Why not replace the first loop in the combination with a flip and have:
Lutz
Lutz-loop-toe loop
Flip
Flip-loop
Salchow-toe loop

Thanks, Daisies. Are you on the Adult Committee? Is this why you know this? If, yes, then when are they going to post who is serving on the Adult Committee? They seem to have taken that list down from the USFSA website.

Actually the WBP for the Pairs really doesn't matter, because the IJS doesn't adhere to it anyway. But thanks, anyways...

Yes, I am on the committee. I would assume the reason the list was taken down is that the committee is in the middle of transitioning. Each year some members go off of the committee and new ones come on, and the new ones who are asked to join have a certain amount of time to accept. So USFS is probably getting together the "new" list and will post it when it's complete.

Okay, I have a question. For Adult Bronze it says no axel-type jumps. Does that mean a waltz jump would be a deduction? (ie axel type "takeoff"), or do waltz jumps just count as connecting moves etc?

Because at Silver, it says it may include an axel-type jump, so if I'm at Silver, could I do a waltz jump and have it count as a jump element?

I've got a possibility of doing a US competition this season (sssh, it's a "business trip") and don't know quite where I slot in and there's differences between WBP and our IJS so I was trying to go by the required elements. I've never done an axel but have the test that says I have

If waltz jumps have been discussed before, just point me to the thread, okey-dokey.

Thanks, Daises!

By the way, could you please tell me what the term rotation is for the people who are already serving on the Adult Committee?

Waltz jumps in Bronze are OK; you just don't see a lot of people doing them, esp with the new rules that limit one to 4 jump elements, b/c waltz jumps obviously don't get as much credit as the full rev jumps and everyone wants to maximize their tech difficulty.

Under IJS, waltz jumps receive 0 credit, but I believe they do count as a jump element (for ex, a popped axel). Under 6.0, which Bronze and Silver are judged by (even at AN), waltz jumps do count as a jump element and do get some sort of credit.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I believe each term for members is one year, but each member can be invited back to continue. So sometimes people serve one year, and sometimes people serve more.

The terms for the Chair and Vice Chairs may be longer -- I am not sure what they are, though.

I didn't even notice that it said "no axel type jump" at bronze. I would certainly hope this doesn't mean waltz jumps are illegal, since it's my best jump (and because I think that would be an incredibly stupid rule-- in fact, my personal opinion is that a waltz jump should be required at bronze, and should have a point value). Yet I have always heard a waltz jump counted as an "axel-type jump." My understanding is the same as Debbie's-- that it would count as jump element and receive a call of "A" or "axel, no value," which is also what I was told by technical specialists when I asked the question. Is a waltz jump now illegal at bronze, daisies?

I suspect that whoever decided to phrase it that way in the rulebook didn't think too hard about the wording - I assume what they meant was that axels (and double axels, triple axels, etc) are not allowed in Bronze, and just didn't think about waltz jumps. Maybe they didn't think anyone in Bronze would do a waltz jump, or maybe they were thinking in IJS terms where a waltz jump doesn't count, but I suspect "axel-type" just refers to axels. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time a rule was worded confusingly, or incorrectly.

Daisies, any insight on the axel/waltz issue in Bronze?

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Right. But I also realized that my old spin layout is exactly what is on the adult bronze free skating test (one foot upright spin, backspin [as it is called on the test form], and sit spin), and that the rationale for adding the third spin to the well-balanced program requirements was to create "equivalency" between the test and competition requirements. I guess that doesn't automatically imply that the test requirements would suffice in competition, and there are other examples where the test requirements still don't match the competition requirements (i.e., a flying spin isn't required until the intermediate FS test but is required in [non-restricted] juvenile free skate competition). But if bronze skaters aren't "expected" to be able to do enough spins to fill up the 3 boxes without repeating codes to get to that level, that at least might be one possible rationale for not taking the clarification for juvenile through novice to apply to, say, adult bronze. Have you talked to others on the adult committee about this? I know you really know your stuff but I'm curious if your interpretation is universally shared, since the clarification I linked earlier as worded only applies to juvenile through novice. And because my change foot spin isn't very good yet.

The other thing I was thinking of is this: how would judges know what levels the spins were if a competition was judged under 6.0 (to know, for example, if the skater did two CCoSp3s or one was only level 2?). Even those judges who happen to be technical specialists might not realize it because judges are instructed to look at quality and not the difficulty. I know my friend has trouble staying on an outside edge on her backspin, so maybe she can teach me how to change edges and make my backspin a "USp2" so they wouldn't have the same code.

The judges with competition appointments certainly know and have been using IJS a lot, but not all judges who only have test appointments know a lot about it. And I do have quite a lot of experience practice judging with IJS (and have enough 'points" to judge with it for non-quals, though I haven't had a chance yet) and try to read up on all the rules and I have been confused about several issues that I haven't seen definitively and officially addressed (as you can tell from this topic), so it's certainly possible other judges, even those who know IJS pretty well, might have similar questions. I appreciate your taking the time to answer them.

My suspicion is that the intent wasn't to ban waltz jumps either, because I just can't fathom why anyone would intend to do that, but generally the requirements have said "no axels or higher jumps" when axels or higher jumps weren't allowed, and not "no axel-type jumps," period. As worded, I think it would exclude waltz jumps so hopefully daisies can clarify, or an official clarification can be issued.

It might not come as a surprise to anyone here that my 4th-grade teacher once wrote on my report card that I often took things too literally.

Spins of a different nature mean that you cannot do 2 CCoSp or 2 FCSp in a program whether they are different levels or not. So, for a program to have three spins that count, they have to be of a different nature - so these are the codes that count as a different nature:
USp
SSp
CSp
LSp
CoSp (change position, no change of foot)
CUSp (change foot, no change of position)
CSSp (change foot, no change of position)
CCSp (change foot, no change of position)
FCSp (flying camel)
FSSp (flying sit)
FCoSp (flying combination spin such as flying camel-back sit)
FCCoSp (flying change combination spin such as flying camel-forward sit)
CCoSp (change foot combination spin)

Of course, flying spins are not allowed in Bronze.

That makes more intuitive sense, techskater. I was considering "USp1" to be the "abbreviation," so that a USp1 and a USp2 would have different abbreviations and could both get points. Assuming you're right, I guess they're considering just the "USp" part to be the "abbreviation," so both a USp1 and a USp2 have the same abbreviation and therefore only one could get credit in the program. For competitions judged under 6.0, it wouldn't make sense to expect judges to know when to deduct if the former interpretation were correct, but under IJS the computer would know, so it makes a big difference whether the rule just means that you can't do 2 CCoSp3s or that you can't do a CCoSp1 and a CCoSp3. There's no clarification of this in ISU 1445 (though it's possible there's another document where they more precisely define "abbreviation").

The fact that they had parentheticals in the spin box as to what "different nature" meant ("e.g. spin combinations with/without change of foot and/or change of position, spins with only one position, flying entry, etc.") might lend support toward your interpretation since it doesn't mention anything about levels but I wasn't taking that as gospel because it sort of makes it sound like "spin with only one position" and "flying entry" are in themselves "natures" but that's obviously not the intent since a sit spin and an upright are both spins in one position but clearly have different natures based on the clarification. Are you on the adult and/or another committee, techskater? Thanks for your input.

Thanks, again, Daisies.

Is there a document, or a set of bylaws where I can read what the actually term limits are for skaters serving on the Adult Committee? Actually, I'd be interested in reading all of the rules and regulations that apply to Adult Committe and Adult Sub-Committee members.

If you can post the link to the Bylaws that govern the members of the Adult Committee, I'd greatly appreciate it. Many thanks!

In Canada, the waltz jump does have a value - 0.3 - that is used when our Code of Points system is used. Obviously the ISU system doesn't apply to events lower than Junior, so each country has adapted a value system for its use. Canada - CoP, USA - IJS.

In adult competitions, the waltz jump is used as an axel-type jump when required. The Cdn silver adult level requires an axel-type jump - so most adults do a waltz jump., worth 0.3 points.

The axel-type jump requirement also exists in the Canadian starskate system for competitions and in the well-balanced program outlines for most competitions whether 6.0 or CoP. So the waltz jump fufils that checkmark for most beginners.

The new ISU rulings regarding spin positions are being adapted to events other than Senior and Junior level..........specifically the rule that a camel spin must have the freeleg higher than the hip, and a sit position whereby the hip has to be parallel to the skating knee (ie no butts in the air anymore!)

Under the new points system, a squat sit spin receives no value nor does a camel spin that fails to achieve the camel position -- not to mention you have to maintain a minimum number of rotations (2 in each position and total of 3 in a single position spin). I had an adult lose both the sit spin and the combination spin boxes - which had previously been counted under a 6.0 system.

The rationale was simply to have the same number of spins in the test and competition programs, not necessarily to make them equivalent in terms of difficulty. It's easier to change a spin in a program than have to rechoreograph an entire section to accommodate or remove a spin.

I'm giving you my opinion as a judge and not as a member of the adult committee.

They wouldn't necessarily know what level a spin is -- levels don't apply to 6.0. The level has nothing to do with the abbrevation. If you do a USp1 and a USp2, it's the same nature.

No problem. Everyone has questions about 1445! It's all very unclear. It's going to take a couple of competitions (internationals) to sort things out, I'm sure.

Again, the level doesn't count in the abbreviation.

Huh? Why would I have bylaws? (Random!) I've never even seen any.

Anyhoo ... I'm sorry but I don't have an answer to the Bronze predicament. AFAIK, a waltz jump is a transitional element. But you'd need to get clarification from a technical panelist, of which I am not. I will ask around.

I didn't think the levels counted toward the "different nature" of a spin. Here's my beef (warning - rant coming): Bronze and Silver are both being judged using the 6.0 system, not IJS. Why, then, are IJS terms referenced in the WBP? OK, I realize that judges and skating committee members, etc, all have IJS on their minds. But if a comp level is not judged under a particular system, those at that level shouldn't have to use standards (spin abbreviations, axel-type vs. waltz) from another judging system. It just doesn't make sense. Define "different nature" as it was defined under 6.0 for those levels. And under 6.0, forward upright and back upright were considered to be of a different nature.

And another rant about IJS: unless I'm misreading things, the number of positions (I mean positions, not variations of position) doesn't affect the point values received for most combo spins. For example, a camel-sit-back sit-back scratch is coded CCoSP, but so is a sit-back sit-back scratch. Yes, I saw that for some combo spins, doing all 3 positions on each foot, or something like that, does get counted as a feature that increases the level, but the 2 spins I just referred to would be counted the same (obviously, variations that a skater chose to do within those positions would affect the total number of points received). My point is that it is harder to start in the camel position (assuming the camel position is held for at least 2 revs) than it is to start with the sit position, since the camel is a harder spin, but there is no recognition of that in the scale of values when you are just talking about the basic spin.

OK, rant over.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Thanks for your responses. OK, I wasn't sure if what you were saying about the upright and backspin was something that had been officially agreed upon by the adult committee or your own opinion. I suspect you're probably "right" about it but since the clarification only mentioned juvenile through novice the "official" word is ambiguous, so I will try to get an official clarification from someone on the judges committee. As well as a clarification on the "no axel-type jump" at bronze and whether an intended waltz jump counts as a jump element and at what levels. I know that the ISU rules say that skaters may do small jumps as "decorations" (their term) that are counted simply as transitions, and I believe the wording was such that a waltz jump could fall under that heading. I also think I remember some international skaters doing waltz jumps as part of footwork that were clearly "decorations." However, I also know that waltz jumps that are clearly popped jump attempts do count as an "axel, no value." The ambiguity comes in when you get to levels low enough where waltz jumps are actually intended as jump elements and are neither pops nor (intended to be) "decorations."

I totally hear you! I have a similar beef with jumps: A double lutz, for instance, gets a value, and a double toe loop gets a value, but then a two-jump combination of double lutz-double toe loop simply gets those two jumps' values added together. There is no recognition of the fact that a combination is harder than a solo jump.

That's actually usually a "benefit of the doubt" call. When an axel is required in a program, a popped one will get called as an attempt so that the skater doesn't get a deduction for not having one in the program. The skater will simply get no value, rather than no value plus a deduction for not following the rules.

Upon re-reading the clarification and seeing the wording at the bottom that says, "Therefore, a spin abbreviation may only be used once within a program for all levels from juvenile through senior," I now would interpret that as saying it would not apply for levels below juvenile (but that the spins still must be somehow different, because 2 basic scratch spins obviously wouldn't be of a different nature under any definition), but am in the process of asking for clarification.

Who knew planning a bronze program could be so confusing?

Daisies,

The reason why you would have "Bylaws" is, because whenever you are asked to serve on either the board, or committee of a non-profit organization, such as the USFSA, or even a for profit organization, such as corporations, before accepting the responsibility of serving or representing a constituency (or, a group of people) you are given a set of rules and regulations (bylaws) by which you are bound to represent, govern, and make decisions for the people/skaters whom you represent.

Bylaws can or cannot be an extensive document that covers such things as informing you about your term limits, about your election, or reelection process, about how many votes (qourums) are required to pass a decision or law into action, about what your responibilities are for either attending meetings or participating if your meetings are web-based, ect... it basically is a set of quidelines that give peramiters about representing us, so that it's not a total chaotic free for all and that decisions are not made by only a few people, because others are neglecting their responsibilities...that's all.

It's interesting that you are unaware that a document exists that would be able to tell me for a fact about term limits, rather than just speculating that it is one year and then you are invited back ad infinitum, which is a very strange system if this is true. Aren't you curious about how the Adult Committee operates, since you are serving upon it? It seems that for an institution that is nothing other then about Rules and Regulations, which is why we are talking about the details of a WBP, that a set of Bylaws that govern the committee who represents us doesn't exist.

Pages 12 -15 in the current rulebook is all about committees. Maybe this is what you are looking for?

Thanks, West.

I've read this section of the Rule Book that you mentioned above several times. The only thing that vaguely points to anything pertaining to the Adult Committee is section 5 on page 12 "Special and Ad Hoc Committees." However, this is a far cry from anything resembling "Bylaws," which every member who serves on the board and, or, committees of USFSA sanctioned skating clubs throughout the country receive. In fact, there is a template for "Bylaws" for skating clubs, which is under the "forms" section of the USFSA website...so, they do exit, but were never implemented for a governing body, such as the Adult Committee, which, again, is rather surprising, since the USFSA is about nothing other than rules and regulations as it pertains to skating.

The pages that you pointed out pertain for the most part to the Chair of the Adult Committee and everyone either horizontal or above that post. The Adult Committee who serves underneath and at the pleasure of the Adult Committee Chair is below (in terms of structure) this post, and the pages you pointed out do not apply to the Adult Committee members, or Adult Sub-Committee members.

But thanks for trying to find something for me to look at and read to answer my original question about "term rotation." Much appreciated!