Good for you. BUT a friend of mine competed under it last summer, and was horrified to discover that, while she had entered in her PCP that she was going to do a loop jump, a flip and a lutz, the technical specialist had considered them three loop jumps! So you see, it can happen!

And, actually, while it's true that quite a lot of people do do flips when what they have written down is a lutz (and these days, increasingly, are marked accordingly), the opposite can also be true, and someone can do a lutz when what they were trying to do was a flip!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Well, that's just bizarre. How does a flip turn into a loop? Or a lutz into a loop? I don't even see how you could be doing a flip poorly and have it called a loop. I think the tech specialist made a mistake, which has certainly happened in the past.

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August 22, back on the ice!

Yeah, that does sound bizarre. In other toe loop news, my coach looked at my toe loop last night and informed me that I am no longer doing a toe waltz, and that my toe loop is now done correctly - woohoo! (hoping it stays that way.....)

I corrected your post because many people come to our board looking for information and your statement that a Loop jump is less than 3/4 of a revolution is false. The ISU, ISI, and USFSA all consider it to be a full-revolution jump. I wasn't contesting the physics, I was clarifying mis-information.

I clearly stated that I wasn't speaking as a Mod in my second post. I was speaking as an adult and a parent. Jokes about people being on drugs are not funny. I've taken issue with several of your postings because you made fun of someone by saying they were on drugs. I DO NOT "go" after every post you put up, although I will disagree with you from time to time as others do with me. The key is to disagree agreeably, without insulting or getting defensive.

I really think you should take a look at your posts. Most of them come across as mean-spirited. Speaking and posting should be different since you don't have non-verbal clues to soften your "jokes." On the same note, I've asked friends to not say things like "These parents must be smoking crack!" I find it very offensive having seen people lose their lives to drugs.

If you wish to have your ID banned, just send a PM to the moderators.

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OK, I was the person whose post drew the "crack" reference....

First, stardust skies, I hope you won't stop posting here, b/c your posts are very informative. It's good to have high-level skaters on the forum to share info.

That being said, I do see how some might be offended by the crack statement and figures of speech like that. I usually assume everyone means well with their comments (unless they're obvious trolls) but it's hard on a board like this where people often don't know each other personally to be able to come across exactly the way you want to. Like Isk8NYC said, when you post, it's different from speaking b/c you can't use voice inflections or non-verbal gestures to make your point come across the way you intended. And since those posting here come from a variety of age groups and countries, it's probably best to avoid comments that might be interpreted negatively, even if you didn't intend for them to be or you know none of your friends would react like that.

wow I cant believe how many posts came up from this thread. ok so heres the update. I spoke to coach A (you can look back at my original post ) who said the following that coach B's way is actually a bit more advanced but she likes to teach it in the beginning the way she taught me and then later picking it apart and correcting it. HOwever, she mentioned the toe loop is a very easy jump to cheat and people get away with a lot with it as you see at events many skaters will throw it a toe loop in a combination or as even 3rd in a combination even last minute to add to the points since its simple they just pick and jump.

so i plan to work equally on both set ups.
thanks for all the help and happy skating!!

My coach said, when I told him about this, that what probably happened was that the skater in question didn't actually pick in, but put too much of her blade down, and perhaps stayed on it slightly too long - he said he's seen too many people do that, especially under stress.

I know both the Husband and I have problems actually picking in - neither of us has either a flip or a lutz, but we both have a cherry-flip (toe loop), and both of us are inclined to put our skate down rather than pick in.....

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Actually I can see how a flip or lutz could be considered a loop. I have seen a skater who picks, pulls back to the pick, but then instead of of "pole-vaulting" off the pick, once her left foot is with her right, she hops off the picking toe. In the end it is really a loop.

It seems that is how her coach teaches the flip. If her lutzes are done the same way, they'll be more like loops too.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

If the take-off is only from the toe, it's not a loop. For it to be a loop, the take-off has to be from a back outside edge, before you push up and off the pick. I can see what Mrs. Redboots is saying, that if you miss the pick entirely, you could end up doing something that looks like a loop. But it would have to be pretty bad to have it called as such, because the set-up for a loop versus a flip or lutz is entirely different. The caller should be able to tell what the skater is intending to attempt from the set-up...thus, perhaps those jumps should have been called as what the skater was attempting, but the judges should have hammered them on the GOE.

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

The official definitions differ greatly from what I see other skaters do on the ice. For a long time I was so afraid of toe waltzing that I couldnt even toe loop properly. My double salchow was taken off too early, and had to be corrected to wait longer.

Different skaters tend towards doing things at different extremes and I think that sometimes the coaches try to adjust what they say to do to help the particular skater... for a skater that picks too far in, perhaps the coach says pick behind, for a skater that picks too far out the coach may say pick in.

I actually do wish the official definitions to be a bit more reflective of what is done by skaters.
I'm not sure that its possible to do a full rotation loop... I would love to see a video of one though if it were possible... (the sk8stuff example isnt a full rotation loop)

edit: However, I must say that I think theres a rule from ISU that the skaters do not get penalized for prerotating their jumps as long as they do not take off facing forwards (except for the axel jump) which means that the usual 1/4 prerotation is allowed even though jumps may be defined as full rotation jumps?
(somethings really get confusing trying to reconcile printed definition , what you see and what you attempt to do!)

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Tidesong

Debbie, that's awesome! One of my favorite sayings: "Simple awareness is often curative."

By the way, although this part of the topic may be dead by now, I think there was just a little miscommunication on the "full revolution jump" issue and, once again, nobody was wrong.

The official definition of a full revolution jump is given in the rulebook and in the list of "listed jumps." According to the USFS, all of the following jumps are considered full revolution jumps for judging purposes: toeloop (and toe walley), salchow, loop, flip, lutz, etc. Under the new judging system, the walley is also considered a full revolution jump but not a listed jump, meaning it will be considered a connecting move but will not be given value as a jump.

But I think Stardustskies was referring to the fact that, when you look jump takeoffs and landings in slow motion, you will see that until you get to the lutz and walley (or maybe the flip), there will always be a little pre-rotation on the toe. That's just because--unless you're on an edge that is rotating the opposite direction from your jump rotation--it's physically unavoidable. For example, when examined frame-by-frame, even the best skaters in the world had their picking foot facing forward by the time the toepick completely left the ice on a double or triple toeloop. Because the takeoff edge is continuous and in the same direction as the jump, and because the rotation starts at the toe, the skater's hips were still facing just a quarter turn to the left on takeoff, which is correct. On the lutz or walley, there really isn't any pre-rotation because the entrance edge is not giving you any (since it's in the opposite direction from the air rotation).
Okay, people, can you tell I have no life and have watched way too many jumps frame-by-frame on my DVD player trying to figure this stuff out? ROFL!!

have watched way too many jumps frame-by-frame on my DVD player trying to figure this stuff out? ROFL!!


LOL I've done the same thing!! looks like we're both crazy or obsessed!

It's impossible to do a triple loop jump without turning a quarter and a bit on the take off. Any high level skater can tell you this.

I pointed out that the governing bodies of figure skating recognize a Loop jump as a full-rotation jump, not a 3/4 rotation jump. If you're contesting physics or skaters' abilities, start a campaign with the ISU or a new thread where people can discuss it civilly without overacting.

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