Hi List

I wonder how many of you are also inline skaters. It's clear that once you are inline and ice skater when you go back to ice you can almost FLY... so it would be a real nice and clever alternative to push limits a bit further.

I hear, but have no real concrete source, that some Eastern European ice skaters may have been skating on both to achieve better results..Id like to hear about it.

Thank you all.
Zerio

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Well I have inlines, but I can't do much in them I remember once I slept over at my friends the night before we were going skating, and we went to bed at at about 4, and got up at 6. We were skating around the conservatory (on our inlines, not our skates) before breakfast. When we got on the ice, I fell flat on my face because I'd got used to leaning slightly further forward on my inlines, and then went and leant on my toepick

I used to do inline skating sometimes, but I have now completely given it up because the last time I skated on wheels, I came back to the ice and suddenly doubted that I could do all the things on the ice that I hadn't been able to do on inline skates. I had to spend the entire session just getting my confidence back! I also just find it boring to skate in inline skates because all I can really do in them is forward stroking and crossovers (and outside spread eagles and Ina Bauers once I'm warmed up enough). I can't do jumps or spins in them, and it's too scary to do mohawks and back crossovers because of the danger of rolling over the front wheel and banging my hip on the concrete!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

The transition gets easy if you do it more often...I inline and quad skate from time to time (not all that often though), and can do spread eagles and 3-turns and hydroblades and waltz and loop jumps (on rental skates). Can't spin though...I want to get some Pic frames for that eventually...

In my opinion it doesn't make ice skating easier except at first it feels like it does because skating on unrockered wheels works a different set of muscles than ice skating does because it's so much harder to turn the blade.

Falling is also quite different - on land you want to roll, on ice it is important that you do not for the least impact.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I use PIC skates about once per week to supplement limited ice time. They have a rockered set of wheels so it feels much like ice skating- but it's still different.

I've found that because rolling resistance is greater with wheels, I have to bend my knees more to keep from falling forward. This is great practice to strengthen the upper thighs, and has translated to better knee bend on the ice.

I've got some of the 3-turns down pat on the PIC skates. Because my local roller rink doesn't have us change direction, mohawks and 3-turns in the standard CCW direction are much easier for me.

Sorry for the grainy, poor video (our local roller rink likes dim lights), but here's a link to an RFI three turn on the PICS...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/...3_on_pics2.wmv

You can also clearly see the rockered wheels at the end of the video when I skate up to the camera to turn it off.

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Bill Schneider

I always love your videos because you think of new ways to film things (like holding the camera in a spin, or in this case, setting it on the ground for a better angle)...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Thanks, Casey. I wish the quality of the last one was better. The cheap digicam doesn't have the lens speed I wish for, but it's fun to try this stuff anyway.

I've also tried novel video perspectives that just don't work - like tying to make a video of my feet looking down as I was doing some MIF moves. Against the plain ice background, you can't even tell that I'm moving! It's just shuffling feet.

I shouldn't do anything that encourages looking down anyway!

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Bill Schneider

Hah! Great minds think alike. I just made a few like that today. Check out the ones starting with casey-feet at http://kc.sk8rland.com/video/2007-01-11/

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I find that when I go from ice skating to rollerblading, my balance is off on the inline skates because they're wheels, not edges.

I rollerblade once or twice a year, borrowing my oldest DD's skates.

I can't stand up straight on her skates, nor can I hold an outside "edge." The wheels look worn down on the inside "edges." Is it easy to change the wheels, or should I take them to a skate shop?

I'm intrigued by the Pic skates, but I don't think I'd really use them - I don't like falling on pavement or the roller rink surface. My knee still hurts from four weeks ago.

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I have pic-skates....the dust is growing on them! Have not been in them since last Feb. I think. I was doing waltz jumps and all singles(even lutz) and doing 3 jump combos. I had even made some axel attempts and some 2footed 2sals. Some aspects of pic skates I like. I think it helped with my speed and most jumps. I always had a hard time changing loop jump technique. I dont think I will go back to them...IMHO they are good if you absolutley have no Ice available and want to do some sort of skating. I think as you get more advanced you will want to stay away from them!

HOWEVER...... I do know a young girl who has all her double jumps on both ice and pic-skates and can land 2axel on ice....so you never know!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

It's very easy on my PIC skates. I've even changed out a wheel at the rink with my foot still in the boot!

The inside "edges" do go first, and you should rotate the wheels periodically to even out the wear. I don't do that often enough, and my PIC boots are VERY broken down, but I don't take inline skating as seriously as ice skating. It's mostly exercise.

Because I change back and forth from PICs to ice regularly, I've gotten used to the differences in the two types of skates. I do remember some muscle memory confusion when I first started on them though. They are different.

For example, while I can muster a few revolutions in a spin on ice, there is no way I've come close to that on PIC skates. Three turns are more difficult on PIC inline skates too - but if you get them PICs, 3s on ice seem easy.

And NEVER try a hockey stop on them. I'll guarantee that you'll fall!

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Bill Schneider

Hi

I sold my inlines as I found that there was absolutley no comparrison to ice skating. After being on the ice, inlines were just too restrictive and felt damned dangerous

Andrea xx

Ok I have a lot to say on the subject, and instead of takling your ears off, I'll just make some genearal comments:

I can't stand regular inlines anymore after starting figure skating on ice. I use inline speedskates though, and for me it's a very good complement to ice -- but given their hugely long wheelbase and zero rockering, your edges don't curve at all, and they're no good for artistic skating. In what follows, if I say speedskate i mean inline speedskate, and figure means on ice.

Because of no rockering, however, (and the limited ankle support) in-line speedskates are very good for teaching balance. On a rockered blade (wheels or ice), when you are slightly off-balance, you can edge, and this pushes you back into balance (the 'riding a bike feeling'). On the speedskates, you learn to balance your weight precicely so that your center of gravity falls on the tops of the wheels. Basically speedskating *improves* my balance for figure skating, while figure skating alone, means I'll have to do a couple of days of catchup when I go to speedskates (edit: this is no longer true. I guess I'm good enough on ice now that my balance is fine when I go back to inline).

Paradoxically, speedskating feels much more like figureskating to me than other inline activity. This is because you usually don't use edges on ilnines and you certainly don't feel them the way you do on ice. Proper speedskating technique requires you to pay good attetntion to landing on your outside edge, and in this way kinesthetically 'feels' more to me like pracitcing figure skating. I like it.

Obviously it's way good for your endurance and power.

Figureskates, OTOH, make it very easy to learn the double-push technique, which is an advanced technique that's used by all the elite in-line speedskaters. It's basically an edge-pull but with the free leg held behind. Ever get tired on your skates, and find that when you are stroking around for fun, you land your skate on an outside edge and push *in* a bit (like a partial crossover) before switching to an inside edge on the same foot and pushing out? yes? no? Well that's double pushing. There's a lot more to it of course, but practicing edges and power edge-pulls and the various ways of getting speed out of them really helps in-line double-push technique.

Pavement sucks. It's got cracks, rubble, hills, slows you down. Ice is soo pristine. After a while you get used to it. I still avoid skating on roads or even bike-lanes on roads as much as I can. Find a good bike trail or park that's closed to traffic. Wear a bike helmet (something ice-skaters are not used to I guess: they'll wear knee and wrist protection, but forget the helmet. You can go as fast as a bike, and are less stable -- use a helmet).

Braking is another issue, and it's worth taking a lesson or two to learn how to do it. Using the brake is quite effective when you learn it properly (your weight distribution will feel aproximately like you were doing a stop with your stopping foot crossed in front on an outside edge). The "wrong" T stop (dragging inside edge), works on inlines, as does doing sculls to slow down, or the speedskater stop, which is setting the free foot down on a slight inside edge about twice-shoulder-width, and absorbing energy from it by bending your knee and also pushing out while you let it track-in towards your skating foot. This takes energy and is tiring, but OTOH your muscles are a renewable resource, and is cheaper than grinding down your wheels using other stopping methods.

Changing wheels is easy. In fact you should rotate them (move the left to the right skate, inside edge to outside edge, front and back wheels to the middle position) aproximately about the same (or fewer) skating hours as you'd sharpen your skates. It's not like changing the mounting of your blades or anything. You just need the right allen-wrench, and there's no way to mess it up.

Some links that may or may not be helpful:
http://www.skatecentral.com/custom/a...te.primer.html (Basic info including stopping techniques -- tip when reading this page, click on the pictures; they take you to additional pages with more instruction on that aspect)
http://www.skatecentral.com/page13.html More articles by Eddie Matzger, an amazing in-line speedskater, skating advocate, and coach of skaters at all levels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGOn-BX7YGo video of proper speedskating technique. (She's actually doing a drill to train her ice-speedskating technque, so she's lower-down than you should be on in-lines, and she's using a longer glide-time than what's optimal for the rolling resistance on inlines. But if you *think* in your mind you are doing the exagerated stroke she's doing, you'll be doing the right thing in actuality).
http://www.nettracing.com/step1.htm Advanced (but y'all are figure skaters, so you can handle it, trust me!) drills to teach the double-push. Well worth learning, (although it's hard to do so that it actually is efficient and fast -- for me about as hard I'd say as learning a decent back inside three turn that doesn't scrape -- something I'm still working on after a year). If there's anything that compares to the fun of backwards crossovers, it's squeezing seemingly effortless speed out of a double-push.

*The* book on speedskating. For both in-line and ice speedskating, as well as some off-ice drills and weight exercices that might even help you with your power for figure-skating. Even if you don't want to *speedskate* on your in-lines, I'd strongly recommend looking at that book because it will help your technique for either skating for fitness, or for getting where you want to go to do your artistic skating.

OK I know that was all very speedskating biased, but I personally like keeping the two skating mediums separate: ice for figure, in-line for speed. If I ever get the bug to artistic roller-skate, I'll probably try quads ('old-style' skates with two wheels on each side), not in-lines.

Final thought: the biggest technique difference I find between stroking for figure skating and for speedskating is the arms, especially on crossovers. The hunched-over posture is extreme, but in practice it's more about squatting down deeply on your knees, a good habit for power stroking and power crossovers even in the more upright figure-skating posture. Speedskating doesn't want extension of the free-foot once it's off the ice, but up to that point it teaches to push with the back of the blade (not the toe) and to extend the knee fully into the stroke: good habits on ice as well.

OK, I've made my case. Hope I can convince someone else to enjoy inline speedskating as a complement to figure skating.

If I move the left wheels to the right, wouldn't that move the problem from the "outside edge" to the "inside edge?" These are really good, hand-me-downs from my niece. I doubt they've ever had the wheels rotated or replaced.

I think I'll start with new wheels and rotate them as I see wear. I think these are too far gone to get away with the switch now.

So, where do I buy wheels?

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Online at a skate specialty store would probably be best as they have all sizes and hardnesses, but sporting goods stores generally carry them. I suppose Paragon Sports downtown would be good too.

If the wheels are *really* worn, it would be a problem, but otherwise if you rotated them, the natural motions of skating wear the inside edge, so if the worn side faces out, over time the wheels will even out.

Worn wheels aren't bad. They will slow you down a bit, which is a good thing while you are getting the feel for inlines (and braking!). Inlines aren't quite as sensitive to blade placement as ice skates are, and the preferred placement for fitness/fast skating is with the blades slightly *inside* so that you naturally want to hold a slight outside edge. Rotating worn wheels will do exactly this.

THERE ARE WHEEL SIZES? This is getting complicated...

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I have two sets of wheels for my inline skates; softer indoor wheels for a plastic sports floor, and harder wheels for the great outdoors.

My indoor wheels last forever. The mold flash at the center line has dissapeared and they now have a matt appearance instead of shiney. But the symetry of the wheels is still perfect to the eye and I think they actually work better than new. I occassionally clean the bearings, but a new bearing set for a pair of skates only cost about $15.00.

My outdoor wheels are toast in a couple of months. They require rotating every couple of outings. I not only move them from left to right, but also front to back.

I have two sets of skates: Pic frames on Jackson boots & Salomon fitness skates. I don't like figure skating outdoors, so I almost always use the Pics on a plastic sports floor in the arena from April to September. But if there were ice, I would not be using the inlines.

The Salomon fitness inlines are nice for double push skating, both indoor and outdoor. They are not as extreme as inline speed skates, but they do have an extended wheel base and larger diameter wheel capacity. The larger the wheel, the faster you can go and the easier it is to roll over irregular surfaces. I get into a speed skating posture with these inlines. I particularly like high velocity cross-overs at the arena ends. Figure skating has helped me hold long powerful "edges" while doing this.

Here's a video of me trying to do an 8-step Mohawk on pic skates. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdI6x4EiH6o
My timing and body position has improved a lot since this video, and the fact that I was able to practice during the otherwise unskatable summer months, points to the benefit of using Pic skates when ice is not available.

The wheels don't rip, nor do they slide (except when I don't want them to). I found I had little or no spin and jump timing was so different that I just stuck to MIF.

I started out on inlines (standard recreational pair), then moved to the ice, then got Pic skates. For my first several years as a skater most of my time was on Pic skates. There are a lot of things I like about them, including that it is just fun to skate outdoors on a nice day, right in front of your house, w/out having to worry about ice times and getting yourself to a rink. I agree with other posters that they are good for conditioning and to build up your speed. As an ice skater, I do feel that I am very fast for my level.

For figure skating moves, I like the Pics a lot for basic stroking and crossovers, 3 turns, mohawks, and the single jumps through the flip. I have tried and come close to the axel and 2salchow, but I'm just not willing to pull in and commit as much. I've done lutzes on the Pics, but then started to have bad falls on them on the takeoff (!), so I stopped doing that. They're also good for spread eagles and other gliding edge moves.

I don't like the Pics for spins at all - I feel it really changes your technique entirely and I blame them for my lousy spins on ice.

I agree with the previous comment that you do get better at making the adjustment if you do it more. I used to go back and forth between inline and ice a lot, and would take the first 3-5 minutes to just stroke around and find my rocker and edges, then feel fine. Now that I use my Pics a lot less, the adjustment period is much longer. The rocker does simulate the feel of ice, though. It is more the edging and the speed for me. I usually go to push on my Pics and almost fall forward because I don't move as fast as I'm used to on the ice.

I do recommend Pic skates overall. They're the closest thing to the feeling of ice. Also, they don't have to be a substitute for the ice - some people will enjoy Pic skating itself and just be content to leave it at that. Buy a lot of extra toe picks ... yes, the wheels do wear down, but not as quickly as the toe stops.

As for standard inline skates, be sure to rocker the wheel base if you're going to use these to cross train. Most pairs allow you to do this by inverting a spacer in the 2nd and 3rd wheels. If not, then buy a new set of 4 wheels that are either 2mm smaller or larger, then put the larger 4 wheels in the middle on both skates, and the smaller ones on the fronts and backs. This will give you a rocker. I don't recommend trying to learn too many figure skating skills on standard inlines, but even for basic stroking and crossovers, you'll want the feel of the rocker. Before my pics I was doing waltz jumps, salchows and loops on my inlines, and pretty good 3s, too. But I don't recommend it - the ankle support isn't there to land, and the lack of a toe pick to control take off and landing is very dangerous. I could describe some nice falls that rival anything those crazy half-pipe kids have done.

Tim

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People dream of flying, birds dream of skating.

Thanks for the details about pics. (I've also seen some skaters recommending custom v1s -- do you have any experience with them?).

Suprising to hear you say that standard inlines don't have enough ankle support though. Those things feel like ski-boots to me, even the so-called "soft" skates that K1 makes. What *does* happen to me though, is that the wheels can't skid, so if you hit the pavement sideways with your wheels, there's *no* leeway, and something can get hurt (I'm usually more paranoid of twisting my knees). Ack!

Love the sig about birds dreaming of skating!

Yes, there are many different parameters to figure into a purchase of new wheels. There's wheel diameter, hardness of the rubber, bearing diameter, and profile.

My PIC skates came with PIC's Axel 6.0 wheels (70mm dia., and a fairly soft 80A hardness) that had an elliptical profile (fairly common for roller hockey and PIC-style skates).

I later replaced them with Labeda Gripper Lites in a softer compound for our rink's super-smooth floor. They were only sold in 72mm diameter size, but that fits the PIC frame nicely. When increasing wheel size, the most important thing is to make sure that they wheels don't touch each other when mounted.

Unfortunately my internet source for these wheels dried up, and I started buying Hyper brand wheels and bearings from my local roller rink. I now run Hyper Formula G (actually a step down in quality from the Labeda wheels) in 72mm diameter and 76A hardness (very soft).

Soft wheels like these would be worn down in a couple hours outdoors on rough pavement!

Indoors, they tend to last much longer, and finally fail by shedding chunks of rubber.

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Bill Schneider

If you are lucky you'll still be able to read the wheel size on your current wheels. It will likely be anywhere from 68mm to 80mm, although very new models of fitness skates have larger wheels. The width of all inline skate wheels are the same so that's not a problem, and the inside hole is also the same. So really there's only one size measurement to worry about.

Hardness varies from on the 'A' scale (or durometer) from 78A to 86A or so. 78A gives you a smooth, grippy ride outdoors. Harder wheels will last longer, but you'll feel the bumps more. Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about hardness for your first set of wheels, especially since you don't skate much. I use 78A on asphalt and I'm happy with them (I'm also light for a guy -- 145# so they don't wear out as much). I believe that hockey, slalom, and PIC skate people use harder wheels (higher 'A' rating).

As Bill said, Hyper is a good company for wheels. They also make several models, and you are probably fine with the cheapest ones they make in your size.

I have some used inlines I bought at a thrift store. They were absolutely the most awful thing I ever tried to skate on when I first took them out, but then a friend gave me some used ABEC5 bearings, and that made a huge difference as it no longer felt like I was swimming against the current. But, the wheels are too hard, so I slip constantly on them. The rentals work much better, which is kinda sad really. I thought maybe they'd work better outdoors on asphalt, but I tried that and they're so hard that it's very bumpy and difficult to skate at all on a rougher surface. I guess they last a long time, but I'd err on the side of too soft rather than too hard. I don't know anything about the measurements though...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I don't think that inline skating improves your figure skating skills.
We had inline skating on the training schedual last summer.
But the only thing that might help you by inline is that your legs get stronger.
It's much more strenuous to go upphills or downhills than just skate on the flat ice.

And you should not be afraid of trying to skate backwards on the inlines.
Just take one step at the time and you'll learn it rather fast.