I think it would be a good idea starting in the first year of change with only the Pre-Prelim FS/Adult Pre-Bronze FS level to not allow more than one level higher in Moves In The Field (ex. Adult Pre-Bronze FS may have no higher than Adult Bronze/Preliminary Moves In the Field)and each year afterwards change it for the next level (ex. year 2 Adult Bronze FS/Preliminary FS may have no higher than Adult Silver/PreJuv Moves In The Field). 3 year of implimentation for Adult Silver/PreJuv FS no higher than Adult Gold/Juv Moves In The Field. 4 year Adult Gold/Juv FS no higher than Intermediate Moves In The Field. But once you make it to Masters FS/Intermediate FS that's where the rule should stop and Moves In the Field should be wide open with at least having the min Intermediate Moves In The Field.

What do you think of that?

I think it's obvious that someone who would have Junior Moves In The Field competing in Adult Pre-Bronze/Pre-Prelim would beat out someone with just their Adult Bronze/Prelim Moves In The Field hands down no matter if the person with the Junior Moves had landed a single jump cleanly or not.
Reason is that with only have 4 jumping passes at most at the Pre-Prelim level you're in the air for maybe 6 seconds out of a 1:40 min program.

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"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

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Hi Debbie,
I didn't mean that a absence of jumps at bronze would not not make a difference, but that they were not the deciding factor in my case. When I competed in bronze I figured that everyone could do the same jumps I had - including a lutz. There were then no specific jump requirements for the test or competition. I think there were two trains of thought then, skaters either packed their programs or whatever they did, they did well. There were 5 groups and I believe the top 4 went to finals. Out of the 75 or so in the group, the final group skaters had pretty similar jumps. I believe I won my group and was second overall because of the basic skating, connecting elements and edges.

I think you would be great in interp. I skate it now because I feel that with the balanced program rules and other reasons, there's little time to actually "skate" in fs programs.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Hi, are you me? I realized a couple of weeks before Easterns that my bracket was a three turn. I was SURE I was doing a bracket - nope, shallow three turn, ha! Well, it felt like a bracket...yeah.

I'll move way up in MIF before I ever pass, or take that Silver FS test. I could see myself passing Gold moves long before testing Silver FS. Because I'm not bothering with the axel until that flip and lutz are solid (though I suspect my axel will come easier than the flip and lutz...I'm an edge person and not a toe person). Then again nobody will ever think I'm sandbagging because the size of my flip and lutz will make it quite clear that work is needed.

My coach wisely always reminds me of the importance of basic skating skills, and says that it's the basic skating that makes the difference. I think that's what helped me out at easterns when I screwed up some other things (fall on loop, sit spin much higher than usual). I may not have a lutz, but I tend to skate with some power and flow.

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Revised Official 2010 Goals checklist
Skate __
New boots __
(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

I think it's a great idea to include MIF in the interp levels. And as a secondary item....what about if you pass a certain level of moves (silver, perhaps?), you can compete interp at ANs without a freestyle/dance test? It would help attract new skaters into ANs before they pass their bronze free....and help to get them to compete bronze once they pass.

As for the lower number of competitors this year, we have to remember that we had a huge economic dropoff, a presidential election, and huge layoffs right when the AN announcement was released. I knew in October that we'd have a smaller ANs....I think quite a few folks stayed home because taking a week off of work (or buying a plane ticket to Grand Rapids) was out of the question. Solo dance increased the starts and making ANs a financial success, even with challenges that were far beyond the LOC's control.

As much as some want to say that Adult Nationals is a competition, and "get over" the idea that you're not competitive.....the LOC still has to turn a profit, which is almost 100% dependent on entry fees. If there is a significant number of skaters (as jazzpants has so elequently described) dropping off the competitive track...it is very important to find out why, to see if there are tweaks to be made so that we keep ourselves viable.

Remember that when we look at pure numbers, that the age groups have changed twice--in 2006 and 2009--dramatically enough that the comparison may no longer be valid before those changes. We now have Gold III large enough that they often have qualifying groups, and it seems that Gold I and II have gotten significantly larger in the past few years.

My suggestion was to "seed" the freestyle qual groups slightly, to make one group "lower" and one group "higher," based on moves/dance tests. I think that it wouldn't affect the final results of the event, but it could encourage new bronzes/silvers to enter ANs rather than think they aren't good enough. The sooner we can get them affected with AOSS, the better.

Is adults who have been competing as adults for a number of years suddenly finding that they can't compete at the level they've been at for years any different than the rest of skating?

Look at the bigger picture. Skating is a young sport. It's a sport that's constantly growing and changing. Look at any singles skater, dance team, pairs team, or synchro team from 10 or 15 years ago. Compare it to singles skaters, dance teams, pairs teams, and synchro teams today. (I can speak from experience--my skating ability when I was 13--prelim moves, no dances, but I had power, was good enough to make a top 5 senior team in 1994....that would not even get me onto a top 5 juvenile team today. Top adult synchro teams from the 90s look NOTHING like top adult synchro teams today. Kids at my rink competing intermediate do more difficult programs than what Dorothy Hamill won the Olympics with). The standard is higher at all levels, so why should adult skating be any different? It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Rochelle must have just passed senior (congrats!) because when we talked at ANs, she only had passed junior.
Brandy passed gold moves in January.
Caroline Chao (6th) passed gold moves in January.
Rachel Silverman, last year's Bronze I winner, passed silver moves last August.

I have more to add to this whole topic but I have to go skating and work on my senior moves.

From Rachel:

"Is adults who have been competing as adults for a number of years suddenly finding that they can't compete at the level they've been at for years any different than the rest of skating?

Skating is a young sport."

The point is Rachel, is that, yes we are different than the rest of skating. This is in part why the adult program was started because skating is NOT only a "young" sport.

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I see what you're saying, but remember, adult-onset skaters are not intermediate competitors, Dorothy Hamill, or Yu-Na Kim. We have a much lower ceiling. While kid/elite skaters have certainly pushed the envelope for the past 30 years, learning to skate as an average adult is much different than a 5-year-old with immense natural talent who can spend 6 days a week, 4 hours a day on the ice. I think everyone agrees that the MIF requirements have made adult 'skating' better, and I don't think that's what Blue is talking about. If the tests were much easier 'back in the day' and you could pass Silver w/o a loop (what was required on the Silver test, anyway?), then I can understand those who reached their ceiling at that level would be very frustrated today. That's not to say we shouldn't encourage skill improvement, but I agree with Blue that something should be done to give those skaters a place in the sport....I'm not sure why the new/old test disparity wasn't discussed when the tests were changed.

No one wants to discourage anyone from entering the adult skating ranks, but no one wants to discourage adults from remaining in the sport, either. Remember, adult skating was created to be inclusive, not set world records/firsts.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I don't think it's a good idea to limit moves test. What do skaters who can't do an axel, or can't get a camel get to do then? Are they destined to have to be dancers? Just like some adults really enjoy working on figures, others really enjoy working on moves.

Some adults are very talented at footwork and spinning but can't get that flip, lutz, axel etc. Should these skaters not be allowed to compete in freestyle?

As a PB skater, I think regardless of how many rockers/ counters etc a skater throws into their program if their cheated toe waltz only comes off the ice about an inch, they are clearly skating in the right level if they are bronze or PB.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
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I believe that Rachel was referring to the fact that skating, versus some other more established and long-lasting sports, is a newer sport (or "young"). Not a comment on the age of people skating is aimed at.

Anyway, I don't think everyone can just discount that the adult-onset skaters in Group I don't feel discouraged at times by the incoming age-up skaters. I started skating when I was 19. I will never look as smooth on the ice as someone who started skating much younger. When an age-up skater had doubles somewhat consistently by the age of 12 or 13 or 14, then stopped competing but kept skating even at publics, then ages up into Bronze or Silver I they do have an advantage over those of us that started later. And not just in jumps, but in footwork and spins and everything else. Their bodies were trained to work in a certain way at a young age - training older bodies to do the same thing just isn't as easy.

I'm not saying that I personally would be so discouraged I wouldn't compete - obviously I have and I do. I've even won a silver medal at bronze when I was 21, just after they changed the age restrictions. However, I have to acknowledge the fact that I also was competing aginst people that year that had generally not been competitive child skaters. I enjoy competing and that's why I go, but I do know some skaters that would be in class I that feel like they would be wasting their money by competing against people who just didn't take tests when they were younger (whether they weren't competitive at the higher level, were waiting to get all doubles consistent, failed moves, etc.) but came back at the lower levels in class I.

At the same time, I also recognize that while it is easier for these skaters to get back jumps and spins, not all of them ever will. Especially as they move up the age classes. I don't think there is a one-size fits all solution. It's great to say well, fine, you should be motivated to get the skills those other girls have, but for some people that's just not realistic. There's an element of ease and grace and fear that some of the child skaters just don't have (and likely will never have) that many adult-onset skaters do have to deal with. The adult-onset skaters will still be good or even great, but you can just tell the difference. As some of the higher age class people have pointed out, some people will never get above a certain level or element due to their own limitations. I don't see how it is "fair" either way - to change the rules specifically to account for child skaters or to change the rule specifically to account for adult-onset skaters. Either way it's hurting one group, when the whole point of adult skating is inclusivity.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

I think the concept of 'inclusive' is being misused here. Your typical Learn to Skate competition often has 3 or less competitors in each catagory. You can only divide this up so many ways before that's what you're left with. Sure that's 'inclusive'. On the other hand, a competition that has open enrollment is very inclusive on another level. There is equal opportunity to prepare in whatever way is necessary to be competitive.

AN is open enrollment and more then likely always will be. Being comptitive at AN is not the same thing as:
"discourage[ing] anyone from entering the adult skating ranks, but no one wants to discourage adults from remaining in the sport, either".

The question of being competitive at AN or not, should never be equated with pushing anyone out of adult skating. That's more a matter of what motivates you to begin with.

I agree with pairman - ANs seems very inclusive to me right now, especially with the addition of solo dance. It's an open event that any skater over 21 can enter, provided they pass the appropriate tests. Being included and being competitive are two different things. One does not beget the other.

I also think it's impossible to say what makes an event competitive from year to year, because of the ever-changing entries. Skaters quit, move up, take time off for family - you can never guarantee that what's competitive last year will be competitive this year or next year.

Thank you pairman2 and vesperholly for summing this up so perfectly. I agree 100%.

She hasn't yet - she's taking it (and possibly gold FS) at our club competition next month

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I've got mad salchow disease!

I agree - I was saying that if we changed rules just to help/hurt one group over the other and exclude or overly restrict certain types of people, that would hurt the idea of inclusivity.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

I don't think any one wants a guarantee of what will or will not be competitive from year to year. But in fact we are seeing a very real change in make up of the entries and the placements.

An "open" enrollment is not all that is needed for an inclusive event. And no one is asking for more and more events, but a reasonable review of the past and current test qualifications. It's at least a place to start so we know the numbers of skaters entering with what test levels. Add a relatively simple correlation with placement and we have the facts rather than guessing.
This could be used to revise standards, entry qualifications or encourage others to work on skills.

A knowledge of your target population should be the first step in any change. This is something that has not been done in far too long. And before we get the "just volunteers", the last time a comprehensive survey of the adult skating population was conducted, it was by me - a volunteer. It's very doable. I would rather see my adult committee, who represents all skaters, to first work on getting an accurate picture of the skaters they represent.

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I'm speaking as a "kid skater" who only got up to preliminary level as a teenager and never had an opportunity to compete then, and who has competed in bronze or sometimes "skated up" to silver as an adult.

I've only gone to Adult Nationals once, and I've only competed freestyle a handful of times at club competitions over the past decade or so.

My impression is that Adult Nationals serves several purposes: it's a championship event for the higher competitive levels. It's a season climax event for adult skaters who plan their training around competing. It's an opportunity for skaters in some of the less populated events (men, pairs, etc.) to *have* a competition with multiple competitors, which is not always possible at local nonqual events. In the more populated events it's a large enough field to divide groups by age and level the playing field that way. And it's a social gathering for adult skaters from around the country to gather with friends as well as to test their skating against other adults from around the country.

Also, much more than with kids, adults often reach a point physically after which we can't appreciably improve our skills, or certain specific skills, and may even decline, because of injuries or natural aging.

And with all the different changes to the adult and standard test structures over the decades and each adult competitor potentially having passed a different combination of adult and/or standard figure, freestyle, and moves in the field tests to qualify for a given adult freestyle level, there is going to be a wide variety of skill level, and of strengths and weaknesses within a general overall level, even among skaters who have tested only and exactly what they needed to pass to compete at that level.

If you also include freestyle skaters who have passed figure, moves, or dance tests beyond what was needed to qualify for freestyle competition, and/or who also compete in synchro, those skaters are likely to have a strength in skating skills compared with their freestyle moves.

(The discrepancy between skaters at the same test level would also be true of ice dance competitors who tested the adult or masters tests vs. those who passed the standard tests at the same level, and between dancers who skated, dance or freestyle, as kids vs. those who started as adults.)

There is never going to be a completely even playing field in adult events.

Definitely it is in the interest of the USFSA and of the US adult skating community to attract and retain adult-onset skaters as well as retaining kid skaters who grew up to become adults who still skate.

Is participation in Adult Nationals the best way to measure adult participation? That leaves out people like me who actively skate all year and enter one or two local competitions a year but rarely spend the money to travel to AN.

Is the prospect of participating in Adult Nationals the best way to attract and retain adult skaters, even those for whom even just passing the bronze or freestyle test would be a maximum freestyle accomplishment but who still want to continue training and competing and improving those skills they are physically able to improve while remaining within the general bronze skill level?

How about skaters who max out at silver because of the axel requirement for gold?

How big and inclusive can Adult Nationals get before it becomes impractical for the LOC? How many adult skaters would quit skating if they no longer had the opportunity to compete there now or no longer had the hope of someday qualifying (by bronze test) to enter in the future? Is the size of the adult-onset skating community limited by the practical limits on that one event?

Discrepancies in ability between test level and what it takes to be competitive at that level also exist in the standard track. Intermediate and senior are probably where we see the widest ranges, and regionals serve a purpose similar to some of the Adult Nationals purposes in allowing anyone who can pass the test to enter the big official event even if they know they don't have the skills even to break into the top half of the field.

The recent addition of test track events as an alternative to standard track is one way to address the gap between test and competitive skill levels.

Could something similar work for adults? Would it make sense to have "test track" or "limited" gold, silver, and bronze events that restrict the jumps and spins to those required on the respective adult tests and that may also limit the types of steps allowed or the figures/MITF/dance tests passed? And if so, would it make sense to include these events at Adult Nationals, as a way to include more adults in an evener-playing-field event? Let each competitor choose whether to enter the standard adult or limited adult event, and if they don't pass more tests they always have the option of switching to the other track the next year, or at the next club competition that offers both.

GO ROCHELLE!!! GO GIT 'EM SENIOR MOVES and GOLD FS pin!!!

Actually technically she passed in December of last year. (I have an old email that I've sent to her about the Gold Moves and FS test.) She had planned to take only the Gold Moves but was only given a couple of days notice to get ready to take the Gold FS test. Needless to say, that didn't work out. (But I fully expect that she will move up to Gold this year. Just a matter of when.)

You too, Brandy!!! Go git 'em Gold FS pin too!!! I KNOW you can do that and I know you want to!!!



Which segue quite nice to the topic about my situation... and why I had decided that I am taking a hiatus from competing...

Back last year at Skate SF, I had probably the worst skate of any competition since probably my very first pre-Bronze comp. I was clearly outskated by those who clearly had high levels of moves tests and a couple of ice dance tests. Needless to say, I was at the cellar in placement for both my technical and my artistic program!!!

The lesson after I had a brief talk with my choreographer as we were going thru my lessons on... you guessed it... CROSSOVERS!!! His very wise words to me was more confirmation of what I need to work on. (It was "Pretty much everyone is doing the same jumps and spins! It's how well you do those and how well you skate overall that differentiate those who are middle to low in the pack vs. those who do medal." So with those wise words, I had made the decision that I would work on Silver Moves as soon as AN is done. It was around that time that I fell in to a "skating funk" where I asked myself if it's worth it for me to continue skating, never mind, competing, given the work that I've done seems to not helped my cause.

I went into AN thinking I was gonna end up being at the cellar again or close to it, but had continue on working on my basics (crossovers, stroking, etc...HEY! What coach wouldn't turn down a student's request to work on CROSSOVERS!!! ) in prepartion for AN. Somehow I managed to get my "competitive mojo" back just in time for AN and I got in there and skated decently (well, decent for ME!) anyway!!! I was also working on Silver moves too, just so I don't get "bored" with it. I did very little work this year in terms of jumps and spins other than getting that lutz!

I still have a long ways to go... and I know that I'm on the right track in terms of my training, but to continue on to get to where I want to go, I really have to drop the competition thing again to concentrate on those elements. I am still skating, despite the unemployment situation and am doing my best under the circumstance in remembering the stuff that I was taught prior to AN and working on those MANY homework assignments. I figured when I'm gainfully employed again, I will go back to those coaches again and I would like to surprise them by showing them that I have been working on their homework assignments... all Silver Moves related, BTW!!!

Depending on the job, I may... MAY take up ice dancing too!!! I hope I can... but it's really dependent on the schedule and $$$! Besides, should be "interesting" to see if klutzy 'o me can do the Dutch Waltz... and the solo dances look like FUN!!! But I will NOT be back competing 'til the Silver moves are passed!!! There are stuff that I would like to be able to afford this year besides plane tickets to Bloomington, MN.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Very thoughtful post, Ellyn, thanks for that perspective.
I don't think that subdividing the current competitive levels at ANs would further the sport or increase participation in any meaningful way. Just because adult skating's goal is inclusion doesn't mean every adult should compete in a group of 4 or less to ensure we all feel "included" by medaling. Someone has to win and someone has to place last. I don't think anyone could possibly guarantee that everyone has exactly the same background or test level — just look at the variety in Silver I. Freestyle events are not compulsory moves events.

We're all adults and we know what competition is. Just like a child skater competing at Regionals knows that this event is the pinnacle of open competitive skating, so too should adults realize that competing at ANs is the pinnacle of adult competitive skating.

True....but Regionals, being the first step on the path to Nationals, are viable to US Figure Skating, regardless of the number of entries. Adult Nationals has no such attachment, and as such, relies on the entrants and starts for its viability within the USFSA. Regionals has the cache of grooming future Olympians, something that ANs does not.

There is a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. Why? Clubs are not bidding on them, mainly because they are not seen as money-makers. However, PCAS this year was very successful....over 150 skaters decided to take a long weekend in Vegas. But I have also seen Adult Sectionals be so small in that it ended up being a one-day event. The 2005 Mids folks had to extend the entry deadline twice just to get 80 skaters to enter, even though the Twin Cities has a decent number of adult skaters.

And as Ellyn pointed out, there are the number of adult skaters who either do not have the means or the interest to compete at Adult Nationals. They still provide a lot to US Figure Skating by testing, competing in local comps, becoming officials, and volunteering within their clubs. And traveling to social ice dance weekends....

Where this all comes together is that I have met adult skaters who do not see Adult Nationals as a realistic goal, even though they have the ability and resources. Whether it was an opinion from their own observations (watching Ice Network, reading lists like this one) or from clubs/coaches who see ANs as only for former-kid skaters, I don't know, nor do I have any idea how many more skaters like this exist. And that's my concern--we have a decent-sized population of skaters who want to compete at ANs, that qualify by tests passed, but don't because they think they can't.

I'm not saying we need to dramatically change the ANs structure--but we do need to monitor the situation and make sure that skaters aren't getting "lost" because of misconceptions.

I'm told the ISI adult competition is always huge when held in Vegas, and only so-so anywhere else. I think there's a trend in there somewhere.

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Great forum quotes:
On Falling: '...it doesn't matter, it's what you do AFTER you fall that's more important' ISK8NYC

Speaking of misconceptions, there is NOT a current movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals. And they ARE money makers if done correctly. In fact, AS has made anywhere from $5,000 - $12,000+

I'm not talking about how USFS looks at ANs, I'm talking about how skaters view ANs in the course of their competitive season/career. For most young skaters, Regionals are the peak of their skating.

I don't see any movement to eliminate Adult Sectionals, and I was at both the adult committee meeting at ANs and Governing Council this year. I think it just suffers from a lack of proper PR within the organization. Many clubs don't even have adult skaters, let alone competitive ones. I've tried to get my club to bid on Easterns, because we have 4 surfaces and an experienced base of volunteers, but they still look at me like "Adult competitions " Plus, Buffalo in February ... not everyone's dream desination. Where are the Florida clubs when you need them?!

Skating is most certainly a young sport. Compare our competitive history to other sports that have been around even for just a hundred years (track and field, baseball, swimming, etc) that have had the time and popularity to evolve and mature and you don't see changes as drastic as you see in figure skating over the course of just a decade. Particularly in ice dancing and synchro, the two youngest disiciplines.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Um, people have been figure skating for hundreds of years - and up until the last 50 (the days of Sonja Henie, to be exact), it was a sport for adults. The emphasis on the under-18 crowd is the new part of the sport. The only new part of adult skating is that people have discovered that "old people" can and do enjoy jumping and spinning and that there is money to made from encouraging them to try.

Again, the adult program was developed to encourage more people to take up the sport, whatever their age. It's not doing that now. So the Adult Committee needs to look at why (and it's not just this past year's economy - numbers have been declining for at least the last three to five years) and figure out what to do about it. Their efforts over the past decade have been focussed mainly on "improving the quality" of adult skating with the perfomances at Adult Nationals being the evidence of their success. In doing so, however, they've exiled a huge portion of the adult skating population, most of whom were the very ones the program was created for.

Even in the general skating popluation the majority of skaters are at the lower levels. For a long time, USFS has focussed their attention exclusively on the elite. Lately there's been a lot of emphasis on developing the Basic Skills programs. Now I'm seeing that, while Basic Skills numbers are growing steadily, the number of skaters transitioning out of Basic Skills and into full club memberships is dropping like Galileo's stones. Numbers of Pre-Pre and Pre skaters in Opens are declining. Whys should skaters enter Opens when they can compete in the cheaper "Beyond the Basics" competitions and pretty much be guaranteed of a medal. With the increased costs of Opens using IJS for the upper levels, they need the numbers of the lower levels to make their profits - and they're not getting them. That's why I'm seeing more and more Opens adding Basic Skills competitions to their schedules.

One last thought: I'm wondering how many of the adults competing at Adult Sectionals and Nationals compete at other local competitions during the year? I'm an accountant, I deal with hundreds of names and events every year, yet, looking at the lists from Adult Nationals, I see an awful lot of names I never see anywhere else. Which is a change fro "The Way It Used To Be". At one time, all the adult skaters knew each other; we saw each other several times a year at various local events (and not just the all-adult ones), we volunteered at club events and we cheered each other on at club shows and went to dinner together afterward. There was much more of an "One for all, all for one" attitude. Now, it seems as if people come in, skate and leave, and the medals are justification for all the money spent to get them.

And so much for my philosophizing discourse of the day. I really don't expect the higher-test under-30 crowd to understand. I can only take comfort in the knowledge that time will catch up with them too.