Quite probably. Only, they don't have stands at our rink, nor at some of the others. And the coaches aren't always there, anyway.

I wish more judges would offer critiques; here, it doesn't seem to happen unless you can grab hold of one of the judges on his or her way between the judges seats and the FOOD! And, although I've never found them to be less than helpful if asked, most people don't ask.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

As an adult skater I generally prefer it if my coach is not there when I compete. I think I feel more nervous about letting him down than anything else.
I do think it is different for kids and having the coach there can be invaluable for the parent as well as the skaters. My kids competed twice in the last two weeks - the first time the coach was not there (though he did offer but as it was at our home rink and he lives a long way away it would have cost me a lot as they were his only skaters that day). They have competed without him before but it is very stressful for me if he is not there as I get nervous and then can't think how to help the kids. I find myself saying - 'well what would your coach expect you to do now' in the warm ups both off and on-ice.
The next time was at the novice championships and I really would have been lost without him. He took the kids around to see the Arena where the competition was held and the practice rink. He did an off -ice warm up and coached them during practice ice time. I was then able to go up to the stands and watch the competition while they did their pre-competition warm up and I knew they were in good hands before, during and after the competition. He did charge a small but very reasonable fee and I paid his petrol money. He was happy to come to the competition venue just for the day (a 3.5 -4 hour drive each way) so that I would not have to pay for a hotel for him and luckily it was a non-teaching day for him so there were no missed lessons - but he did give up his day off!
It's a very individual thing though and you have to work it out between skater and coach just what you want/need from them at competitions and what costs you are willing to pay to have them there.

well i'm not a skater but i synchro swim which has a lot of similarities to skating so just thought i'd give my 2 cents worth.

First of all, I find it really nerve wracking when my coach isn't around at a competition i need a familiar face around all the time (lol). A good coach should carry a tape with your music on it, make sure that the people have your tape as well as hold your jacket (tracksuit etc), water bottle, etc. They should be there to help you through warmup and make sure that your ok and run through a few things so that you get the feel of the ice (in my case water,---there is nothing worse then not warming up and getting in a cold pool.) when your ready to compete they should be there to cheer you on and clap really loud (lol sounds funny but its amazing how much it helps) Afterwards no matter how you skated you should always talk to your coach about your performance they might be able to give you some advice or tips for next time.

Hope that helped..if not thats ok lol it gave me something to do for a little while

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JAMIE & DAVE 4EVER AN INSIPRATION
I LUV ELIZABETH AND SEAN!
Eat.Sleep.Skate
"Imagine a sport that combines the flexibility of a gymnast, the co-ordination and agility of a diver, that endurance of a speed swimmer, the grace of a dancer, and the power of a figure skater. That is synchronized swimming!"

We just took our coach to Adult Nationals. He definitely earned his living that week! I respect the adult skater who doesn't need a coach rinkside, but I've learned that I really do!

It's good to hear that everybody has pretty much the same formula for paying coaches at competitions.

Here are some of the things that I think coaches SHOULDN'T do regarding competitions:

1. Turn on the pressure the week before. If you don't have that jump combo by Wednesday, chances are screaming about it won't make it happen at the comp on Saturday.
2. Ultimatums: "If you can't get it together soon, I'm going to ____" (fill in your own blank here.) It's just another form of pressure that doesn't work.
3. Talk about/compare other skaters to you before the event.
4. Talk about/compare/gossip about other skaters after the event.
5. Disappear at your competition, or want to leave early, or otherwise make you believe that they would rather be somewhere else.
6. Yell at you for ANYTHING in the couple of hours before you skate. For instance, if you're late because you're stuck in traffic, you're already freaked out. Walking in the door to a screaming coach only makes things worse.
7. Talk/gossip about the judges. The walls have ears!!
8. Tell you that your schedule and skate times are YOUR responsibility. I don't know any skaters who wear a wristwatch while they're competing, do you? But most coaches have them.
9. Ignore you when you tell them something. "No, really, I think I'm going to throw up...."

Each of these comes from my own observation at competitions in the last 5 years. I don't care how successful, well-known or accomplished a coach may be; if they don't treat you well, you aren't getting the full benefit of this sport.

I've only had two skating coaches, and I dearly love both of them. It's more than a work relationship. They have become good friends who I really look up to, and they both produce results. If you're not finding that in a coach, LOOK FOR ANOTHER ONE.

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"Gravity is a harsh mistress." -- The Tick

I have had coaches with me, and without for Nationals. If I'm there for the week, I like to have someone there. Last year my coach couldn't make it, so I asked a local friend's coach - and she was great. This year I was put on by a fellow skater, and I the same for her. It worked out really well. We have both been competing for a while, so knew what to expect, and also what has helped us right before events!

One of the coach's duties at a competition is to simply be who they are.

It is strongly felt in and around my club, that having a well known prestigous coach standing at the boards will get the skater a better placement. Coaching changes have been made simply on that reason.

OK, I know the world isn't perfect, but I would at least like to believe, in my naivete, that skaters are placed based on their TALENT and not their coach's resume.

We have quite a few "prestigious" coaches in my area. Most of them are great, but some of them are JERKS. I hear parents talking about how they're just resigned to dealing with the bad attitudes, pushy bullying and crying kids in order to get their child ahead by hiring a prestigious coach.

No thank you -- this is not what skating is all about.

I'm interested to find out whether there are any judges out there who've read these posts....what do they think? Does having a well-known coach automatically help with placement?

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"Gravity is a harsh mistress." -- The Tick

I've judged in the past but have given that up recently due to other priorities. I personally didn't care and actually didn't even notice really who's coaching who ...... when the skaters got on the ice for warm ups, you just watch them adn see what they're doing. There's no way a judge will put a skater who's got poor basics and weak presentation but with a 'prestigious' coach over a skater with great basics and strong skills but with just a 'local' coach. At the end of the day, it really is what's completed on the ice.

At StarSkate Nationals, one of the girls had 3 coaches (it was Paul Wirtz and the usual 2 other coaches that you see him with, even on TV in the kiss n' cry) with her from the Cricket Club in Toronto ..... at the end, she still finished out of the top 3 in the skills portion with skaters/coaches from new brunswick, bc, and western ontario placing ahead of her. The same was true with the interpretive event. She did win the freeskate portion, but that's because she completed the best freeskate program.

Roogu - I'm really curious. I just competed at my first Adult Nationals in the States. I skated a personal adult best, and my placement really didn't matter to me. But, as far as the judges went, I was all over the board. I had a 4th place, 2 8ths, 2 9ths, a 12th and a 13th. That's quite a wide range. I am a strong skater (and I skated clean, with an axel and a flying camel as my hardest elements), but this year I had no double in a event where others did. Also, in my opinion, I need work on my presentation skills.

So, what does a judge focus on? It seems to me that the 12th & 13th placements put attempted but failed doubles ahead of a clean no-double prgram, while the 8th & 9th placements gave weight to a clean program vs incomplete doubles. The 4th placement judge, of course, was the smartest one of the bunch . Seriously, there must have been something he saw in my skating and I'm tempted to write him and ask what it was so I can bottle it for next time or something.

So, what do judges look for?

I don't think that just having a well known coach automatically helps with placement. If a kid bombs, most likely, they won't be on the podium, no matter who is coaching them. Frank Carroll coached Angela Nikodinov at Nationals this year but since she bombed, she was low in the standings. I think the coach's reputation is most likely due to their ability to bring out the best in their kids. People may think the coach putting the skater on the ice is why the skater does better than they did with a lesser known coach but I think the top coaches are experts who know what the judges want and can help the skater deliver the goods.

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Babyskater's Mom

You can disagree with Arena_gal all you like, but she is just stating what is a common belief. I doubt you would get any judge or coach to admit to this except in private.

I've seen coaches who do not have a prestigious reputation ask the more prestigious coaches to come and be present and visible during a certain skater's event. I've also seen the less prestigious coaches ask to be present during a certain skater's event to be visible and gain some sort of recognition......

Whether the advantage is actual or just perceived is up for debate. Certainly the skater's actual performance is of primary importance, you can't argue with that. But beyond that, what Arena_gal is describing does happen.

In a flippant way, the "prestigous coach" issue was explained to me by a former national competitor and I'll paraphrase :

In a competition the judges have so many things to look at and so many competitors (novice sub sectionals for example) that sometimes they're busy writing something down or a skater gets bounced around because they weren't that memorable. Having a big name coach means that they'll pay attention to the performance more and be remembered by the judges.

Of course! it's up the the skater to put it on the ice.

It's not so much that a skater gets an automatic advantage from a prestigious coach, but that as an observer you come to expect better skating from certain coaches. They are prestigious for a reason, a history of producing winning programs and teaching good technique. And so when a skater of well-known coach comes up to skate, I may pay a little more attention and my expectations are high. If the skater doesn'[t live up to expectations,they will get dinged (marked down for their errors...) So the advantage of a prestigious coach is countered if skater doesn't skate well.

This is another reason why a skater needs to be "seen"...that is compete often enough and at the right events where they become familiar. Since regionals are in Nashville for EGL, the club will most certainly go to the May competition there.

In many cases I can tell at our rink who coaches which skater. They have a certain look about their elements and programs that clue you in.

Posted actually by Elsy2 on Yuffie's computer........

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I passed Junior Moves! ::happy dance::

What's a yuffie? Beats me... it sounded funny so I'm using it.

Elsy2, what you are saying is soooo not PC! It may be true but it isn't PC...

I, too, know that this does happen but as we all have subsequently stated, the skater has to be able deliver or the effect of having THE coach is negated.

I know parents who believe that the ONLY reason little Suzy isn't the top skater in the region is because their coach isn't well known and the judges don't give her the breaks. Forget about the fact that Suzy's jumps are so small you couldn't slip a piece of paper between her blade and the ice and they "land" in a whoosh of ice. Forget the fact that her stroking is poor. A truly good coach might be able to correct some of a skater's glaring problems but they can't teach talent.

When we announced that we were moving away and would be leaving our well known coach, I was actually told by another parent that my child's favorable placements (being placed ahead of her little girl) were because our coach had the bigger reputation and that they were going to drive an extra hour each direction to take the spot we were leaving. I laughed and wished them luck because that coach we left was mostly hype from having a handful of good little skaters but in actuality, very little substance. Often her assistant put my child on the ice anyway. We would have left this coach whether or not we moved. You can imagine how much I love the assumption that the coach was the only reason for my child's success.

Johnny Bevan is Ye Bin Mok's head coach and although she works with Frank Carroll, she is not Frank's primary student so, why was Frank Carroll standing by Johnny Bevan's side at Nationals when Johnny put Ye Bin Mok on the ice? Yeah, we know. But first and foremost, Ye Bin is talented and ready to rise to the occasion so it worked for her.

The big name is there to keep the talented skater from getting lost in the standings and to lend credibility to the up and coming coach. If the skater skates to their potential, they are less likely to be forgotten with Frank putting them on the ice. Of course the judges see him there.

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Babyskater's Mom

this is what my coach will do for me:

b4 im on she will come into the dressing room to make sure im dressed, warmed up and if im not warmed up she will make sure i do. then i go out a little early to stretch some more with her. she will take all my stuff jacket mitts warm up pants while i warm up on ice. she will stand near the door so after my elements she can give me feed back and what i should do next! so thats hwat my coach does!

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beks~
"winning isn't everything... wanting to is."

" the only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary"

"It’s not necessarily the amount of time you spend at pracitce that counts; it's what you put into the practice."

I do so agree. There is one coach who sometimes comes to adult events with his skater, and the way he was treating her before her event - well, my husband said that he wouldn't employ that man for one single minute, and for him to have such strong views about something like that, it must have been bad! The skater in question didn't seem to mind, though, and skated very well (as she nearly always does), despite being yelled at.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

My guess is that Carroll was Bevan's coach when he was an eligible skater, and perhaps Bevan felt more comfortable at his first Nationals as a coach putting a skater out if Carroll stood with him. Carroll was convenient anyways since Goebel was competing. I wonder if he was there at Coasts?

I know if I were a young coach, I would be nervous putting my skater out at a big event. It might reassure me a bit if my coach, who also works with said skater, was there as well, to help me learn how to effectively put a skater out at a big competition. I've helped coaches put skaters out at "small" competitions and been nervous (but in a really good way)!

Jocelyn

That's quite a wide range or ordinals, but not at all uncommon when it comes to events like Adult Nationals, or StarSkate Nationals or even provincial/state finals ... especially when it's a 5 judge or more panel. It's usually a bit more concise in freeskate because you've got elements to compare, but still not uncommon to see wide ranges. Just to give you an example, at the recent National STARSkate Championships in Canada, during the Creative Skill Portion in the Silver Ladies event, one skater placed 6th in that portion received ordinals of 1, 3, 4, 12, 13. Another skater who placed 9th in that portion received 2, 7, 7, 10, 12 ... it keeps going, the girl in 10th had 5, 7, 8, 14, 14. The girl who had, in my opinion, the best skill in the entire event, had ordinals of 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 ..... as you can see, her ordinals were more in check ..... but she ended up in 7th place in that portion. I've been skating for 14 years, and I thought she should have won .... obviously, there must have been qualities baout her skating that I thought was better than the other skaters. Which brings me to this point .....

The reason for such a huge range is because different judges value different things. Some may give more credit for more difficulty over flow/poise/speed ...... some may give more credit for strong basics over planned difficulty. Some judges prefer soft lyrical programs while others prefer strong dynamic programs. It's really up to each judge. But there are some commonalities in what most judges look for.


Generally speaking, judges will usually group the skaters they see in an A, B, or C group which makes it easier to assign marks.

The things that differentiate skaters between these groups would be things like speed, flow, carriage ..... the very basics of skating. The stronger your basics, the better your skating. And even if you have a bad day in terms of the jumps, the judges will generally still reward your basics because they can see the quality in those basics ... even something as simple as crosscuts setting up a jump. Like Michelle Kwan for example, when she sets up a jump by doing crosscuts at the ends ... you can see that her upper body hardly, if at all, moves. Her legs are doing all the work, and her back is perfectly straight and her carriage is up facing the arena and not down towards the ice. Now compare that to someone like Sokolova, when she sets up a jump, her upper body moves a lot. Her arms tend to move about as well.

I myself like to see skaters with strong edges as well ... which would also be included in the basics. Strong edges doesn't always mean deep carving edges .... on top of depth/curve, it also includes control and the ability to master forward AND backward edges. This also includes the execution of basic skating turns like 3 turns or brackets or even counters and rockers.

Of course, as important as basics would be presentation. Again, diff. judges prefer diff. things, but I like to think there is one true constant when presentation is judged. That is, be real and honest. What does that mean? It means, whatever style or music you skate to ... whether it's somethign simple and straight forward like a classical theme, or if you're portraying a chracter like a Dracula program .... open up yourself and let it come from within. How do you do this? The answer has 3 words - "Be The Program". An angst ridden expression doesn't always interpret dramatic music ... you see it in dance all the time .. yeah they skate to dramatic programs and you see them scrunch up their faces .... but you can see the difference between those who do it because it's part of the choreography and those who do it because they ARE the program.

As for evaluating jumps .... I would always reward jumps completed correctly with quality and technically sound take offs over a more difficult jump, but done less than mediocre. For example, take two top skaters skating in an event. One does a program with a double flip as the hardest jump, but it was done with nice height, a perfect take off and a strong outside edge landing. The other skater does a double lutz .. but it was a flutz take off and the landing was jerky and had to fight for it .... I'll give the win to the skater with the flip. Depending on how strong her skating is, I might even give it to someone who has only up to a loop. It's nice to have difficult elements in a program, but it's more difficult to have nice elements. Or if a skater has an axel as her highest jump, but she as a great take off (no skid) with an awesome kick through that gives her a nice climb ... I'd give it to her over a skater who does a small double salchow with a small and tight landing. A good way to measure a jump is the landing edge tracing ... the landing tracing should be as big as the take off. That's the sign of a mastered jump.

In terms of the elements you completed and the ordinals ... and what you told me the others did, it's obvious that the judge who placed you 4th thought you had strong basics ... after all, you said many of the other ladies had doubles while you only had an axel, and that judge still had you in 4th. The judges who put you in 8/9th .. probably weighed out your basics with the difficulty of the event as a whole ... strong basics but a lower difficulty generally cross each other out, which would explain the middle of the pack placing. The final judge who placed you 12th, would appear to me value difficulty in jumps over basics. Ideally, it should be a nice balance of both. See what i mean when different judges see different things? heheh

Unless a skater has a jump that nobody else in the event has .... jumps really don't matter all that much. I know that sounds stupid, but it really is sort of true. Take the championship men event at Adult Natoinals for example ... Larry Holiday completed 2 triple salchows .... no one else had that jump. Now of course in this situation, jumps would matter as this would give an added advantage. But if all the skaters are completing/attempting elements that are roughly in the same difficulty range (say in an event where everybody has an axel and a double or two planned) ... you're all on an even scale and the best thing to make you stand out and get bonus points, would be STRONG BASICS It may not be your saving grace each and every time, but 9 times out of 10, the jduges will see it and it's gonna hold you up.

This has been a LONNNG Post! And I hope it's helped explained some things. If not, feel free to PVT me and I'll be more than happy to explain some more.

Just one more thing regarding speaking to judges:

Don't hesitate to ask judges for input ... but only do so AFTER your event has completed. Of course, I don't mean at the end of the day when all the events have been completed. I just mean after YOUR event has completed. Judges aren't allowed to discuss results or skaters during the event in question. Also make sure the judge has a good break in between their assignments when you speak to them. Most judges are assigned 4 or 5 events at a time before they get a break so obviously, they can't speak to you if your event is over, but they still have 2 or 3 more to do, hehe. 9 times out of 10, a judge wouldn't mind taking the 5 or 10 minutes to sit down and tell you what you can work on to be even better. And what's the worse that can happen if you ask, they say no? hehe, oh well, it's better than not asking and not getting any input anywya, right?

I've enjoyed reading the posts about this topic. I am competing in four days at my first competition, and curious to see how everything goes. It will be interesting b/c my coach has me and another skater skating compulsaries at the same time. From past competitions I have observed that my coach does have to spend more time with the kids since they need their hand held every step of the way, but she does not ignore the adults making sure they arrive at the rink and then shows up at the side of the boards before their warm up and event.

Well, best of good luck, Sk8clean, and mind you let us know how you get on! Yes, your coach will be with you if she possibly can, but the children do have to take priority. I know once my coach disappeared because one of his pupils, competing in another class in the same competition, had been taken ill, and my poor coach spent most of his time holding the boy's head in the gents! His wife, a coach in her own right, was most apologetic, but I quite realised that C's need had been greater than mine.

My first competition of the 2003 season in less than a week - I do wish I could bring myself to care about it!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!