In another thread "skating video", Sessy posted about how to grab the blade for the bielmann spiral.

I just have a different way of doing it, and wonder if there are other opinions out there...

I have always grabbed the blade near the heel, and I remember observing skaters who do bielmann spins grab near the heel... And, as Sessy said, grab from the outside, rather then inside of the blade.

However, a few years ago, one coach told me, it'd be easier to grab around the heel, as it would bring the free leg higher. I do find it easier... maybe it is a flexibility thing?

Photos or videos?
This photo) shows very clearly how I grab around the heel

I don't have a video of just the spiral alone, but I do it in my programs - the shortest one would be the exhibition skate I did after the Singapore Nationals last month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUpEd2lkkWw

Cheers,
Chow

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My coach says, whatever works for you is the right way to grab your skate. When I had my session on these, she had me try many different ways up against the barrier....but she did say when you put your hand down to grab it, make sure your thumb is is toward the back of you.

And technically, it's only a Bielman if you bring it up over your head with both hands...and really that only applies to the spin, everything else is called a catchfoot spiral.

j

Yeah I know our ballet teacher teaches it differently too but his way only works if you're already very flexible, if you're not, "my" (actually, a figure skating coach's at an other club on our rink) works better for slowly stretching it up...

But what I really meant was like... A lot of people simply put their arm back, thumb pointing down. This blocks the shoulder and you can't lift the leg at all.

Well I don't know I'm probably one of the heel grabbers chow sees hehe
heres a pic...
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8696/skating6wd7.jpg

Jskater: Do you have any idea if all catch foots count for a difficult variation in spirals?

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Tidesong

I'm thinking any time you grab your skate, you get some extra points, which is why we see so many crappy ones nowadays. I would include mine in the crappy category. I can't reach with my opposite arm so I use same arm same leg but it throws off my balance and doesn't look nice at all. My coach told me I have more potential to have a nice looking one by grabbing my knee - apparantly that counts as a variation as well.

j

IJS rules allow either a 2-hand or 1-hand hold on a Biellmann position (Mao Asada does a 1-arm Biellmann and manages to get her free foot high and directly above the head). But I do agree that they should define the free leg/foot position requirement more clearly for the level-raising variation of position, since Kimmie Meissner has been getting credit for a "Biellmann" spiral when it's just a catch foot with the free foot barely higher than head level (while she bows her head, no less) and held very far away from the head. Meanwhile, a more extended version of that position (but still not a "true" Biellmann) was not given credit for the Biellmann position at U.S. Adult Nationals last month. On spins, you get credit for a difficult variation of position by bringing the foot to the head ("haircutter" spin), even if it's lower than the head. But I don't think you get credit for that position on a spiral; only the Biellmann position and full split are considered difficult variations that raise the level of the spiral.

I can't do a Biellmann, only a catch foot spiral like Kimmie's (foot barely higher than head level, and very far away from the head), but I grab my right blade at the heel, with my right hand. My hand is turned out so that my palm is turned up and I grab the blade from underneath. I agree that--in theory at least-- you should end up with your free foot higher if you grab at the heel. That's because even though your arm is extended to the same degree, the entire foot will be higher than the hand if you're holding it at the heel (the foot will be level with or below the hand if you hold it at the toe).

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

When I do the Biellmann spiral using two hands to grab my skate, I usually grab the bottom of my blade. However, I also find it comfortable holding my ankle/leg, sort of, though my free foot won't go as high as with my hand on the blade. I dunno, I guess it really depends on what works for everyone else. When I do it, my skate is way above the head level, even though I usually use one hand to grab the blade (like Mao Asada does it). I think it's harder grabbing with both hands because you obviously can't stay as balanced.

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Just my thing, but I'm afraid to grab it from the heel b/c I'm afraid the heel is gonna come off for some reason! But I do grab it from the blade area attached to the heel though, which would more likely pull the heel off the boot. (I think I'll try grabbing the back of the boot like that other picture have. Less scary to me. )

I barely a catch foot and trying to come up towards the head but it's not happening!!! (Bielmann? LMAO!!!! )

Here's my photo! (I'm the teeny tiny person to the left of the BIG tall guy going into a spin.)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Sorry, I think that's what we all meant to say when we talked about grabbing the heel instead of the toe. You always have to grab the blade, since the boot (either heel or toe) would slip out of your hand too easily. But don't worry about pulling the heel off of the boot or pulling the blade off the boot. Look at the ice dancing spins and lifts they do where the man swings the lady around and she's only held together by grabbing the blade of one boot! That exerts lots of pull on that blade but it doesn't come off.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Inspired by Jazzpants' photo (which looks pretty nice, btw ), I've decided to post a picture of my "Biellmann" ... or how it looked like 4 months ago. I don't bend my knee anymore and my leg is a lot higher. Maybe I can get a picture/video of it this weekend.


Picture of my Biellmann Off ice (Right now on ice it's pretty similar, except my head is not leaning backwards.)

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I recall reading somewhere that in spirals, it is considered a difficult variation if the free foot is higher than the head - doesn't matter whether it is one- or two- han hold, or in 'biellmann position or not.

Cheers,
Chow

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NICE!! I wish I had such flexibility...

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Hey Wannabesk8r....
Have you tried putting just your right skate on (on the floor) and practising the hand-hold on the blade..... You could definitely do a two handed Biellman (on ice) with your flexibility if you got the grasp right (from the outside of your skate, palm facing up-- pretty much what every one else said..lol) You have great flexibility!

BTW, anybody looking to increase their back flexibility for the bielman:

So, try this position on the floor


You lay down, you put your feet together, wiggle with your pelvis so it's pressed down to the ground thoroughly, your hands you put down at shoulder level, then you push yourself up keeping the pelvis and hipbones pressed down (yeah I know the guy in the photo isn't entirely doing that). Keep for like 30 seconds, then release, then repeat.

Gradually. Else you end up with a back ache the day after.

Anyway so this makes your back more flexible and you can then bend backwards in the bielman so you can grab it with both hands.

Hi, Chow! Wow, I sure would like for that to be true! Do you remember where you might have seen it?

According to the most recent ISU levels document posted on USFSA.org, there are 6 features that can raise the level of a spiral sequence, of which only the following two are based on flexibility:
(1) "Free leg in a total split position sideways or forward, one or both arms hold possible." (this is feature #6 on the list)
(2) "1 difficult variation of position" (feature #2 on the list)

Below the list of features, the document defines "difficult variation of position" with the following wording (which several technical specialists have told me basically means doing a Biellmann position):

Difficult Variation (of position):
"These are variations that affect the main body core position and balance, e.g. twisting the upper body, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, obtaining the Biellmann position. Only these variations can increase the Level."

In the ISU clarification document for technical specialists, a Biellmann position is defined as, "pulling the leg above and behind head level with either one or both hands."

This is all I have managed to find on the subject.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Yep, that's what I have found. Does that not mean the leg just has to be above the head and behind (as opposed to in front)? It doesn't specify that the leg has to be directly above the head...

Or have I mis-interpreted it?

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You hit it right on the nose! Due to the vagueness of the wording (which is common in these ISU documents, unfortunately), there is quite a variation in what technical controllers consider a "Biellmann" position. At Worlds, any catch-foot spiral seems to be getting credit as a Biellmann, but it varies quite a bit at the lower level competitions. I think the wording really needs to be more specific, just for the sake of fairness and consistency.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Well, I thought they were getting credit as being "a difficult feature", of which Bielmann is one. I'm not so sure about the lower level comps, but the main problem I've heard is failure to hold for 3 seconds, not that it doesn't count.

Anyway, I will see what happens at O'dorf!

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BTW, I found this linked from the ISU website:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

In the "Free Program" section under "spins" , it says, simply:
"The Biellmann position is considered when the boot of the leg is above head-level".

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ooh thankyou for the pic of the yoga man. I tried that (just once, to pace myself as I have overdone back stretches before) and now my back feels really flexible and nice...

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Oh you can do several in a row, just don't like, push to the point of painful discomfort. Anyway so far I've found it's really hard to do serious damage with this backstretch, as it's all passive.
I hope it works for you

Ah, got it. But I'm assuming that since the Biellmann position is defined in the spiral levels section as involving one or both hands holding the free foot/leg, this boot above head level thing must just be a clarification for when the skater is doing a catch foot position. Otherwise, I would think it would say, "A difficult variation of position" rather than specifying "The Biellmann position". What's your take on it?

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Thanks for the suggestion, doofsy. In the on ice picture I posted, I was aiming for this position. http://www.maomaiasada.com/photos/im...6/JC1E4663.jpg HAHA, not very close.

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Yes, I learned that one in a yoga class! To get the pelvis pressed flat to the ground, the instructor had us raise the right arm and left leg together, then left arm and right leg together 4-6 times before pushing up off the floor. It really helped!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I've done that pose before too and it's a very good back stretch! Haven't done them in a while. Maybe I should start up on it again.

(BTW: regarding the guy in the photo... HUBBA HUBBA HUBBA!!! Yeah, I know! I'm a sorry case!!! )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!