I think you'll find they probably do have patch ice (it's called "patch" or "teaching" ice in this country, not freestyle ice), but you aren't aware of it yet! I know they have at least one patch session before the dance club ice on a Sunday morning, and I imagine they have patch every day before the rink opens to the public.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

WE ARE TALKING 6 YEARS OLD AND YOUNGER. BEGINNING ADULTS HAVE WEIGHT, HEIGHT, AND AWARENESS (AT LEAST) EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE TOTAL COORDINATION, YET. THIS IS ABOUT TODDLERS!

This is not about snobbery of one adult skater as oppossed to another. So, AndreaUK we are not talking about you--no need to throw in the towel.

Okay, I have another thing to say about TODDLERS in cute little skating dresses wearing helmets. You think they are safe on a high freestyle session as long as they are with their coach? Well, all it becomes is DOUBLE THE TROUBLE (both the Toddler and the Coach by the kid's side make for one big dangerous package when your coming through.)

Oh, by the way, Sonic...I'm a girl.

Fundamentally, the issue is not enough ice time and multiple levels / kinds of skaters. How this is resolved is up to each individual rink or club offering ice, and there are clearly a multitude of ways this is currently handled. In an ideal world, we'd have separate sessions for LTS, low freestyle, high freestyle, moves, dance, and pairs. But this is reality. If I have to come down on one side or the other, I come down on the side of safety rather than inclusion on figure skating sessions. YMMV.

One of the questions asked along the way here is how to make things better. That depends on what the problem is and what the options are in your specific skating world. We're not going to find a one-size-fits-all solution.

Like I said a few post ago.. Im an ideal world I guess every level would have ice.
But I bet in at least 90 percent of the markets, that will not happen. In most rinks, you have a few hours of ice every day period.It has to be shared.
I guess the people who feel this is an real issue and need the space can buy the ice themselves and then they can choose who skates.
My so called toddlers have been on fs ice since age 4.Its what what works for our club and our rinks and our skaters.We all know we must get along and play nicely.I would rather have my 5 year doing his programs run thoughs on Fs ice than the public ice with hockey boys on it.
We did have a senior level girls doing triples who used to buy 30 minutes of ice cause she felt like she needed the space.

I think it would be fairly accurate to say that in many instances, there are more lover level skaters then high level, except at a relatively few development centers. It's like a pyramid
Numbers of attendance at MOST rinks:


hi freestyle
low freestyle
learn to skate
p u b l i c

No one is denying the rights of the lowers levels. In fact, the status quo is that they get their way more times then not, sometimes at the expense of the minority, higher level skaters. A by product of this (maybe it's a good thing) is that it drives good skaters right out of that rink seeking the few places where they can open up all cylinders without the fear of squashing someone. In the same way that all skaters were once the LTS crowd, it's equally true that someday, some of the LTS crowd will end up being elite skaters or skilled adult skaters needing room and the cooperation and awareness of everyone on the ice to get through programs, MIF, fast dances etc. Maybe it can be said that no one will ever get to elite or proficient adult unless they have quality no-toddler ice at least some of the time.

A note about new slow adults. There is one big difference. They often hug the side and are looking around intensely, if for no other reason then just fear. That is a far cry from the toddler looking down, marching straight into someones spin!!!!!

If a rink has a true hi level session(s) problem is solved as long as it's enforced. It's a given that if there are hi level sessions, then hi skaters will make more comprimises on the regular sessions and not have the same expectations as their hi level. 'Exceptions' destroy everything here. A high level is no longer a high level if exceptions are made for lower level kids and their coaches. At the 1 single hi level we have at my rink, a long term exception has been made for 1 person. (I have no idea why). That person stands at the ends, (ususally just watching other skaters), right where I have to bring my MIF end patterns and I usually have to abort them 2 or 3 at a time. I estimate I lose about 10 minutes of my practice due to needed restarts. That same session has a coach on ice who often refuses to move from a dead standstill at the center of the ice. I've addressed that and hopefully it will change. (A whole thread could also be dedicated to the great need for general ettiquette from the coaching crowd, such as please don't give your lessons on the patch of ice right in front of the single entry exit door to the ice!)

About the fact that we don't live in an ideal world, and there is probably not a one-size fits all solution to the problem.

I think that we all agree that when we see a "Skating Princess/Toddler" marching obliviously around in a high-level freestyle session that as Adult Skaters we begin to say something to management, coaches, or parents, which ever seems more reasonable given the specific context.

I think this is something we can agree to begin doing collectively to solve this problem...make our voices heard. I will do this where I skate and I hope that others will try to do the same for the sake of everyone's safety.

Okay, good idea Pairsman2...I'm starting the new thread on skating etiquette right now.

Bye everyone!

Lovepairs

I do agree its plain dangerous for a small child to be on a FS session. I also agree with the comments that there are no solutions that will fix all. Also I would imagine that this topic has been debated, discussed and argued for many years not just hear and now. I think it will always be an ongoing thing too. Basically looking at lots of points of view its a case of everyone being aware of each other and respecting one another on the ice. I do think though that little children who do not have experience, expertise, motor control etc should perhaps skate on a seperate session more suited to their age and needs purely for safety issues.

However the good thing ive noticed about our patch sessions is that everyone has mutual respect for each other and so far I havent seen any problems.

this post just made my day

This has to be the funniest thing I've ever read! Especially coming from you...being not much higher than a LTS'er. LTS in USFSA teaches you through lutz and axel preparation which based on what I know about you...you are years away from.


I think its not the age of a skater, or their skill that qualifies them over another skater to use freestyle ice.

If I'm skating my program, I don't give a crap if there are 6 year old LTS kids on the ice as long as they are able to give me the right of way if I have it. If a young child is on the ice with their coach and i am practicing by myself- it would be plain rude to expect here to move out of the way for me.


Its all about right of way- and if you can respect it and know the rules i don't see a problem with you being on the ice- whether you're 6 or 46 or even 86.

Being a LTS kid does not make you a 3rd degree skater...nor does being 6 years old. I think its the job of the rink and coaches to speak to parents or any skater that is causing trouble and ask them to leave the ice.

Beachbabe,

Could you please explain "right of way" etiquette on the new "Etiquette" thread. I think it would be really helpful and spark some good conversation about "right of way."

Best,
lovepairs

I'm in Canada. I skate occasionally at a competitive club that offers open sessions during the day when the ice is dead. ANYONE can be on this ice, 3 year olds, hockey kids, senior men, pairs teams, international dancers and yes adults from beginners to advanced.

(alright I was a bit intimidated when the pairs showed up one day).

the rules are:

You must have a coach on the ice with you and be receiving a lesson the entire time (so it gets expensive).
The club must have a contract in place with that coach. Not everyone is approved.
The coach is only allowed to have one skater or team under their supervision at any time.

The rules on the ice are the same as anywhere: Stay out of the way of skaters who have their music on, and try to stay out of the way of the coaches when they are intently in a lesson.

If you're not currently skating, get yourself to the side of the ice.

If you get in someone's way, APOLOGIZE.

Which is how I got a really sincere "sorry" out of Jeff Buttle one day.

Notice what is common here? For insurance and risk management purposes and ownership of the ice, the club sets the boundaries and are very good at enforcing them.

Coaches who do not follow those rules or have skaters follow those rules lose their ice privileges.

There are the usual evening sessions, high/low dance and freestyle and if you don't have the right test, you don't get on the sesssion. Again, strong club ownership.

Sometimes I read these posts from you guys in the USA and it's darn scary!

I think the high/low issue will be interesting when my club tries it for the first time in September (when we re-open). The dividing line will be whether or not you have all your single jumps (except axel) or not (and makes no mention about ice dancing). Is this how it is divided at other sessions at other rinks? Could someone please enlighten me because I am ignorant about this.

So, everyone who is working on their jumps but doesn't have all of them will be on low-level and everyone else is on high UNLESS you are in a lesson then you go where into the session where your lesson is.

It still does nothing to resolve the issue of the little ones (or even the big girls) understanding or comprehending about yielding the right-of-way when someone is running through their program...they will just be marking time until their lesson or just be skating around working on moves.

I think this is going to create more problems that it solves.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

So you actually need to be taking a lesson the entire time you're on the ice? When do you practice? Or is the lesson rule only for open ice? That just doesn't make sense to me, you can't just show up and skate for the session? If I had to pay my coach for a 2 hour lesson, I'd be broke. There'd be no way I could afford that.

We have a Juv and above session and a Prejuv and above session at one rink. One other rink has an Axel and above session and a double jump and above session. At my home rink, most of our FS sessions are open.

This is a little off topic, but:

By the way, just because we are "TEAMS" don't assume that it's a good thing to make a Pairs/Dance session. It's like mixing oranges and mayonaisse.

NEWSFLASH:

Pairs do much better with freeskaters, and dancers do much better MIF folks. The common denominator is "patterns" not "teams" for dancers. The common denomintor is "freestyle" not "teams" for pairs.

I feel like SCREAMING everytime I see a Pairs/Dance session--ugh!!!

Our ice dancers have been "banned" from club ice because of the "danger" they created...even though they did an excellent job of manuevering around everyone! They NEVER even came close to colliding with anyone! I have seen more collisions and close calls from the freestylers than with our ice dancers...

We have no pair skaters.yet. Our only boys are 18 and 6 years of age.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I'm pretty lucky; my primary rink is very FS-oriented. The rule is that a skater must have passed FS3 (ISI, that is; salchow, toe loop, change foot spin, back spiral, etc.) in order to skate any FS session. As a corollary, the lower-level skaters practice and have their private lessons during public sessions. We have publics seven days a week, and more than one most days. Given these circumstances, things work pretty well. Most of the year the FS sessions are not divided by level, but during the summer they are divided as follows:
Low - no-test through preliminary
Middle - pre-juvenile through intermediate
High - novice through senior

A lot of the summer sessions are combined low/middle or middle/high.

Another rink I skate at occasionally (and where jenlyon skates too) allows absolutely anyone on FS ice; I've seen skaters working on triples at one end of the ice and absolute beginners in rental skates and helmets learning swizzles at the other end. That's one reason I don't skate at that rink very often.

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

Thanks lovepairs this is a snip from my thread on page 3, and I forgot to mention that the child was with a coach, its the most horrifying sight I have ever seen.

<Samba>it’s like a car hitting a child, they go right up in the air, in this case the advance skater tried to catch the child and ended up with a dislocated thumb, the child however came off a lot worse and ended up with a cracked skull.

lovepairs - heads up! Kids are baby goats. And yes I'm perfectly happy with my daughter just the way she is. I can't even reply to the rest of your post cause it made me so darn mad!

And yes I do think she's a figure skater. And what I think seems to be the problem is people with bad attitudes, who would prefer adult only skating sessions. Well face the facts, the learners bring in the $$$ in most places, as do the public sessions, so chances of them being barred from most ice time is pretty slim.

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

AW,

You want to continue to think your little one is an accomplished figure skater who has the where withall to get out of the way when a pair team is coming down the lift lane at full speed then countinue to put her on high-level session and play Russian roulette with her safety--be my guest. Would you send her out on the highway to play in traffic? It's a free country, and apparently a total free for all at most rinks. Do whatever you want, because the system is set up that way to pander to parents just like you. They don't give a darn about your childs safety, they just want your money. You seem to be on the same page with management.

However, I've made a commitment to say something to rink, or club management whenever I see a Toddler (I mean a toddler) on a high free style session.

You can do whatever you want, she's your kid, good luck! The big irony here is that I don't even have kids and seem to care about your kid's safety more then you do. From someone who wasn't blessed to have children, let me say how LUCKY you are to have her, and encourage you, as her parent to watch out for her safety on the ice.

I agree with you, Lovepairs. Sorry, but there are times and places that are NOT suitable for toddlers, and it's about time some parents woke up and realised that the earth does not revolve around their [baby goats] ooops I mean children.

You know the ironic thing?

If (God forbid) an accident occurs, you know who will get the blame.

The star-struck parent who thinks their three year old is a skater? NO! It will be the poor unfortunate skater who trips over it!

S xxx

I am an adult skater that has the presence of mind to watch out for the other skaters when I am on the ice. Saying that, I have only been on ONE true freestyle session. I have a hard enough time concentrating on my skating, let along paying attention to the other skaters and if I need to get out of their way. Factor in my hearing loss and it compounds the problem.

Skating is hard enough. Add all these other problems and it becomes even more difficult.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Our pairs skaters are all well over 40, and in some cases in their 60s and 70s! Don't seem able to interest the young in pairs (wonder why not?!)

Our dance couples do, occasionally, use Figure Club ice (I have been known to myself; in fact both Husband and I belong to both Dance and Figure club - Husband is on the committee of both, but then he likes committees, I don't!), on the run-up to a competition, but none of us would dream of doing compulsory dances on that ice, we would think that rude. We do feel free to do our free dance, though, although we wouldn't if it was interfering with anybody doing serious work, which they tend not to on club ice. Used to be a really quiet session, alas, not no more.

And it was on Figure Club ice that we came nearest to having a Nasty Accident when a child in the power-skating class very nearly cannoned into my skate while I was in a lift (for our interp couples, not dance, for once!). Managed to avoid her, but it worried me....

I overheard Little Princess' mother this morning reminding her to be very careful and stay out of our elite teams' way - they have been on holiday, and kids that age take some reminding. She is very good about not getting in the way, though, and we have been known to take advantage of her music (she's learning her Level 2 Compulsories, which has music we need this year, very useful). And oh, you should have seen her trying to stretch at the boards like the "big ones".... so sweet.... she couldn't quite reach to the top of the barrier, even with her free leg almost vertical!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

This is a very interesting thread. As I have said, I'm the mother of a 6 year old. Don't let her hear you say she is a toddler! She skates with kids who are 8 through 12 and keeps up quite nicely. She can land up to a flip and has a nice spiral and spins well. We are very lucky to have a club that has junior, senior and open ice and yes, she she skates on the open session provided it is not too busy. In the summer we have junior, intermediate, and senior ice and the skating director tells you where to skate.

Now, if we didn't have all these divisions where would you have me put her? She is six so it sounds like many of you would have her on LTS ice. Would that be safe for the LTS kids? The difference between her and the LTS kids is about the same as the difference between her and a some of the kids on the senior ice. She can't practice with LTS, and they are intimidated by her. I have no problem with the idea that LTS kids shouldn't be on FS sessions provided they have practice time of there own. But please don't assume because a child is 6 they are an LTS skater. Session divisions need to be made based on ability and when you have divisions it may mean everyone has less ice time. If your rink doesn't have LTS practice time or private lesson time, how will those kids ever improve and become "real" figure skaters? Depending on how long the FS sessions are, maybe suggest to your rink that the first 20 minutes be for LTS skates only to have practice and or private lessons. This shortens the FS session but makes sure there is no one "marching around with their head down." Of course, this still doesn't deal with the large group of 6 year olds who are neither senior nor LTS. If we don't encourage these 6 year olds there will be very few people on the senior FS sessions in a few years and then what will happen to that ice time?

Going back to something I suggested earlier, I guess the best approach the best approach be to say that skaters can skate on patch sessions provided they are at a minimum level and have to be 'recommended' by their coach.

IMHO there should be a minimum age - it depends on the individual child of course, some 5 and 6 year olds will have ability and awareness of those around them, but I still say kids under that age are simply too young and do not yet possess sufficient motor skills.

S xxx