Hasn't the change become official for adults for next year though? If we're still sorting out and lyrics won't actually be allowed for next year, the USFS might want to make that clear NOW just so that any adults putting together a new program over the summer don't think "sweet! vocals!", jump on board with the new rule, only to find themselves scrambling weeks before they compete to throw together a new program because they found out that vocals won't be allowed after all. I know some people who were already thinking vocals for new programs.

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Thanks - I thought the same thing: "It's a done deal already." Maybe it's being interpreted by the Adult Committee?

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The RFA from Governing Council this year is "vague" on adult events.

Rob

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The RFA was vague, but the "Important and/or Urgent Changes from 2009 Governing Council" document is very clear.

The only gray area I read is when an adult event is conducted under the IJS judging system because "up to and including the intermediate level" doesn't give a test level on the adult track.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Conte...%20Council.pdf

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I think "up to and including intermediate" is clear for adults since after gold, there are no more adult tests and you go to intermediate. BUT the problem there is that intermediate and novice are typically lumped together for champ events, and sometimes it's even lumped with junior and senior as one category. And right now the only time we use IJS is nationals right now (and other smaller comps able to get it, like Peach).

If we're going the lyrics route, I think it either needs to be all levels for adults, or cut off lyrics at gold and then masters and above have to go without. That seems like it would be the most logical place.

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But, here's the EXACT rule and words that was passed:
(from page 24 of http://usfsa.org/Content/200809%20Combined%20ROA.pdf )


130. APPROVED AS AMENDED - Submitted by: Pat St. Peter, Midwestern Vice President

Amend rule 3502(A), (page 252 Rulebook) to read as follows:

For singles and pairs short program and free skate, vocal music with lyrics is not permitted except as follows: for all short and free skate programs up to and including the intermediate level and for all events using the 6.0 system of judging, vocal music with lyrics is permitted.

This was declared urgent to go into effect at the close of the Governing Council.


I was not at Governing Council this year, so cannot comment on the discussion that took place, or how it could have been better worded.

I can understand where some people try to make Adult Gold FS and Intermediate FS equivalent, but they aren't. There is a crossover rule for taking tests, but Adult Gold has limits on the jumps that are not found in the Intermediate Short or Freestyle events in the rulebook.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...BP%20Chart.pdf
http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...FSElements.pdf

Rob - just my opinions, you mileage may vary.

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

There's also an earlier blurb in that document that says lyrics are okay for test programs.
The quote you gave says that 6.0 means that lyrics are okay, IJS means they're not allowed above intermediate.

The only questionable adult events are what Rachel pointed out with the Championship and local competitions.

Is that what you're trying to clarify with this discussion, or will the Adult Committee try to amend the rules for all Adult Track skaters?

I know that an earlier thread said that this amendment was a last-minute item, late in the meeting. Still, I wonder why it was declared "urgent" and had to be effected immediately? Was it to comply with new ISU rulings, as mentioned previously?

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I don't think you can assume the adult levels through Gold were included in the "Intermediate and below" category, since there is an age limit in Intermediate that may have come into play when deciding to use Intermediate as the cutoff.

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I belive ISU rules were what came into play (somewhat) in determining the cutoff. The ISU recognizes novice, junior and senior, and therefore ISU rules govern what the USFS can/can't do with regard to these divisions. Outside of these three levels recognized internationally, all countries' federations are free to do whatever the heck they want with regard to adding more levels, how they structure tests, etc. (And federations can determine what is done to get to these three levels.)

Someone correct me if that's wrong, I'm going off of what happened with synchro. When synchro has had to take away/add back lyrics, it was mainly because of initially becoming a sport recognized by the ISU in 1994 and adopting ISU rules, and then the change to allowing lyrics again came with a change in ISU rules (hence why it only impacted junior and senior, since at the time those were the only levels recognized...we could do what we want with the rest of our levels, US novice teams at the time weren't competing internationally, so any level novice and below plus collegiate, adult, masters, and open jr could use lyrics).

What are international rules with regard to lyrics in adult skating?

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The only "modifications" to the normal ISU rules, for adults, is the ISU adult competition in Oberstdorff. This year's announcement is here:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

It appears the assumption is not vocals, since they explicitly allow them for the Original Dance, Free Dance, Artistic and Synchro events.

Rob

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

I personally like the idea of allowing vocals, but definitely see the advantages of instrumental music only for the technical program.

Vocals would also offer some needed variety in the fs programs. They all look alike now.

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I don't have a strong opinion either way. I skate ISI so I've had the freedom to choose vocals for my freeskate, but generally don't - it's harder because your choreography gets limited to expressing what the words are saying. Allowing vocals gives a wider choice of music, but I suspect we'll see plenty of people choosing instrumentals.

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I vote yes to lyrics. Having more options is better. You can always choose to skate to instrumental pieces if you like.

Yup. I prefer classical pieces, and I can see lovely programs to Puchini, the choir piece from Henry V, the a capella voices in Schindler's list, or Vocalise which was first written as a vocal exercise.

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My coach advised against using lyrics because the rule is very new. I was fine with that anyway.

They could immediately force variety by banning 'Phantom' from all adult events!!

Phantom, Diamonds are a girl's best friend, Jupiter from the planets, Rhapsody in Blue, Carmen.....

I like the idea of vocals as there are tons of vespers and morning prayers that would be quite nice. I'm not worried about adults picking inappropriate music as adults are already selecting vocal music, and it's not a major problem.

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Please let me know if I am reading the GC document correctly - all FS tests (including adult and standard, not just standard) can have vocal music to them?

If for tests people can use vocal music, I would think that it'd be easier to also permit vocals in competition - if not for all levels, then at least for some levels. It would encourage testers to compete - why not make it easier for them by letting them use the same music? If it is a question about where the level cutoff should be, I would suggest a cutoff at the events where IJS is used vs. where IJS is not used at AN.

Permitting vocals gives people more choice. If you are allowed to choose vocals, that does not prevent you from being able to choose non-vocals. I don't understand why people are requesting a restriction on our freedom of choice?

There already exist differences between interp and FS. In many competitions, for interpretive / showcase you are allowed to use a prop, which is not allowed in FS - and the judging emphases for interp are different from those in FS. There are different limits to the jumps in interp and FS.

Technically, the ISU governs nothing that USFS does within its own structure. For example, ISU novice has a very restrictive age limit, but USFS novice does not - it's the first competitive level without an age limit. USFS may choose to align its rules with ISU rules, but they are not forced to do so.

It's the same with synchro, we allow older skaters on our novice teams than the ISU does. That just means for international competition, anyone who qualifies to be sent by USFS has to be in compliance with ISU rules where they differ from USFS. I know those skaters, particularly in dance/free/pairs, are very few and far between. But what would it even mean for competing at a non-qualifying competition in Canada like a lot of skaters, particularly in the Great Lakes area, do?

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I don't know what Canadian rules are on vocals in lower competitive levels, but it's worth researching. I live very close to the border and there is definitely some crossover competing. Not nearly as much as there used to be, though.

Hey, I skated to Carmen and I didn't hear anyone complaining about it! I used an electric guitar version by a European star, though, so no one had heard this take on it.

techskater - then you gave the audience something different. I do get very tired of hearing the same music and seeing the same program. With the balanced program rules and IJS, the originality has suffered. So when you can be creative, as with the music, go for it.

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Then you would love to see the video of the Bronze Ladies III Group A FS qualifying event at AN this year. Out of the first 4 ladies, 3 had Phantom of the Opera!!! It was like "Battle of the Phantom." (Not attacking anyone, of course. Just found it amusing that this happened.)

I would like to throw in Nessum Dorma in there too for good measure!!! (My apologies to those of you that skated to it! It is a lovely piece... but there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing" too!!!)

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Thank you for the support, you guys!!!