The updated Well Balanced Program/IJS charts for Adult Singles and Dance have been posted at http://usfsa.org/New_Judging.asp?id=313.

The Pairs chart is TBA.

One thing to note is that the rule that a jump may be repeated only once (in other words, performed no more than twice) is in there. It was inadvertently left out of the chart last year, even though it was in the rulebook.

Unchanged is the rule that if a jump is repeated, it must be in combo or sequence.

daisies,

Do you by any chance know whether the definition of two spins being "of a different nature" for adults matches the one described in this clarification that is applicable for juvenile through novice (i.e., "different nature" = "different IJS code")? (ETA: http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...on5SINGLES.pdf ) Because I am planning to skate up to bronze next month and currently have both a one foot upright spin and a backspin in my program, both of which would get the code "USp1" but which clearly aren't the same spin. If they are considered to be of "the same nature" I suppose I could try to replace one of them with a change foot spin. In practice, my event won't actually be judged using IJS and unless they were specifically told that forward upright and back upright spins were considered to be of the same nature, I'm sure most judges would count them as being of a "different nature" (especially since some judges aren't experienced with IJS and wouldn't know or be thinking about what the codes would be). Still, I always like to know all the nuances of the rules as a judge and want to be sure not to violate any of them as a skater.

Thanks in advance.

Now I just have to find out if the competition is using the new rules or the old rules, to know if I can even do the 3 spins I have in my program...

Hi Nick. Yes, as far as I know, "spins of different nature" does mean different IJS codes. Therefore, even under 6.0, your 1-foot spin and backspin should receive a deduction.

Why do you think that "most judges would count them as being of 'a different nature'"? I'm a judge, and, to me, under the new rules, they are of the same nature. Thus, from me, you'd get a deduction. (Sorry!)

That's the key -- under the new rules. Whereas your spins might have been fine before, under the new rules they're not.

In my experience, judges have more of an IJS mindset now than they do a 6.0 mindset. IJS is being implemented more and more, and most judges -- especially the ones who will be at AN -- will be well-versed in it. So even if they're judging under 6.0, they still know the rules.

Good luck!

Oh, dear....

I guess that means this would be a violation of the rule too -- 1) sit spin, 2) backsit-forward attitude and 2) plain scratch spin. 1) and 2) would probably violate the new rule? I guess I better switch my sit spin (which is sadly currently my best spin...) for a camel, huh? (Which sadly in my case, is non-existent at all. )

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Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

The way I understand it, you should NOT have to change the program, because 1) would get the SSp (sitspin) code, 2) would be CCoSp (change of foot/combination spin) and 3) would be USp (upright spin). So those all receive different codes/are different natured spins. At least that's the way we were told to consider them at the seminar we had last weekend.

Yes, thin, you are correct

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't seen or heard anything official about what "different nature" meant until I specifically sought out a definition, and that clarification specifically noted that it applied to juvenile through novice. So if I hadn't found that and received your interpretation, then I would've given the skater the benefit of the doubt and would not have deducted if a skater did a level 1 one-foot upright or scratch spin and a backspin unless I had been specifically told to. I would've guessed before seeking out the clarification that "different nature" meant simply that you couldn't do the exact same spin twice (and while a backspin and one-foot upright/scratch have the same code, they're not the same spin), which is how I've always interpreted the rule up until now. I suspect many other judges would use the same interpretation, and while I'm sure all the judges at Adult Nationals are very well-versed in IJS, not all judges at non-qualifying competitions are.

Anyway, that does help. And knowing that there's at least one judge out there who would give me a deduction reinforces the desire I already had not to violate any rules whatsover.

For Silver...

are two flying spins allowed?

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You could do *3* flying spins if you wanted, as long as they have different call names.

So flying camel (FCSp), flying camel/back sit (FCoSp), flying camel/back sit/forward sit (FCCoSp), and flying camel/forward camel (FCCSp) are some examples

Death drop or flying sit (FSSp) or flying upright spin (FUSp) and then all the variations of the flying sit and upright that there are with the above-mentioned flying camel spins.

Knock yourself out.

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I'm sure I will splat on it if I ever try two flying spins - in one program, I was just curious

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I have an interesting observation about the non-repeating jumps. In Silver, there is a max of 5 jump elements, and a max 3 combinations/sequences. So, how would someone do the max with the limit on repeats.

With most of us able to really only do Loops or Toe-Loops as the second or third jump of a combo or sequence, that would rule out a Toe or a Loop as the first jump in a combo or sequence, or am I missing something?

I skated under IJS this year in Estonia and had a Salchow, Lutz-Loop, Flip-Loop, and Loop-Loop-Loop. And, they all counted. Should they not have? And, does that mean I have to change my program for this year? I do loops much better right now because of the problem with my left knee.

Rob

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I think you're right, basically the 3 combo rule, with one combo having three jumps, means that there is a max of four jumps that can be the non-first jump of a combo. Synthesizing this observation along with the repeat rule, that means these four jumps would have to be two toes and two loops, in some order.

The other five jumps would then have to be taken from Axel, Lutz, Salchow, and flip. Now I ask: is there another rule that limits how many different types of jumps you can apply the repeat rule toward? That is, if you've already repeated a loop and toe-loop, could you also repeat Axel and/or Lutz and/or Salchow etc.? I believe there is no such limit but I could be wrong.

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I don't know if you are specifically speaking about silver, but in gold you would. In fact, if you do not have a solid double (like me - mine was downgraded at AN and it was one of my better efforts), then the only way to maximize the jump points is to do two axels, one in combination, two lutzes, one in combination, and two flips, one in a three jump combination (not a sequence - you lose points on those - and of course, the three jump combo could be on the axel or lutz too - I'm just using my own example). The salchow disappears as an unnecessary jump, unfortunately - I don't think you'd get dinged for it under IJS, but you might under 6.0. Of course, when I skate under 6.0 my solo flip would be a double sal anyway.

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Hmmm.....so I can't do a back camel/back sit/forward sit combo spin and then later do a forward sit/back sit combo, can I? That's two change foot spins, but one without change of position.

Well the change foot from back to forward isn't there yet anyway, so I guess I can just see if it is by next winter.

Yes, you can both spins you listed. One is a CCoSp and the other a CSSp.

There is no limit as to how many different jumps you can repeat twice.

Also, if anyone is planning on doing a sequence under IJS, they need to review the new rules carefully.

Thanks. When I thought about it later, I realized that I might be ok.

In the jump sequence you can also add half jumps for interest, and can therefor use the salchow. The half jumps do not count as a full jump in the tally. Under the new rules, my program last year ended up with a Lutz, a Flip, a Lutz-toe, a Loop-loop, and a Flip-toe-half loop-salchow. Of course with a loop-loop, I had to sacrifice my Lutz-loop. I asked one judges about the new rules, and she said that the judges want to see a variety of jumps. So I guess we should try to become creative with the combos.

That's right, you can't do mohawks or 3-turns bet jumps in a sequence anymore - does anyone else agree with me that this makes no sense? So it's no longer possible to have a sequence with most of the "unlisted" jumps, such as falling leaf, split or stag jumps, b/c you would need a 3-turn to do another jump (ex: (any single)-falling leaf-toe loop).

Really, the only connecting element that's allowed under the new (IJS) rules is a half-loop. A toe tap/side toe hop is permissible too, I think - at the Chesapeake Open, I saw quite a few axel-toe tap-axel sequences in Intermed and Novice (I didn't see Juv, but I'm sure they were there, too).

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The rule used to be interpreted that way, but no more. Judges are changing their thinking, so skaters would be wise to do so too.

For example, the old way of thinking would be that you're doing an "upright spin" and a "backspin." But the new way would be that you are doing an "upright spin" and an "upright spin with reverse entry" -- a reverse entry simply being a "feature."

So, I have to ask ... are judges in your area not using IJS? I am honestly dumbfounded that you would suspect judges at nonquals wouldn't know IJS. It's all we use around these parts, from Juvenile up, but the same judges are used for the 6.0 events.

Regarding the sequence rule, I totally don't get it either. If you have to do a half-loop between jumps, that actually makes the sequence pretty difficult because half-loops can go awry pretty easily ... so it really isn't worth doing sequences under IJS, especially when you only get .8 of the value! (Under 6.0, though, they are still worth doing, IMO.)

I guess we will have to see how that rule is implemented!

I kind of understand why no three turns are allowed as the in between anymore in a very vague sense. They changed the combination rule to read that a double three done between jumps will still be called a combination but judges are required to give it a lower GOE. So, if you had someone that intentially did it as part of the unlisted elements between jumps in a sequence and they got a lower score with the combo and negative GOE they could complain about it. I guess it's to make the caller's job easier in terms of intention of the skater in that sense. The mohawk part of the rule I don't understand, though.

FWIW, no more jump sequences in my program because of it...

I am still confused about the non repeating jumps. I am at Silver level. I have a Lutz, Lutz-toe-Loop (3 jumps), Loop-Loop, Flip-toe, Sal. Does this mean I have too many loops? If so how could I maximize my difficulty in absence of the axel? Help!

Lara

Perhaps you could do:
-Lutz
-Lutz/toe/loop
-Loop
-Flip/toe
-Flip/half loop (or toe tap)/Sal

or
-Lutz
-Lutz/toe/toe
-Loop/loop
-Flip/half loop (or toe tap)/Sal
-Sal -or- Flip

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Does anyone know why the WBP hasn't come out for the Pairs, yet? Does anyone know when it might hit the stands? I can only imagine what they are fighting over at this point.

There is no fighting going on. It is being proofread and perhaps rewritten to better mirror how the standard-track charts are worded ... that is NOT to say the rules are the same, it simply means if the standard chart says something like "One axel-type jump" and the adult chart says something like "One axel is allowed," they want to make the wording similar so that there is more uniformity and it does not confuse the technical panel. Everyone working on it is volunteering their time, so please be patient.

(I proofed and reworded the singles one, which I why I know that! )

Yes, you do have too many loops - but you only have one salchow, so why not do salchow loop instead of loop loop?

Fiona