I'm sorry that you're so cynical. I guess I don't care about medals that much, mainly because they're shiny and nice, but they don't call or e-mail you when you're down, they don't come to help when you're lonely, and they certainly don't take you to the opera when you're alone in a strange city.

1. As for that skater, she did a very nice Silver program at Mids. She looked a bit tired at the end--perhaps because she was busy earning a medal at synch nationals the week before . She had prepared to compete Silver at AN's, but a synch injury (yes, a blade sliced her leg) kept her from testing. Had it been me, I would have just done interp, where it doesn't matter if you're bronze or silver, but I'm not her. Hey, I had to go immediately after her and skated miserably. (I have to say I wasn't pleased, but my issues are with the rules rather than a particular skater, and as such, have complained to the appropriate channels so that the adult skating movement continues to succeed.) However, when I look back on my experiences there, I got a prize bigger than a medal--a dance partner who is also my best friend.

2. The Lake Placid video was crappy. However, I saw a lot of freestyle clips in it--all of the Bronze I girls, many Bronze II's and III's, Champ Gold ladies and men, etc. It's just that they finished it for Saturday night, so it looked more like a high school assignment than a professionally produced video.

I find it in poor taste when anyone lies or cheats...but it just seems so pathetic to do it as an adult skater. It's not like we are going to the Olympics, so what's the point?

When I am 60 years old and can no longer skate the way that I do, I would like to open up my curio cabinet and look at that one gold medal and say that I accomplished something great in my own skating and that all the creaking in my old bones, and crutches caused by debilitating arthritis was worth all of the years that I have pounded my body doing difficult jumps.

Oh, you would have liked Mids. As far as I could tell, everyone came home with a shiny medal that said "Midwestern Sectionals" on it. So I now have a Sectional medal for my curio cabinet.

Was this really necessary? You had to say it twice, too. Chris is a fabulous skater, and IMO his skating looks "quite right" to me. Just because you may not like some of his mannerisms or moves on the ice, doesn't mean he and the rest of the gold skaters aren't "quite right".

As a Gold level skater, I think as a group we look quite right, thank you very much.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Not necessarily. There are a few of us who worked our way into Masters from Gold, and in one case, Silver. I think we've just been fortunate enough to have flexible schedules, few injuries and the time to put in to work really hard to be competitive in that level.

yes, quite right for an adult skater, but not quite right in terms of what people expect when they are looking at figure skaters.. This is the difference between gold and masters skaters. Masters skaters have that polish that people associate with figure skating due to many years of high level competition and experience. Gold skaters do the tricks, but there is something missing.

Many adult skaters know exactly what their true abilites are, and many believe that they actually look like elite level skaters on the ice when it is far from the truth. You even have silver level skaters talking about adjusting their spins to the code of points????? it doesn't make sense.

When I skate myself, I think that I look like Jenny Kirk and Tim Goebel, but when I look at the video, I see Jenny Craig and Tim Conway.

This doesn't discourage me.... it makes me work harder to becoming a better skater , however reality has set in that I will never look like a masters level skater. I keep skating because I love the feel of the ice - to be able to spin and the feeling of flight - regardless of the fact that I don't resemble the skaters I see on tv and never will. I am a realist.

Grrr ... there are some silver-level skaters who can outspin the gold and master-level skaters!!!

Nah, I get what you're saying; I just couldn't resist posting on my forte, spins.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

My bad. I meant, "designed" for those who were elite skaters as kids. Masters was developed to separate those who were Intermediate and higher as kids from the rest of the adults. Obviously, as time passes, there will be more and more skaters who move up to masters--even those who started as adults. I know an adult-start gold (never took a test before 25 y.o.) who is working on intermediate/novice moves. Gee, wonder why?

I already have my Champ Masters music selected--and have since I was a pre-bronze--so I'll be there, unless they put a triple on the Intermediate test by then.....it actually took me three years to find because it's no longer being produced (have to go to the used cd places).

I saw more like four skaters in Bronze I in A.N.'s '04 who could have been Silver. And actually many of them had elements and polish closer to Gold than Silver.

I asked the gold medal winner from Bronze I why she was skating Bronze. She said because she does not have an axle/axel? (sorry it's late). She made no mention of intending to skate silver nor any injury. So which is it?

I was highly disgusted watching the finals of this event. Sandbagging was taken to a whole new level there.

kitkat.

I have met this Bronze 1 lady several times, she is very nice, and undeserving of your comments. She is also not cut-throat competitive as you would make her sound! I competed in this Bronze 1 ladies event last year, did NOT make final round, and saw that the bar had indeed been raised for Bronze 1. But this is a NATIONAL-level competition, not local. We just have to keep training to make ourselves better and let the chips fall where they may......

We stagnate when we don't have people to look up to.

-Kristin

Well-
I'll put in my two cents here. Once you test out of gold you go back to the standard track, as everyone knows. Let me tell you, no doing things like an "adult" , you meet the standard or you retry the test and that's all there is to it. Do the Novice moves like an adult, won't float. Power is a primary or secondary focus throughout the test.

I can tell you the posture and flow of the champ gold ladies was, across the board, improved. I don't see little kids skate like that and the ones I do see are all competitive at their level. Just because my jumps aren't flawless doesn't meant I skate like an adult, and as for the medals. The ones where I skate my best and do what I need to do, those skates mean more than the medals. And then there are the people I meet as I travel around skating those are much more valuable and cherished for much longer.

Even though I have two small medals that mean more too me than anything-- I did not earn them, but they were entrusted to me when I was 6. My grandfather won them speed skating in Central Park in new york city in 1912 & 1910, both he and my grandmother skated. They encouraged me even though as a child I was pretty bad. So in the end I guess it is what you value more, a bunch of medals, or a happy life w/ friends who share a common interest.

Off to the rink. la

Keep in mind you can go back to being an amature after one year of being out of the professional ranks.I started skating at 23, I skated in shows for years ( as bad as i was ), learned a lot of skating there, gave it up for ten years and then started amature skating for the first time as an adult in 2002. You can go back to being an amature.

Wow, has this thread taken a nasty turn. Whatever. Many of us agree that there are generalizable differences between adult-onset skaters and returning skaters, but there's absolutely no reason to drag Chris Williams and other skaters into this. And there's no reason to start insulting specific bronze skaters. kunduchaiko, what are your interests in the gold/masters men issue? From your join date and postings, it looks like you're gunning for something. What is it? You appear to have an agenda and an axe to grind.

My 2 cents on various points in this thread:

• I believe Burt Powley is guilty of grossly exaggerated self-promotion. I think it's tacky and unethical.
• None of us really know for sure whether he's guilty of competing while ineligible. If you care, contact USFSA.
• None of us really know if he used his exaggerated self-promotion to get a loan. It's not our business.
• The sandbagging discussion is old. We go through it every year right before and right after Adult Nationals. Yes, it exists. Shut up and skate.
• Disparaging other skaters by name, when they've had absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, is reprehensible. Shame on you.

That's not really the issue here. (Hint: the classifications are eligible/inelegible, not professional/amateur.) We all know you can regain eligibility once in your skating career.

The issue is whether he's INELIGIBLE, but claimed to be eligible so he could compete at a qualifying event.

[QUOTE=skaternum]That's not really the issue here. (Hint: the classifications are eligible/inelegible, not professional/amateur.) We all know you can regain eligibility once in your skating career.

The issue is whether he's INELIGIBLE, but claimed to be eligible so he could compete at a qualifying event.[/QUOTE

" Oh" I see. Well, I think Ill just show up and skate, Ill be in the gold mens skating for my self and with any luck stay on my feet long enough to do a good program . Im looking forward to seeing you all again and meeting new friends. Ill be going to Obertsdorf as well this year, that will be great Im not in it for the medals Im in it to entertain, the greatest prize is applause. see you there.

Boy, am I now getting more and more nervous. As a first time AN competitior (would've done LP last year - if I hadn't gotten married!) in Silver Ladies I, I thought I was right in the middle of the level, but now I'm second guessing that after hearing the advanced skills Bronze skaters are doing.

Thank you, skaternum. That was what I was trying to get at with my last post, but it apparently didn't get through.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Thank you times 1000!! A very smart and mature post. What a nice change.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Agreed! Point #1 stems solely from the questionable idea to post the altered article from Skating magazine. Points #2 & 3 are questionable, and I guess I am not lawyerly enough to want to argue these points in one way or another. Point #4 - so true. The notion of someone "looking like" a level-x skater is highly subjective... someone who looks like a gold level skater to one person may look like a silver level skater to another or a master level skater to a third party.

But if you're going to accuse someone else of sandbagging, you'd better be prepared to handle the accusations when they're directed at you. Same goes for misrepresenting yourself on a personal website...

Agreed that this thread has certainly taken a nasty turn. Let’s clear one issue up right now:

Burton Powley is eligible and unrestricted. He is guilty of no rule violations as far as U.S. Figureskating is concerned. So the accusations can stop now right? I feel kind of silly posting this on a public forum, but now hopefully people can get back to their own skating and put this issue to rest.

Enjoy YOUR skating!

Hear, hear, w.w.west! I can't believe this is being discussed yet again. I got involved in the whole discussion about Bronze 1 in Lake Placid last year (yes, it was almost an entire year ago, can't believe it's still being discussed!) and there were lots of rumors floating around just as there are about Burton.

The bottom line is, unless you have sat down and had a conversation, face to face, with any of these skaters, you don't have any idea what their situation is and you shouldn't presume to, much less discuss it in an online forum behind an anonymous screen name. And I mean a true conversation, not one in which you walk up to a skater in an accusatory manner and walk away mid-conversation.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anyone would intentionally sandbag. There may be circumstances that kept skaters at a certain level, or perhaps they just don't know what to expect. Every skater has their strengths and weaknesses, and like someone else said, what looks like Gold level skating to one person could look like Bronze to someone else.

I saw Burton skate at Mids and I thought he was amazing. In fact, while he was skating, someone said to me, Now THAT's what a Gold skater should look like. Bashing him or anyone else you think is "sandbagging" isn't going to make you a better skater or make you look better. It's only going to make you look worse.

I agree with Kristin--if you don't have anyone to look up to, how will you improve?

It's kind of crazy to think that a Gold level skater can look up to a masters level skater and hope to be like them. Sure the word GOLD should mean total refinement, but that is what masters level is all about. Christopher Williams and Nicholas Chou before him - even newcomers from North Carolina with double lutzes are what Gold really is all about.There is only a certain amount that a skater who has learned to skate as an adult or been an elite skater can do.

As my friend crudely put it - " with this man coming back again for one more title, the rest of those ISI looking b**ches can just forget it! "

w.w.west: "WORD!!!" (For those who are not into black slang, "Word" means "an affirmation of agreement...")

(No more Ms. Nice Gal!!! Jazzpants taking off her gloves and you long timers know I'm hardly ever mean...*AHEM*)

Okay guys! Listen up! If you guys are bashing the so called "true" Adult Gold Men, I feel so sorry for you guys!!! I happen to have met/know a LOT these Adult Gold Men (thru my coach and here) and trust me, they skate beautifully!!! They are a classy bunch of men and one of my main inspiration to work hard to get to AN!!! I can't believe I'm still reading this CRAP!!! (I'll own up to my poor judgement in responding to Tim by mentioning Chris' opinion on this. If I knew that I gave ammo for someone in turning into this bash-fest about Adult Gold skaters, I would have never posted that in the first place.)

For those who are bitter about the "sandbaggers"... there's always gonna be one or two people who sandbags (intentionally or not)... DEAL WITH IT!!! Figure out what you need to do to improve your skating so you'll skate better next year! And I say this knowing that I have never won a competition and will likely never medal...even at the pre-Bronze level! Do I gripe about it when I work my butt off only to find myself in last place? NO!!! I get back on the ice the next day and I work on what I need to work on to be better!!! And you wanna know where I learn this? Yes...from another (now former) Adult Gold Men skater!!!

And you Gold Men who are encouraging me to keep at it to pass Adult Bronze??? I hear 'ya!!! I hear 'ya, dude!!! I'm working hard and I want to be there for 'ya next year in Dallas. It's not an easy task to do, but I haven't given up yet!!! And it will be VERY SWEET when I finally get there, believe me!!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

And we will throw you the biggest party AN has ever seen!

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown