I'm starting this thread, so that we can begin to have a broad discussion about overall rink/club management, and maybe find a way to solve some of these problems. I'd like to open this discussion by asking the following question:

How many of you have "toddlers" barely out of diapers on freestyle, or high level freestyle sessions, with their proud parents at the side boards looking on, while high level skaters, pairs and dance teams wizz by the kid who should be in the Learn-to-Skate sessions/program. You can identify these kids easily, because they are usually under 2' tall, barely weighing 50 lbs, no awareness, no body control, with cute little skating dresses, adorned with helmets.

Can anyone please tell me what these parents and coaches are thinking?!

I think that there trying to get if of their children really quickly, or claim there childs life insurance. Nice way to do it though

We have this problem all year & it's very dangerous! For both the big ones and the little ones, and it has always appalled me that the parents don't get that. Mainly it's the group class kids, looking down at their feet, and puttering around in one little spot on the ice.

The solution is terribly simple: designate practice sessions (they only need 1 or 2 a week!) that are solely for the kiddies, and require a certain skill level to be allowed on the other practice sessions.

My rink is run by idiots, so that will never happen. All they see is money coming in.

I distinctly recall one instance years ago when a 3 year old (dressed exactly like you said, btw!!) was always out on the freestyle sessions. Several of us almost killed ourselves bailing out of things in frantic efforts to avoid hitting her. Several of us complained to rink management, who actually did have a word with the parents. The parents balked, saying she was "a real figure skater" and deserved to be on figure skating ice---and the rink backed down.

I've seen similar things at lots of rinks, so it seems to be a wide spread problem. I just can't believe no one's gotten seriously hurt.

Most rinks in my area won't allow a rookie on a freestyle without a coach. In fact, my home rink kind of "hides" the freestyle schedule from the parents to avoid this situation. (It's printed on our Elite skaters brochure, which is only for skaters who've passed a USFSA MITF/Freestyle/Dance test.)

As a coach, I really don't like having beginners on the freestyle sessions, although there are times when it's needed. When kids are skating in a competition at a low level (like ISI Tot), they have to practice their routines to music and a freestyle's the only way to do it.

I have a 11-year old beginner who's been skating on a semi-freestyle session for a few months. (The session ended two weeks ago) She's only on for her 30-minute lesson and I'm with her the whole time. I say it's a "semi-freestyle" session because the ice is actually reserved for our Elite Skaters program. There are three groups of 8-10 skaters learning/practicing some fairly high-level maneuvers. But, they're in groups, so they stay in a specific area of the ice and are supervised by a coach. So, it's okay that I keep this kid in a corner, or bring her around the perimeter of the rink. The truth? The kid's scared to leave my side because she's concerned about getting whacked by one of the other skaters. I spoke to the mother yesterday about summer ice time and I explained that her daughter would be intimidated by a "real freestyle" since it's the same number of skaters but everyone's doing something on their own, often without supervision.

So, I agree that putting a rookie on a freestyle by her/himself that's busy and fast is foolish. But, having a kid take a lesson or practice a routine with a coach, that's okay. When I see this situation, I take the kid and the parents aside and explain that it's a bit scary out there and go over the freestyle rules with both parties. (Who has right-of-way, stay near the wall, what corner to avoid, etc.)

__________________

My club is too small and the ice time is too limited to split sessions by levels. However, we do have one session following group lessons where Learn-to-Skaters have the right of way and any higher test skaters who elect to skate on that session MUST yield to and look out for the others. Learn-to-skaters who want to skate on the remaining sessions must be having a lesson and must have joined Junior Club. It keeps the chaos down and injuries are rare.

One of the rinks where I (and pairman and lovepairs) skate did print out specific rules listing who was allowed on FS sessions and such. As pairman said in the other thread, you are supposed to be in at least FS 1 to be on a freestyle session, and there are also "low FS" sessions where skaters have to be in Basic 5 (I think) or higher to skate there. There is an "asterisk" to these rules, though, and that is if a skater has a private lesson, they are allowed on, but they're supposed to leave the ice when their lesson is over, but this is never enforced (actually, I do sort of agree that the kid should be able to stay for the entire session, b/c the parents did pay the ice fee - but the problem is that kids skate sessions where they don't have lessons).

I will say, though, that I still think it's safer for a beginner to be practicing on FS ice rather than public sessions - I agree that the solution might be to have a "beginners" session once a week. The problem is that it probably wouldn't be profitable for the rink, since the lion's share of their money comes from higher-level skaters, and as others have pointed out, rinks generally value their bottom line above all else. And a problem with so-called low sessions that I frequently see is that high-level skaters will get on and practice things that really don't belong but technically don't violate the rules, like Senior MIF patterns, high-level dances, flying camels - OK, they're not double and triple jumps, but still....

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

The rink I skate at does this... allows LTS kids on FS sessions. Our "during the school year" afternoon FS sessions are supposed to be capped at about 25 skaters, but there's often as many as 30-35, at levels ranging from Senior FS down to "can barely stop" plus the occasional private lesson hockey skills skater.

I don't have a major problem with this as long as the LTS skater is with the coach, if it's a LTS private lesson. The problem is after or before the lesson, and these skaters are often so focused on what they just learned that they are oblivious to the skaters around them.

I have seen many near accidents (I've been in a few close calls while doing compulsory dance with my coach during my lesson.)

Yesterday, we had the camp kids on the same freestyle as 2 senior ladies. The other sheet of ice was supposedly dead ice but one of the hockey teams took it over. I have no idea how it's going to be today.

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

This brings up what typically happens during our club ice time...LTS kids and adults on the same ice as higher level freestylers; but no one really following the ice rules ! We have kids from ages 4 to an adult aged 73. It gets quite busy. Add competition practice and it's maddening!

I believe this coming year they are going to split the ice into high/low times but this opens up another can of worms. High is for the skaters that have all their single jumps. Several of us "bigger" skaters don't have all our single jumps but we can still move pretty fast and if we are on the ice with the little kids.... And, they are still allowed on high ice if they are in a lesson (and who will make sure they leave when their lesson is over? and, they do get to warm-up so they get some warm-up time so that blows the high/low right there in my opinion).

If they just appointed an ice monitor in the first place some of the collisions/near hits could have been avoided. And, everyone SIGNS the ice rules, but they don't necessarily abide by them.....

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

This is why I don't practice on freestyle sessions unless I'm getting a lesson from my coach. I'm still in Freestyle one so I kind of feel inferior to the other girls(and guys sometimes) who are doing double jumps and freakishly amazing spins around me. Our rink lets anyone who is taking private lessons use the freestyle ice, but there are open, low and high sessions so that makes it slightly better and easier for me to stay out of the way of most of the better skaters. But it's annoying even for me when there are 5 years olds just wandering around the ice, and just keep going straight in the direction that I'm going backwards in, so I have to bail out of what I'm doing so I don't crush the poor thing.

What? You mean some freestyle sessions actually have rules? And some rinks/clubs actually make you sign them? What a dream that would be, LOL! My club freestyle session is all about bringing in the bucks and I have never even heard of any rules. I personally think a skater needs to have either passed the first MIF test or be in a lesson in order to be on a FS session (unless they divide them up and offer a low level FS, which our rink doesn't).
I don't mind if a little kid is on the freestyle ice during a lesson, but little kids should never be left alone because they are completely oblivious to their environment and also don't have the skating skills to get out of the way of a skater who is skating her program. I think some of these parents are really blind; it's not about whether a child should have the "right" to skate on a freestyle session, it's about whether the child is safe skating on the freestyle session! Defensive skating means the ability to avoid running into people but it also means the ability to get out of another skater's way, especially if that skater is skating her program or is in a lesson.

Quite frankly, this is one of the side benefits of requiring you to be a club member to use club ice, as my club does. We do it primarily for financial reasons, but it has the effect of limiting club ice to those who are more advanced. Most people don't join USFSA until they need to take a USFSA test, so you've almost got a de facto minimum limit there.

I agree with all your points. I would like to point out the ice availability/schedule often causes this problem. If the only time their child can skate is a freestyle session, many parents will take the chance. That's why most rinks don't post/distribute the freestyle schedule: to keep the sessions from enticing parents of rookies. Rinks with a generous public session schedule don't have to deal with this often.

Think about your rink: what does the schedule afford for working parents or kids in school/camp? If the rink offers an early evening freestyle, but no similar publics, the parents will consider putting the kid on there. We have to offer them options that are safer and more consumer-conscious.

Skating on Club ice is a great solution, if the rules are enforced. Given that many Clubs also run the LTS sessions, it gets harder for them to turn away their LTS students. Can you really "appoint" an ice monitor? Many of the Clubs I've belonged to are begging for volunteers. No one wants to be the bad guy or to be tied down to a responsibility if they also work.

__________________

Isk8NYC, You bring up many good points. It's true there are no sessions available for practice (public) at my rink after school other than club ice. This forces the little ones to skate ON club ice. Sometimes the weekend public sessions are very crowded and even more dangerous than club ice.

We have people clammoring to be music monitors but no one wants to be ice monitors. But don't the coach's have a responsibility to remind their students of the rules every now and again (especially when they SEE them commit an infraction)? And shouldn't we say something also? I know I do.....it may not get me any new friends but I'm there to skate safely.

I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'll shut up now.

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Many rinks tie the LTS program with practice ice. For example, a 30min lesson followed by 30 minutes of practice time. Other rinks offer free admission to the public sessions for the duration of the LTS session.

One of the skating school directors I met at the ISI conference mentioned that they have a Saturday morning LTS practice session. Parents are welcome to skate with the student, and they can bring friends for a small fee. Initially, I didn't like the "come back later another day" approach, but given this thread, it's probably a good solution that would keep them off the freestyles.

__________________

Yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of that. We have evening public sessions that start at 8:00pm, but they are on Sundays and Thursdays (school nights). The other public sessions are on Saturday and Sunday during the day.

Your rink's not alone: how many weeknights between 5 and 8 are filled with hockey programs? We had one (1) half-hour freestyle at 5:30pm. All the other freestyles were in the early mornings or the early afternoons. My kids can't skate regularly at the rink I teach at because of the scheduling. But, hockey rules, right?

Then rink managers/skating directors wonder why "National Skating Week" campaigns don't really result in many skating school/hockey clinic registrations. It's because one event or one week just isn't enough to get people hooked on spending several hundred dollars for a beginner. You need to keep bringin' 'em back for a few weeks to decide they/the skaters like it enough to pull out their wallets.

If more rinks offered well-timed public sessions instead of locking up prime-family-ice-time with hockey and figure skating, more skaters would be looking to come into the LTS/LTP prorams when they're ready instead of "being in the way." An added bonus is that the skaters would achieve more when they start lessons if they had some practice time available. Rink managers don't view public sessions as "feeders" for their other programs, and that's a problem. They feel that, if the public session isn't jam-packed, it's a failure. When you have an empty public session, you need fewer guards on the ice, there are fewer injuries, and it's an opportunity to "sell" the rink and its staff. Instead, many rinks just cut the public sessions because they can make more money renting the ice to a hockey league or skating club.

__________________

At my freestyle session the kids range from singles to doubles (no double lutz nor double axel). I'm probably the weakest of the bunch but I have a good idea of many of the girls' programs and I can realize the set ups of jumps to get out of their way. I really have no idea if they are annoyed if I'm there or not, but there are no rules posted about the level you need to be on the session and the skating director did not mention anything otherwise to me. It's quite difficult to get ice time in the summer, and this is the chance I have to skate with few skaters on the ice and practice both freestyle and MITF.

That's normal: most people want to control the music, if only to make sure their little Susie gets her share, or to prevent a "tape hog" from going out of control.

Ice monitoring is a tough one to get volunteers for: you have to be willing to confront parents/skaters who aren't playing nicely. Many clubs offer a $$ discount or rebate (in the form of a punch card) to attract takers.

Yes, all the coaches on that session should be on the same page in terms of rules. That's the Skating Director or Club Head Pro's responsibility. A visiting pro can be cut some slack, but not for long. I taught at a rink nearby where, out of the blue, the Club President decided all "On Program" skaters had to wear a sash. She enforced it for one day, and it was great. Within a month, my students were the only ones still wearing the sash.

__________________

i've never really been shocked to see yet another 5 year old on freestyle ice with a frilly dress, a helmet and an $800 pair of skates. Its very annoying but at the same time, its not the parents fault. There really isn't a more appropriate session for the kid to be on. A public session is even more hazardous and we don't have sessions for kids.

Usually I just try to stay well clear of the child. What does bug me, is when the kids are on an intermediate freestyle when there is a low freestyle session jsut 30min. before. I'm sure that talking to the parents wouldn't solve the problem either because they all think their baby is "a REAL figure skater"

Okay, I'd like to clarify this to get this back on track:

Isk8NYC,

The 11 year olds who have awareness and some body control are not a problem with, or without a coach. I'm specifically talking about the Toddlers, who are 4-5 years old, still babies, with no body control and awareness. Even with a coach these little ones are dangerous and in danger. It's ironic that I posted this thread today, because I skated a session with one pair team, one upper level dance team, three freestylers with doubles, and adult single skater doing axels, and 5 babies around 6 and under with, yes 'o yes, daddy standing their with gleaming eyes looking on while his little princess found her way through a WAR ZONE! I'll get back to this in a minute...

Phoenix,

You are right on target with everything that you said (see above quote.)

Okay, it seems that we are all having this problem. The toddlers really belong in the Learn-to-Skate sessions. Rink management for the most part won't correct this, very few clubs have anyone monitoring sessions (even if rules are in place,) so, my question now is there anything we can agree to do "collectively" to try to solve this problem? I mean, the only ones who can really look out for these babies' safety are the adult skaters, because it seems that their parents are clueless, and the clubs and rinks are unable to enforce structure, or don't want to because of $$$. Do these little princesses really have to get hurt before Adults do something about it? Any ideas?

This was an issue that has been talked about repeatedly, but $$$ wins out. To keep from losing club members, the requirement is loosely-enforced "proficient in back crossovers OR working with a coach" requirement to join our club.

We do have practice sessions before/after LTS lessons and two public skate sessions (Saturday and Sunday). There is an open "freestyle" session during the week, it's just a skate session for figure skaters and hockey players for skills development. Three club ice sessions during the week. Everything else is hockey. My rink's emphasis is recreational. And hockey.

So, for now, the little kids are allowed to skate on club ice (but ice dancers were banned because they were "dangerous" even though they dodged everyone and more accidents happened with the little kids).

We will see how it goes in the fall with the new "high/low" sessions.

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

There's a rink just 1.5 miles from me that's perfectly nice, and is only $5/hour. But I don't slate there specifically because of this problem (and because their coaches really suck). I'm perfectly content to drive 25 minutes to the suburbs and pay $9/hour to have ice that's designated by level (and with great coaching and allows me to patch). For my extra time and money I get much more accomplished.

This is a really good thread and come to think of it, there was a incident at my rink two weeks ago.
Little girl about 5 or 6, cute dress, on lesson.
Teenage girl with dance coach on lesson
Dance coach and student are whizzing by and collide with little girl. Dancer's free leg with blade hit little girl in the thigh, and went right through her tights/
IMHO, both parties (dance skaters and Little Girl's coach) are at fault. People need to look out at all times,period. I've had to dodge both the dancers and this coach's students on my lessons several times!!

__________________
Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

I taught Mommy and Me for several years. That's a toddler-specific class we designed to be a good intro to skating for tots, and threw in a mom/dad lesson as well. It was generally a great experience for the kids as well as the parents. (If the KID wanted to skate, that is... ) I put on kids' music, we played with toys and held skating games. Nothing too formal, just a quiet, fun session without a lot of skate traffic. That's the ideal environment. Many of the kids who came through that class stuck with skating and are now very good hockey players and figure skaters.

As for my 11-year old student, she doesn't belong on a freestyle without a bodyguard and she knows it, I just had to explain it to the Mom in terms she could understand.

What can you do? How about telling every parent of a out-of-place tot that they should ask the office about a beginner's practice session. Call and inquire yourself - try to drum up interest among parents you know. If enough people ask, the skating school may comply. (Depends on how much pull they have with the rink schedule.)

__________________

I just want to point out one advantage of allowing younger kids on a freestyle when in a lesson with a (vigilant) coach. This year I taught a 6 yr old who came up with me through the Mommy & Me. The only time available for both of us was a freestyle. Over the course of the season, I saw this child go from clueless to acutely aware. I was right with her every second and was frequently pointing out skaters as they approached and telling her things like "let's move over here to be out of x's way". I do not think she is quite ready to be on a freestyle unaccompanied, but it is more because she isn't yet fast enough, than because of a lack of awareness. I think one of the big problems on freestyle sessions is the coach who does not teach her/his students to watch out for others.

__________________