Layman's discussion on the USFSA Discussion Board about jump technique back in March was timely then and now for us. Even though Layman took criticism for being a "layman", the discussion about Jenny Kirk's flip and lutz jumps back in March make so much sense to me, especially given the experience we've had with our daughter this year thus far. Essentially, Layman's discussion was prompted by a note that Jenny was having hip problems again, which Layman related to her lutz and flip jumps. Layman observed that Jenny "slams her pick-leg down into the ice (after she has started to rotate)." Layman concluded that "[r]otating right off the ice without lift leads to injuries."

My daughter had a nice db flip and db lutz in January and February and then she had a major growth spurt (about 2 1/2 inches in six months, including another 1/2 inch in the span of 2 weeks recently and is still growing) and began to have trouble with these two jumps in particular. Similar to Jenny Kirk, she has right hip pain and occasional right knee pain, principally while doing the db lutz and db flip. Although her problem may have been prompted by the growth spurt, it is believed she can correct it with proper jump technique.

She has had 3 coaches look at these db jumps, all of whom agree that she is pre-rotating the jumps before the lift. As explained to us by the coaches, our daughter gets good height off the ice in her singles and they all believe that this height combined with her excellent physical condition should enable her to do nice doubles or triples, once she corrects her technique. The main problem on the doubles is that she is "pre-rotating" the jump before she lifts off the ice. One coach had my daughter doing single jumps again and "bell" jumps. This coach explained that she wants my daughter to remember how correct singles "feel" on the take-off and landing because the technique should be the same for doubles and triples. The rotation, which does not begin until after the lift, is determined by how tight the skater pulls in.

My daughter is also working on her db axel and seems so close to landing it. She gets excellent height and rotation on this jump. However, her problem here seems two-fold: 1) She is "scraping" the ice with a skip pattern before the take-off; and 2) is opening up her hip before the landing.

I'd love to hear from any other coaches and parents who have gone through "re-learning" jump techique with their students/child after a period of doing doubles with the "wrong" technique (particularly those who even experienced success at competitions despite "incorrect" technique). I'd also love to hear from anyone who has had similar problems with the db axel and managed through the corrections.

Ok - pre-rotating is a big problem, at all levels. It happens because the skater is trying to muscle the jump instead if using proper technique to get the jump to work. Sadly, this is a problem that I know all too well.

I am no coach - however I can tell you what my coach is doing to try to stop my pre-rotation. It is exactly what your daughter is doing - working on regaining the proper technique on the singles - that and slow walk-throughs of the jumps. I am far below your daughter's level, but using this method, in the last month my axel has gone from small, wrapped and ugly to a jump that had height, distance and form (most of the time ).

Anyway, good luck to your daughter -- it sounds like she is getting good coaching and will get over this hump soon enough.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

This year I had to relearn jumps :S And boy that sure was not easy! I think what helps me most is going over the singles again and walk throughs... It'll take time to get some doubles back but in the long run will help her when she's ready for her triples!

Good Luck to your daughter!

__________________
beks~
"winning isn't everything... wanting to is."

" the only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary"

"It’s not necessarily the amount of time you spend at pracitce that counts; it's what you put into the practice."

I'm not a parent or coach, but I am a skater on the Junior Silver level who is doing double jumps. I had to re-learn my lutz this year because 1. I was pre-rotating it (my problem was that my left foot never came off the ice before I did like half a rotation..not good!)
and 2. I was flutzing
One thing that I always heard over and over at practices was: "Pick that left foot off the ice!!!!" So my coach and I went and I had to re-learn a SINGLE lutz to get the foot off the ice and stay on an outside edge. I found that doing a lutz and a flip out of footwork helps me not pre-rotate the jump and stay on an outside edge or the lutz. After you pick in the ice, LIFT the skating foot off the ice right away for the flip and lutz. It helped for me...What also helps is re-learning a single and doing walk throughs.

__________________
Until later,
*Lily*

Relearning technique is majorly difficult only coz your body is so used to the timing that you've learned.

At the theory courses for the level 1 certification program here, the instructor mentioned that it takes 500 repetitions of a movement for an athlete to master .... and 5000 repetitions to re-learn a movement after it's been taught a specific way.

sk8mum...chech your pm...

__________________
do ya ever get the feeling that ms. bielman wishes she'd never done that damn spin???

That's exactly what I do with my lutz, it's a LOT easier to get onto the right edge when you do footwork into a lutz!

__________________
beks~
"winning isn't everything... wanting to is."

" the only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary"

"It’s not necessarily the amount of time you spend at pracitce that counts; it's what you put into the practice."

I have not had the problem to pre-rotating my jumps, but landing jumps on a flat foot and/or cheated (so falling sideways) on jumps that I am working on gave me a back problem that hurt on and off for over a year. As much as I tried to correct the technique, physical therapy was also necessary because despite what many think, technique may take time to change, and in that time the injury may worsen.

Interesting topic. I know I've been guilty of pre-rotating a lutz, but think I have that habit kicked finally. Anyhow, a skate mom at the rink told me the reason her daughter had her 2axel and several triples is because she learned the "Russian" way, and was specifically taught to pre-rotate. Just curious if this is true, or just one coaches method of teaching things.

"prerotating" can cause a whole lot of problems with a jump...not the least of which is the misallignment of the hips and shoulders, which will become reversed at the end of the jump...causing early exit and/or total loss of control on the landing...

simple basic exercise is to imagine that your left hand is openinig a drawer (directly in front of you) as you bring it into the chest and the right hand comes to meet it...you will feel like you're bringing the left hand straight into the chest...but will, in acuality, be following the natural line of the body as it begins to rotate with liftoff...

__________________
do ya ever get the feeling that ms. bielman wishes she'd never done that damn spin???