You're right: the element restrictions provide some regulation. Important to note that this is NOT done on a competition-by-competition basis. The skater has to submit a request to ISI HQ to 'step down' to a certain level. This is a one-time only opportunity; the skater can't ask for it again.

I don't remember if the skater had to retake the lower-level test. (Maybe.) From that point on, it's as if they had never taken the higher-level tests. To move up, the skater has to take the higher-level tests again and move up in their competition test levels accordingly.

The ISI really thought out how to include as many people as possible and keep the playing field level.

There are some ISI elements that are "choice of..." but the sit spin isn't one of them, IIRC.

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Interesting! I am very curious to see what this looks like. The current proposal for the footwork circle is, er, complicated.

Here is the current list of members of the Adult Committee of the USFSA.

This will change at Governing Council. I've been asked to join the committee for next year.

Rob

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Geriatric Figure Skating Crew - President for Life!
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"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

I have as well, I'm very excited to be a part of it. Glad to hear you're on it too!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Glad to hear you two will be on the committee. You'll be able to bring a great perspective.

I know it's also hard for those of us who started out at the beginning of the adult program. This will be my 15th nationals, and there have been quite a few changes over the years. It's great to see the program evolve, but also what I'm seeing is that there's a lack of tracking/planning of these changes and understanding of their impact on our original goals.

There are those of us who, although understandably also 15 years older, are wondering if there will be a place for us in the program we worked so very hard to create.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I'm so glad to hear someone else say this!!! I do understand why USFS wants to keep the "aging up kids" active in the sport.. but I do hope the powers-that-be remember those of us who started the sport as adults, were thrilled to see a place for us to actually belong and now see it starting to slip away, even though many of us are still improving our skills and working on harder elements.

I'm not sure why kids aging up into adult competition have any effect on open competition age brackets 3,4,5. Group 1 is for the most part all 'kids' now, which is pretty much what was intended and any effect on Group 2 open event skaters is going to be nominal, meaning, if a kid is in full 'retirement' before returning to age level 2 competition, the years of absence will mitigate whatever prior experience they had. Of course the Masters catagory takes care of all the real disparity. Also, while Championship Gold is not age sensitive, the open events are still there as an alternative.

Because category 1 is not the only group where the returning skaters are competing. They return to all age brackets and have more than a 'nominal" effect on the groups. Many of my friends (in the upper age categories) have stopped competing because, as I've seen in silver, there's a returning skaters back to "test the waters" before they figure out they don't belong there. And the years in "retirement" could mean any level of activity. It takes alot more than a few years to "mitigate" skating as a kid.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I do not compete, but for me, I did not skate for almost 9 years (skating maybe once every 6 months....maybe), and when I came back at the age of 27 I was functioning at a high enough level...a little stiff, but generally okay, now, almost 2 years later, I am working on finally landing my axel clean (after working on it for almost 2 years now, and before I stopped skating not having it clean), double sals, and coach just started me on fixing my loop to start double loops. I have passed my Novice moves, and am looking to test Junior in October-ish. I would not imagine competing against people who had started skating as adults...I don't think that that is fair...I have too much respect for people who have done that. I wish there were a way to separate the two groups...but I can't think of a fair or equitable way to do so...you can't even go on standard vs. adult track because many adults choose to test standard track...things to think about!

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Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

So for example, Jane Doe retires at 18 (from no higher then Juvenile), comes back twenty years later at the age of 38 and that is a threat to fair competition in Silver or Gold?

Yes, it can be.

I wish someone would tell the judges that about me. Then maybe I'd have a handful of AN medals instead of consistently placing behind people who started as adults.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

What about when the continuously-skating I's move up to II when they reach that age? And so on. Returning kid skaters can have an effect on all levels. It generally happens in Silver and Gold more than Bronze, but it happens in Bronze also. Just because someone skated as a kid doesn't mean they competed, or even tested, as a kid, so you can get skaters at all levels who are 'testing the waters' of adult comp. Heck, I competed in Pre-Bronze Spins at HC one year against a woman who had skated (in her own words) since she was 8. Now, maybe "skating" was really circling the rink at public sessions with friends and she didn't start taking lessons until she was an adult, who knows.

But there are many factors that affect adult skaters and kid skating experience is just one of them. Skating as a kid doesn't guarantee that one will beat adult-onset skaters. That's why I think it would be very hard to set up different competition tracks based on "kid" vs "adult" skating. If you want to compete, I say just work hard to get your jumps and spins to where they would be competitive at your level, or don't compete. I basically gave up competing FS b/c I realized I was never going to be a jumper (or spinner, really) and I didn't enjoy being overmatched in comp all the time. So I'm just focusing on MIF and testing right now, and if I do compete again, I'll do Interp and CM events.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Good point Debbie.
Kim - I think the key is also that you have respsect for yourself.
As with skater1964 - it can go either way. What we've been depending on is the skater's integrity to place themselves appropriately.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

This is true, flo...I may consider competing once I can hit the masters levels (Intermediate/Novice free is still within reach I believe), but until I can hit that point, I don't think it would be right...

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Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

Hmm
This last year, the standard track tests, prejuvenile and juvenile tests were explicity added as qualifiers to Silver and Gold. As I recall, this passed the adult committee with unanimous support. So by this reasoning, if one skater passed the gold test today and another skater passed the Juvenile test the same day, they are equally qualified to compete at the same level, provided they are in the same age bracket. And what I here some saying here is that if someone passed the Juvenile test 20 years ago and the poor adult onset skater passed the gold test today, then the old Juvenile skater has an unfair advantage Go figure...

For one thing there is never a "poor adult onset skater". That's just insulting.
What has been said here is that learning as a child can (for those of you needing qualifiers) give you a distinct advantage over learning the exact same skills as an adult. Physiologically and psychologically there is a difference. The skaters may be "equally qualified", but in the majority of times you can pick out the adult skater from the kid skater - at any level.
Also we well know that the kid skaters are notorious for testing well below their ability to be competitive.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

If I'm not mistaken, the Juvenile test 20 years ago, in no way relates to the Juvenile test today. Since I wasn't involved in skating 20 years ago, I can't be certain, but things change.

As to Flo and the Juvenile Pairs test that she and her partner had to take 15 years ago, because that was the FIRST pairs test at that time. It now puts her in Gold Pairs, when the Juv Pairs test back then was more like the Bronze or Silver Pairs test now.

Rob

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"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

I know there isn't for me, which is why I've stopped doing USFS Adult events. It's just not fun anymore.

I hope the new members of the committee have better luck getting things done than I did during my stint Way Back When....

Right Rob, and it was actually called the preliminary pairs test then. The name was later changed to juvenile and the elements changed. And now although the same preliminary test came back and removed again last fall, those who have taken it recently are now pre-juvenile while those of us who took the very same test before are still juvenile. So we even see from this very clear example that the test levels as written and currently applied to competition mean very little in reference to skating ability.

This is what is frustrating about the flury of quickly passed rules. There's not enough attention and thought put into how these rules will impact the adult program. There's no understanding of where we've been. We put in a great deal of work to get the adult program started, and it's sad to see it heading this way.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Yeah, I think the rules are written that if you passed Juv before a certain date (1994?) you are still Silver, but if you passed Juv after that, you are Gold. I remember around this time last year, one of our posters (Ellyn K?) posted a very informative description of how the tests evolved over the years. I think the issue was that the Juv test didn't always have an axel required, so only those that took the test with the axel have to be in Gold, b/c that matches the Gold test requirements.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I'm a "not quite ready for prime-time" player...I skate mostly for the shows, compete ISI, but have a coach that keeps pushing me to test USFS (although she doesn't seem interested in having me compete USFS).

I don't know if there will ever be a win-win for all; I'm just hoping for something more equitable for a majority of the skaters. I do think that skaters like me are becoming outnumbered by those "growing into" the adult category (do we have any actual numbers?)

I am hoping for a turnaround but right now I see the adult learn-to-skate (or whatever it's called now) dwindling and for now our numbers are dropping. I count 7 adult skaters at my rink (enrolled in classes and that includes me, the only one that competes). We have had one rink in my area close it's program and go completely over to hockey and public skating. There was hardly a ripple felt in the areas learn-to-skate programs. This carries an upward impact.

Bottom line: If there aren't enough adult skaters impacting the program from the get-go then why bother messing around with rules geared to adults learning as adults?

Just my 2 cents worth.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

My case is interesting, and I am sure I am not the only one. Pretend I haven't taken any adult tests. If we used my USFSA tests from when I was a kid, I am eligible to compete at Bronze because I only passed my preliminary freestyle. The 2nd figure test did me in - I never was able to pass the darn thing.

Now, me skating in Bronze would be a supreme case of sandbagging.

If you went by the level that I was actually skating at as a kid - skating up to Juvenile at non-qual comps - well I would have been a Silver. My first year I would have been more comfortable at Silver - to test the waters, to be honest - than gold.

However, my ISIA tests are what put me in Gold.

OK. I am married. How would anyone from US Figure Skating be able to prove that I took ISIA 6 as a kid? Heck, how would anyone at US Figure Skating be able to prove that I skated as a kid at all since my name is now different than it was when I was 14.

The honor system is very much in play.

ETA: Non-qual juvenile in 1978 was much different than now. Don't know how it was in qualifying because I never got there.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

As Deb correctly points out, the rules I cited were indeed date sensitive.

R., as I pointed out:
'they are equally qualified to compete at the same level, provided they are in the same age bracket.', this of course does not apply to pairs which have no age brackets.

I could be accused of sandbagging because I haven't tested USFS yet...but have been skating for 6 years. I have tested ISI freestyle 2 but haven't passed my level 3 yet (darn back 3's do me in every time, along with the change-foot spin). I could skate UP but don't have all the elements to compete evenly with pre-bronze ladies. Legally I can compete no-test. Is that fair? To other no-test ladies I'm skating against that don't have my range of show-skating experience or to me?

Now the ISI is instituting an OPEN category, in which they are now lumping together groups of their freestyles (don't quote me, I'm doing this by memory) like Freestyle 1-4 are grouped together into the Bronze group, etc. and you can throw in ANY element from the 4 groups (any of the jumps, spins, etc) into a 2 minute program. Can't remember if that is just for the Artistic or Freestyle programs. Seems a little more unfair for the lower level skaters than the higher, but ISI judges (who are coaches drawn from the rinks) seem to be grading on other elements besides the "wow-factor").

Is anyone else familiar with this?

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!