The thing is, if you're close enough to touch the wall if you choose, then you really don't have enough room to do the element.

Using the wall is something that one must get over in order to skate--no way around it. And the best way to do it is cold turkey. As you discovered, once you stopped touching the wall, you managed the element. It's still true out in the middle. As Nike says, JUST DO IT!

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I agree with you, IceDancer2, about the arm position. I'm sure VegasGirl is rotating her arms/shoulders. I teach it in the pre-rotated position first, otherwise students tend to force the turn by swinging their arms around, then they rotate out of it and can't hold the back edges.

It also seems to contribute to the leg swing, so I have them check [tuck] their free foot before and extend after the turn. (That's what I used to do because I didn't understand alignment and knee/foot control.)

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Hmm -- not sure what you mean (wish I could just with you on the ice and we could demonstrate for each other!! ) but I'm glad you mentioned the "check" which is the next point after the turn happens: so for the LFO 3-turn described above, after the turn, your arms (shoulders, too) should still be on the circle but in the opposite order: your left arm will be in front of you and your right arm behind (one th circle) while you are riding the LBI edge.

Clear as mud I suppose? Just wait until you get to mohawks!!!

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For those of you working on 3 turns - there will come a point when you can't even remember learning them.

FWIW, I'm still working on 3 turns - better speed, better edge quality, stronger check etc. One thing that helped me with my 3 turns was tucking the free foot behind the skating foot like when doing edges*. 3 turns, like everything else in skating, never go away and can always be better. I know a girl working on Intermediate MIF (I think its int. at any rate) and she's still working on her 3 turns too. So have no fear, we all feel your pain. Just think - before you know it you'll be working on BACK 3 turns

*It always baffled me why you learn 3 turns before edges...it would think learning edges would come first since everyone seems to have a hard time getting on that edge. It also baffles me to see instructors in group lessons teaching the 3 turn without the check. Yes, I see this at my rink, NO it's not my coach and yes it makes me angry.

I'm working on American Waltz (Silver dance) and STILL improving my 3-turns.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Oy, I'm working on my Starlight Waltz (pre-gold) & STILL improving my 3 turns!! It never ends.

I started on 2-foot 3-turns today with some help, and I don't remember who above said think "Bend, Twist, Up, Bend" but that worked great - Thank you! They aren't clean and they need a lot of work - but I can kinda do them! I made sure to work on them turning both ways, forwards at least, I understand how the backwards is supposed to work, but I didn't try them much, yet.

I also figured out that 1-foot backwards glides are a whole lot easier on an RBO or LBO today, I was actually able to balance for a good distance, which I was very excited about since it means that I am that much closer to learning back crossovers and real 3-turns. It's amazing to me how much easier it is to skate when you are on an edge than on the flat.

This thread has been enoromously helpful! Thank you All!

I'm loving this thread! I *barely* passed prelim moves and I hated those three turns. Now I have to do threes in the field. I was playing around with them the other day and what a mess! I can do all the threes if I had to do them separately and not on big arcs, but once I try to lay the pattern out -- eek. I have very swingy free legs.

I learned my lfi 3 on the wall. It was helpful to me as that three turn scared me to death.

I'm re-visiting 3 turns too,

I can do nice neat turns with my free foot tucked in behind, as I was taught to do for figures back when they were vitally important. I can do nice swinging ones for free skating too. But I cannot check the LFO 3 or my mohawks enough to get a balanced edge for flips.

How can I make my free skating turns checked enough? I use my shoulders and arms, I think of keeping my free leg behind me, but my exit edges are too curved. Is there a secret about the entry, the turn itself, or something after the turn that helps set you up for the jump?

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

When you check, you really shouldn't need to use your arms. You want to squeeze your (lats?) shoulder blades as hard as you can. Also you want to squeeze your glutius maximus (butt muscle), but that goes for everything in skating. But the check really comes from your shoulders. Your arms are just there because they're attached to yuor shoulders.

I once tried using the wall and couldn't do it. Though I can do it without the wall just fine.

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Don't worry I have no problems at all with 3-turns and my arms do exactly what they're supposed to do.

I'm curious as to what it is that I'm doing differently from the dissenting crowd, that I don't find the wall to be a hindrance.

Clearly, it's not an actual three turn that I'm doing, since I'm not yet making a three. But it occurs to me that I'm kind of trying to do things a little ot of order. I'm still kind of nervous about back pumping on a circle and I think that is probably a big reason why I don't like the idea of the three turn on an arc--yet.

It's not that I can't pump or that I can't take it in a circle. I'm just kind of scared of being out of control while moving backwards. So I work on the pumps very slowly for now and keep the 3 turn near the wall.

Today I made a point to practice it far enough away that I couldn't easily grab it and I successfully got around several times with no wall contact at all. Even with occasional momentum in the end.

Maybe I'm just at the point where I'm too much of a newbie to coordinate edges AND turning. I'm still pleased as pie that I can turn on one foot at ALL and not fall over.

And everytime I do it near the wall (where there is security) I feel myself getting braver and bolder and wanting to take it out and see what it can really do.

I did fall today, though--random toepick catch. It wasn't bad. I rolled like I had been thrown out of a moving car and a nearby coach commented on my "nice fall".

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

You could try making the entry of the 3-turn a little less curvy... since the 3-turn is supposed to be equal curves on the entrance and the exit. I do a fairly reasonable flip -- and my entry to the 3-turn is a bit shallower than it is when I'm doing footwork or moves. It's worth a try at least.

I drop my "inside" hip when I do FO3s -- resulting in a tiny, very curved exit edge. I'm aware of this, but cannot seem to stop it when I do the turn in isolation -- when I step into a toe loop (well, 1/2 toe), the turn is checked and fine. D'oh!

I had problems with subcurving on my exit, my one coach thought I was putting too much into it and forcing it.

One suggestion she made that worked for me most of the time is to put your hands on top of an imaginary table and hold that position before and after the three turn, it helped me for better alignment and keeping proper posture.

Another thing is to watch your hips, on my inside threes I would raise my hip causing it to subcurve while dropping it on my outside threes causing the same problem.

And a tip for back threes, try to make your toes touch the top of your boot, (I can do all four in my new boots now instead of the three with my old ones)

Steven

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"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Tink - just keep practicing - you'll feel more ease and comfort with the edges.
The wall can also be very dangerous as our ice is pretty poor there and it's easy to get caught. Also, knowing it's there you tend to rush the back side of the three in case you need to grab.

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Great thread!!! i spent a lot of time today on the FI 3's and fianally did them pretty well, hurray!! any advice on back outside 3's, my problem is that my weight goes forward and I scrape onto my toe, and I have a hard time checking my free leg, it seems to swind around at the turn, what should I think about when doing the outside 3's?

How do I make it less curvy? When I try to make the 3 turn flat, I skid. It's the same with my mohawk entry. I'm getting a fairly flat entry to the turn, but not the exit, even though I'm checking so hard my shoulders ache.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

Instead of trying to make a tight curve, elongate the edge you push into before you make the turn... hard to explain.. but try to picture it this way... instead of the first curve looking like a "C".. think of it as a longer curve like "(".... The way I do that is to keep my shoulders checked longer on that entry edge than I would for a shorter curve.

When I do 3-turns in footwork or on moves I try to make the first curve about 2/3-to-my-full-height. When I do it to set up for the flip, I try to make the 3-turn my-height-to-1.5-times-my-height (that doesn't mean it actually happens that way, but that's what I'm aiming for.)

I hope this helps.. but reading it over, I think it may be about as clear as the paint on the blue line. Anyone else want to try to make this make sense?

Try doing them on the hockey circle. That should enlarge the curve. Plus it gets you away from the wall.....We had to do an exercise (we meaning me!) where you do a LFO edge for 1/3 the circle, then 3-turn then another edge for 1/3 then step forward. It was to get me used to riding my edges and not anticipating the turn. We planned it so the 3-turn was to happen on the line that intersected the circle (or near the double lines). It worked!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Put your free leg in front of you and sqeeze your legs together.

Steven

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"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Your upper body position and twist is probably off, so work on those checks to start.

To check your foot, which I often call "tucking", place the inside of your free foot against the inside of your skating foot, with the free foot instep "snuggled" against the ankle of the skating foot boot. The knee of your free leg HAS to be bent.

Now close your thighs/knees and pretend that you have only one leg - you're a mer-person! Force yourself to keep those knees closed and that foot checked/tucked tightly. This stops the swing and helps keep you from chickening out/touching down.

Try to do this with rhythm: push and check the legs, down on the skating knee, rotate and check the arms/shoulders and LOOK BEHIND you in the direction you're going to turn. Now, come up on the knee and turn the foot using the sweet spot. Finally, back down on the knee, check the arms/shoulders again, and g-l-i-d-e.

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I like this description.

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

first of all, make sure you are learning the 3-turn on a half circle. Don't everrrr try to learn it on a straight line untill they are perfect on a half circle. Start in a T. For an outside 3 turn i start with my arms facing more towards the outside of the circle whicle still hugging it somewhat, I turn my upper body and the leg just turns in to position. For insides I keep my arms hugging the circle the whole way through and simply turn the upper body...the lower body will follow by itself.

Keep good posture and really focus on your upper torso. Don't try and force the foot to turn, b/c its supposed to turn by itself.