UGH!! They HATE me!!

I'm really really REALLY struggling with them. I searched them...but nothing came up so I thought I'd start a new thread. =]

So coach's back after her knee operation, and we're both getting incredibly frustrated with both them, and my lack of them. I can't bring myself to turn properly, I forget to swing my arms around fully, I try to make my feet do all the work, I can't hold the edge coming out of them - they're an absolute nightmare. Is there anything I can do? And one got any tips? Off ice exercises? Or is it just a case of practice practice practice, and admit they'll never be my strong point?

*I struggled with outside ones as well. I've got those pretty much now. Eventually =P

Are you tucking your free leg around the back of your skating leg?

This can help to keep your hips in the right position so you turn more easily.

Probably not lol. Thanks =].

No problem!

I know how you feel, i have just about got the inside 3 turns now, i found them a lot harder than outside 3's.

Also, you mention that you cant hold the edge coming out of them, maybe you need to do a stronger push at the beginning so that you have more power?

This helped me: Try keeping the free leg in, closer to the heel of the foot you turn on, so you can't swing it around. Try to stay over the hip you're turning on, try not to drop or raise the other hip.
And I practiced them on socks on a slippery floor to get the feeling of the turn.

If you're loosing the edge after the rotation by spinning too far on the outside edge coming out of the 3-turn (almost as if you would flip to face-forwards again) then you have to learn to check the 3-turn better, really focus on the shoulders STOPPING the rotation, it's almost like you push against the rotation with your shoulders and your chest after you've rotated to a back outside edge. It's got to really come from the shoulders and the chest, because the arms alone won't stop you. Don't focus on trying to turn your arms, focus on your shoulders: your arms should be nothing more than the extension of your shoulders. There should be a kind of tension on the arms, they shouldn't move separate of your shoulders, as opposite to what my coach described as "spaghetti arms" where the arms kind of wave around all by themselves.

Another way, which worked for me, 3 turns represented the most difficult element for me to master.

Whichever curve I am on, I face slightly towards the circle and position my arms on the line of the circle. Thus, if doing a left outside 3 turn, I face slightly toward the left, right arm forward and left arm back. As I enter the actual turn, my right foot tucks in behind as already detailed, and my body turns as a whole, from the shoulders down to the hips. The arms essentially remain as they were, and the feeling is of holding ropes or poles and pulling oneself around ...

The same applies to INSIDE 3 turns, but since a left inside turn goes to the right, the left arm is in front.

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Aw, come on, inside 3s only gave me a huge goose egg on my forehead (I went straight down on my head!) several years back!!

I was struggling with these while prepping for them on the USFS adult pre-bronze test. Coach said I was going at them too straight (in my efforts to keep on the lobe & axis). Have you tried riding a long fwd inside edge before the turn? That helped me a great deal--I was really trying to force the turn.

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They weren't part of Learn-to-Skate when I was learning, which I think is Just as Well, as mine still aren't great. I can do them, but on the right foot, particularly, I can't hold the edge and then turn - I have to turn as soon as I push. My LFI3 is massively better, though, but probably still dire.

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Mrs Redboots
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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

3-turns caused all sorts of headaches for me - months of trying to do consistent outside 3-turns, and then the same pain and frustration trying to do the inside 3-turns.

Things that I had to watch out for were:

• Making sure my bum wasn't sticking out (so a nice upright posture)
• Making sure my weight wasn't towards the back of my blade - I try and keep it nearer the ball of my foot, which makes it easier to do the turn.
• As others have said, keeping the free foot tucked neatly in behind the skating foot - this really can affect your turn if it's waving around somewhere.

Don't worry - you will get it eventually Once I knew what I was meant to be doing, it was repetition, repetition until I finally got it.

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

I'm having trouble with 3 turns too, forward outside in my case. I've had trouble for close to 10 years.

I'll tell you what my coach said, with explanatory detail added by me. (If you don't learn analytically, and think in terms of intuitive physics, like the "torque" forces that create rotation, this whole discussion will make no sense to you - read no further.)

Flailing your arms turns you quite efficiently, but figure skating judges consider it gauche to use them too much. More subtle motions show better control, by their crazy standards. So use your shoulders instead. (ISI and USFSA say it's OK to use your arms too at first, but you must graduate to other ways. May as well do it right in the first place.)

The shoulders have insufficient mass to create enough torque to do anything significant. What you are really doing is using the shoulders and the muscles that control them (extending horizontally, and extending diagonally down to the opposite hip and leg) to twist your whole upper body (above the waist) around. To do this pull your the left shoulder back and inwards towards your spine, twisting your whole upper body around with it, during right forward outside 3 turns or during left forward inside 3 turns. (When your left shoulder goes back and inwards, your right shoulder naturally comes forward and inwards.)

BTW, moving a shoulder (and the rest of the upper body) back and inwards is called creating an "open" shoulder position. (A perfect pose for shoulder dislocation, but you aren't supposed to land on the ice that way. Don't use it whilst paddling a boat.)

Likewise, pull your right shoulder and upper body back and inwards during left forward outside 3 turns or during right forward inside 3 turns.

Twisting your upper body creates enough torque in the opposite direction on the lower body to start the 3 turn. When the turn completes, the upper body runs out of its twisting range of motion, and its stop generates the torque to stop the turn.

To demonstrate that you aren't flailing your arms, it is considered nice to keep your arms as close as possible to being along the circular arc you are skating on; they only shift about as much as the shoulder position shift forces them too. The aesthetic ideal is to have the arms at shoulder height, with the hands facing down.

That is one way to create a 3-turn.

Another way is to start in a bent knee position, press down with the front of your foot (shifting your weight and point of skate contact) to your toes. Your toe pick may or may not barely touch the ice. Either way, the friction on the front of the skate makes you turn. Midway through the turn you re-bend your knee, lifting your toe and shifting your weight and contact back, which has the opposite effect, stopping the turn. (Needless to say this is hard on your knees, and is one of the major reasons figure skaters wear them out. But it is expected, so what else can you do?)

To make the turn more subtle (considered better by figure skating judges), you do a little of both methods.

For back 3's everything is reversed regarding which shoulder does what. And you push down the heels at the start instead of your toes, and pick them up on the way down again.

I have trouble with all these things.

In addition, my body wants to turn by bowing at the waist (also considered gauche by figure skating judges) and leaning into the turn too much, to create the turn yet an easier way (considered improper). That means I lean too much into the same circular arc after the turn, and do a less complete edge change, which means my second edge is not along the same circle (gauche again), but lies on a smaller radius circle. I must stop that to meet figure skating standards, so don't you get into my bad habit.

(If all this cow poop about gauche and improper seems silly and inefficient, and therefore ungraceful, as well as bad for your long term health, tuff tiddies. You can get the figure skating world to convert to more efficient and safer techniques by changing the mind of everyone in all the skating organizations, which may take somewhat more time than learning to move their way.)

I guess freestyle skaters are allowed much more leeway on all these criteria than ice dance skaters. After all, freestyle skaters are doing much harder moves, and generally have less time to do them, so it's OK for them to do the easy ones with less finesse.

No doubt someone will correct something I just said.

In fact, let me edit my message to correct something myself. Yes, the shoulders have only a little mass, and they don't move very far, so of themselves affect the motion little. But when you stick your arms out from your shoulders, you are adding a fair bit of extra mass, at a big distance from you center of mass, thereby increasing your "moment of inertia" - i.e., increase the force available to turn the lower body. So the little shift of the shoulder back and inwards helps too - the arms-out position isn't just to demonstrate you aren't flailing, but helps a good deal to initiate and later stop the turn.

No wonder you've been having trouble for 10 years . Stop analyzing and start paying attention to your coach and your body! The "Ice Princess" method of figure skating does not work. You shall not skate by analysis alone.

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Otherwise, DH would be doing triples by now.

Story behind the comment: DH studied physics in college. Has a BS but a thesis shy of his MS in Physics. Anyway, one day he overheard my coach correct me and then he goes in physicist mode and says "Yeah, maybe you need to do this and maybe you'll get more torque?" (or something like that) Primary goes and says "Yeah, listen to him!" To which I replied in a snide tone to DH "You know so much about how to do my <skill that I had trouble with>... why don't YOU go on the ice and test out your analysis!!!" Shut him up REAL quick!!!

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Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

If all else fails, try your hand at the sideboards. Since you know roughly what is required for an inside three turn, then just skate up fairly slowly along-side the board, and then try an inside three turn so that you turn in toward the side board. The thing to overcome is fear, and also need to remember to keep your torso upright....eg shoulder-to-shoulder, and hip-to-hip parallel to the ground. Maybe you can try bending your knee a fair bit, keeping weight over your skating knee.

If you're really scared of it, then you can just stand next to the board....holding onto the board a little bit, and then push off to skate a tiny bit along the sideboard, and then try a inside-three. So even if you have to hold onto the board while doing it.....just do it....and keep trying it. The point is to get your body and leg to get used to an inside-turn, even roughly. Eventually, after a short time or even a long time (like after a hundred times or 1000 times), you'll get good enough to do the exercise without the sideboard. And after that, you can hone your posture/skills from there. The thing here is......if you try enough times.....you're bound to get it, because it's just a matter of the body understanding what it should feel like. Inside 3 turns are nothing much really! Use some protective gear if you feel any need to. You'll get it eventually.

Good gravy, that was a lot! I've quoted the parts that are super relevant. Shoulder positioning is extremely important in 3-turns. Your shoulders are like the rudder that guides a ship. Turn them a certain way, and your body will follow.

Inside 3s in particular are practically pre-rotated. Your body should start turning before your foot.

Do not give up on these! Time and practice will make them a very strong element for you.

Gotta disagree here - for those of living firmly in our heads, we have no idea have what our bodies are doing and really need the analytical detail. For the geek squad, analytical and technical understanding comes before physical understanding. Yes, sometimes ten years before!

(maybe I should change my user name to doublegeek? geekskate? double3sgeek?)

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

Make sure your free hip is yanked up high. Higher. Practice skating an inside edge with free foot tucked nicely and the skating ankle and the free hip yanked up high. Make the turn, and concentrating on keeping free hip high. Ride the BO exit edge with free hip pulled high. Higher!

(if the free hip is below the skating hip, it will pull you off balance and inside the circle)

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The Great Skate Experiment

I think 3 turns are just hard. If you struggled with outside, but have them now, I bet after practice practice, you don't have to admit they'll never be your strong point, you'll eventually be able to say you pretty much have them!

I don't have useful advice, but I can share my story. I also had a hard time learning inside, after also struggling with outsides. NOW I can do the inside 3 turn that goes CW, better than the outside 3 turn that goes CCW. So once I figured out the turn, my rotational direction took control, and it wasn't a matter of inside being worse than outside- it became CW was better than CCW- regardless of inside or outside!

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Back edge rolls, lots of them. If you have good control of the exit edge and the position feels natural, you will move into it more easily coming out from the turn.

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As a kid (roller), I needed every little technical detail; however, that did not extend to discussions of torque and mass, but rather consisted of (as you said) where each body part was and how it moves relative to the other body parts - proprioception. I probably need less of that now because of my earlier training. A good coach can give you what you need without knowing physics and you can learn it without knowing physics. The fact that pulling your arms in on a spin increases speed is something that I demo to my beginner students all the time, with nary a mention of physics.

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I completely agree.

I actually did doubt at one point with my inside 3's that I would ever get them. It took weeks of doing them until the odd one started to appear, and then within the space of about three weeks, they were actually quite consistent. It really is just about practice and patience - along with a lot of skating elements I feel!

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

Two things really helped my inside 3s:

1) prerotate! Turn your upper body, especially your shoulders, as far into the circle as possible. Then, it feels natural to make the turn. I still have problems remembering to do this on left inside 3s.

2) Tuck your free foot behind your skating foot. Point the toe and think of the toe of the free foot as leading/pulling you around the turn.

Good luck! I think inside 3s are one of the hardest things to learn in skating.

I'll second that. I didn't get any of these edges or turns until I finally figured out the technical/conceptual "rules" for myself. Here are the three that come to mind that helped me get all my forward 3-turns, including inside ones:

1. Position of edge in relation to a line on the ice: For all forward CCW 3-turns (either LFO or RFI), if you do the 3-turn following a line on the ice, you need to push out a little to the RIGHT of the line (1:00, if the line is 12:00) and do the turn to the right of the line, then come back to the line on the exit. For CW 3-turns (LFI or RFO), push off a little to the left of the line (11:00).

2. Position of chest in relation to the circle you are creating: For all forward 3-turns (either inside or outside), your chest has to always face inside the circle you are creating with your edge, both on the entry and exit of the turn. This means you must start with your right arm in front and left arm in back if you are doing a CCW turn (LFO or RFI) and start with your left arm in front and your right arm in back if you are doing a CW turn (LFI or RFO). The arm that faces the direction of travel will continue to face the direction of travel even after you exit the turn because you will only turn your body from the hips down. Of course the right arm that starts in front of you will end up behind you after the turn, but only because the rest of you turned backwards. The arm stayed right where it started. Keeping your chest and shoulders in the same place while doing the turn from the hips down will keep you from over-rotating and losing control of the turn.

3. Ankle bend and position on blade before turning - This is true of either inside or outside three turns. Make sure you bend your ankle and press the ball of the blade into the ice before executing the turn. This will make the turn easier and ensure that you don't catch your edge (which is the only scary thing about any turn).

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one thing I have to add is, don't just 'admit' they're a weak point... 3 turns are soo important!! you need a good inside 3 for toeloops, loops, backspins... so just keep practicing until you get them really good! believe me, once you get them, they're going to be effortless.

when i learned them, I used the little half-circle at the end of the rink (you know, for hockey). they have 2 lines at the 1/3 points, and you glide along the line, turn at the little line, and glide back along the line.

the wall is also really helpful. just don't transfer all your weight onto it.

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Wow lots of replies =] I'll read through them properly once I have more than 40 seconds to myself lol. I think basically I need to concentrate on turning my upper body before I rotate my foot, and keeping my free foot tucked behind. Thanks everyone!!

Yes, but some of use like, even need the physics description, complete with mass, torque, and centripital force. It's actually a big part of why I love skating.

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment