So last night I got in late after hanging out with some friends watching movies. I tried to get 4 hours sleep before I had to get up for the freestyle session this morning. No luck there - just rolled around in bed and couldn't get to sleep. Finally gave up at about 4am, and instead worked on drying out my skates which were feeling slightly damp even after airing out, plus touched up the blades in preparation for today's skate.

Took a closer look, and noticed that *both* heels are separating from the boot, but the right one (my landing foot) is substantially worse off than the left.

These are Graf Edmonton Special boots that aren't even 6 months old yet, and I'm not an advanced skater at all so I don't see how I could be stressing them that much. ARGH!!! What gives???

So then I ate a quick breakfast and prepared to leave. Checked my schedule, realized that the 6am freestyle was not available on Fridays, so I would have to wait another hour. Did so, then went to the rink. Was going to rollerblade to the rink, but feeling a bit weary decided to just drive and focus my remaining strength on ice skating.

Get to the rink, and there on the door is a sign taped up which reads, "No ice today, ongoing problems with compressor". ARGH! And I can't go to the other rink because I have *no* cash and no money in the bank after the checks I wrote to get membership and ice time at the new rink (which has the bad compressor today).

Decide to take the freeway back instead of fussing with stoplights. BIG MISTAKE - traffic was awful and I could have rollerbladed in less time than it took me to drive back.

This morning is definitely *NOT* my morning. Too many stresses at once, and I don't even know what to think about the stupid boots falling apart yet.

Could somebody loan me a bit of sanity please? Tea on the side would be nice, too.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Oh and I just looked a bit more - there's definitely a big problem with the right boot - I can wobble the heel left and right if I apply pressure to either side of the blade while holding the boot. At least the left one still seems firmly-enough attached, the visible separation is much smaller.

No, I'm not imagining it. I took some close-up pictures, which you can view here:
http://sk8rland.com/users/kc/picture...g-boot_problem
(be sure to click the "Full Size Original" links under the images after clicking the small thumbnails if you want to see the most detail)

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I'd take the boots to the pro shop to have them looked at...they definitely shouldn't be doing that. It's possible that the nails are working themselves loose.

Do you make sure you dry off the entire boot when you get off the ice? Sometimes that area can get pretty wet, especially if you're working hard on stops or spins, where you shave up a lot of ice. It still shouldn't happen, but maybe moisture is causing the separation?

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

A guy at my rink had his heels start to come off his boots (skates were 3 years old and very much used). They were Jacksons. What they ended doing was putting bolts through the boot into the heel and using epoxy glue. Seems to have done the trick as my husband bought them and skates in them recreationally with no problem. They just don't look as pretty if you look real close (they countersunk the nuts into the heels and epoxied them also).

Hopefully, they can fix yours nicely!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Or they can give me a refund, and I'll get the custom Teris or Klingbeils I wanted in the first place before the fitter talked me into these crappy things that are too big for me anyways (and that's even considering I bought a half-size smaller than what he wanted to order for me). These boots are only 5 months old - I didn't pay over $400 for the boots to have them pieced together with nuts and bolts (no offense meant to you, I'm glad the solution works for you, I just can't tolerate it myself).

I'm so angry at this point I don't think I'll accept anything less. I don't want a replacement pair that's going to fall apart in another 5 months. It takes an awful LOT to make me mad enough to be confrontational at all, but if they try to screw me over on this one, I'm probably going to explode.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Oh poor Casey! If I had a shred of sanity left myself, I would be sending it your way. Well, please have a nice hot cup of tea on me, anyway. What kind do you prefer? I'm afraid I'm out of most of the herbals, but I do have some lovely English Breakfast, and my favorite, SweeTouchNee.

Your Grafs should not be falling apart. They are a favorite of many elite skaters. I know several coaches who wear them and have put them to heavy use without that kind of problem. One has even worn them to the point that the lace holes are breaking, but the heels are still secure. I agree that you should be given a new pair, not a repair.

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I'm sorry that you're having a rough time this morning!

Try to work with the fitter to see what you can work out. I agree that 6 months with a boot is just way too short of time for the heels to come off. (Unless of course, you're doing a LOT of jumps and falling on your skates or not you're not properly drying off my boots, which I don't see you do....)

With damage like that shown in the pictures, I'm not sure I would want to take the fix either...

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yeah, you might have got the lemon of the batch. I'd push for a replacement set too. Like I said, the skates we had fixed were 3 years old and had been pushed to the limit.

Even with all of your jumping, 6-month old skates should NOT be doing that!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Update: I used my punch card and went skating at the nearby rink on a public session. I had a pretty good skate all in all, but while I landed some jumps just fine, I had crappy landings on others. I don't think this is so much the boot as me being paranoid of it, but who knows.

Anyways the upside is that that put me in much better spirits. I'm sorry for being so angry in my earlier post today...

The downside is that there is now a bigger gap between the heel and the boot on the right boot. Not a great deal, but a little anyways. This says to me that this is going to become a much bigger problem in short order - I can't just ignore it for long, unless I'm lucky and it hits a stopping point... The left boot didn't change at all, it's really quite minor in comparison.

I stopped in the pro shop there (this is not the same rink where I bought them) and asked their opinion - the fitter there looked at them and his first response was that it didn't matter since the outside where the split was wasn't where the heel was actually attached. I pointed out that you could rock the heel by pushing the blade though, and he confirmed it and agreed that wasn't good.

I asked him if he knew what the warranty on Grafs was, and he said 90 days. He also said that all the other manufacturers provide 1 year warranties though, so it might be possible to use that as an arguement to get Graf to rebuild it anyways. Heck, if I would have known they only came with a 90-day warranty in the first place, I probably wouldn't have bought them. I'm not terribly excited at the prospect of shipping my boots of for weeks on end, where they will probably just re-epoxy the gap, which will again separate later, but hey it's better than nothing.

I got over my earlier angry attitude of "refund or nothing!" - if they can be repaired well enough to last another 6 months then that's time I can be saving money up for new boots, which I don't have now.

He also suggested that the bolt that goes through the heel could be tightened if some special machinery was available to do it (which they didn't have), but I really don't think it's the center bolt that's loose, because then the heel would be coming apart as opposed to the sole above the heel separating from the boot - it seems to me that the more flexible leather of upper part of the boot was never sufficiently attached to the sole, and so as I bend and lean it's pulling apart.

Anyways I think it was really good to chat with another industry professional before going to the guy I bought it from - gave me a bit more understanding about i.e. what the warranty is, an idea to fix it, and I got to hear this first from somebody I'm not subconsciously disgruntled with for selling me an oversized boot.

I'm still not happy about it by any means, but I think I've regained my sanity for the time being, at least. ;-) Thanks for the tea, dbny! I quite like english breakfast though my personal favorite (as long as we're talking tea tea, not herbal stuff which I like too) is earl grey. What is SweeTouchNee? I shall have to try some!

Thanks for putting up with me, and wish me luck! I'm just going to continue skating as normal for now, since that will take me to the rink where I bought my skates most weekdays. The next time I see the fitter there, which should be in short order, I'll raise the issue with him and see what they can do. I kind of wish they weren't closed for repairs today and I had gone up there this morning all angry - it would have been a sight to see! (but then, I wouldn't have ended up quite so upset if they would have been open this morning...).

So, I'll most likely see the fitter on Monday or Tuesday. Please share any advice if you have any before then, so that I may go better equipped with more knowledge. Thanks a million! I really appreciate all of your support!

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Well I know quite a few elites who've gotten detached heels on Grafs. Grafs are just not good quality. People buy them because they are comfy right away and have virtually no break in period, but those same people also replace them every 6 months. Grafs also have a higher rate of defects than other brands, it appears.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but bring them back to your fitter!!! He got you the wrong size, he talked you out of a better boot- he's just not a good fitter and didn't give you what you needed. For that, I hope to GOD that if he won't exchange them and Graf won't rebuild them, you will get your next boots from another place next time. PLEASE!!!!

Meanwhile, I have to head to the rink but I'll look into the info you asked me when I get home- one of the names sound familiar but I want to double-check first.

[Edit: if your landing leg's boot is not secure and it MOVES, do not skate on it!!! Sure, it will seem like an eternity especially if they need to be shipped back and forth, but trust me, breaking your ankle is an easy 3 months off, and that can happen if it keeps shifting and something goes wrong, or if it gets worse internally and you don't see/realize it til it's too late. NOT WORTH IT!!!]

I'm pretty sure it's not water damage. I know the shaving sort of moisture, and on rare occaision I do get that up on the side of my boot, but it's almost always towards the toe. And yes, I always thoroughly dry my skates - usually that's just the blades, but I'll dry off the boots/soles too if they get shavings on them. I also always set my skates out to air except on a couple VERY RARE occaisions when I've forgot and left them in my skate bag overnight. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say my skate care is at least an 8.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Don't worry Stardust, I am listening, and do appreciate your advice, very much!! Even before this discovery, and even if they replace the set with a brand new properly-sized pair or give me a cash refund (I'd prefer the latter), there's no way I'd go back to that fitter for a new set of boots! In fact so turned off of boot fitters am I, I'll do nothing less than go to the Spiteris or Klingbeils personally to have them build skates for my feet. Customs may be overkill, but I'd rather have overkill than insufficiency.

((((((stardust skies))))))
Thank you for all your advice! You can bet the house that I'll be complaining about the improper size as well as the defect when I talk to him. This is all the motivation I need, and if they aren't willing to do anything at all, I'm probably going to get really angry again and ho! Then I will have a story to tell indeed, for better or worse.

Well at least I can take some small pleasure in sharing the experience with those whom I look up to.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Oh wow! I'm sorry! I've never gone through that particular fitter... heh, I got my skates on Ebay, so I didn't HAVE a fitter but, good to know. Yeah, in my mind, if I"m gonna pay around $400 for a pair of stock boots, they should either be comfortable and decent quality, or I'll just get customs for a bit more I got my boots cheaper, though... so, yeah.

I heard about the lack of ice... lots of jokes about swimming sessions instead I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience! OVA is usually quite nice

Casey...

Customs are NEVER overkill. They are expensive, true, but they are definately worth every penny. Get youself a pair of SP-Teris or Klingbeils. I got a pair of Harlicks... Kelly, who fit me, felt they were the best choice for my feet. And when I first tried them last Saturday I found out he knew EXACTLY what he was talking about.

Oh, yes the right boot needed some punching-out...they weren't perfect (at least the right one wasn't...the left one fit like it was, well, made for my foot. From what I understand, it is common for a pair of customs to need a little adjustment. But that's no big deal...the dealer (or maker if you buy them there) can easily deal with that.

Sssh! Don't tell him I was mean! I actually don't hold any contempt against him personally at all, I think he's a great person to chat with. But I have to agree with stardust and the rest who judge him to be an inadequate boot fitter. He is young after all - younger than me - and I don't know how much experience he really has fitting boots yet. Though I'll be plenty mean if they won't refund/repair/replace them, I think...

I still think it's nice - I got to skate there once at least! I certainly have no regrets about getting membership there. Problems like this happen at any rink - it's just that it was one more thing on top of an already bad morning.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

The same thing has happened to me and i had to get new ones...

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Figure skating should never be a sacrifice, when that's what it becomes, you know that it's time to hang up your skates...
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Sweet16*

Wow, 6-month-old boots already going through the wringer? That must be a nightmare!

((HUGS))

I hope that you get a good deal out of this. I have stock (although combination size) SPTeris and they're still going fab after 3 or 4 years. Obviously I don't skate nearly as much as you do, but you're still only doing single jumps so I don't understand how the boot could have deteriorated so much. Must be a serious defect. Wring the company for all you're worth!

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"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )

Oh of course I won't tell! I had a little problem with his sharpening of my blades as well (he put basically NO edge at the front of my left boot) though I think he seems to be plenty nice. It's ok! I know you're not really "mad" at him, just saying... sorry you had that experience! Don't be afraid to say things just cuz I'm here, I won't tattle

(though you might have to pay a fee haha jk )

Sooo....

Today when I got off the ice the fitter and his dance partner wer just getting ready to get on. I took off my skate and showed it to him, and he looked at it and pushed at it and said at least it wasn't as bad as his, which is rocking back and forth much more freely. I'd heard he was having a problem with one of his heels, but did not know if it was the same thing or how bad it was. He got his current pair right around the same time as I got mine.

He told me that they would probably replace them with a new pair, but I might have to send them off and live without skates for the meanwhile. He said he's not sure what his schedule is this week so he's not sure when he'll be available in the pro shop, so I just told him I'd catch him sometime. Not too hard since I'll be there most weekdays.

I asked him about the 90-day warranty and he said that was just a satisfaction guarantee and didn't apply to defects. He said they just replaced a pair for another guy who's had his for a year.

I've heard from a few people that these boots commonly wear out for higher-level skaters after a half year or less. Well I'm sure not high-level, but I guess that skinny as I may be, I'm heavier than the average skater because of my height.

I contacted Klingbeil yesterday with an inquiry - Donald Klingbeil took a look at my pictures and wrote back confirming that this is a common problem with Graf skates - granted he's a bit biased but claims that many shops were pushing Graf because of the high profit, but while many top skaters were given free boots, very few are still in them. He believes that they'll be disappearing from the boot market. To quote, "They had a good gimmick but it didn't work."

I'll be giving them a ring tomorrow to ask a whole bunch of questions and discuss things. My mind is made up here - my next pair of skates will be custom Klingbeils, it's just a question of when.

I don't yet know if getting a different size of boot in exchange from Graf will be possible - I don't even know if I want to try.

Why wouldn't I? Well, if I get a replacement pair that's the same size, I can sell them along with a perfectly-matched set of blades to somebody who will appreciate them more, and use whatever money I can get towards a new pair of custom Klingbeils. If I get better-fitted Grafs, I'll need new blades anyways, and they may well wear out in another 6 months. Theoretically I could just keep having them replaced, but I don't really want to break in a new pair of boots every 6 months - yes, Grafs are pretty comfortable from the beginning, but it does take time to get the leather to start bending, and still...

I think I'm going to push for a refund - the pro shop can have a brand new pair of skates in stock just like they did before I bought them, and I'll have the money spent on the boots back so I'll be happy. I'll still need to sell the blades then, but that's better I think.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I have heard through the grapevine that Graf was having quality control problems. I have also heard of at least one shop that stopped dealing in Grafs whenever possible because of that.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

The only choice in skates at my home rink is Jackson and some Reidells (lower quality)..... Although my Jacksons are fine, it would have been nice to have been offered more of a choice. And, everything has to be special ordered, as they carry nothing in the store...except hockey skates.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

You can always special-order custom skates through the dealer directly, or stock boots through catalogs, although you'd have to know your size (maybe the dealer can actually reccommend a stock boot size with a foot tracing, maybe you can even order it from them? I'm not certain, worth a try though).

Certain shops have deals with certain dealers, so they must push that particular brand. This is DEFINITELY true with shops that carry Grafs- Grafs have deals with a lot of skate shops to push their skates. And they did in fact send them to elite skaters for free in hopes those skaters would switch- I know cause a lot of my friends got them. Most of them hated them and threw them out after a few months, only to go back to their old brands. If a dealer is pushing a specific brand, it's best to go elsewhere as they will be biased or even tell you stuff they don't believe in to push the product. I know, because one of the dealers at a pro shop I used to go to before ordering direct admitted to it when I basically laughed at him and asked him what he was smoking when he tried to convince me to get Grafs.

I think that there's nothing more important to a skater than good boots, and you should try every option before picking one, and this is definitely something for which you do not want to compromise for sake of easier availibility or cheaper price.