Rob - I am confused about the 21/25-year old checkpoint. I understand that the RFA states that the age would be 21. Debbie used 25 because Lexi mentioned it a page back in this thread ...
Perhaps Lexi intends to bring this change (from 21 to 25) up for consideration before the GC votes on the RFA?
Can RFA's be amended at the GC in that manner?

__________________

I don't know- because some moves are more difficult on the body than others (choctaws for example require turned out hips)- so it's possible that a "problem move" might make a skater want to do a test they can't pass at the adult standard, but then resume standard track.

Or if you get a retry quite a few times- you finally give in and take adult standard, but then you'd like to give the next test at least a try at the standard track.

It's interesting to know this works differently then the dance track. That's confusing- as is the 3 uses of the word Master's.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Is the one pattern on senior MIF changing so that the choctaws in it come out though? Because that kind of defeats that argument if they're staying. (Sorry, I'm not all that familiar with the changes to the test that are coming in September...trying to get through junior first.) Granted it's only 2 choctaws, they're quicker, and most skaters I've seen working on that pattern flatten them to where they're mohawktaws and get away with it. (Like how everyone got away with mohawktaws on junior before they changed the focus from quickness to edge quality.)

Choctaws actually don't require turned out hips on their own. A single choctaw isn't hard, I love putting a back to forward choctaw in footwork or before a flip jump (RBO, LFI, then 3 turn). It's when you have to do them consecutively on deep edges (a-la junior pattern) that the step from the forward edge to the back edge is just a heck of a lot harder if you don't have the natural turnout from the hip.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Pretty much anything can be changed at GC, due to amendments, etc. If you have never been, it is interesting. That's how the vocal music rule change got slipped in, as a floor RFA; and there wasn't much time for anyone to digest it, before it was voted on.

However, I think that Lexi may have just had a slight typo with 25 instead of 21 in her post. I just checked the ballot that the Adult committee voted on, and it had 21 and 50.

Rob

__________________
Geriatric Figure Skating Crew - President for Life!
Georgia Figure Skating Club - President (again)
Facebook
____________________________________________
"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

Oh choctaws were just an example because I can't do them to save my life (and my coach is always telling me to turn my hips out on them, so I assumed that was the issue.). I don't even know where they are in the test sequence. But there are often "problem" moves that are just tough to get past.

But I do know a friend whose about given up on ever passing Intermediate- so if she goes for an "adult pass" and can then move to the next test at standard level, I bet she would try that before trying adult again, since most of the coaches in the area think the only reason she's not passing is because she is an adult.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I think the original plan was 25, because I clearly remember Lexi saying that at the adult committee meeting.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

But wouldn't she just have the same problem all over again on Novice standard track - not passing "because she's an adult"?

FWIW, I do not have open hips and can't do a spread eagle or ina bauer to save my life. I made it through the choctaws OK. If I can, you can!!!

Not necessarily- intermediate is kind of the bump from "adult tests" to "regular tests" now. So judges in this area seem to be really really hard on adults because they don't "need" the test. This particular skater has had multiple coaches watch her tests and they all think they are passing (coaches who have successfully gotten skaters through senior moves- they know the intermediate test). So since novice isn't the "bump"- judges aren't necessarily going to look at it the same way- they just know she passed intermediate, the judges won't know whether she passed it adult or standard.

Good to know on the choctaws I'm light years away from needing them on a test, but I just wish I could do them occasionally when given in group class footwork.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Novice is one of the tests (like Juvenile) that is very hard to pass. I've been told that it is harder than Junior and Senior. If your friend is having difficulty at Intermediate, chances are that she would not be able to pass Novice at standard requirements either. Of course the new requirements might play more to her strengths, since I understand that they are combining patterns so it might be less physically difficult. I'm not up on the changes.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I don't think novice (in its current state) is technically harder than junior or senior. Novice is just SO FREAKING LONG with all those laps around and around and around the rink to do the turns on the end patterns. Then junior in comparison is really short, just 4 elements, so skaters get through it much more quickly (especially since by the time you're on junior, the power circles shouldn't take much work, so really that's 3 elements that you actually need to put time into). Luckily the length of novice is changing though, they combined the 4 laps around the rink into one serpentine pattern with just the turns, no stroking. And no more bracket-3-bracket. That's the worst, most pointless pattern ever, it doesn't teach a skater to do proper brackets. 10 yrs ago they took it off intermediate in lieu of the current intermediate brackets (which do teach proper brackets), but then for whatever reason, they decided it was a good idea to tack it onto the (already long) novice test.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Yeah, that was a terrible idea. "This move is so hard, let's make it an even higher passing standard!" I do think it helps to learn double rockers that show up on Junior ...

Intermediate to Novice is a bigger jump than any other test. Novice introduces many skills that have no foundation in previous tests, like the rotate/counter-rotate motion for the rocker choctaws and the rapid foot changing of the 3-turn pattern. Novice was to date the only test that, after I passed Intermediate, I could NOT DO most of the moves. Not that I couldn't do them to passing standard, I couldn't do them at all. My coach had to literally hold my hand and push me into the rocker choctaws when I first learned them. I spent 4 years on Novice and 1.5 on Junior.

It's 25, as it is listed in the green sheets. The RFA was wrong.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

My coach is having to do similar things with me. Granted, I worked on Novice really infrequently before, but I thought I at least had a grasp of the concepts of it. Yeah, not so much. Like so many other things with my last coach, I was taught Novice MIF wrong too, so it's back to basics on those too. At least with a lower passing standard, I have a snowball's change to pass these at some point.

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I got the quick rocker choctaws quickly (ONE good thing old school synchro helped me grasp). You learned that counter motion from doing circles with an outside-facing hand or shoulder grip. I also learned quick brackets from synchro because in the 90s that was "hard" footwork. So I guess some good came out of all the other things synchro taught me that I had to break when I got to higher tests in moves/dance (and when synchro changed and there was much, much more emphasis placed on individual skating skills).

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

What are green sheets? If it's wrong in the RFA- and that passes, isn't that then what it becomes until it's amended the next year?

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

The green sheets are essentially a listing of the RFAs that the board sees fit to put forth at the meeting. I think of them as the items that have made it past the Qualifying Round.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

That is a brilliant analogy!! We will see how the final round goes. : )

Then, the ballot that the adult committee voted on was wrong too. It was exactly the same wording that was on the RFA.

Rob

__________________
Geriatric Figure Skating Crew - President for Life!
Georgia Figure Skating Club - President (again)
Facebook
____________________________________________
"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

Re. the adult passing average vs. standard passing average---I can see an issue possibly coming up w/ regards to qualifications/achievements on a coaching resume.

In dance, there's a very big difference between an adult gold medal and a standard gold medal. IMO, a coach w/ an adult dance gold medal who simply lists "gold dance" on their resume is unethical. While the moves aren't quite the same thing--you're still doing exactly the same moves (vs. dance where you don't have to solo), so maybe it's not such a big deal. But it does seem odd that I could pick & choose to take the easier over the harder if it was more convenient all the way up to senior, then work my butt off & take senior standard track, and end up with a 'standard' gold medal for MIF. Maybe it doesn't really matter though.

I get what you're saying but IMO, it's splitting hairs.

The RFAs were incorrect, apparently the proposal does allow you to return to the standard track after passing a test at the adult passing average. I can see that being contentious, and I really hope that doesn't become such a huge issue that it necessitates delaying its passage until next year.

Hopefully the GC people just don't really think about it too much, and then it can just be amended next year.

I'm interested to see what age it passes at- sounds like if the adult committee voted on it at 21, it would be that unless they amend it on the floor. Although at 28 and nowhere near intermediate moves its moot for me- but I'm a parliamentary nerd so I love following these proposals. (Have you seen the ISU ones- theres some crazy stuff in there- especially Novice age, which might not matter for the USA since they don't send novice skaters to internationals and their "novice" level is something different entirely)

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Stormy posted on FSU that the lower passing average passed- I wonder at which age


From the GC live blogger:
So it sounds like it's being recorded as a seperate test. If the ability to flip flop between tracks exists now, I bet next year it won't.

She also posted this:
So it sounds like there was some contention over the whole thing.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

**removed because people are saying mean things & she's not a jerk--she's a very knowledgeable adult skater who is allowed to have her own opinion, which I'm sure many people are going to share.**

LOL. It will get fixed next year I'm sure.

And honestly- how many adults do you really think are going to be able to take advantage of jumping between tracks but then passing regular senior moves?

(Besides which can't you already "cheat" your way to a gold medal if you take the lower tests at the adult standard? Not all the moves are judged at a lower passing standard, but some of them are)

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

If that person is an adult skater, they should be ashamed of themselves!!!