Originally posted by Cinderella
Mikawendy or Evie - could you elaborate on this? This is EXACTLY what I need to be able to do -- turn out from the hip. Since I am 47 years old, I am understandably cautious about doing things that might be hurting my knees instead. I want to learn bauers and spread eagles. What do you recommend to develop turnout from the hip?

Cinderella--
Here's what I'd suggest based on my experience with ballet. I can't yet do a decent (uncurvy) bauer or a spread eagle.

My ballet teacher gave a great exercise for turnout in second position. Stand facing a barre, a sturdy chair, or the wall so that you can hang on for balance. Stand in second position, with YOUR current turnout (so that your knees are over your ankles and aren't wrenching to get extra, false turnout). Your weight should be evenly distributed over your foot (the foot shouldn't be rolling over to the instep or to the outer border of your foot). Concentrate on having a neutral pelvis (not tucked, not with swayback) and engaging your stomach muscles. For two counts, do a deep demi plie. For two counts come up halfway. For two counts go back down to that deep demi plie. For two counts come all the way up. Repeat 2-4 times. Some people like to inhale on the going down parts and exhale on the coming up parts.

To make the exercise more challenging, you can stand in a wider second position, you can go deeper into the plie (but never so that your knee has less than a 90 degree angle), and you can slow down the counts.

I also have seen physical therapists give a side-lying exercise for turnout called "clams". It uses a theraband tied in a large loop. You lie on one side with the knees bent and the ankles in line with your back and butt. THe theraband loop goes around your thighs near the knees and the upper leg opens and closes at the knee (it's sort of the reverse of the "Thighmaster" exercise only lying down), with the ankles/feet not lifting off of the floor. I usually do two sets of 15. I don't have a theraband that's long enough and the right "stretchiness," so I use a velcro ankle weight around my thigh instead--but that's a little cumbersome.

After any intense turnout exercises, I like to stretch my piriformis muscles (external hip rotators) because otherwise I tend to get too tight there. I lie on my back, draw one knee up toward my chest so that my thigh is making a 90 degree angle with my body. I place my other ankle on my thigh just above my knee, grip behind the thigh of the first leg, and pull gently and slowly toward my body and hold for 15-30 seconds. You'll feel a stretch in the butt area of the leg whose ankle is resting on the thigh. (The piriformis attaches in two places, so it has two "bundles" of muscle fibers--you can feel a different stretch by also drawing the knee of the stretching leg across the body toward the opposite shoulder a little bit.)

If any of this sounds confusing, let me know, and I'll try to explain it better.

Hello all!

Good response mikawendy!

If you don't mind, I'll just add my own thoughts down here, too...

First, think of turnout as an action and not a position. Your turnout is the ability you have to maintain external (outside) rotation of the femur (thigh bone), which is nestled in the hip socket.

How much turnout you have is impacted by two things: strength and flexibility. You have to have both in order to maintain a turned out position. Turnout is mainly controlled by your butt muscles (there are specific name, but I'm simplifying this for time's sake) and the rotator muscles of your hip socket, although your inner thighs help to push your legs so that they rotate outwards too. These are the muscles that must be strengthened and stretched. On a very fundamental level, your maximum degree of turnotu is determined by the shape of your hip socket. The deeper your hip sockets, the less you will be able to turnout.

However, posture has a great effect on turnout. Many people have the tendency to stand "swaybacked," with the pelvis tilted forward and the spine out of ideal alignment (ideally, your whole body makes a straight line.) Standing like this makes it virtually impossible to use your turnout muscles. So, make sure you're practicing good posture. Good posture will help you with everything in skating.

After that little introduction, lets talk about turnout out from the hip...

Professional ballet dancers have about 180 degrees of turnout (thats a flat line). Most people don't have this much turnout, but the only way to develop your maximum turnout is to use it correctly. Turning out from the hip means that you do not use flexibility you may have in your ankles or knees to make your feet appear turned out. You only use the rotation you have in your hips. If you are "torquing" your turnout, your knees will not line up with your feet, or you will notice that you are "rolling forward" on your feet.

A passive way to determine your current degree of turnout, flexibility-wise: Lie on your back, with your legs bent and your feet on the floor. Slowly open your legs until you're in a "butterly" position. Not only is this a good, mild stretch (just use gravity), but it gives you a good idea of what its like to turnout from the hip. NOTE: you may not have the strength to maintain this turnout... yet.

Next, find something to hold on to! Stand on one foot, parallel or a little bit turned out depending on preference, and lift your outside leg up in front of you (knee pointing towards the front wall) so that it makes a right angle with your body. Now, without moving your hips, push your leg to the side so that your knee is facing the side wall. If you repeat this several times (even repetitions on both sides), you will increase the strength in your turnout muscles. Make sure you're maintaining good posture!

These are just a couple mild ones. Here's a good link:

http://www.dancespirit.com/backissue...ersbody2.shtml

Good luck! PM me if you have more questions... I have a lot of information about turnout in my head, as all ballet dancers are obsessed with it...

I also found this good link:
http://www.dancespirit.com/backissue...essForum.shtml

My coach gave me a good exercise to work on strength along with turn out. Assume second position, holding onto the barre or a chair with your left hand. Do a plie, then raise your right leg off the ground with the knee bent. Keep your knee and foot pointed to the right, your hips level, and don't try to pull your knee above your hip - the leg should be moving "independently" from the hip/body. You should feel the squeeze in your outer butt muscle. Alternate the raise with a plie, and go slowly. If you can, do this in front of a mirror and watch your body alignment. I do 15 "plie, raise" and then switch to the other side and do 15.

Wow, guys, thanks so much! I'm printing all of this off and will try these tomorrow and see if I have any questions. I really need to get started working on this, because I know it doesn't happen overnight. I'm going to try to incorporate these exercises in my daily program. But there's a question -- do you think they should be done daily? Or every other day? Is it like weightlifting where you give the muscles time to recover?

Sorry, so many questions!

Yowza! Did you see the picture of the girl in the red leotard doing the adductor stretch? I had to look at her three times to figure out just which direction things were going.

Again, this will all be very helpful. I'll PM you if I get stuck and need to send out an SOS!

Cinderella

No need to apologize! We're all here to ask and answer questions

Anything involving weights/strength training, I tend to leave at least a day off between workouts on it. So, if I use arm weights one day, I might use ankle weights to work on leg and turnout exercises another day. I DO tend to do the stretches every day, after I've done some mild exercise or after a workout or skating session. Otherwise, I tend to get stiff easily, especially in the quads, calf muscles, and piriformis. (I also stretch during the day, usually after walking from the parking garage to work--otherwise I get stiff while sitting at my desk all day.)

Some of the milder exercises I sometimes incorporate into my pre-skating warmup or my cooldown. For example, I've been working on doing shallow knee bends on one foot to learn to carry my weight on one foot (e.g., for loop, backspin position) and to develop quad strength. I sometimes do these in a turned out position (to work on turnout) or in a turned in position with the free leg crossed behind to simulate the last part of forward crossovers.