hi everyone, i'm new here.

i started skating 4 years ago and it's really made a difference in my life. i have a few questions - anyone know what helps get the transition from the forward camel to the back camel? also, how do you learn to trust yourself and really lay back when you're doing a layback? finally, why can't i get that damn axel?! thanks for your help!

Some things that helped my camel change:

Keep your back down during the transition - there is an impulse to rise upright after finishing the forward camel.

Push hard with your left foot (CCW) as you switch legs. The transition should be quick but not rushed. Take your time as you learn it and then speed up.

Swing the left foot out and around after the push to the b camel - it should be turned in when pushing then lead with the heel up into the b camel position in which the free foot should be parallel to the ice, instep down NOT toe down.

Keep your left hip down, if you try to stack it "on top" of the right hip you will lose your edge and fall towards your back on the right side.

Once you hit the proper camel position, FREEZE. Even your arms. The camel position must be tense and strong to hold. If you loosen at all it will fall apart.

Strong arch in your back, straight legs and a turned-out free foot will make this a beautiful element.

Ves

I can just about make the change but cannot maintain the camel on the other leg, especially not in a spin. I fall out after one large rev. I've no idea how to make this back outside edge into a spin.

Coach said to push off from standstill to gliding forwards in the camel position and hold it straight. Do it with both legs.

It might help with holding and controlling, but it doesn't help with the change!

(((Fan))) I'm with you on that axel thing.

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MEL
Absolute Skating

Something that has helped me in back camels is to really agressively plant your toe and not be timid about pushing off (actually around) with the other foot. Once you are in the position think of using the muscles on the back of your leg to keep the camel position taught.
I love laybacks. The trust comes from practice and understanding why you won't fall over with a proper position. The key to a good layback is the balance. Your hips, which are pushed forward balance your back shoulders and head, which are back. Look at any good layback picture and draw a line up from the spinning foot. You'll see that it goes forward at an angle, not like the other spins which are pretty straight.
Try the position at the boards, and get your hips forward to touch the boards, and hold on!
have fun

The trick to a gutsier layback:

Balance (push those hips forward to counter that parts of you that are behind you) and a nicely centered spin. Only lean back once you're well-centered.

bcamel:
The transition from forward to backward is difficult. If you are learning the bcamel this way, maybe you should try to do a bcamel as an isolated element first. CCW: do a bcamel from a RFI3 (like a basic backspin). Once you have a strong bcamel, doing in combo becomes much easier.

Kay

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(((Kay)))
On the LFI 3 turn entry into the camel, at what point do I go into the camel position, and where should my free foot be a) before the 3 turn b) after the 3 turn?
Is it exactly the same as the upright backspin, or am I into the camel as I'm exiting the 3turn?
I'm confusing myself now......

My problems with this entry are much the same as the change foot, in that I can't spin in that position, rather I do back outside edge and collapse or stop or tip forward.
It is SO frustrating.
I've worked on all these ways of trying to master the backspin for months and months and months.

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MEL
Absolute Skating

For back camels, if you're a righty like me, make sure you keep your right arm up. Especially if you're falling to an outside, keep it up through the whole transition as well, and make sure you're stepping onto pretty much a flat. Also, don't push too far out with the left foot (again CCW) or it will slip and not give enough speed.

For laybacks, I think you just have to get comfortable with them. That comes when you get the timing right and a nice, centered beginning. Also, the faster the spin, the easier it is. I prevent dizziness by not focusing on anything while I'm back-I much prefer zoning out like I'm looking at one of those magic eye books with the 3D pictures....anyone know what I'm talking about?

Axels...I really believe that the best thing you can do for your skating is get a good axel. If you plan to go on to doubles, it just makes everything so much easier. That said, I really had to concentrate to land my axel. I had a nasty habit of landing on the wrong foot, and I had to think, in the air (which was the tough part), about my landing. I didn't do many preparation exercises for my axel. The ones I did do were waltz/loops, backspins, and nice big waltz jumps (lift and airtime). You have to try different things...I spent months just doing the same thing wrong. Try jumping higher, snapping in, feeling your rotational position, a different preparation, or anything just to change it up a bit.


Hope this helps......someone somewhere with something!!

I'm not learning the back camel but I am working at the back sit. My coach taught me to bend your right knee a little more deeply. I think of it as a press. On the left side press down more firmly and press down and away in the stroke into the back sit. Keep your right side still and bring the left arm acros. Bend a little more on the skating foot and press forward. I get success doing it this way. Of course NOT when my coach is watching me. Good luck on both the back camel and sit!

Chico

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Can I assume b/c you wrote LFI3 that you spin CW? If you enter a bcamel from a LFI3 you will be spinning CW on the left foot. It is a lot like an upright bspin. IMO, the bcamel is the key to a decent back scratch spin. However there are some differences which are primarily related to entering the camel position.

This is how I do a CW bcamel:
1. Approach the LFI3 with a wide stance. Push into the LFI3 with the right leg. Immediately after the push, the position begins to take shape.
2. The right arm sweeps wide similar to entering a forward camel. The torso also begins to dip forward.
3. At the apex of the turn, the toe pick will hook the ice (like a forward camel). At this point the body should be tilted forward into camel position. The free leg lifts presses hard into position. The free leg movement is not a swing it a very strongly controlled placement.
4. The tension created by the combination of hooking, arm sweeping (which places the torso into position as well as creates rotation), and leg placement creates the spin.
5. The hips should be open as in a spiral, torso slightly open too.
6. To exit, bend the skating knee and stand upright while pivoting the hips closed. This should consume about one rotation. (This is well described and demonstrated in the Lussi video) This gives a burst of speed and places the body into a perfect bspin. (This is actually how I learned to do a "good" bspin. I could always do a better basic bspin from a camel than alone)

Good luck w/ it. IMO, if you have a good forward camel, you can do a backward. The principles are the same and the hook is actually easier. It is also easier to do well than a backspin of comparable quality.

Kay

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Thank you Kay, that has all been filed into my brain.
I think I had been "flinging" my free leg around and that was what knocked me off before I even started.

My forward camel is ok, but not very fast.
My spiral, skating on the left foot, is rubbish in terms of controlling it, so I may have problems maintaining it in the back camel.

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MEL
Absolute Skating