Can anyone report on what was discussed at the AN Adult Skating Committee general meeting that was supposed to happen Thurs eve??

Just bumping this up. I was wondering too.

Hi,
I do have an agenda...somewhere, and will try to find it.
Highlights I remember:

There is a great deal of work being done to bring adult skating to the international scene. Rhea Schwartz (first adult chair) and Phyllis Howard (and others) are working on an ISU adult competition. The first event will be rough - a stepping stone and point of growth, just as the first AN was, but it is in the works!

18-25 year old participation. The committee wantes to know what level of interest there is in the 18-25 year old age group, and the possibility of adding this to AN. However, if this is added, something must go, as the event is continually growing. One suggestion was that all events would qualify through sectionals, thus reducing the number at AN.

Moves - much discussion. It's obvious that there needs to be a revision of the current moves structure. There was talk of a revision of the moves elements within the levels.

Survey - Please fill it out and send in your comments!

Then I had to leave to go to an event!

Will the survey be made available to us adult skaters that didn't attend AN who might want to contribute our thoughts and opinions?

Hi,
They are working on making it available on-line so more skaters have the opportunity to comment.

I sure hope they don't make all events qualifying. AN is also a great social event for adults............and a way that we can meet each other. 100% qualifying would be taking something away that makes AN unique to us. I'm not sure what the answer is for the 18-24 year olds, but they do have the collegiate option right now. I can see possibly restructuring the age groups, and adding 21 years old and up, but I really think 18-20 is too young. Perhaps they could limit starts if it is growing too big? Such as only one individual event per skater (so you would have to chose between interp or singles........and not allow those in qualifying to enter open events?). Just some ideas. What are others thinking? First mandatory moves, and now these plans to promote adult skating..........but does it really? Something to think about, I guess.

My coach and I were talking tonight about AN and the 18-24 issue. If they can have Young Adult categories, then open the event up to the Pre Bronze freeskaters as well as everyone else!! It would only require one additional day of competition and most competitors are showing up on Monday of AN week anyway, so what's the difference?
Flo, BTW, can coaches take the survey too? If so, please let me know and I'll have my coach fill one out when they get online!

Hi,
Coaches can take the survey as long as they are a USFSA member. Although it may be "just one more day" it's also one more day of judges, 70+ people who will need practice ice.....

"One more day" is worth it for the young adult skaters but not for the pre-bronze skaters? Is that one more indication of a move towards including adults who skated as kids but excluding adults who started as adults? I hope not.

I think it's more of an indication of how USFSA does national events. They don't offer beginner levels at any nationals. For standard track skating, at Junior nationals juvenile is the lowest level offered, no pre-pre, pre or pre-juv. At synchro nationals, it's also juvenile--no preliminary or intro teams compete at nationals. I think this is fair. Competing at the national level should be an honor and something to strive for.

It is not an indication of exclusion. Lowering the age to 21 would not require an extra day of competition. However, adding pre-bronze would. There is always more than meets the eye. This is no exception. Adding a whole new category plus age classes is more complicated than one might think.

w.w. west -- I didn't say it wasn't complicated, I'm sure it is. And if lowering the age results in more categories, then it would seem like additional events would be held, and therefore more time would be required. Adding pre-bronze would add 4 more events (Class I, II, etc.), right? How many more events would be added with a lower age limit? Wouldn't it be at least one for each level of competition? I suppose the interpretive events are already crowded, but I'd at least like to see pre-bronze skaters able to skate interpretive if they wanted to. Sure, they might not be competitive, but it would allow them to get their feet wet at national competition.

I understand perfectly well that these things are complicated. But I do see, from personal observation as well as comments from others on line, an increasing emphasis on adults who skated, sometimes at a high level, as a child. There was quite a discussion recently on this board about the difference between someone who skated as a child and someone who did not. I would hate to see adults who started skating as an adult have fewer opportunities.

Spreadeagle -- I understand, and maybe agree with, the idea that nationals should be for skaters at a higher level of achievement, but according to the logic of no pre-pre, no pre, and no pre-juv, does that mean only gold skaters should be at nationals? And what about people having passed their pre-bronze dance tests being allowed to compete in interpretive? I think that's a great idea, but they would be left out according to this logic as well.

I know that none of this is simple. But as many people have commented on many different threads and boards, adult skating is not standard track skating, and perhaps the rules should reflect that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Hi,
I believe the Adult Nationals event does reflect the adult program. There is just a limit to what the events can include and still offer a quality competition. If events are added, then something has to go. As it is the interpretive event no longer has final rounds. I'm not in favor of adding anything that could not be well supported.

The way I understood it, they aren't talking about restructuring all the age groups. The idea I heard was to expand Age Group 1 to include skaters aged 21 to 35 for competitions, and to allow skaters aged 18 and up to take Adult Tests.

Oh, thanks blue111moon. But yikes, I would hate to be a 30 or 35 year old skater competing against a 21 year old in a free skating event! That doesn't sound like a very fair age grouping to me. Fortunately I won't have to worry about being in that group. Except of course in smaller competitions where there are no age groups, and then I'd be a (soon to be) class III skater skating against a 21 year old. I don't think I'd like that too much, either! I don't worry about medals (good thing, too) but I would hate it to look like there is such a huge gap between my own skating and the other competitors, that I didn't even belong there.

Flo- I agree with you about needing to be able to manage the size, but I'm confused by people writing about declining numbers of starts, in contrast to what you are saying. And didn't someone say that there were fewer groups this year in bronze? So are some areas declining and others growing?

Pat

I thought the proposal was to make the YA category be ages 21-26, with Class I becoming 27-35. Or was it 21-25 & 26-35 respectively? I don't remember exactly, but I don't think the proposal was going to combine YA and Class I into one category. Fifteen years would be a pretty large age class, especially in the lower age ranges.

One of the Pro-Am Dance competitions does that...

Class I is 17 and under
Class II is 18-35
Class III is 36-49
Class IV is 50 and over

Which makes it difficult for several folks... the pre-growth spurt pre-teens who have to compete against 17 year olds, the 35 year olds competing against 18 year olds, and the upper 40s competing against the mid 30somethings.

The problem with deciding cut-offs age groupings is that very thing. Someone (several someones) will always feel that they got the short end of the stick.

Re changing the "when can one take Adult tests", I am strongly against lowering the age barrier any further. The problem is that the upper teens have no sensible competition track on the "standard track" side, and in fact, lower level upper teens often face worse situations at events than adult-onset skaters competing against "skated as a kid" skaters. Imagine being an 18 or 19 year old PreJuv skater at a non-qualifying competition, skating against a 7 or 8 year old kid half your height.

The printed handout that was given to attendees at the Adult Skating committee meeting had the following as suggested age classes for competition:

Class I = 21-26
Class II = 27-35
Class III = 36-45
Class IV = 46-55
Class V = 55 and over

Since we're giving opinions, I'll throw mine out. I don't think the competition age should be lowered to 21. And I really don't think we should have a totally different age for testing. (Too confusing -- pick 1 age and stick with it.)

[edited to correct a typo]

I wonder how many 21-24 year olds would even be interested. If they were grandfathered into an adult level, I can see it..............but to have to retest up to their competition level? I understand wanting to keep skaters on the ice (and isn't this what this is really about?), and filling that gap between collegiate and adult, but I don't even think the numbers are there initially. It's not like the skaters in this age group are flocking to compete in the young adult category that we are currently seeing at some competitions. I would think that most 21-24 year olds are starting careers, marriages, etc, and therefore don't have the extra money for skating anyway. I'd hate to take away what we currently have (which is GREAT). My vote will probably be to leave things alone. I've definitely got to give this survey some thought.........some quick thought.

Reading between the lines, it sounded like the idea is to combine the collegiate and adult skating camps. They specifically mentioned combining the nationals due to the new budget constraints they are expecting.

Ugh! I'm sure the collegiate clubs want to do their thing too. I wonder if they know what's going on?

There are several reasons there would be a lower age for testing. First, it allows skaters time to test before they start competing. If the age is the same to test and compete, most skaters wouldn't be able to just turn 25 and start competing. Most would have to take tests, some might perhaps have to take all the way up to their Gold, and so we're talking 8 tests: pre-Bronze MIF and FS, Bronze MIF and FS, Silver MIF and FS and Gold MIF and FS. If they were allowed to at least start testing at a younger age, they'd have time to get all those tests in before starting to compete. Some people complain about sandbaggers; well, by keeping the age for testing and competing the same, we're basically inviting sandbagging, with skaters being able to say, "Yeah, I know I should be in gold, but I only had time to test through Bronze, so here I am!"

Another reason to lower the age overall and even more for testing is so that we can retain a lot of skaters who are not competitive in the standard track. You'll see a lot of skaters in their late-teens in standard track competitions who do not fare very well in the placements; it's hard for them to compete with the "little ones." By allowing them to start testing adult at 18, and compete at 21, we can keep these skaters from quitting the sport altogether -- which is something a lot of them do. Right now there is really no place for the skater who is 18-25 years old, unless he or she is at a high or elite level. This would give them a place they can "belong."

Adult skating is all about including people, and I think this goes a long way in doing that. I am all for passing this proposal.

If the adult moves were closely aligned to the adult freeskating tests it would be a lot easier to make a case for grandfathering standard track skaters into their appropriate adult level...............and then testing adult track wouldn't be an issue. I think it's ridiculous to have to repeat tests. Obviously USFS isn't concerned about keeping costs down for skaters. What a waste of time and money.

As for "Yeah, I know I should be in gold, but I only had time to test through Bronze, so here I am!".........it's not that easy. You must compete at the level dictated by your regular track test history.

And speaking of regular track testing............Adult Silver criteria needs to be changed to no "higher than pre-juv fs" (rather than juv fs), since Adult Gold also reads "no higher than juv fs". What the heck is with that? I've heard the logic about there not being a pre-juv category years ago, but that no longer flies. And funny that logic didn't apply to the lower levels since Pre-Bronze is "no higher than Pre-Pre" (which didn't exist years ago either). The reason I know this is because I took the preliminary fs test when I was 25. The test I took back then is now the Pre-pre test (basically pre-bronze too). Even though my test elements were Pre-Pre I was not allowed to compete Pre-Bronze because the test was called Preliminary in 1979. I ended up stuck until I could test bronze. (I was an adult skater at the time I took this test in 1979 too). Sorry to get off the subject, but I really think this needs to be changed as younger skaters move into the adult ranks. If Silver and Gold criteria are both Juv FS, this certainly leaves a skater with the opportunity to chose where to start out.

I'm all for lowering the test age. There are a lot of skaters who start skating in college, and that would provide them with the ability to test Adult right off the bat so they wouldn't have to test, then re-test when they hit 25. Also, it would allow a skater who started at 21 (or so) to enter AN's where they belong, rather than a few levels below where they should be because they couldn't get a bunch of tests passed between their 25th birthday and Jan 15.

However, I am a bit concerned about the restructuring of the age groups. This year is the first year I could afford the trip to LP, and I'm 29. I really couldn't afford to compete when I was 26 (I was living with my parents at the time), but I did anyway. Many skaters will not have the time to prepare if in college, and others many not have the financial resources to compete. There are Young Adult events at Wyandotte and Mids, and they are usually sparsely attended, with only a couple at each level, and no Bronzes or pre-Bronzes. Let's see how many young adults we have before we split up the age groups.

My other concern is a maturity level issue. Many of the younger adult skaters bring their parents to the comps with them, and behave accordingly. (There is one such adult skater who is a completely different person away from her parents than with them--and she's in her late 20's.) I am not saying that every 21-24 y.o. is an immature brat, but adult skating is very different than kid skating, and I would worry about the attitudes of younger skaters who don't have kids, jobs, houses, etc.--the things that make us realize that we do this for fun, not national titles. I know I wasn't mature enough to attend Adult Nationals at 26! It's a very different vibe, where first and last place are celebrated equally (who got the largest ovations in Champ Men last week....first and last place, of course!) I worry that if we allow younger skaters, that we will have an age group amok with overcompetitive, bratty "children" who have no idea what "adult" means in the skating community.

BTW, the top skaters in my group were 30 and 35, and they both ended up on the podium in Bronze. They are fantastic skaters (who probably could have medalled in the Silver I event), and I don't see age being a factor in that decision. Hey, I was one of the youngest skaters in my group, and I was at the bottom of the barrel.

Erin
who really, really doesn't want the pressure of having only two years to go from Bronze I to Gold I, just so I can reach that goal! But if I must, I must!

Yes, you are correct. But that's assuming these skaters even tested up through regular track. Remember, a skater can't compete in Juvenile if he or she is 13. That skater is relegated to the Open Juvenile category, and that category isn't offered all that often, at least in my region. And they can't compete in Intermediate if they're over, I think, 15 or 16. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.) So a lot of these skaters stay in Preliminary, or the like, because there's no age limit. It doesn't mean that can't do axels and doubles; they might very well be able to pass the Juvenile and Intermediate tests but don't want to take them since they can't compete due to age. And further, they perhaps don't have the skill to get as high as Novice or Junior, where their ages might not be prohibitory. When I said these hypothetical "sandbaggers" should be in gold and not bronze, I meant due to their skill level, not their test level. I should have been more clear on that, so I apologize.

I asked about this once and for the life of me can't remember what the response was. But it made sense at the time. Does anyone know?