I think i have done more posts regarding my Klingbeils than anything else....

Okay here goes: I posted a brief blurb on the "beach/snow" thread about my frustrations with them, and DNBY said something brief, but more elaboration would be helpful.

Got my skates back from Klingbeil after being "tweaked" and even with the orthodics am still pronating some on rt. foot. Stuffed another small 1/2 "cookie" that is soft under the arch and it helped, but i am still not feeling quite where i should be. Klingbeil told me a long timeago if i move the blade without them moving it, my warranty on anything else to be fixed is void.

Has anyone experienced the frustration of not being as secure on the blade/boot in one foot over the other? I have very narrow heels, and my rt. foot seems to be the worst for pronating. Should i ever have gotten the Klingbeils? Should i go with another brand next time? I feel this issue is really holding me back from feeling secure with such things as the back-sit (getting secure on that outside edge), and other such things....

Any and all tips will be accepted. I wish i had a dealer of a good skate near by that i don't have to driveor fly to get something looked at. Via mail is always such a shot in the dark,but that's what i have been doing.

I have Klingbeils & I have always had issues w/ the left blade. I've moved it multiple times & have major arch support built up on that side.

Screw what they say--make the skate work for you. You've paid a LOT of money for them!!! (btw, I was never told I couldn't move the blade & this is my second pair)

My 2 cents.....blunt but there it is.

ITA, and I never was told that either. One reason I went with Klingbeil is that I live near them, so getting adjustments is relatively easy for me (when compared with SP Teri or Harlick). Even so, I did have to go back two or three times with my last pair before they were perfect. Just when I was despairing of ever being rid of the pronation problem (L foot in old boots, R foot in new ones), everything settled in and all problems are gone. I'm pretty sure it was a bad sharpening on the R that was the last problem. If you look at Harlick's web site, they say that they cannot guarantee to fix all pronation problems, and I suspect that may be true for any boot maker. Nevertheless, if you have skated without pronation before, then I think you should be able to get there again.

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DBNY might be right. After getting my insoles redone by Klingbeil recently, I found out that the prior sharpening had done a number on the edges and my right outside edge was significantly higher than the right inside edge. Combined with the different feel of the insole, the off-level blades were a major issue. The skate sharpener down here did a tremendous job in leveling the blade edges.

After the new insoles, my blades were a shade too far to the outside for me. I could tell because my outside edge on my right foot was "double tracking" meaning, the tracing showed that I wasn't on a clean outside edge. The inside edge was staying on the ice. Trying to hit the single outside edge was very difficult, more than it should have been. Also, when I skated on a flat, I could feel that my weight was more to the inside of my foot - my big toe side.

I recently moved my blade (all by myself) to the inside more and I've felt the difference. My backspins are more centered, edges are cleaner/deeper, and I can even do brackets again. It worked because my foot was now centered over the blade. I used the same slotted screw holes, just plugged and reset the round hole screws after I slid the blade over a bit.

I'm on my third pair since 1985. I always have adjustment problems - my feet are unusual, I guess. I wouldn't worry too much about the warranty and just get the blades adjusted so you can really try your skates and decide if you like them or not. And don't tell Klingbeil about the adjustment, there's no reason to bring it up. Just take good care of the skates so they don't get boot rot or anything. (I always go in person and I've never been told about adjustments voiding the warranty. I know you said he told you that, but I wouldn't take it too seriously.)

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When I had a local (and highly respected) fitter mount my blades on my Klingbeils 2 years ago, he showed me an official-looking letter from Klingbeil (signed by either Bill or Don) that was apparently sent to all they fitters (although my fitting was done in person at Klingbeil) that said if blades were not mounted exactly down the center, the warranty would be voided. With my last pair of skates (SP Teris), this fitter had mounted them to the inside (each was a bit differently placed and had to be moved a couple of times during the time I wore them). The fitter said that Klingbeil believes that they correct/compensate for pronation and similar issues in the design of the skate itself.

Since I didn't want to give up the warranty on them, I let the fitter mount them down the center. We went out to the rink (this shop is inside a rink) and he watched me skate (crossovers and edges, nothing major - lol) and said the mounting looked fine, and that if I had problems later on, he could always move them.

Then I read on this board that Klingbeil will in fact allow blades to be moved if they do it themselves. Sigh - since I don't live near NYC, going to Klingbeil for mounting issues isn't going to happen. I agree with Phoenix - they're your skates and you need them to fit, and if you've tried to work with the center mount and still have problems, then get the blade(s) moved.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I knew someone had seen that letter and the OP said she was told that directly. I was just pointing out that not everyone has been told about the warranty-voiding mountings.

I've been to the shop at least two dozen times over the years, love the bagels, coffee and dusty decor. Maybe because I've always started out bringing my blades to Klingbeil for the initial mounting, they never felt the need to mention it to me. As I said, I've always had problems with the blades being set too far to the outside and I don't notice them until I'm on the ice and the boots are broken in a bit.

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first question..what is pronation?
I have had the same pair of Klingbeils for 5 years now but only skated on them for 3 (time off) but have never had a problem with them. I had a custom fit done as my left foot is a half size wider and longer than my right and my left leg is marginally longer by perhaps half an inch but you can't tell just to look at me but really feel it in skates. I tend to feel a problem with cramping in my boots when I lace them too tightly around the foot. I lace for comfort around the foot area but lace tighter around from the ankle and up. That definitely solved my problem there although I still feel less comfortable on my right foot than the left but that is partially me and part because my right foot needs a bit extra on the sole to level me out.
As regards to the blade adjustment, I am in the UK and my blades were fitted at my skate shop and I wasn't even aware that there was any warranty!!!

miraclegro, you & I sound like long lost twins. My right foot is, and always has been, a mess. My heels are narrow, and not just at the fleshy part at the bottom, but particularly narrow as you approach the ankle. I pronate especially bad on that foot. My hips are uneven, which messes with my alignment all the way down to your foot. It's very frustrating.

I have a pair of Klingbeil that have been worked on several times (shipped each time, as I live far away from the shop). I have to say, it's NOT the Klingbeils that are causing the problem. I've had these issues with every boot I've ever used. In fact, I actually blame my last pair of Jacksons -- those high end ones that they were pushing so hard a few years back -- for contributing to a lot of my knee, hip, and back problems. They were poorly made, off balance, and slightly warped. Klingbeils have come closest to correcting, but they're not perfect.

I think I'm going to have my physical therapist and a local fitter/tech put their heads together, do a biomechanical exam on me, and see if they can come up with something new to try. It's SO frustrating!!

I'm one of the lucky ones ... I've had nothing but great experiences with Klingbeils, and I'm about to order my third identical pair.

I think Klingbeil (and all bootmakers) have to be cautious about folks in the rest of the world who fit people for skates, mount blades, and sharpen blades. There are just too many variables out there, and some people are less than qualified.

I can tell you from vast experience in my other sport - mountaineering - that no feet are the same, and there's often no quick fix or magic bullet when it comes to getting boots to fit, especially considering the amount of stress we're putting on our feet (and ankles, and knees, and hips, and ... you get the point.)

I would recommend to anyone looking for KB skates to go to the shop for a fitting ... they know how to do it right the first time, and they will check you for pronate/supinate issues while you're there.

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"Gravity is a harsh mistress." -- The Tick

ITA. It was worth it to me to fly to NYC for both the fitting and the try-on/pickup. That's the ONLY chance I'd have had for getting a halfway decent fit. My only complaint is that "Old Man Klingbeil" (as we used to call him) was predisposed to putting adults into boots that were too soft. I had to have mine majorly reinforced. He didn't seem to grasp that the force of a 130 pound adult being tossed in a throw jump will trash a dainty little boot.

I have a website I have posted elsewhere on fixing similar problems. In my own case I wasn't pronating - but I was constantly using muscles to prevent it, to the point that they hurt, because the bottom topography (especially the overall left-right slant) of the footbed didn't match that of my feet.

BTW "Pronating" refers to a left-right tilt performed at the ankle (and/or the arches, to some professionals) in which the right side of your left foot (or the left side of your right foot) comes down and the other side comes up. "Supinating" is the opposite. To some professionals (even doctors can't agree), "pronation" also involves a inwards or outwards rotation (I forget which), and a motion in which the toe points down, all motions around the ankle joint region, relative to the orientation of the lower leg. To some medical people, the words only apply when the motion creates an injury or other problems; others use "excess pronation" or "excess supination". To some, the words can apply to motions within almost any part of the lower leg, ankle and foot. I think pronation is supposed to be encouraged by high arches, long ligaments, or a foot that curves horizontally outwards (?), together with assymetric arch collapse.

Most normal walking and running begins with supination, changing mid-stride to pronation. The rock over generates much of the energy needed to drive you forwards. Skating coaches disagree on how much and whether the same should occur while skating.

Don Klingbeil says I twisted one boot by offsetting the blade position a bit, but almost all bootfitters do it at least a little.

The alternative is changing the bottom and possibly side topography of the boot, so you can push on all relevant parts of it without distorting your feet, or to squeeze the left and right middle sides of the foot together (that must be painful!) to prevent the collapse of the medial (inside, leading to pronation) and lateral (outside, leading to supination) longitudinal (along the long axis of the foot) arches.

It seems to me that if a sufficiently stiff boot fits tightly all over, and is fit to a non-pronated or supinated foot position, pronation and supination physically cannot occur - but most people would hate a boot that tight and stiff, and I think it would be hard to move with a graceful flowing motion.

American for "flat feet", basically!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Oops, I guess I used too many words again.

Actually, I wouldn't call pronation "flat feet." Flat feet is a markedly low arch. Pronation involves the inward tilt of the foot, with more pressure on the inside of the foot. That can make it look like a low arch, but it's not necessarily the same thing. You can have a low arch without pronation.

I don't have flat feet. I don't have a high arch, but the rt. foot seems to inconsistently roll in around the arch area.

I have decided i will contact the Klingbeil rep in N.C. and possibly pay a visit. I have been to Klingbeil several times, but it is SO costly and time consuming, being tht i live in Virginia and they are in NY. The original man i purchased from relocated, so it made me really feel stuck.

I think the higher level i become in skatingl, the more difficulty i have. When they are new, they are not as bad, but as they break in, they become more testy to deal with.

I am dredging up this thread to say that my experience with Klingbeil has been awful from start to finish.

I ordered boots last October that were supposed to take 3-4 weeks. Five weeks later, they came back too big, so they had to be sent back. I didn't get them till the end of December, and even though they seemed like they fit, it was too late for me to start breaking them in for my 2008 competitions.

So I put them aside till I came back from Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup and then skated in them in mid-June. After three sessions, it was blatantly apparent to me that they did not fit properly. Part of it was that the fitter marked down that I had no arch, so that they could accommodate an orthotic. Well, I have the highest arches on the planet, and the orthotic sucked, so the boot was way too big on me. There were various other things wrong with the boot, and I complained to several friends.

I never said a word to Klingbeil, because I didn't know if it was their fault or the fitter's fault. I was just going to chuck the boots and return to Harlick stock boots. But somehow word got back to Klingbeil, and they e-mailed me saying they heard I was unhappy and they'd like to offer to remake the boot for me at no charge, and they would put a rush on them. They said they pride themselves on customer service and wanted their customers to be happy.

I thought that was fantastic. My faith in them was restored!

I asked what a "rush" would be, thinking it would be max three weeks since 3-4 was the standard. No, it was still going to take 3-4 weeks, because this was their busiest time of year. Fine. Four weeks later, where are my boots? I was told they still weren't ready and that it would be another two weeks or so. I call back two weeks later. Still not ready, and, "oh by the way, did we mention we're closing for vacation for two weeks?"

WTF????

Who closes for vacation for two weeks during what is purportedly their busiest time of year?

I am told that mine will be No. 1 in line when they return on Aug. 11 and that the boots will be ready by the end of the week and shipped on Aug. 15.

I called today, Aug. 12. I am told my boots will be "at least another two weeks."

Here is where I flip my lid.

I am told that not all the employees came back from vacation yet and they are short-handed. I ask where these employees are and why didn't they come back? I am told they don't know, but sometimes they just take longer.

I'm sorry, but I don't want people who are irresponsible enough to not come back when they are supposed to come back working on my boots!

The bottom line is, I have been held hostage by Klingbeil for two months. If I had just been given the proper time frame at the beginning of this, I could have made a more informed decision as to what I was going to do. That decision would have been to go back to Harlick stock boots, based on time alone. But, no, I was told 3-4 weeks. Instead, it's turning into 3 months and I have wasted so much time. I feel like I have been swindled.

I am done wasting my time with this horrible company.

daisies - Sorry this has been such a horrible experience for you. I love my Harlicks and it sounds like you did before the Klingbeil experiment, so good luck getting stocks!

Thanks techskater. I did love my Harlicks -- my current stock boots are almost seven years old, and the stock boots before that last seven years. I just hope it won't take a long time to get the stock boots too!

Kids, the lesson here is IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!!!

Seems as if the problems have been more about getting blades than boots lately...

Wow, my experience with Klingbeil was totally different. Part of the reason may have been that I went to Klingbeil for the fitting, rather than use a local fitter. Admittedly, that is easier for me than you, daisies, since I live on the east coast and was able to take the train up, and then turn it into a fun weekend with friends in NYC/northern NJ (and stay with them). There is a good fitter in my area (he does my sharpenings) that could have done the fitting, and it probably would have been OK, but I'd had such problems with stock boots (including SP-Teri, which also closes for 2 weeks in August, btw) that I wanted to make sure these boots would fit.

I ordered them in December ('05), which I guess is their slow time - they told me 3-5 weeks and the boots came in about 2 1/2. Yes, they were a little big, but from what I've heard from others, that seems to happen all the time - I guess their thinking is that it's easier to adjust the boots to make them smaller than it is to make them bigger. I called them, and the woman said to just send them back with a note (I know others have done this and it has worked out) but I was a bit leery, and I happened to be going to Nats that year ('06) that was in 2 weeks, so I asked if I could just come by their booth at the arena one night, and she said that yes, Don would be there. He had me try them on (once I got into the arena- the security guard almost didn't let me in, until my mom pointed out that the boots didn't have blades) and he took them back with him. I got them about 2 weeks later, and they were fine. No, they're not absolutely perfect, but nothing's going to be - they're the best-fitting skates I've had, and they also helped me get rid of my lace bite (yippee!).

About 9 months later, the tongue on one of the boots started giving me problems, mostly due to twisting, which led to a semi-breakdown, which led to rubbing. They had me send the boots back and they replaced both tongues, put on those hooks (I only use it on the one that twists; it's semi-effective), gave me new laces, and sent them back to me 2 days later. I had been planning to be in my old SP-Teris for a week but only had to wear them once - good thing too, b/c after skating in the Klingbeils, I have no idea how I survived the SP-Teris for 2 1/2 years - lol.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

That's great that you had a good experience. My experience may have been different if I lived in New York and could go there in person. One thing that really raised my ire is that even though my boots were going to be late, they still said they wouldn't send them overnight or priority. They only do ground. That is B.S. They make the client suffer when it's their own unforseen circumstances that cause the delay. I emailed them and told them how unhappy I was, and the reply I got in return was excuse after excuse after excuse, laying the onus on me.

If they are so keen on customer service, they should know Customer Service 101: The customer is always right!

I have had my klingbiel customs boots for 5 years now and had no problems as such with the boot but with the benefit of hindsight, I would have the backs lower cut to allow me to extend back more. I find they are very high behind for me and so restrict my movement. My coach always had harlick and think that is my next boot as they always appeared to be lower cut behind.

DS is in custom Klingbeils. We are extremely happy with them; they were delivered on time, exactly as ordered, and fitted perfectly. They are holding up very well under a great deal of skating, a -minor- problem with slicing them with his blades on his jumps ; really appreciates the heellock and the "prongs" on the tongue to help lace them perfectly; and are moulded very well to his feet.

He has also lost the inflammation of his Achilles tendon that has plagued him for quite a while.

Granted, we have an excellent fitter in our area, with a very good track record with skaters. I've yet to find any of the number of skaters who have Klings around here be anything but happy. He takes about 45 minutes to an hour to do each individual fitting ... dozens of measurements, angles of view, taking moulds etc. Then, of course, the followup fitting when the skates arrive. And - if they're not perfect, he calls Klingbeil, sends them back, and gets new ones (quite quickly). However, having to send them back is, apparently, quite unusual. Stock and custom both are about.

Now, re: the sizing. When we ordered DS's skates, the fitter requested "room for growth" and we got it. Not a "lot" to make them feel sloppy and loose, but, enough that they are lasting thru an adolescent growth spurt. Also, b/c they are all leather, we can get them stretched a fair bit if needs be.

BTW: I love DD's Riedells, too. They fit her feet beautifully

Well, I have to say that I have never, ever heard of such an experience as yours. My Klingbeils have been mailed back to me overnight at no cost to me. I can only suspect that somehow you got off on the wrong foot with someone there, who decided to just put you at the bottom of every list they have. I have been to Klingbeils many times, and have even witnessed Don very nicely offering (and giving) a full refund to a disgruntled customer - and the customer had not asked for one! Don just realized that that particular customer was never going to be satisfied with the boots, and he preferred to end the relationship on a positive note.

Don can cut them down for you. Custom boots are made the way you like them. Why not give them a call and ask about it?

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You can get the Klingbeils cut down behind as well ... some of our dancers have this done, with the rolltop collar on it too. You can also ask for different "amounts" of cut down (does that make sense?) on the custom.