My friend and I took videos of ourselves today - I didn't post hers although she's about the same level as me.

I mostly filmed my pre-bronze moves in the field...I'd LOVE if someone could go and critique me, tell me what areas I need the most work with. You won't hurt my feelings - as you can see from our videos we were cracking up the whole time so we know what we look like lol. Don't mind the commentary - or the VERY poor video quality....a camera woman my friend is NOT. lol

There are also some videos of jumps and spins and assorted funny stuff. Feel free to critique any of this as well.

And if you happen to see something that I do well, feel free to mention that too - it can't all be bad right?

Okay - here's the link! http://www.philosotree.com - under "Skating Videos!" post, obviously

Whee, I live for this stuff! Ok, this is going to be very long...

3-turns: The turn is pretty good, balance is OK. Watch your free leg - for most of the turns, it is very wide and seems to be pulling you through the turns. Make sure the turn happens from the skating foot, not free leg action.

BI edges: Don't look behind you as you are coming to the line. It's pulling you off the edge. Keep your head forward and make sure you approach the line at a perpendicular angle, especially after the LBI edge - you were looking behind you so much that it started to flatten. Otherwise quite nice, good round edges.

Back crossovers: Good posture, good knee bend, good flow. Make sure you go in a straight line in between the circles, don't glide diagonally. If you curve the last crossover before the glide around more, that should help. They look a little tenative and could use a bit more speed.

Your one-foot spin was pretty good in that video named "bad spin"! Nice try at the pancake sit spin - way better than I can do.

Flip: Mostly very good with this jump - turn is ok, pick in looks good. Don't let your left arm go back before you've turned backwards. It's making you pre-rotate and lose the check, and then when you're on the LBI edge, you have to find the check again to jump. Try to think of doing the 3-turn "under" your left arm as you hold it forward. Also, try to bring your arms in more in the air. They're very wide swinging and this can throw you off balance.

Forward edges: Outsides are good. Insides: You're wide-stepping on the transition between edges. Your free foot is out in front, and then you kind of tip your body forward to land on the edge. Keep it out front during the edge, but right before you step, bring the free foot in to your skating foot and right before you're going to step, touch your boots together. Then bend your knees and push onto the next edge.

Forward crossovers: You're toe pushing, especially on the CW ones. Work on FI edges with your free foot tucked under. Make sure you show a good FO edge, followed by a good FI edge. Try to really separate your feet and push under.

Loop: Starts good, but your free leg is much too high and out to the side in the air. Needs a little more speed on the landing.

Salchow: Same thing as the 3-turns - you're pulling through the turn with your free leg. There's not a clear weight transfer, so I'd work on snapping to the right side in the air. You're landing with your free leg to the side and practically behind you and bent, when you should be landing with the free leg in front (even if your legs aren't crossed tightly, since this is a single). This is a habit seen often in adult skaters and it should be nipped in the bud! Not only does it look bad, but it will pull your hip back and to the side, forcing you off the axis. Working on weight transfer will help this. They got better as the clip went along. The one from the crossovers was the best.

Waltz Eight: You need to hold the edge before and after the 3-turn an even amount of beats. On the first turn, I counted 5 on the FO edge, and only 1 on the BI edge! The cadence should be: edge-2-3, turn-2-3, step-2-3, step-2-3, repeat on other foot. It looked like you were stepping in the correct part of the circle and they looked circular (not flattened or anything).

Waltz: Same advice applies from the salchow - you need to keep your free leg in front on the landing. Think about keeping your left side in front as you jump, and just folding your right arm into the rotation. Sometimes it helps me to think of turning out my left toe. The step into it is good and you get nice height.

Stroking: Good basics. To give it a little more polish, turn out your foot after you push and point your toe. Sometimes your free foot is pointing downwards and although you didn't toe push, it gives the appearance that you just did.

Thanks! I thoroughly enjoyed that. You have pretty solid Pre-Bronze skills with good technique. I would like to see you push a little more with speed, knee bend and attack your elements - I know you can do it! And your friend is hilarious.

I have some extra time on my hands right now so I'm going to try and help. Thanks for curing my extreme boredom!!

1. Forward stroking: you need to turn the foot you are using to push yourself out, it's totally turned in! Also, EXTEND the strokes, you bend at the knees and kick the leg right behind you once you are done pushing. Same goes for the end-pattern crossovers: don't bend the knee of the leg that is pushing under.

2. Crossovers: You are not pushing under at ALL with your leg, you only try to get speed by pushing with the crossover. A crossover gets speed by pushing OUT, then as you cross the foot over, the other one pushes under. Also, after you push out and before you crossover, you're sort of bringing your leg around and over instead of really bending the leg beneath in order to give you room to cross over. You're also not pushing far OUT enough with the leg about to crossover, meaning you are stuck and have to plop it on top of the push under leg without getting any kind of speed from it. And again, you're bending the underneath leg when it should be held straight.

3. Backward crossovers: these are worse than forward. You're leaning too far forward from your tailbone up. You're bopping up and down everytime you take a stroke. But the main problem is the same as the forward crossovers, only more accentuated: you do not push on either of these! You aren't pushing out on the top leg, or pushing under on the back leg. Every time you take a stroke you need to push. It seems you build up enough speed with the first couple of moves before the mohawk and then you just get by, whereas you should be *building* speed. Just think, for all of these, of straightening your legs, turning out the feet, and PUSHING on every stroke. Also, your forward arm should be lower, your backward arm is an okay height, but the forward arm should always be lower than the back arm.

4. Forward edges: these are pretty good. Same problem, you are more "kicking" the ice than stroking- you push on a bent leg, it should be straightened. It's OK to bend it at your ankle while holding the edge though, obviously. The main mistake on this move is that you are moving your arms correctly but you are not twisting the body to go along with it. There should be a slight rock to go towards the side your arms are going everytime you switch, that's how you get deeper edges that go faster. Also, you will definitely need this later on for three turn and other footwork. The body cannot stay square if the arms are switching, make it go slightly in the directiono of your leading arm. Don't go overboard, though. It shouldn't be anything drastic.

5. Backward edges: the first half are good! They're really not that slow at all. Again you could twist your body towards the leading arm a little more, but you are already doing it a lot more than in the forward edges. The reason you screwed up the beginning of your inside edges is because you leaned forward, stuck your butt out, and didn't try to go off an edge. You still stuck your butt out on the second attempt, but you didn't lean forward as much, so you were okay. These are slow for the same reason as the crossovers: I don't think you have yet learned how to generate power from a single rip of the blade. It might benefit you to take some lessons with an ice dancer to really understand what that is alll about. You lift your pushing foot WAY too late after going on the next edge- I don't know how they judge the adult tests, but in the regular tests you'd get failed for that. You have to push and immediately lift your foot up and hold the position. The reason you struggle in going back to the line is that you are not at ALL following your leading arm with your body, or even your head. Try to do with the inside edges the body positions you do with the outside edges, you'll find you have much more security. You cannot do these successfully if you stay square.

6. Waltz 8: this would be failed instantly. You are right in saying the waltz 8 has a rythmn...it's very specific, and you need to find someone to teach it to you. Again, an ice dancer might be a good idea if your current coach is not good at explaining this to you. You have no rythmn in this move...you do the steps correctly and even the placement of the three turn is good (it's usually people's biggest problem), however there is absolutely no pace to it, and that's one of the things judges look for. You also curve a LOT on the last inside edge before going back to your original spot, because you are not checking enough with your shoulder and you are allowing your leg to pull you around.

7. 3-turns: I've never seen anyone do the adult 3 turn pattern, so I can't help there, but for the 3 turns in general: you're not checking them, so they are very swingy. The purpose of the 3 turn pattern is to teach you to check properly, so you need to show that you can do that, and the way you performed it shows the opposite. It would help if you didn't lean forward as much and if you took longer on each edge before the turn and if you bent your knee more on every move. The backward crossover needs to push and bend more, as well.

Your scratch spin is pretty good but the reason youa re traveling and not getting much speed is your entrance: WAYYYYY too windy. Try to hold the backward edge position a lot more and step deeper and slower into the spin. You're stepping wayyyyy too close to your other foot. You should step outside the circle you made by going backwards, not within it, especially not that close. Step further out in front of you. Same for the backspin, you have no hope of hooking that spin ever with the way your stepping into it. Think about it: if you have to wind up so far back to generate a forward spin, then you need to do the same thing for the backspin. Curve your entrance a lot, then hold your stepping foot, and whip! Don't forget to hold your free leg out for a few revs before pulling in, on both spins. Make sure your arms don't pull you away from your circle, you need to check them and hold them steady. No comment for the sit spin really, you just need to develop the muscles to kneel down a lot more. The back position is really good.

For the flip, reach out and hold the picking leg out behind you longer, then bend and jump off the toepick. The reason you're not getting any height is because you are not reaching out far back or waiting long enough.

Waltz jump: You're jumping INTO your circle. You need to jump OUT of the circle. This means that when you're getting ready to jump, instead of kicking your leg to your left, try to kick it as much to your right as possible. If all goes well, you'll end up jumping completely straight ahead of you. But aim for the right, or you'll inevitably go left. If you tried an axel with the aim you're having right now, you would kill yourself.

The loop...should be pre-rotated but yours pre-rotates wayyyyy too much. You're already all the way around before even leaving the ice. I think the reason for that, other than that you can tell that you haven't developed the timing for this jump yet (it'll come!!) that you are leaning wayyy too much on your forward foot. Ideally, you should be able to do this jump with the front foot OFF the ice, lifted in front of you. What I think happens is that since a lot of weight is on the front foot...you push off the front foot to prerotate and then by the time you push off the BACK foot, you're already all the way around. You will naturally stop overdoing the pre-rotation if you keep the weight off your front foot.

The salchows, out of everything I watched, was your poorest skill. You are not really doing a salchow, you are hopping out of a one foot spin. You need to HOLD the forward edge, then do the 3 turn and immediatly CHECK so you don't start curving, and then HOLD HOLD HOLD the backward edge. You should be able to hold the backward edge forever if you wanted to. Only after having held the backward edge (a good benchmark for people learning this who don't yet have their own timing is to count to 3) can you bring your leg THROUGH (not around!!!! you are swinging a lot with the free leg), kick UP, and jump. Spinning into a salchow and doing a little hop is the most common error I see people learning single jumps making, but it's pretty easy to fix if you are dedicated to it. I spun HORRIBLY into salchows when I was little, it was so so so bad, so I really know this problem well! You need to check strongly, and you really need to hold the back leg before jumping, and then bring the leg through. Doing all this at once will fix the problem.




I just wrote the longest post of my existence here at SkatingForums, I think, but I like helping people, so I hope this will be of some assistance to you or anyone else that may have similar problems. Good luck!!!

Well I think she's really good, or maybe I'm not that good, not sure which, free leg was the thing that stood out the most for me in the basic skating, reason being that I have the same problem of keeping it straight.

Do you actually practise in ordinary trousers all the time? I would highly recommend the correct kit, ie tights and skirt or stretch trousers, it has both a physical and phsycological positive effect.

Good to see that your rink is advertising the company I work for.

Well done sunshine point, keep up the good work.

Side note to Versperholly: what do you mean she should land with her leg in front of her? Her free leg? Landing with your free leg in front of you means you did not clear your revolutions (or revolution...) in the air before landing. Your free leg should be behind you (slightly to the side) when you land, if it's in front of you (unless you're doing a combo with the loop as the second jump in which case it SHOULD be in front of you), it means you didn't get enough height to clear your jump before coming down and are probably cheating the jump, and it's incorrect. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, which is very possible.

I am only going to mention 1 thing because, well, I could not pass Pre-Bronze right now if I had to, so it would be hugely hypocritical to do otherwise. But my coach has acknowledged that my stroking is passable* and that's what I want to comment on: in addition to what others have said about toe-pushing and extension, I think you need to dig in and get more power out of each stroke. I was astonished when my coach told me I was only allowed four strokes down each long axis--but after a few weeks I developed the strength to do it. She also told me it should feel like I'm pushing with the side of my boot. Push and hoooooold, and extend that free leg.

I'm jealous of your jumping ability--jumping still scares me witless. And I have to agree with samba: one of my New Year's resolutions this year was to start wearing a skirt and tights to every lesson and it has definitely improved my skating.

*Yeah. 3.5 years of skating and I have...good basic stroking.

I'm surprised you get to do your edges across the rink - we have to do a lap of them! 4 or 6 down the length. Your back edges are a lot better than mine, but on all your edges I'd like to see you hold the extension from the initial push a bit longer.

And on the stroking, bend your knees a little more. And on the waltz 8, the first repetition you broke at the waist quite badly on your 3-turns - you'll find it easier to bring your feet back together if you harden your core as much as possible as you do the turn.

Please appreciate this is the pot totally calling the kettle black, I'm sure that mine wouldn't be as good!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Just another 3-turn tip from me...I agree with stardustskies that they look "swingy." It looks to me like you are trying to make the turn happen by swinging your free leg around. You want to try and make the turn happen from edge pressure and shoulder action. If you sit on the entry edge (making sure you are leading with your skating leg), and then "check" your shoulders, your lower body will have no choice but to turn. You will feel much more controlled on the exit edge.

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

Don't hold anything back guys, really

Just kidding - I asked for critiques and I got them. What you all have mentioned so far I've seen myself. I was surprised to see how little power it appears I'm generating because to me I feel like I'm giving it everything I have. In my group lessons our sub coach told me that on my forward crossovers I'm getting a good underpush but not a push from the top foot, which he commented was weird since the underpush is a lot harder.

I dunno - I know I need a LOT of work, which is why I decided to start testing in the first place. I was finding that my jumps and spins weren't clean, and when I thought about my basic skating I realized that this was the problem.

Big things that I notice about my skating across the board:

lack of turnout - something I was always yelled at in dance
lack of extension which was surprising...guess that boot weighs a lot more than I thought?
lack of power - I swear it feels like I'm pushing really hard
lack of control on turns - you've all mentioned about the checking and such. Again, I always feel like I'm checking but...guess it needs to be a lot stronger.

Maybe I'll pass pre-bronze by next year?

You may be pushing hard, but just not with the right technique. Try staying down lower in your knees while stroking, instead of coming up out of them too much between strokes. Also, the longer you keep your blade on the ice, the more speed you're going to get.

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

Re: lack of extension, when my coach first showed me how much I had to lift & straighten my free leg when stroking, I practically felt like I was doing a spiral! It seems in order to look like an extension it has to be a bit exaggerated.

Try this for working on power: see how far you can glide on one push from a standstill. I'm always amazed when I think I am gonna peter out and can eke out a few more inches by sinking down in the knee.

For only having learned the 3-turn pattern last week, it's pretty good. But I agree with the earlier comments about the checking. Also, your free leg kind of hangs, when it should be "toe to heel" - toe of free foot tucked in next to the heel of skating foot. I got a comment about this on the power 3's when I took (and failed) my Bronze test. Even if your coach wants you to keep your free leg extended (and on this move, there's no reason to), the free foot/leg should still be brought in next to your skating leg during the turns.

For the crossover patterns, the only thing I have to add is to watch the transitions between circles. Judges can be real sticklers for the circles "touching" like the number 8. In other words, don't do the transition on a diagonal but try to flatten it out so that your circles touch - make sense? Even though I passed Pre-Bronze MIF, I got a comment on this. I also got a comment about the circles on the back crossovers not being of equal size - I did the same 1 foot glide transition you do, and on both transitions from CCW to CW, I put my foot down and started my next circle of crossovers when I was "inside" the red line - oops. The consequence was that circle was smaller than the circles on the other end/direction.

I was really impressed with your jumps. While they need some improvement, as others have already noted, you're definitely off to a good start! I think you said you didn't want to compete, but you'd be pretty competitive in Pre-Bronze right now.

Sushine- that's one of the hardest things about watching videos of yourself: you are ALWAYS a lot worse than you think. I always think my jumps are flying in the air when I do them, and I see videos that prove otherwise. I think my posture is great, and I see myself dipping. It's horrible, but the more you watch them the better you will get. Everything people are saying is wrong with the technique right now is fixable, and in much less than a year IMHO. Don't lose hope, this is how progress is made!

Again thanks to everyone who has replied with such helpful advice.

I'm SO used to dance - things are easily fixable, particularly since you practice with a mirror in front of you. Ice is so different.

I'm not discouraged at all - in fact - even MORE encouraged to improve. I agree that everything is fixable but will take time. Right now I have SO much to work on I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed...I think I'm just going to work on extension and checking my turns as well as power in everything....hopefully as I go on other things will fall into place.

I plan to tape again next month about this time - I hope to have improved. I never posted the video I took last month, but let's just say this video was encouraging, especially pertaining to my waltz jump since I was having such a hard time with it last month and today my subbing group coach thinks I have potential to do an axel one day...long way to go of course, but it's nice to dream, eh?

At least now I'm feeling what I need to do moreso than I was last month and after seeing the video and skating today I can understand where a lot of my problems lie so...there is hope

The comments made by the skaters here are very good, but you shouldn't have too much trouble passing the pre-bronze in a couple of months.

Remember, it's considered an "encouragement" test.!!

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You seem to be leaning forwards a lot in alot of your moves. Try working on your core strength to try and help hold your upper body higher and not so much forwards. And try be a little bit more aware of it when doing the moves. If you feel like you're too far forward, then you probably are. Just try pulling yourself up and back a little from your head.

Stroking: Your stroking is OK. You need to keep your free leg straight and point your toe. Use your blade to push off and not your toe pick. Make sure you bend your knee more. You'll find that you'll get better power by bend your knees. A little hint also, i you are catching your toe-picks, it's most likely due to your posture so try and stand your back up straighter.

Forwards crossovers: You should stay at the same level the whole time. I have to do an exercise to do that, but it helps. This would probably best explained by a coach, so sorry if it's a little confusing. Going on a count of 1-2-3-4. Going clockwise, on the first 2 counts glide on your right leg with your knee bent a lot more than in your video (like your sitting on a chair), making sure your free leg is straight behind you. Don't let it go out to the side. On the 3-4 count, bring your free (left) leg over JUST infront of the boot that is on the ice, place it down and glide your right leg underneath to give you the correct push off for your next crossovr. That part is that hardest part of the exercise as you need to make sure that you don't let it "fall behind" you. Your leg should feel like it's being pulled to the side underneath you, not to the back. I hope that makes sense. And it works both ways.

Backward crossovers: Try and sit down a bit more to keep you off the front of your blade. Lean back a little bit more and don't be afraid to gain speed, as I find this really helps you become more aware of your position.

Edges: Edges can be so hard to get right. From the looks of things, try and extend your free leg out more when you bring it to the front. You might also want to try leaving your arms in the one position as I find this pulls me out of the edge.

Backward edges: Maybe try doing these to a count of 1-2-3-4 aswell because you are bring your free leg back too early in some of them. Wait till the second half of the edge to bring yur free leg back. Your free leg also looks a but "lazy" at times. Try to keep it a bit straight and don't let it come up so high after bringing it back. Again, watch your arms. I always find that my arms can be decieving. Even though you feel balanced, they can pull you out of an edge or just make it really hard to maintain.

Waltz jump: You look like your jumping aorund a bit, not through. Hold the edge alittle longer while going backwards and again once you've turned to frowards. Bring your free leg up when you jump as well as using your arms to help you jump. Your landing was good.


I hope this helps a little bit. A lot of it has probably been mentioned in previous post. And this is just what I find helps me the most, so I'm sorry now if some of it is wrong somehow.

Happy Skating

I'd love to open up the videos but when I click on the link for each video nothing happens.

I forgot to mention that you need to have quicktime installed to view the videos.

Core strength? What's that?



Kidding...thanks for the tips

To further on that tip, the best way to improve core strength is with Pilates. You may wanna sign up for an intro course and see if you like it (unless you've taken it before in which case you already know what it entails).

Also, I was thinking...about the standing up straight thing, my coach used to tell me: you are a puppet, and someone is pulling you upright with a string that pulls you from the center top of your head. That ALWAYS helps me when I'm feeling a little crooked in anything.

My old coach used to tell me that too. It really helps doesn't???

I don't mean landing with the free leg ON the ice in front of her. I mean her free leg should be slightly in front and ready to push back in a checked position. Jumps are like backspins - you should be "unwrapping" from a backspin position in the air as you land. Why would your free leg ever be *behind* you?? Do you mean checked out?

Here's a video of me doing a loop jump: http://users.adelphia.net/~jdelmar/video/loop.wmv Do you mean to tell me that this is the wrong position for my free leg??

nice forward edges. nice flip jump.
overall especially in the stroking remember to really Bend your knees and sit down, what my coach told me once that helped me a lot to avoid "bopping" is to imagine there is a ceiling just touching your head, you want to keep a constant distance between your head and the ice while doing those crossovers.



how long have you been skating with lessons???

Nope, that's correct, and it's a really nice loop jump, too!! I totally misunderstood what you said and I somehow thought you meant when the leg is still crossed over and that's sort of like double footing..when the crossed leg's toepick hits the ice Apologies for the misunderstanding, thanks for showing me what you meant. It's the only good way to get ride out, so I wouldn't want Sunshine to think I meant that was wrong!

Thanks, and LOL! I was like, are you crazy? Leg in back *as* she lands??

If you still find yourself bending over on jumps, try really hard to push your shoulders back really hard.

On stroking, if you keep a bit bent in the knees, you will have more room to extend your leg when you stroke-but you have to work harder at not bobbing. The upper body stays in one spot, the lower body does all the work and you should watch in the glass or mirrors (if your rink has them) to make sure you don't bob. If you stand up straight and stroke, you won't generate enough push without bobbing.

As a fellow pre-bronze wanna-be, I can't offer any criticism, only helpful tips!

PS-I'm also fighting the turnout problem, but I never took ballet.....

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!