To do IJS at Adult sectionals would require the LOC to bring in 3-5 extra officals (1-2 Tech controllers, unless there is a judge who is also an appointed tech controller, plus 2-4 tech specialists).... so minimum 3 extra bodies, maximum 6 extra bodies. How many needed would depend on the number of competitors in the IJS events.

Figure approximately $75-$100/night for hotel rooms for the extra officials... For a 2 day competition that's probably an average of 3 nights per official, so $675-$1800 extra in lodging costs.

If the LOC has to fly in the tech panel, figure a minimum of approximately $250-$300 in airfare per official, plus other reimbursable travel expenses--probably closer to $300-$350 per official--a range of $900 to $2100 for reimbursable traveling costs.

Cost for renting an IJS system is approximately $1000 to $1500 unless the LOC or a neighboring club has an IJS system or chooses to do paper IJS.

Cost for extra ice will depend on how many competitors register for the IJS events. That could be as little as 10 extra minutes or up to 30 to 60 extra minutes. So an average of somewhere in the $30-$300 range.

Cost to feed the extra officials: for a 2 day competition probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $60-70.

Add up these costs and you get a guestimate of about $2500 to $5700 (the high side is probably very high, but represents a worse case scenario... high travel & lodging costs, max number of tech panel, lots of extra ice time needed).

The delta in cost per probable IJS competitor would be enormous... the delta in expected entry fee cost across all competitors at an Adult Sectional would probably still be quite substantial.

I would have to collect entry numbers etc. to make this a more accurate estimate, but these estimates are based on the numbers my club is using to prepare a budget for the summer IJS competition we're hosting.

Just some food for thought.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I figured that would fail because of cost.

But I really liked your post outlining the potential cost, and probably just because you used the word delta instead of change

Time to work on the new moves! 8-step mohawk is 1/3 shorter now, that can only be a good thing! (Though I haven't figured out yet how to make it into a figure 8 pattern...)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Can Stormy or vesperholly (or someone else who's at GC) confirm if the implementation date for all MIF changes is now Sept 2010? A post on another board indicated that in the Thurs meeting, the committee changed the proposal after the attendees expressed the opinion that one date for all changes would be best.

Re the IJS costs,. what is the current cost for adult skaters to enter Sectionals vs the cost for the kids to enter IJS events at Regionals? I'm curious. If the costs to competitors are comparable, it seems that Sectionals LOC's have no reason not to be able to use IJS for Gold and Masters, at least for the Champ events. If Regionals LOC's can do it for the kids....

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Yes all moves are sept 2010. Will write more tomorrow, I am posting this from my iPod. But yes sept 2010 for every level.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I think the number of entries also makes a difference. I might be mistaken, but it seems like regionals would have many more entries. Although IJS events may not, the cost can be dispersed among non-qualifying events too.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Maybe because there are more skaters at standard track Regionals than at Adult Sectionals??
While I disagree with the result, can LOC's of Adult Sectional competitions at least be allowed to have IJS critiques for the Gold and above events, so that those skaters can adequately prepare for AN? Not every adult skater has a Technical Specialist right around the corner!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

Hear, hear, doubletoe!! If I can pass this test, which I did about a year ago (May 14 will be the one year anniversary) on the SEVENTH try- then anyone can!!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

this is a huge point - there are loads of areas where there are not available Tech Specialists - nor are there many local competitions that use IJS (I define "local" as within a 2 hour drive), even IF they had enough adults for an event, or heck, even if they offered a one-skater exhibition with an IJS critique at a competition where they're using IJS for standard track events. Every other year, there's a competition about an hour and a half from me that used IJS last time for the standard track, and after me asking, they ran the Adult Gold event with IJS too. There were luckily two entrants. But to get an IJS "viewing" of my skating once every two years outside of AN? It's really not enough.

Having IJS critiques at Sectionals makes a load of sense, and should be allowed.

Sara

Yup! Hear, hear too!!! I passed my Bronze FS test back on my 38th b-day two footed a loop landing and they said on my test notes that my sit spins need to be lower. (It's true, but I'm working on it. It's not consistent yet, which is why it didn't make it to Grand Rapids this year.) But I got the rest of the test dead on and they passed me on the presentation marks.

It was a close call though! I BARELY passed and I was NOT expecting to pass when I went in on my b-day. I took it so my primary coach would stop nagging me to take the test and humor him (and if I had had done things HIS way, I would have taken the test on the Labor Day test session so he can hurry up and work on my technical program for AN 07 in Chicago instead of me making my AN debut the following year at Lake Placid, even though it was really a more appropriate place to make the debut!!! )

So if anything, I think you should go thru a critique with a judge and see what happens. Won't hurt... you're not really getting tested. Other solution... if your test sessions are often (like monthly) and it's not expensive, go ahead and the test and use the test results as a "critique" to see where you are.

(I still can't believe I just did my SECOND AN!!! Unbelieveable!!! And I secretly hope the Chicago LOC would make another bid for AN so I would get to visit Chicago, the city (and not just the O'Hare airport!!! )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Some what relevant to the IJS discussion. Some of us don't live in areas where there are judges! I think there are only a couple in the state, as I know that almost all the ones our club uses for tests or competitions are from out of state.

A critique isn't possible! I'm willing to fail a test as a critique, but I've got to be close, or my coach won't allow it.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Well, yes, more entrants paying IJS entry fees does give more money to the LOC to help them meet their costs, but with more entrants comes higher ice time fees for the comp. So the overall cost for ice time, and food and lodging for judges and tech panelists, is higher for Regionals b/c of the length and numbers.

Jen's analysis was very informative, but I'm wondering what kind of specific analysis (using actual entry numbers) was done for Sectionals and presented at GC.

I think IJS critiques for Gold and Masters competitors is a good idea if they aren't going to use IJS in the judging.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I'm glad there is more time from the training of coaches and judges standpoint, as well as for people currently working on tests to get through them...but I don't see why the serpentine pattern on novice couldn't be done right away. It doesn't change the test a whole lot in terms of a skater, coaches or officials having to learn anything new, it just makes the test a whole lot shorter--thus cheaper for the club (and makes an overly lengthy test easier on the skater). If you're doing 4 novice tests on a test session, that's a lot of time dedicated to those moves you're freeing up.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

The issue isnt adults. The issue is the IJS costs a fortune to run.Case in point, we live in a state that now has only ONE comp.Local clubs have chosen to not run IJS comps this year.So they kids who want to go to regionals have one shot before going to regionals unless they want to travel outside to compete.We cant even drive to a comp that does IJS, even if it was a long drive.
I am sorry but its not just adults, its the system.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/alaskanmom

That is all we are having this year in state, but for one real comp in August. We are driving around 7 hours next weekened for a critque.Its cheaper to run so that is what the clubs are offerering. This is our first year of going to regionals and they cant go just with one comp all year.I dont think any of you have higher travel costs than we do!

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http://www.youtube.com/user/alaskanmom

Which is why we see all the AK skaters come down to AZ over the summer - we've all gotten to know quite a few because of Fiesta Skate and Cactus Classic, among others. But yes, you guys have it rough, though there are other states that have similar problems with lack of judging and lack of ice rinks (especially year-round ones) in general.

No matter what, I can understand the initiative not passing. It is expensive, especially for the clubs who always seem to have qualifying comps multiple years and then add Adult Sectionals as well b/c no other clubs bid. Which is a huge problem!

Any reports on the vocal/lyric allowance that passed for 6.0 events? What is it all about? How is it being used? I just don't get allowing vocals in FS (technical) programs under 6.0 when there are already artistic events.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

This could be optimized by treating it as a linear programming problem. Unfortunately, if the answer came back that costs increased faster than income, it wouldn't make any difference. However, it would tell you at what number you need to cap your participants as a way to limit your losses.

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Great forum quotes:
On Falling: '...it doesn't matter, it's what you do AFTER you fall that's more important' ISK8NYC

I don't think anyone is arguing that it's only adults vs. the system. I wasn't anyway.

Though IJS critiques have been specifically *disallowed* from occurring at Adult Sectionals - when cost is not the issue. Costs for a critique are vastly different from those at a competition (computer costs virtually go away; those who want critiques can pay for the lodging expenses etc; ice time is irrelevant as a video of the competition performance can be used).

I get that this issue (allowing critiques at Sectionals or any other competition for that matter) was in no way on deck at Governing Council.

Really? I never even saw that one. I think that's fantastic.
A lot of the kids at our rink just aren't interested in non-vocal programs. It's a huge expense or at least a big hassle to get music cut. I think 6.0 entries will go up with vocal music allowed. It will be easier to cut a program from "modern" music.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I heard that it passed, but I don't understand the logic, either.

I'll be judged under 6.0 for the foreseeable future and am planning on keeping my freeskate music lyric-less.

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I've got mad salchow disease!

I've never undrestood why vocals were disallowed in the first place. What was the reason for the rule?

Yes, the vocal music was passed. It's for up to and including Intermediate, under 6.0 only. It does include Adults. Personally, I was very against it. I don't feel vocals have a place in competitve skating (dance and synchro excluded). That's what we have interp and showcase for. Lyrics are distracting in a competitive program. If you're absolutely hell bent on skating with lyrics, do showcase, do inter, or do ISI.

That was presented as new business at the board of directors meeting, and voted on as one of the very last issues at the general meeting. I was shocked it passed with as many votes as it did. Did anyone outside of GC know it was even up for a vote?

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Distracting? umm . . . but does anyone know the official reason for disallowing vocals? I've been asking this question for several years and no one has ever been able to answer it. Was there discussion at GC?

On one hand, allowing vocals makes music selection easier. If you want to skate to "Living La Vida Loca" you can use the original recording without searching for an karaoke or instrumental version. Probably less expensive, but maybe not.

The lyrics sort of worry me. Think of the song "1985" which one of my kids wanted to skate to; one of the lines is "..she was gonna shake her a$$ on the hood of White Snake's car." That's inappropriate for an under-10 skater as well as the other competitors. You can get "sanitized" versions of some songs, including this one, by buying the Radio Disney versions, but a judge who knows the original lyrics might not realize you had a sanitized version.

It's the same situation as looking for one without vocals.

Perhaps that's why vocals were disallowed in the first place - people were concerned about what type of vocals the skaters would use or that lyrics in one language would mean something else in a different language and thus offend someone on the international level. (Which explains the limit)

Just a guess.

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But lyrics are allowed in dance and synchro. Why would that be any different as far as offensive choices are concerned?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I see what you're saying: I choreograph show programs (with lyrics) differently than competition programs (no vocals), interpreting the song's phrases. For example, "Daydream Believer" has a line about "wanting sunshine, getting rain." I had my show student raise her arms to make a sun, then drop them down to indicate rain. The audience loved the move. In a program without lyrics, that would make no sense at all, lol.

But, it could be a nice stepping stone for the lower-level skaters to learn movement and music. Many skate competitions more than shows, and interp is often pushed aside to save money or focus on the freestyle event. The downside is that this could reduce the number of skaters entering interp if they were doing that event because they loved the song.

I had no idea, I would have liked to chime in on this issue since all of my private students are Preliminary or lower.

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