and does skate work only because people trust his work, not because he really has the extra time for it (and he actually enjoys it).

So maybe Grafs aren't the best boot for me, but hey, mistakes happen, nobody's perfect - most people are really happy with the fittings this fitter has done, so I can't go so far as to say he's a lousy fitter, just that I happened to be the one who ended up having bad luck. I can't say with any degree of certainty that Klingbeils or any other brand would fit my feet better, to find out requires buying them and seeing.

On the bright side, even though my skates are starting to feel a bit roomy in the front, they don't really hurt my feet - only a few times has my right heel gotten sore, and the one issue with my ankle getting a swollen spot where the top of the boot is some months ago (hasn't happened since, even when I stopped wearing bunga pads). All in all, they're not really a bad fit I don't think - I've just been overanalyzing it since discovering the boot problem. Maybe not a perfect fit, but hey, they are stock boots after all. And I've come a long ways in them, and I'm not done learning in them yet.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I'm on my 4th pair of Klingbeils and have never had to have a pair sent back to the factory for adjustment. The most I've had to have done is to have a couple of minor punch-outs. I also had to have the 3rd pair stretched because my feet spread (despite very little change in my overall weight).

I was measured for the first 3 pairs by the same skate technician, and for the newest pair I went to a different technician whom I now utilize.

Because of weight changes and foot changes, I had to be remeasured for the 3rd pair and the 4th pair.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Well, I'm still most inclined to buy Klingbeils, though I'll have to reconsider Harlick since before I'd been discounting them since my feet are not narrow at the front.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

The thing to be noted is that custom Harlicks, although you can require them to be softer/harder, are still generally a MUCH MUCH stiffer boot than custom Klingbeil. Kligbeil offers plenty of support, and again can be ordered however you want it, but it's still generally thought of as a much lighter/easier to break in boot as Harlick.

I personally think Harlick is THE worst choice of boot you could make out of the good boot brands (SP Teri, Riedell, Klingbeil, and Harlick) because they are notorious for being the hardest to break in, most suitable for people doing triples and such, and I think you'd be super happy with Klingbeil. Either way though, you're getting a good quality boot.

A boot separating at the heel is not a psychological problem, it's a defect. And Graf is known for it. I think you should send them back even if you get a new, different pair....I mean you will always have a back up pair of boots that you could always do public sessions on when the ice is real beat up (and keep your old blades) or even try to resell them brand new. But don't just throw them out, Graf should fix its mistakes- it makes it often enough.

My coach had major issues with her custom harlicks... sent them back 4 times, and this past time received them with the holes in the sole plugged up, no screws (for the blades, obviously) and with one boot noticably longer than the other... needless to say she was upset She wanted a refund, but instead they're just starting all the way over on her boots. for free. sigh.

stardust skies... I was more referring to the fact that before Casey was almost angry at the person... in that it was like he'd done it intentionally Not that being nice automatically means you're a good fitter

Did that make *any* sense at all? I'm having trouble forming coherent thoughts

Well, I was thinking of keeping them anyways, but not sending them back until I have new skates, just as you suggest.

And for the record, I skate on lots of public sessions, I quite enjoy the additional challenge of trying to get all my practice in on crowded ice where I have to watch out for people and such. Freestyle sessions still feel a bit above me most of the time.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Hmmmm? I have no problem breaking in my custom Harlicks! Then again, I'm comparing between a stock Riedell and a custom Harlicks. I could tell 'ya that my stock Riedells in the past have been extremely difficult to break in and wears down quicker for me. I can't say much about the Harlicks breaking down since they're now about 7 months old. But I could say that I had almost no break in period... two weeks initial break in (not that I'm not tempted to go ahead and jump... they're THAT comfortable for me!) but Harlicks specifically told me to hold off on "deep bending" with the boots for about a couple of weeks. I'm certainly not doing triples. In fact, I'm about the same level as Casey on jumps and a bit ahead on spins and MITF...

To each its own, I guess.... *shrug*

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I do so agree - we need to get out there and skate! When I was a very small girl, I was taught that "bad workmen blame their tools" - and while really ill-fitting or unsuitable skates do hold us back, we can probably do a great deal more than we think.

What an image!!!!! Sorry..... but that really made me laugh!

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Oh god! I didn't realize how I wrote it until you quoted it! HAHAHA that's great! Can't think of any other time I ended up so humoured by my own words!

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Hehehe, good for you Casey! From my experience, it's always best to just focus on what needs to be done rather than focus on what went badly in the first place. "What if what if what if?" never helped anyone. You have to look at what you have, then decide if you can do better. Then you do it. Never regret anything.

Everything happens for a reason, ya know? Your boot fitting adventure was meant to teach you something, and only you can decide what that's going to be.

I've lived my entire life that way (I guess I must have inherited it from my mom ) and I'm much more stress-free than most other people I know, and I learn from everything that happens to me. One of my guinea pigs died this weekend, and at first I was devastated over what I could have done to save her. Then I realized that I did all I could in the situation I was in, and that she sacrificed her life to teach me something - she passed on in my arms as I was holding her and I realized that to me, the greatest gift you could give to a dying creature is to make sure that their last experience on earth is feeling loved. I felt I was able to give that to her, and I immediately felt better. Now I'm focused on her cagemate (who I'm afraid might have caught whatever infection she might have had) and to give her whatever I couldn't give the other. Wish me luck!

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"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )

And I thought only teenagers thought that way!



i didn't even catch that.

I had the same thought. Casey -- you are a stitch!!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

How do you go about sending boots back to Graf to be fixed?
Mine were warped from the beginning?

Where do I send them? I can't find the Canadian address for Graf or their website online. Help?!

Thanks

Brigitte

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"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

http://eastcastlemusic.tripod.com

Singerskates Sports Music Editing

Did you go through a pro shop or did you order direct? If you went through a pro shop, then they are the ones who need to send them back for you.

I don't know how it works in the USA or Canada, but down here we have consumer protection laws which override any "warranty" by the manufacturer. What's more, the consumer protection laws cannot be contracted out of.

If the product becomes faulty within a "reasonable" time (not always limited to the manufacturer's warranty - it can be longer than that), or is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold, or is not as it was described or the same as an example shown to the purchaser, then the purchaser can apply to the retailer (not necessarily the manufacturer or importer) for a refund or a replacement or a repair. What's more, the customer chooses which remedy (refund, replacement, repair) they want.

The retailer has to provide the remedy, and any battle with the manufacturer or importer is between the retailer and the manufacturer/importer. The purchaser has their remedy and is out of the equation.

Throwing in my 2 cents: I love Klingbeils and hated my custom Harlicks, which caused me a lot of agony for about 7 years. As soon as I stepped into my custom Klingbeils, I couldn't believe how much better they felt compared to my previous boots (Harlick, Jackson, and Riedell). It hasn't been completely pain-free (going to Skaters Paradise this week to get my bunion areas punched out again), but when I have to get another pair, I'll go back to Klingbeils. Best of luck to you, Casey. And, thanks for the laughs in your unintended joke about the woman with balls.

Skatingatty, your mailbox is full and I have a PM for you!

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

Hi, LoopLoop-
I got your mesg about the store moving to Maryland. I've made room in my mailbox here-- didn't realize the limit was 60 mesgs. I'm going to watch the Liberty Open on Sat., so between that and Fairfax Ice Arena, I should be able to get my skates worked on by someone experienced. Thank you!

Harlick seems to take my skating seriously, and as an Adult Skater you know how important that is. I love my custom skates and will always appreciate their special attention to accommodate my goofy warped feet and ankles!
Becca

Is Anna your coach? She stopped in and introduced herself to me in the gym the other day, and I didn't realize she was a coach until today when I was looking at the board with all the coaches on it, LOL. She was saying that she had really bad luck with her recent Harlick order (she decided to try Harlick even though she usually wore Klingbeil), and I guess now told Harlick to just send her a stock pair since they can't get the customs right at all, she figures they'll have a better fit. Seems like quite a nightmare! She was really nice, I wish I'd realized she was a coach when I was talking to her - I thought she was just another skater!

That kinda makes me wonder about the fitter's statement about never having problems with Harlick though, but maybe she's just a rare exception case to his usual luck with them. I'm going to go with my instincts and try Klingbeil next - I don't think Harlick would necessarily be bad, but, well, gut instinct is screaming out "Klingbeil!! Klingbeil!!". LOL. (*ducks from any impending flames*)

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve