I searched the past threads for camel spins and couldn't find the help I need. Here is my problem:

When I go into the spin, it is somehow impossible for me to square my shoulders over my hips. I try to spin (counterclockwise) and for some reason my shoulders and head are turned/looking clockwise! Also, when I try to lead with the left shoulder and square my upper body, I pitch forward and that's the end of it.

I have done 3-4 good camels (so I know what a good one feels like) but that's it. It has been 8 months and nothing has clicked for me yet. My coach can't figure out my problem and I am getting really frustrated!! The last method was trying to shift my shoulders before I step into the spin so I was more 'aligned'. That worked the first day and then it never worked again!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Sasha Fan
Supporter of Alissa and Amber Czisny

I find camel spins much easier to do from a RFI 3-turn setup than RBI edge (crossover) setup because you don't have to force a change of direction. I do a deep, round RFI 3-turn, counting "1-2-3" on the entrance edge and "1-2-3" on the exit edge. I exit with shoulders level, with my knee deeply bent just like a deep jump landing edge. Towards the end of the 3-turn exit edge, I look over my left shoulder to spot where I will be stepping out onto the entrance edge of the spin. The idea is to aim the spin entrance so taht you stay on the same circle you're already on with the 3-turn exit but make the circle even tighter (I think of giong around my own left shoulder and creating a concentric circle).

When I push off onto the LFO entrance edge, I plant the left foot firmly in the ice, bend deeply, then push around to the left, leading with a round, gentle sweep of my left arm & shoulder, as though I'm in the middle of a low, round table and I'm sweeping it with my chest and left arm. When I push off onto the spin entrance edge, I think, "parallel, round" to remind me to make a deep, round edge and keep my chest, shoulders and free leg all parallel to the ice, i.e., horizontal. You need to keep the left shoulder up instead of dropping it or you will do what I call a "camel dive."
I hope this helps somewhat!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

flo was just helping me with this the other day. The thing she said that really helped was this: As you step out of your back crossover onto the FO edge (LFO for you since you spin CCW), look back as if you were trying to see your right heel behind you as it leaves the ice. That totally helped me. (Of course, your right heel won't stay there as your right foot rises up into the free leg position, but that's where the heel is when you finish the back crossover and are stepping onto the LFO edge.)

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Hey I have no credentials other than I'm working on my camel too and that I'm a Kibitzer . With that in mind, if you are stuck looking to the R, then you may be lifting your free hip too high and trying to spin with your back facing into the circle rather than your side. This stacked hip, aka star camel, is very pretty but very hard to do. I also find this position to be significantly easier to hold in a spiral because your weight is all stacked up right over your skating side but it is more unstable. So try your LFO spirals with your free hip up and then hips flat and see if that corresponds to what you are doing in the camel. FWIW
Lyle

JessicaLynn, could you post a video of your attempts? I think someone might be able to spot the problem.

I wonder what the position of your free hip/leg is upon entry to the spin?
If it's not trailing behind, that could cause the CCW upper-body twist to be lost.
Maybe you're dropping that free hip/leg, which in turn takes the upper body "away" from the spin entry.
Make sure you point your (free leg) toe and turn your laces/knee out to the side as soon as you step forward.

Practice doing very sharp FO or BI spirals on the left leg. Pick a hockey dot and do the spiral in a spiral (conch shell) pattern, making the circle smaller and smaller until you end up at the center of the hockey dot. You'll probably do a very nice turn and pick up the spin right away. The practice is important, because it strengthens the body alignment.

A few other, random tips:
Make sure you stay over your skating knee - think "nose over knee."
Don't let your face stretch out too far forward on the entry - you'll look like a turkey. LOL
Don't "Lead" with the left shoulder, "Twist" the upper body towards the left shoulder.

The "Lussi Method" is to step forward with the RIGHT shoulder in front for CCW camel spins. I don't like it myself, but it would help you get the upper body position for a few practice drills. I have one student for whom this really helped get the proper upper-body position. Try it.

Stay down on a bent knee for at least a whole revolution of the camel spin.

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That's a really nice mental image - I'm going to try that with one of my skaters. She does the back crossover/hold and has a habit of bringing both hands to her bellybutton before she flings the left arm forward. I remind her EVERY TIME to not "touch center" before she steps into a spin. This is a good idea. Thanks.

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I'm assuming "look back" means looking over your left (leading) shoulder, not your right shoulder, right?

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Yes, that's correct. (And for CW skaters, that means to look past the right shoulder instead of the left.)

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Hi,
Something a coach told me that really helped - I have very open hips and tend to not square - get into your spin and touch your right hand to your left knee. You'll be square. After you get the feeling of where things should be, you won't need to do it!

Glad I could help.

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Thanks, everyone! This is all great advice. I am skating Tues am and will see if someone can record my camel.

Hopefully I will do a camel correctly and the video will show me doing a good one!!

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Sasha Fan
Supporter of Alissa and Amber Czisny

No, you want to do a bad one that perfectly demonstrates the mistake you've been making so that you can get lots of tips to fix it for good! (Then again, I'm one of those people who wants to make all of my mistakes in front of my coach so I get my money's worth in my lessons, LOL!)

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Ok, finally got someone to record the spin for me! It has been improving since all of your advice (thanks everyone!) so it actually 'spins' now (at least more than it used to!!). But it is still weird, slow, not centered, I fall out of it, etc. I watched the video and I do something weird with my right arm....

Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lmb0Kzuid4
I would greatly appreciate it if anyone felt like watching a giving feedback

(I did not get it on video but... Earlier in this session I did a pretty decent camel with enough speed and centering that I was able to go into a forward sit and then up into a backspin!!! I was so excited that I didn't know what to do. But could I do it again?? NO )

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Sasha Fan
Supporter of Alissa and Amber Czisny

That's great that you're making progress with this spin. I find that I have more trouble with this spin than the other ones that I learned before it.

In your video, it looks like you could use more knee bend during the FO entrance to the spin. Also, during the entrance and hook and spin, be sure to keep the free leg behind you--don't let it come out to the side or it will pull you out of the spin. (Twenty guesses as to why I know this? )

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You're falling to a LBI edge because your right leg is too far "in". Arch your back, squeeze your butt and reach your left hand to your right foot.

An exercise for the proper position: Stand with your left side to the boards. Lean forward and put your left shoulder on the boards with your arm laying flat on them. Now raise your right leg and place it on the boards. Feel how your free leg is almost crossed behind your skating leg? That's how far back it needs to be in order to keep yourself on a FO edge. If you lower your free leg, it should be in a T position with your skating foot.

Hey Jessica!

Nice progress on that camel! It's coming along great.

My coach taught me to not sweep the left arm across so early when you step fwd into the spin. The front arm shouldn't "sweep" until your skating knee straightens (straighten knee & sweep front arm across at the *same time.*). This will give you more speed.

Enjoy!
Kristin

That is a really nice camel!

I'm finally getting to where my body understands where it needs to be for the camel and how the step into the spin needs to go back into the circle.

I'm glad I'm having this epiphany now, since coach wants to change my combo spin to a camel-layback-back sit for the next season!

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I've got mad salchow disease!

Thanks for the comments. Everything totally makes sense... now I want to get on the ice and try it again!

Mikawendy, any mental 'tricks' for keeping the free leg behind? I can't seem to grasp that concept Glad I am not alone!

Vesperholly, great board exercise. I never realized the leg had to be so far crossed behind.

Kristin, thanks for reminding me about holding that arm

Hopefully soon I can get a really great camel on video to show you all!!

Thanks again!

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Sasha Fan
Supporter of Alissa and Amber Czisny

Wow, this advice is really great. My camel is SO annoying and I've worked so hard on it and felt, today especially, very HOPELESS. This advice gives me hope that I CAN make it better. I can't wait to try out everyone's tips. I wrote them all down to bring with me when I skate on Thursday.

See if someone can lend you Champion Cords to try on your camel. They completely cured my camel--I was immediately able to tell where my free leg was and keep it directly behind me.

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

Your camel isn't bad at all. I second the suggestion for keeping your right leg behind you.

I always try to tell myself to think of it as being crossed over my standing leg. I'm not sure if that makes sense...like I want to keep my right foot pulling towards the left across my standing leg. It seems to work for me and keeps the body position tight so that it spins faster.

Of course the free leg doesn't actually cross but it helps it stay at least behind me. I always have to think in extremes and then *maybe* it will end up where it is supposed to be...

Also, I noticed on the one attempt that didn't spin at all, you started the sweep motion early, then stopped, then tried to finish it once you hooked into the spin. The spinning side shoulder needs to "lead" the spin once you rise up all the way

I'd like to piggy-back on this thread.
If the free leg has to be that far behind, is there a strategy for not dropping the opposite shoulder (so for a CCW spin on L leg, how not to drop the L shoulder)? Also, should you open the hip of the free leg & have it higher, or keep it parallel to the ice?

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Katz

Saved by Synchro!
I was over it, now I'm into it again !

I just focus on keeping my left arm high and my chin and eyes up. I've found that my shoulder tends to follow my eyes, so I make sure to keep looking up and a little to the left as I push off onto the entrance edge.
As for the free leg, you want to turn the leg out a little but not so much that it tips you over to the left and makes you drop your shoulder. If you are flexible, then you need think of keeping the leg just parallel to the ice or you will lift it too high and throw yourself off balance. If you are not very flexible, then you may want to lift it as high as you can. But whatever you do, focus on keeping it just parallel to the ice until after you have hooked the spin. Pulling your leg up too quickly will always pull you off balance.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Okay - had to let everyone know that I read this thread a few days ago and my first chance to try these tips was this morning. I really concentrated on the left arm movement (I spin ccw) and keeping my right leg in a position where I could glance at it over my left shoulder (almost feeling like it was crossed in back).

On the very first try, after about 6 months of working on a camel, I got 3 beautiful, solid revs. And then did it again. And again. I felt like crying!

You people are beautiful.

Wow, way to go Stacy!!!!!!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics