Just a note that the proposals/requests for action for the USFSA Governing Council are available for review on the USFSA Members Only website.

https://www.usfsaonline.org/GoverningCouncil
You have to log in using your USFSA number and password.

The Adult Committee requested that MITF tests be changed to use three separate passing scores: Standard (Current), Adult (21-49), and Masters (50+/Intermediate or higher). It was approved by the GC.

They amended the rule on using vocals in test and competition music, really just clarifying its use for Adult singles and pairs. The original wording only specified its use in standard-track testing, this specifically sets the Adult Silver level as the upper limit of use.

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I'm really, really happy about the new testing tracks for MIF. This means that I can realistically attempt to test Intermediate MIF (and hopefully beyond!). I'm over 50 years of age, and would be very unlikely to pass on the standard track. Now I just have to talk to my coach about whether to do Adult or Masters!

I told my coach about the MIF standard when I found out about the proposal, and his response was "too bad, you've come all this way and have 2 tests left, you're still doing the standard passing mark." We'll see about that....

I assume this takes effect in September with the rest of the MIF changes? Or is it going to be sooner? Regardless, my plan was to pass junior by September and then tackle senior.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I like it as well -- the measure offers a lot of encouragement and opportunity for adults. There's no restriction saying that an adult taking Intermediate can't blow away the standard passing score, so there's no downside.

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With the new testing ages does that mean there is no more Adult tests?
Since the current tests overlap the skills on the other tests, where does that put the crossover. (If I have to do the freaking 5-step mohawk again I'm going to cry.)

/never mind I see that there are still the other tests. Poor reading comphrension here.
So you can't take the low tests at an "adult" level. It's only one you are out of adult tests.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

An adult skater can take and pass ANY of the standard-track tests, it's just that the lower ones (Pre-Prel through Juvenile) don't have different passing scores for the different age groups. Everyone is held to the same score.

I didn't read anything about crossover points in the proposal. They're in some document on the USFSA site, but I don't remember where. Maybe someone else can post a link.

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Can someone who is at GC or who knows more about the proposal elaborate on whether passing your senior on the adult passing standard qualifies it as an "adult" gold medal, or does taking senior moves under the adult standard still, in the eyes of USFS, give you a regular gold test? I.e. with dance, if you pass your gold test on the adult standard, it's considered an adult gold dance test, not a gold dance test. Still quite an accomplishment, but not exactly the same as a gold dance test.

We already have an adult gold medal for moves/freestyle tests, and taking the higher moves tests under the adult standard still qualifies you to take the corresponding freeskate test (where there have not been any changes to the passing standard and IMO don't really need to be), so I don't think that any sort of "distinction" has been made. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (Had to run out of the meeting at ANs as this was being discussed, bff was about to compete.)

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I have mixed feelings about the MIF Adult/Masters thing. I agree with the creation of Master's standards for the Adult track tests (after all, the track was created for adults to begin with). But I'm not sure about the standard track tests - on one hand, I know most adult-onset skaters get stuck at Novice, and this would be a way for them to keep testing (and passing). OTOH, I think passing a standard track test should mean standard track. If I were to ever pass Int MIF, I would want to be able to proudly say I passed the same standard as the kids (not that I would ever be able to say that, b/c at this point, I have no plans to attempt it). My worry is that if you create an "Adult Intermediate" test, and so on, would there eventually be no separate adult track, just adult tests at each level, similar to dance tests?

And the problem then becomes the Adult FS/competition track - does that still exist, do the names change, etc? And it doesn't mention this in the RFA, but will there by Master's standards for the Adult FS tests, and what about the Int and higher FS tests, for adults.... I would be in favor of Master's standards for Adult FS, but not for standard track, for the same reasons as MIF.

Right now, there is an Adult MIF track which corresponds to the Adult FS track, which corresponds to adult comp. That makes sense to me. And if adult skaters want to test higher MIF and FS (most of those started skating as kids, anyway), they can take the standard track tests.

Another change affecting adults is that the entry deadline for AN and Sectionals would be Feb 1, for both. I think this makes sense.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I think the introduction of "Masters" for MITF means that "Masters" events be renamed. It was confusing enough when one was a freestyle (skill) and one was a dance (age) thing. But now that MITF (which dancers can take, but don't have to) applies to adults- it makes the Master's designation for the best skaters really confusing!

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I'm in my 40s so I can see that changing the passing average will affect me--some day. However, the rationale for lowering the passing average for MITF to "make allowances for skaters with depreciating skill sets," seems weird without also changing the FS passing average. From what I've observed, it's the freestyle skills that fade with age, not the MITF. Sorry to sound cynical but the proposal also notes the "positive financial impact" on clubs in "encoura[ging] more adults to test."

Good point!!

As a skater I welcome the changes - I would love to take my Silver Test but never even felt I could get it to the standard for Adult - now having an opportunity to take it as a "master" (as in over 50) I may consider going for it...

As a judge I'm afraid it will be even more difficult to judge - knowing where to draw the line of acceptable... have to just think about the numbers more I guess...

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I think the benefit of the adult passing standard for the high moves test, aside from it encouraging more testing and encouraging moving up (now that our competition stream allows that better) is consistency.

Right now judges don't really know what to do when it comes to an adult skater taking a high level moves tests and there isn't a whole lot of consistency. A 30 year old going out and doing a junior moves test is probably not going to look as strong/powerful as a 12 year old home schooled skater who took the same test just before that skater. That 30 year old may still do a technically correct, passable test, and some judges will score the test on its own merits, but others will want to see the power/speed they expect more from a kid/teen taking the same test (or the bunch of kids/teens who just took the test will make the adult skater look slower). This is why I'm a fan of the passing standard being lowered--it will probably give more consistency. One of my friends (adult skater) recently passed her senior moves. Failed the first time, passed the second, even though it was a much stronger test the first time--she thinks that this is part of the reason for that. First panel expected her to look like a kid, second panel realized that she was an adult.

Not to mention that kids tend to have MUCH more time to skate. When I was a teenager, outside of 6-8 hours of synchro a week, I also did 3 hrs of moves and dance during synchro season, and doubled that to 6 hrs when my team was not practicing as much in the summer. I was passing tests left and right. Now as an adult, I'm trying to do dance, moves and freestyle on 2 hours of ice per week that I can squeeze in with work/school. Finding the time and the consistency in both my ice time and on the 45 min lesson I get each week is tough to manage. In the fall when I was getting my junior moves ready to test, that meant I did no ice dancing whatsoever and not really a whole lot of freestyle (then I had to go and break my ankle 2 weeks before the test...doh).

And then there are moves on the higher tests that adult skaters are just going to have a harder time with (junior choctaws...super easy if you have hipturnout or are young/flexible...not so much if you're very closed-hipped). Whether you have closed/open hips has nothing to do with your skating ability and shouldn't keep someone from passing a test. Height on spirals is another one. Those issues are already addressed on the lower level adult moves tests, where some elements from the standard tests are omitted.

And the moves passing standard is no different than the dance passing standard in the fact that it is purely optional for the skater. Being a certain age does not automatically require you to take it, you can always choose to take the standard test.

I don't see the need for lower standards on the FS tests because they're based on whether or not you do the elements. A jump passes as long as it has a proper takeoff and is landed on one foot. *Maybe* something could be in the works down the road if people aren't moving up solely due to inability to pass tests (especially since adults do tend to compete more test track--i.e. a little closer to the test requirements at higher levels, at least when it comes to jumps).

But adults competing don't stop at gold, we have masters levels. The changes to the competition structure (splitting champ intermediate/novice and making the program for it shorter than junior/senior) is supposed to encourage more progression from gold to the masters levels. Not every skater who you see in intermediate, novice, junior or senior skated as a kid. Yes, most of them did, but not all. (Jason Spicer, perfect example.) And just because someone started skating as a kid doesn't mean that their skating ability (with regard to things like speed and power) won't decline over time, or that the higher level tests will come easy to them.

Throw synchro into the mix, where "masters" means the majority of the skaters on a team are 35+. I came to adult skating after being a synchro skater for many years (and since I tested dance, knew that masters adult dance tests based on age existed since it's printed on test papers). Needless to say, at my first ANs, when my friend said we were going to watch champ masters ladies, I was REALLY confused when some skaters obviously in their 20s took the ice for warm-up.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I wonder if the depreciating skill set applies more to an adults ability to LEARN to do the MITF as they age, rather than their ability to CONTINUE to do it as they age (which I agree- for youth start skaters- footwork usually stays, jumps go).

By having "adult" passing standards I think it is much more realistic that an adult start skater could pass up the chain (possibly not even getting to senior until Masters standard, even if they did intermediate as adult) then if they had to do standard track. It is a HUGE leap from Gold to standard track.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

If it's like dance, the "depreciating skills set" is meant to allow for less speed and power, and smaller patterns. We'd still be expected to skate correct patterns on correct edges. In that sense, you don't get any break for age.

I can vouch for the FACT that skills ebb as you age and especially over 50.

I used to be able to do all of the dances solo - most quite well and with confidence - up through the Gold dances.

Now I can do parts of those dances slowly, not on pattern. I can still do all of the forward dances solo. This is after several injuries and then some skills that just kind of "went" over the years. It totally grates on your confidence...

But I'm still out there!! to me...

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Interesting. For instance if, for example, a masters Bronze skater does reasonably well to earn, say, a theoretical 2.5, would a judge then "lower" her standard to a 2.3 because she thinks the particular move was just okay to pass (i.e. the judge just mentally substitutes 2.3 for the previous 2.5)? I guess in a perfect world this wouldn't happen. I know from teaching college that you can easily shift the numbers to enable someone to pass a course or whatever. At any rate, it sounds like the real impact of these changes will affect higher levels more than the lower ones.

Do judges have an actual guide for what those numbers mean?

I've always assumed if they think it's passing they put the passing number on there. If it's incredible a bit more, if it's not passing a bit less.

I'd love to know the actual standard associated with each number.

(This is why my coaches have no idea what the adult passing standards are. They know it's a bit less than the standard track- but the number means nothing to them, so they don't know how much less. So their theory is if it won't pass standard, you aren't ready.)

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

This is another problem. Maybe some of those on here who are judges could chime in, but my understanding is that there are no guidelines for judges on what adult standard means. And when they changed the focus of the "power" moves a few years ago to "continuous flow and strenth", I don't believe there were ever guidelines issued about that. I heard a coach say once that she asked a judge at a PSA seminar about judging of adult tests and the judge said they went with "whatever the rulebook says" - but does the rulebook say anything about the judging of adult tests? I've never seen anything, other than the bit about "candidates are expected to...." that is on the test sheet. I've heard of one judge saying she holds adults to the same standard as the kids, b/c there is only one standard.

There is a lot of inconsistency. I'm sure there are inconsistencies on the standard track, too - judging is subjective, after all - but it seems worse for adult tests. I think this (judge education/training) is something that the Adult Committee really needs to take on and speak up about.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

An adult standard ... interesting! I might actually attempt my Senior moves test. I wonder what the deal will be with the gold medals, too. I don't know that I much fancy passing my "Adult Senior" moves test. What do they do for the dances passed at adult standards? Hm.

RachelSk8er
Well said and agree pretty much with everything you said.

I agree with differing scores in this case. Higher moves are incredibly difficult (but yet a lot of fun) for an aging adult and anyone should feel proud to do them with some moderate flow and proficiency. As was also noted, there's nothing that says you can't score higher then the passing average so if you want the higher passing average, just keep taking the test until you attain it! Fact of the matter is that in my observation, you can do everything technically correct but if you don't have the free fluidity of motion that a kid has, it's rare that you will pass an upper moves test. You have to look like a kid. Idealism aside, that ain't going to happen for most adults. I've watched a lot of pretty good tests skated by kids still end up failing. The lower numerical standards are nothing to sneeze at and still will take a lot of hard work to attain, even more so now with the new upper moves! (Don't forget, the tests just got A LOT harder come Sept 2!)

Well, the MITF definitely aren't fun for some of us....

I am watchng this closely. If it passes it will encourage some of us to try testing within the USFS structure....and if it encourages participation, then it is a good thing all around.

It's not changing anything for lower levels though, only intermediate-senior. So even if people decide to test USFS, they still have to go through pre-prelim-juvenile or adult pre-bronze-gold the same way it has been.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Passing dances under the adult standard is considered an adult gold dance test, not a gold dance test. (Just like adult gold moves=adult gold moves test, adult gold free=adult gold free test.) That applies if you switch at any point from standard to adult--even if you (for whatever reason) have all but 1 gold dance as standard tests and pass that last 1 as an adult test.

From what I understand, you also have to declare up front what test you are doing (standard or adult), just like you do for dance. But the thing is...the tests for moves are going to be exactly the same (whereas dance does make a difference since silver+ requires partner and solo). So if you go out and do a novice test, plan to pass standard, fail but your marks would still pass under the adult standard, too bad, you still have to take it again. You can't just take the adult pass after the fact.

Jocelyn, do what I'll probably wind up doing--*hoping* I get my junior done before September, all I'll have is senior. I'll probably do it as an adult test first time out, see how that goes, and once I pass, try it again as a standard test (at that point, pressure is off, you've technically already passed it).

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

So...Let's see if I have this right. If this new system were to pass, then an adult skater could take adult MITF tests and switch to the new system (lower passing average for adults on standard tests) instead of having to cross over to the standard system (without the "adult handicap" so to speak), right?

So an adult who wanted to test up to standard junior freestyle (so they could skate Masters Junior/Senior) would now only have to pass adult MITF tests up to Gold, then switch over to the standard MITF, (but would have the "adult handicap" at these levels), correct?

If so.....Cool.

I don't know if it's clear yet.

Does an adult i/n/j/s MITF test qualify you to to take a standard track i/n/j/s freeskate test?

Or do you need to pass the standard MITF to qualify to take the standard freeskate?

Did GC qualify that?

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)