I had an idea this morning after looking at Morgail's video of her Silver Moves in the practice thread for this week. Wouldn't it be weird and interesting to have your moves judged by an off-ice panel who were looking at a video of you doing the Moves?

It could be set up like the IJS with several cameras so that you could get different angles, slow-motion and close-ups. You would take your test in some secure location, an official team of videographers and it would be just like a test session except the judges would be off-site, like at US Figure Skating headquarters where a select panel of judges (selected by US Figure Skating, not by you, the test chairperson or some other too-interested party) would judge the test.

I wonder how that would go over? Then everyone across the country would be judged by the same panel of judges, who would have this as their full-time (paid) job, have more time to judge each move and maybe have more time to educate themselves and everyone else on what is passing standard. You could still have 3 judges and have a 2 out of 3 pasing, but it would really change the whole testing dynamic, wouldn't it?

I realized that there are pitfalls - you can't really gauge the speed of the skater doing the Move, nor feel the strength of the skater the way you can when you are right there. You would have to be really sensitive to the flow of the skaters on the ice as well.

I'm not suggesting that we go back to judging the Moves like figures, where the tracings had to be perfect, etc. (although yes I think we should never have eliminated figures).

Anyone have any comments? I have a lot more ideas about this and will share them if anyone is interested in this discussion. Thanks.

icedancer2 - trying to think outside of the box (or the lobe, as it were... )

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Interesting idea. It would end the regional judging differences (ie. judges in state A are notoriously difficult, while judges in state B will pass anyone).

But it would also let the judges be more picky since they could replay your skate. The judges were conveniently not looking when I almost hit the boards at the end of my bronze power 3s ...but on video, they'd definitely be looking! There would be no more "I lucked out" moments.

My thoughts exactly... and then as a tester you wouldn't have to be out there worrying about someone on your panel who you know is notoriously picky or whatever...

Well, that is certainly true (I also had one of those moments on my test last weekend - strangely enough, no one appeared to notice it... but the general Move was so bad nobody noticed the whacky flaw - they were too busy writing down all the comments!).

But as a judge it would end those moments of "What the heck was that?" that sometimes come up - especially on dance tests where something is happening down in the corner and you can't see it from the side because of the barrier or because there are two people testing and it's hard to see in that instant exactly who/what happened and, well, it all becomes that much more difficult.

I had suggested at one time that the judges use binoculars so they could see what what going on better - no one took me up on it.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Very interesting concept you have here, but don't you think that a lot of tests would get backed up as the judges would only be able to look at a certain number of videos per day. I'm sure that the USFSA would also get backed up too in regards to processing these tests as well. I would think that skaters would have to wait quite some time before being notified of a pass/fail result.

Also, how could you guarantee that the judges actually watched a tape? I mean, you'd definitely have to trust that they're going to do the right thing...and then there's the issue of communicating between judges - well, not so much communication, but influence. You know how at regular test sessions, judges aren't supposed to be influenced by their peers, but can talk about a particular move if there are issues with it, such as a reskate? I'm not sure skaters could trust most judges to keep that confidentiality with each judges' scores.

I second that! Oh, how I miss figures. I've had the pleasure of actually being able to do a little of figures (never finished them though because they were on their way out...) and MIF (passed Senior in 2005). You can definitely tell the skaters who took figures. There's just a better quality of skating (edges, control, lean, hip/free leg position, etc.). I'd love to see figures make a comeback, but that's highly unlikely.

Good point. But if it were a full-time real job, then it would be like a person who worked in quality control - their job would be to watch videotapes all day with a team (hmm, this is starting to not sound do-able, but maybe) -- you could have different teams - Moves judges, Dance judges, Freestyle judges and a few Pairs judges and the person could either judge one discipline for a week and then rotate to another "judging service" or take a week off after one week on and having another team come in. It is all staring to sound way to complex and way to expensive... hmmm - that's the problem with being a visionary - it all costs money (and time...)

Valid point, which is why it would have to be done as a team - but maybe have an overseer who would make sure that there were no outside influences... (uh-oh, now I'm thinking that we could judge using computer programs and eliminating the human factor altogether - and what would that do to our sport.

I am starting to see where coaches that have done figures are sometimes able to empower their students with that better quality of skating, so hopefully all is not lost, but I agree, the level of skating I see sometimes is overwhelmingly not so good (apparently to some people, even my skating has suffered!* see my comments in last week's practice thread).

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I'm not from America of course, but I'm still appalled my toeloop was passed with the rating it was passed with. I really suspect the judges weren't looking or something cuz no WAY should a toe waltz pass as a toeloop (I pre-rotated it even more than I usually do on the test).
It's not that I mind passing a test. It's that that sort of gross errors in technique should be caught and sifted out immediately, before they get worse.

Video would definately clear that up. Also, it'd be more clear to skaters why they passed or failed too I think.

Well, then add to the issue of this type of judging the cost of mailing skaters back their videos...

Well, instead of a video, how about sending in your test via the internet (sort of like an in-house usfigureskating version of youtube... then you'd have your DVD in hand to watch for years to come... -- I mean, even back in the early '90s I have tapes of myself testing dance - it is an education to watch that, let me tell you!!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I might be wrong, but I think with ISI for the high level tests you CAN mail in a tape if there is not a judge available locally. The idea isn't that odd.

However, I think it would be difficult to get ice time. If you didn't have a "test session" when everyone had to test because that's when the judges were there- how would you get the ice clear? I spent practice today dodging skaters so I could run through all my moves for the test. Imagine if that was your tape!

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

That's cool that ISI does it that way I guess! Not such a novel idea after all...

BUT there could still be test sessions - I wasn't thinking that you would just do it when you could get free ice time - there would be all of the video equipment, videographers, etc., instead of judges on-site, but the test chair and all of those other people would have to be there to make sure it all goes smoothly, etc.

I guess it's not such a good idea after all. Oh well, my moment of brilliance on this matter has definitely passed.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Or you would have to request for it to be mailed back and pay for it. Kind of like traffic fines over here in the Netherlands, if you're photographed speeding, you're automatically sent your ticket to pay - if you're not sure it's your car (sometimes, the car plate isn't read correctly) you can request the photo.

That would make it difficult if you wanted to take two tests the same day (i.e. Pre-Bronze & Bronze MIF or Juvenile MIF & Juvenile FS, since one is contingent on the other). And since you wouldn't really know how long the delay in receiving results would be, you might have to take a test before you felt ready so you would try to meet a deadline for competitions. And we would miss the chance to ask the judges for immediate feedback so we could be better for the next test or the retrying of a test.

And if you choose the "I'm submitting a tape of myself testing" rather than the "special center where you test" -- there are ways for that to go wrong: editing your best elements from different sessions (but wearing the same clothes) or having someone take the test for you.

As for the "place where USFS has testing done" -- it then makes testing MUCH more expensive, if you include travel costs... and I would want my coach there... and parents would want to be there for their kids tests. So it sounds like they'd have to travel from rink to rink at major events, buying more ice time, increasing the cost of testing. I could retry a test several times for the cost of an airplane ticket or an increased test fee!

But it is interesting to think of "what might be". Keep thinking "outside the lobe"!

OK, I admit, I'm biased, but I actually like having it "live". Besides, as a judge, I like to feel I can encourage skaters if I see one test where they weren't as good as they had hoped, and I see them on the ice in the next couple of weeks and tell them they're looking better. I also use the sound to help me decide if some elements are passing. I've seen some shaky-looking 3-turns in the field (could be nerves?), but if I don't hear any scrapes, I credit the skater with being able to do the turns.. and sometimes that is enough for me to pass the element.

And for ISI testing, I think it's the top 3 FS tests (maybe dances and figures too.. but I'm not sure), can be submitted on tape, if you don't test them at a major ISI event.

I also find that at times I can assess a lot about the quality of a MIF by listening to the sound of the skater executing it. And not just scrapes but the sound of the stroke, or the sound of the tempo of the strokes.

Often one can also tell how well a MIF is being skated by observing the skater's posture/core or the knees/ankles, not just the tracing on the ice. For example a well-executed 3-turn or bracket has a certain look in the body.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Yep, I completely agree. I once had a judge say she could tell just by listening if a test should pass (not that she would NOT watch.. but it was an interesting concept). I know the tape could not do justice to the sound.. and as you point out, probably would not do justice to body positions.. since the perspective would be so flat-looking.

I do think that use of well-constructed video would be great for judges' training, to augment or supplement the actual live trial judging.

The video might not necessarily help in teaching an assessment of power and flow, but I can see uses in demonstrating poorly executed elements. Preferably constructed by skaters who actually are experiencing difficulties with the elements vice more experienced skaters trying to deliberately skate the elements poorly.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I think this is a more realistic idea than my original one - I often come back from a test session thinking, "What is it that they were doing wrong?" - so I try to discuss it with the other judges or go to my coach and say, "I saw this on a test" (and I demonstrate what I think I'm seeing) and she will try to parse out why the skater is doing whatever it is and then make it into a lesson for me by pointing out how it could be done correctly.

I find this happens more on the lower levels or on the in-between levels like Intermediate and Novice...

And I know she's seen in all inthat she has been teaching for, like, 50 years!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

And sometimes it's not just one or two obvious things that leads to a test being marked "retry". It's the whole picture. So for example on Pre-Juv MIF, the alternating forward crossovers are on the low end of acceptable, and the alternating back crossovers are about the same. On the 3's in the field (both FI/BO and FO/BI) about half the turns are before top of lobe, or the turns may be at top of lobe, but the lobes have inconsistent shape and size within each side/edge. Then the bulk of the "power" on the power pulls appears to have come from the intro steps, i.e. the skater has very little knee action and there's a fair amount of arm and free leg movement. Finally, the 5-step mohawk sequence is acceptable.

So then in final assessment, the overall impression comes down to a borderline test. So then I quickly review my impression of the test, and if I think that it's going to be a very hard slog for that skater to reach the next level (in this example, Juvenile MIF), I will re-evaluate my comments and points awarded to mark the test as a "retry" at .2 below passing average. IMO it's not always fair or best for the skater to pass a marginal test, and then it's that much harder for the skater to pass the next test (assuming MIF tests here... FS tests are generally much more clear-cut, especially at the lower levels).

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

So you reevaluate/change the scores you gave to ensure they will get a retry? That makes it sound like the scores you originally gave as you saw each move would have put the skater at a pass- even if barely. That seems a bit unfair. What does their ability to do the NEXT test have to do with passing the current test?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Marginal tests are always the most difficult and it's often a judgement call as to "is the skater capable and having a bad day" or "is the skater just not quite soup yet at this level"

Is it fair for the skater to eek their way through a test and then rack up 4 or 5 retries (or more) on a next higher test? Or maybe quit the sport entirely in frustration after 2 or 3 retries?

Or is it fairer for a skater to get a retry on a marginal test, work a bit more and retest and pass with a good to strong result, and have less trouble on the next higher test?

Any test (MIF or FS) is a demonstration that the skater has mastered the skills being tested. Mastered in terms of the quality expected at the level being tested. For example, at Pre-Juv 3s in the field, edge quality is defined as the "bilateral ability to control turns and skate on flowing edges" but at Juvenile, the expectation for edge quality is "good control and sustained edges with equal lobes and no major subcurves." Continuing to Intermediate, the same focus is defined as "Increased implementation of knee/ankle flexibility and body lean to achieve full ice coverage with depth of pattern."

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I actually think this is a good idea. Consider that, for coaches in Canada, they have to submit video'd lessons for their evaluation as a coach, skaters submit videos for potential international assignments and the entire skate curriculum is available on video, there doesn't seem to be a drawback to videoing tests and sending them in. If they can show the power and the flow to teach it, why can't they see that to evaluate it?

Except one. It would be fiendishly expensive. Coach videos I know are about $60 to send for evaluation and to take a test at a local club is about $10, $20 if it's a freeskate and they ding you $5.00 for a club fee or whatever, there would have to be a good reason not to go to a test day.

However, if you are in a really remote club where they fly in the dance boy and the judges for a test day twice a year and tests are as a result $100 plus, a video alternative might be a suggestion.

Well as a judge, I start each test with a blank test form in front of me and the belief the skater is going to pass the test, otherwise the coach and skater would not have put in for this test. But, I don't put down a mark for the first element until it is completed. If it's marginal to start with, I usually won't put down any score... or I'll put it right at passing, and hope the skater is just nervous and will improve, giving the skater the benefit of the doubt. I also write a lot of comments.

If the second element is also marginal, but slightly better, I will usually put THAT element right at passing and say the skater is getting into the test... but if several elements are marginal, I don't want the skater to think some of them are of passing quality when they are not actually. So yes, that's why I write test scores in pencil... so I can change them.

And I want the skater to have a true reflection of how they tested on that particular day. Otherwise they will come back on some board or talk to their friends and are likely to say "The judge really liked my first element, better than my others, even though it's my weakest element on the test." Then if they have to retry the test, they don't keep working on that element "because the judges already thought it was fine".

Like many other judges, I want the skater to pass the test, but I also have to be realistic about the skater's abilities on that particular day. I want the skater to know what I thought they did well, and what I think they need to improve on before they either retry that test or start working on the next level, since MIF are designed so the skater builds on earlier skills to learn and exhibit the skills on the next tests.

And personally, when I see a marginal MIF test, the overall deciding factor for me of whether I think a skater should pass a certain test is the question "Is this skater ready to start working on the next MIF test?". And I know the skill-levels I will be looking for on the next test level up. Is that skater capable of understanding and carrying out the basics of those skills? So I agree with Jenlyon60, that the next test has a lot to do with my final overall decision on the outcome of the test being taken... especially for MIF.

I hope the reason the skater is testing is to show they've mastered certain skills.. not so they can say they've passed a test and buy the little patch. I know as a skater, I would love to just have the judges pass me on all my tests.... which would prove I could skate. But since I don't have the skills to pass all the tests (yet -- but I'm still working on them!), I don't deserve to pass and need to keep working on gaining more power, deeper knee bend, more extension, deeper edges, etc.

But I'm not testing the next level up, and may not plan to! That's the point - if my skating, today, meets nationally accepted standards, even if only just barely, then I should pass that test, and worry about my next level up when I get there. If it doesn't, I should be asked to retry.

I know it's different for adults, who may not test very often anyway, but I do think the principle of this test, not the next one, should apply.

However, I do agree that if the skater doesn't, overall, look like a Level 3 or Level 5 or whatever level they're testing, skater, then a retry should be given, even if there was no specific element you'd ask for a reskate on.

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Mrs Redboots
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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Generally a borderline test looks like the skater has not mastered the skills for that level and thus does not look like a "Pre-Juv" or "Level 5" or such skater.

There's a difference between a truly borderline test and a test that has 2 or 3 really strong elements (for which the skater is appropriately marked) and 1 or 2 not quite up to par elements (again, for which the skater is appropriately marked). Much of the time the very strong elements will hold up the rest of the test and the skater will pass (it may depend on how egregious the issues were with the weaker elements).

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

This is my point. A skater should be judged on the test they are taking- not the next one.

If a skater is marginally passing- that's above the pass level. If it's "not good enough" for mastery of that level, then USFSA needs to raise the passing standard!

I realize that there will always be judgement calls- thats why they are called judges, but it seems wrong, to me, to CHANGE the calls you while made watching to ensure someone won't pass because they only just met the passing standard and the judge thinks they won't pass the next level for awhile.

Skaters who scrape by one level, and then put up four or more fails on the next level need to talk to their coaches and ask them why they are being put up for tests they aren't ready for, not be held back on a test where they DID meet the passing standard- just didn't exceed it with flying colors.

Just my opinion though.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

(note: I realize being a judge is a difficult and thankless job (thanks to all the judges btw) I'm not trying to argue, just have a conversation)

But if they don't look like they mastered it- is it really borderline? If they really look like they haven't mastered the level at all- isn't that a straight fail?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)