Sonic, I agree that some children do not have sufficient motor skills and are not able to have the kind of awareness of their surroundings for freestyle sessions. But there are some adults/teens who also lack awareness, either on purpose or due to some other reason (medical condition, medication, etc).

I know I have a problem being sufficiently aware of others if it's too crowded and would rather not be bothered having to pay attention to 20 others and myself. I do self-police myself though. When I feel it's too crowded for me, I get off the ice.

Maybe a minimum age/level AND a coach PLUS skating director recommendation would be best. Just getting a coach recommendation wouldn't work at my rink, as some of our kids are "coached" by their mothers.

We do have a few "ice diva's" that will skate as if they own the place and will skate into you no matter what; or not yield to you no matter what. They are just as much, if not more, dangerous.

But I know that even though I may be completely in the right, I would do all I could to bail out if I saw a toddler in my way. It's just me and the way I am. I know I am 5 times bigger and the child would get hurt terribly. I couldn't live with the guilt that I could have bailed, even though I had the right of way.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

The kids can be annoying, because they are often pretty clueless, but it's my job as the much bigger person to bail first. And I do. I have no desire to get into a collision.

So I do bail on things in crowded sessions fairly often, but that's just something I deal with.

It's nerve-racking as a new skater on a public session with tons of skaters zooming around. You don't have the skills to bail out. Then, as your skills build, you eventually do have the skills to bail out most of the time. There will be the occasional time when there is absolutely no way you can. But, that's why the better skater should try (especially on public ice). Most of the kids are clueless about the rules anyhow (on public ice and sometimes on freestyle). Sometimes they just forget.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I feel the exact same way about this. Although I understand and have felt the frustration of not getting the right of way when I am in a program run-through or in a lesson, in the end, if another skater (regardless of age) gets in my way and cannot move quickly enough to get out of my way, I accomplish nothing by plowing into them and quite possibly hurting them and mostly likely myself in the process. The way I see it, I practice elements and run-through programs quite a bit. Having to bail out of one spin or jump in or out of a program run-through is not the end of the world.

I think the point has been missed here.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with being the 'bigger person'.

Of course you would 'bail out' if your skating along and there's someone in the way (be it a toddler or an advanced skater), same way you would if you're driving and someone steps out in front of you - you slam on the brakes.

The whole point is not whether you would WANT to 'bail out', its whether you would be ABLE to 'bail out' or even see the toddler in the first place, because they would sure as heck not have the ability to get out of your way.

S xxx

The better skater is supposed to WATCH for lower level skater at all times. Its not an age or size issue.
On fs ice, my 7 year old watches out for the skaters that are double her size but not at her level.
Unless you can afford to buy your own ice, we all have to do the best we can with what the rink offers. We all dont have a ton of rinks and options.
Life isnt perfect and skating isnt either.

Well, that puts a different spin on it. But if it's assumed that we will bail out every time because we are bigger, then that one time will be the one in which the little kid will get creamed because they happened to be in our "blind spot." Who gets the blame then?

I don't want to have to bail out of elements when I'm running through my program...I don't think anyone does. I hope that I'm able to bail out if someone is in my way but I know I'm not that great a skater. You can only tempt the fates so many times before you run out of luck.

Little kids just happen to move like rogue asteroids-they show up out of the blue and BAM there they are! And they have a knack for showing up under your radar, especially when you are setting up for a jump or raising your leg in a spin...

And, I just wanted to add, I still see better skaters doing back crossovers without looking where they are going....if they knock into me, who's at fault?

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Eloquently put, Skate@Delaware. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.

S xxx

The coach/lesson rule is only for the open ice during the day. Mostly it's used for people doing choreography or intense practice before a test day and an hour can fly by. Most people do an hour. They then skate on their usual evening sessions and have their 15 minute lesson or no lesson at all, what you guys would call a freestyle session.

Which is why I'm not skating this summer. Work has gotten in the way of going to evening sessions, and to go skate for an hour would cost me about $60, although I'd get a pretty intense lesson out of it.

Again, the strong Canadian system is superior, where 99% of skaters are in clubs, coaches must be NCCP certified (a 3 year process and longer) and having a certified coach is a requirement to skate in a club. Misbehave, and it's hard to find somewhere to skate.

[/QUOTE]And, I just wanted to add, I still see better skaters doing back crossovers without looking where they are going....if they knock into me, who's at fault?[QUOTE]

If one was to blame anyone, it was the better skater for not watching. Not one person who skaters owns the ice. We all have to share.
My daughter skates with a very tall skinny 22 year old.He is at least 6 foot 5.She knows at watch for him always, A because he is so tall and has huge camels.He watches for her as he is a better skater.
If you teach kids and adults how to be aware and the rules, it really is possible to share the ice. Accidents always will happen, its a part of the sport.

i was on today and it was busy, with the little hockey kids just skimming close to my sides, I swear they don't have to do that. As well as that there were lots of kiddies going the other way, and I couldn't even practise anything, it was that busy

I'm never goin in the weekends again, weekday mornings, thatswhere it is!

It's really different if you are in the middle of your program. In that case, the rules clearly state who is responsible for moving, and it's not the person who has the right of way.

I've never had a collision during a program, or any serious collision at all. I have yelled "EXCUSE ME" so loud that another adult skater got scared and crashed into the boards. I apologized afterward, I didn't mean to scare her!

Maybe this isn't as much of an issue for me because the clubs near me have rules about ice? There may be some younger skaters on the ice, but they have to finish Basic Skills before they can go to a FS session.

I also skate at 6am most of the year, twice per week. The ice isn't that crowded, so a couple of kids don't really impact the session. I also skate on an Adult FS session for about 1/2 the year, and that's heaven.

One of the days I skate, I share the ice with kids who have doubles and are really very good skaters. I'm far more intimidated by their skills than I am by LTS level. The little ones aren't very fast. My skills are good, and I am comfortable changing direction etc, but somebody flying down the ice into a double jump inspires me to head for the boards. Of course, when I'm in my lesson, this isn't an issue, because I have my coach to act as my second pair of eyes.

very good point!!

My sight is very limited when I skate and in some moves I would have to alter my technique to be able to see. The problem with kids is that they are so short, jsut seeing in front or behind is not enough...you have to see close to the ice also.

Makes it very difficult to avoid kids.

Come to think about it, every colision I've ever had with a skater has been with a skater whose head is below my hip. I've always been able to avoid a collision with someone whose height is above my hip.

Fact is, you have to have a great awareness of your surroundings and skill to be safe on a high freestyle session.


All I can say to any parents on here that want to put their young kids on freestyles (I am only speaking about the kids that cannot yield right of way and have no clue about the rules) your children will have to deal with people like me. If I have the right of way I will never bail out of a move unless I see danger in it for me. If your toddler is in the way and can't move...too bad. And guess what...suing is futile. Because you have to sign a waiver saying that you are responsible for any possible injuries!

that being said...I have no problem with kids if they know the rules and stay aware of their surroundings.

Must say I find this very concerning. If you have some kind of disability that limits your vision what happens when you get in the way of a small person who is doing his or her program, who has launched into a jump and can't bail out? When that collision happens I don't care about waivers, how would you feel if the small person is seriously or permanently injured? I know this thread is about LTS kids, but this just amazes me. This is way more dangerous than a small child marching around.

I sure hope I have misunderstood whatever sight issue you have.

I know other people's programs and am aware of where they are when they do them (younger kids included). The real problem is with young kids standing around or moving so slowly they may as well be standing around.

When you're setting up for a jump or a spin- there is a limited range that you can see- this is not called a disability ( an example would be a lift lane as someone else mentioned, there are blindspots but unlike cars- we don't have rear view mirrors). You can't be expected to have eyes in the back of your head! A 3 year old who is not moving is a hazard- its like having a barrel on the ice and you never know whether it may roll somewhere or if its not going to move at all. With an experienced skater it is much easier to predict what they may be setting up for.

Its not like I purposely look to hurt someone- but if i feel its too late to bail out of a jump I'm not going to put myself at risk for injury by trying to avoid a slow child who decided to skate out right in front of me when i had my back turned. Accidents happen and can be prevented by requiring some sort of ability on a freestyle session.

Okay, so first off, let me say that I'm not a lawyer. However, I believe that most rinks' waivers specifically pertain to people not holding the RINK management and staff responsible for any possible injuries. So in certain circumstances, might there be liability issues between two colliding skaters if one of those skaters (or his or her parents) believed the other party to be malicious or extremely at fault? I'm ****NOT*** saying that the "injured" party SHOULD sue--however, is this likely in some rare instances if one party felt it was a very deliberate act or something like that?

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Beach,

A three year old on the ice who is not moving, or just marching straight forward, with or without, a coach is a total hazard on a high-level Freetyle session. Children even slightly older (up to six) without any body coordination and abilities, is a hazard, too.

Up until this point I've been a real advocate for "Toddler Safety," but I'm getting a little fedup from a few parents who wish to argue the obvious. Now, I'd like to say something on behalf of the rest of the skaters on the high freestyle, whether they be dancers, singles, or pairs: we've had it with constantly having to abort everything for the sake of your kid, it is a hazard to OUR safety, and we have a right to skate for the session we paid for, which is a high-freestyle session. So, get your PRINCESS off the ice!

Tennisany1,

I understand your concern about where are you suppossed to put your daughter, because she has outgrown the LTS, but is still small enough to be in danger and a hazard to others on a high freestle session. If you read back on the thread, there was a lot of discussion to suggest implementing a "bridge" session for 5 and 6 year olds who have graduated from LTS, but are not ready for a high, and some for even a low-freestyle. It is not your fault that you have no choice but to put your kid out in a dangerous situation, because you are right, there is nothing in between for these kids, which is why there is such a high atrition rate from the LTS programs. I'm going to put a call into USFSA to see if anyone in this institution would even be willing to take a look at this situation. Please don't take this personally--I know it is infuriating for both sides.

Every Sunday I go to a public session and see around 10 figure skating children practicing in the middle, some very advanced (working on doubles), some just out of LTS and in private lessons...it always goes well, no collisions, and everyone is happy. The only ones at a disadvantage are those of us who would normally be on a freestyle but this is cheaper and fun, as the kids teach each other...and me ...

Most of these kids don't belong on a freestyle session. Just today there were insane hockey kids but these kids were still able to practice jump after jump.

Either we are very lucky in FL and at my rink in particular, or the moms don't realize public sessions are safer? (I'm sorry...they ARE...and I'm not a high level skater)

Guess Im glad we live where folks are tolerent of each other. No one would have any ice if we had to break it down to every persons level, under 6 ect.Fs are supportive of each other at our rinks, no matter what level or age.
Im not sure why people feel a need to be snotty or call names. That is just as rude coming from an adult as a child.

I dont think its any safer having anyone do doubles on public ice. That isnt what its for, unless you have very empty ice.

Beachbabe, sorry I misunderstood you. I took the above quote to mean that you had some kind of problem seeing that went beyond skating. I assumed it was something like you really need strong glasses for distance but didn't wear them for skating. Obviously I was incorrect I should have asked for clarification.

Lovepairs, As I said in my post, I am extremely lucky to belong to a club where we do have FS ice for different levels. We also have a bridge program. My daughter has in fact moved out of the program and into the regular junior program. She usually skates on junior ice and there are no unusual safety issues there. She does, however, skate on an open session once per week but I would not let her on without her coach if it was too busy. She has also come off on her own a couple of times because she feels uncomfortable. I should also say that we don't have any pairs practicing at our rink.

My daughter is very fortunate with the facilities available to her for skating (not that she realizes it ) I'm not sure if it is a Canadian thing or if we just lucked out with where we live but I will suggest that some of our parents who constantly complain about the ice time read this thread. It may make them appreciate what they have!

Tennisany,

The US system is WAY different than our CAN system. Up here, in order to do freeskate you usually belong to a club and pay to be on the appropraite freeskate session according to skill level. Sometimes there are exceptions, esepcailly if its "open" freeskate session.

In CAN, public skating is NOT meant for freeskate. Yes, some arenas do allow it, but overall, public skate is just that: for everyone. In the US its a bit different.

Its very very difficult to compare the US system and our CAN system with regardsto this topic.

Perhaps it is Buffalo's proximity to Canada, but our skating sessions are run like this too. Very few people figure skate on public sessions - usually just young teens who've stopped at LTS and want to fool around with their friends - waltz jumps, shaky spins, etc. They're not seriously practicing. My rink actually has figure skating public sessions, but a 4-surface rink can offer such diversity. There are no level restrictions, but since they're in early afternoon they are usually empty - 6-7 people max, and often less. The only restrictions is that there can be no coaching, which has more to do with an ongoing feud between the club and the town than logic.

But this region has at least 10 rinks I can think of off the top of my head within a 30-mile radius, and at least 5 that are year-round. Many other areas are much less fortunate, and have to make do with the ice they have.

As a parent who just today experienced their child having to have surgery at 5, don't you EVER EVER EVER have the gall or audacity to question how much I care for my daughter's safety or wellbeing.

Amen to that! I live in a sub-tropical climate (not a skating area) where the local figure club only has 50 members - we have no pairs and no dance teams. If they started turning away skaters because of their age at freestyle sessions, then there would be NO freestyle skaters at all.

In places like here, it's not viable for the rinks to offer such bridge programs and given that skaters follow right of way there really shouldn't be any issues. I actually discussed this with my daughters coach over the weekend, as during the freestyle sessions, the rink also holds LTS 'add-ons' for the kids, so they can get extra practice. Once again, she mentioned it was all about respect - respecting other people's right of way and respecting that not everyone has the same ability as you!

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

First of all AW1, you are impossible to have a conversation with, because you are so deluded about your child's safety on the ice. I really don't believe I have any "galll" at all, as you put it, when I show concern for your child's safety on the ice. So, back off!

Your daughter's surgery is quite a different matter, and I send both you my best wishes for a very speedy recovery. Clearly, it sounds as though you have her safety in mind in one context, but not in the other context (meaning the ice.) Your inability to even entertain the idea that she might not be in a safe environment on the ice, and that her presence can not only cause harm to herself, but also to other skaters on a high free-stlye session, or have a rational conversation about it, really points out how deluded you are about what is really going on out there on the ice.

A very low blow for you to bring her surgery into the mix of this conversation. If you are looking for a "sympathy vote" and want to play that game, well top this:

My husband had a tumor removed from his spinal column, 7 hours of neuro surgery, had to remove a vertabrea removed to get into the spinal cord to get the tumor out...it's a wonder his is still alive.

So, there...you happy...now can we get back to the converstation about what to do about Toddlers on the ice during high free-style sessions.

Good Lord, now I've read it all Righty-oh then, off to go back to my deluded world where her coach recommended she attend those freestyle sessions but of course, that'd just be the psychoses speaking wouldn't it

I'm off - have had enough of this thread and people's inability to respect other people and their opinions.......

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08