Is that the secret? I am really determined to figure out three turns but I don't think my feet quite understand the balance point and where and how to turn--enough--to get around all the way and not fall down. Why is this step so hard when it looks so deceptively easy??

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

You need to be on whatever edge you are going on (outside or inside) - its easier going on a slight curve... and try rotating your shoulders and head first before your hips... and also try it with minimal travel prior to trying it... so push off then try it

Once you get it, youve got it though (took me WEEKS to get - very frustrating - but now its easy as pie.. and Im just practising it faster and faster and with neat feet ) -

Crossovers however are another story!!! Cant do them well enough to save my life - so cant help you!! I think Im learning the wrong things first

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-Erinna-
aka cassarilda

My Progress Report!
"Did I mention there is only ONE rink in Melbourne?!"
"If you're not flying, you're obviously not trying!!!" - courtsey of the guy who helped me up off the ice after my last spectacular and sore fall

Not sure, but the best piece of advice that I have gotten on 3-turns so far is to be confident in my one-foot backwards glides before I try them, since that's how I will be going when the move is finished.

For those of you working on crossovers - keep going. That you're working on them at all is great. Crossovers are one of those things that the more you work on them, the more they really improve. You'll be refining them for years, so don't get too frustrated.

For three turns, I start teaching them by having the kids stand on a line and extend their right hand in front of them along the axis of the line, and their left hand behind them along the same axis. Then I stand behind them and hold the left hand and ask them to turn to me, keeping their right arm where it is. We also do this with all the kids lined up, so that everyone has someon'es hand in front and back, and we turn forwards and backwards. This gets them feeling the hip action. Then they go it alone and then on a small 1/2 circle with two feet, then to one.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

So are you saying your arms form a straight line (180 degree angle)? Our instructor told us to form a 90 degree angle with our hands "opposite front hand then starting foot"? Is this wrong, or just different?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Hi,
It's just a different way to teach it from the very beginning, as it's also a way for them to turn from front to back. We also stress the knees down, rise for turn, and knees down again. I also have very small tots, and they can get the easy arm positions. When they really start doing the threes, we modify the arms, bringing the back one more to 45 degrees, or "hug the circle. For those who have a beginning three, and are having difficulty finishing the back edge, I tell them to make sure that you look in the direction you want to go - sometimes I even have them point to it to get their shoulder back. This will help with control and eek out the last tiny bit back to the starting line.

I also use the same hand, same foot approach for going into jumps. I probable learned them with opposite hands, but once I started jumping the changing arm positions in mid 3 was an extra step I didn't need.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Thanks for clarifying.

I'm the only beginning 4 in my class (it's a Basic 3/4 class with 8 students... some repeating 3, some repeating 4, some starting 3, and me starting 4) so the 3 turn instruction went like this- "go ahead and work on 3-turns" she showed it, said "put your arms opposite how you want to go" then went to work with the Basic 3s on 2-foot spins! I assume because it was the first class she was more rushed and we'll get more instruction/corrections on this move in other classes (she was good about correcting other things)

I kind of did one, and then did a few where I dropped my back foot, but from seeing it once, I couldn't work out which edge went where or the pattern of the 3 it was supposed to make. I spent some time on the kitchen floor and I think I have an idea of it next time I can make it to the rink.

I have the hip snap part (like a 2-footed turn, right?) I think the thing I have to do is hold the edge and not put my foot down when I get scared about turning on one blade.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

See, that's why I figured the three turn would be easy (why do they call it that anyway??). Because my 2 foot turn is not so bad. I mean it's not completely intuitive but I don't have a problem with it. I hadn't realized, when I started all this, how very different two and one feet really are.

I'm even scared to put my foot down. I'm pretty sure I'd fall. So I grab the wall every time. Which, I realize, is probably doing the move for me entirely. I guess I'll have to wait to move it away from the wall until I'm completely certain I understand where I need to be on all points.

So far, to add to the arms discussion, I think my book told me to do same arm as lifted leg. So I point strait behind me with an open arm. I've tried this at home on the gaps between the tiles and I realize, even on a hard floor I don't make it all the way around. I get about half to three quarters around. I guess I should keep trying on barefeet, as well.

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

Hmmm... maybe this should be moved into it's own thread, since we now have a 3-turn discussion going on.

I didn't ever get to use the wall- we started learning them in the middle of the ice... maybe that's a good thing.

I think same arms as the lifted leg, would be what I called opposite arms. I was doing opposite arm (front) as the moving foot. Which would mean if I lifted the left leg then my left arm would be front.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Well us three-turn talkers took over another unrelated thread, so I thought I would post here to move the conversation.

So if you can't figure out a 3-turn to save your life, post here and "talk it out" until the other information posted helps you get it. Or if you're a 3-turn expert, post here so I can use what you say to figure out my 3-turn.

I don't have anything new to add just yet, but hopefully a moderator will move my other posts into this thread to get things started.

All this talking about 3-turns makes me want to figure it out even more and nail it on Wednesday

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Start on a reasonable arc, or circle, not too large for your size. The turn will sort of look like a three, but my former beau always thought they looked like heart
Try it on two feet, but when you go to one remember that the wt. will be centered over your one foot. Or do the forward edge on one foot with your other teo to your heel. Then put it down if you have to and pick it right back up. Don't rush the turn, and try to feel it in your knees.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

What's the best way to practice these off ice? I've been working on standing one leg and doing the turn. That's tough enough to do and keep a perfect balance. I'm also concentrating keeping my free leg pointed at my heel. I'm also working on my knee bend. But will this translate to any skill on ice?

Any other off ice ideas?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

it took me quite a while to get my outside 3s what worked for me is to think of the edge primarily (thinking too much into the hips and shoulders just gave me a headache), really commit to start on an outside and come out inside all while holding your posture -think of your core being really solid and hold your chin up, (being all lanky with arms and free leg flinging is going to throw you oh so off balance!) oh an get away from the wall, I've been there and done that get yourself at least 3feet away from the wall. OH be sure your blades are sharpened, if not you'll be slipping and slidding.

3's are really impt in skating they'll come up again in MITF tests, prep for jumps and spins so keep working at it!!


Keep practicing! OH and the off ice question, with hoisery or socks on a slippery wood flooor Ive done 3turns theyve helped a bit in terms of holding my balance coming out of the 3 (not putting my free foot down) obviously you can't mimick edge on socks on a floor )

Ah 3 turns, gotta love them. I am proud to say that I can now do three turns in all the different directions, but now my coach wants me to do the alternating 3 pattern. Just when yout thought it couldn't get any harder.

When I was first learning them, it really helped for me to say the steps in my head. I'd start from a standstill, push onto the leg I want to turn on, and say "Bend, twist, up, and down" The twist refers to pre-rotating your body before you turn. So you're all set to go and then all you have to do is stand up and let it all fall into place. Also, what really helped was looking where I was going. So I would turn my head because it's logical that you want to look where you were skating. My coach used to stand behind me and say "look at me, I don't see your lovely face!"

And dont work on only one direction. For the longest time, I only did LFO and RFI because it was more natural. This was before I started privates. Had I been working on each direction together, I doubt it would have taken me so long to get comfortable going both ways. Even now, I know i can do them in both directions, but I still hesitate a bit before doing a RFO or LFI 3-turn.

It's called 3-turn because you turn in a pattern that looks like a 3 on the ice. And I have a feeling you're not doing that... meaning you're going into the turn to straight instead of just about a half circle before actually turning.

I was taught this way... example for LFO-3-turn... T-position with left foot in front, left arm forward, right arm to the right at 90 degrees... push off with the right gliding on the LOE in a half circle and then do the turn at the pivot point where it almost does itself... finally finishing with a LBI half circle.

VegasGirl's probably right, especially if you're trying to do them at the boards. (no, no, no, no, no!!!! Sorry...I have issues with learning things next to the boards....I'm afraid I'm going to hit the boards, which would make me fall, so I like to do things well out into the middle. And I've always felt that falling on my bum out in the clear is much preferable to falling on my bum and smacking my head on the wall on the way down. )

Follow VG's instructions, starting perpendicular to one of the blue or red lines. You'll push off away from the line, making a half-circle--the turn happens at the top of the half-circle, and then you finish the half-circle backwards, coming back to the line a yard or so down from where you started. If you're doing it straight, then you're on a flat, not an edge....which is kind of defeating the purpose. Because of the curvature of the blade, being on an edge means you will naturally skate in a circle of some sort. You've got to trust it, not fight it. If you're forcing the turn, you're not trusting the edge enough.

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Just in regards to learning at the barrier... I could NOT do 3-turns when at the barrier... couldnt do them at all...

I moved into the center, spent an entire 3hrs working on them (intermingled with a few other basic things - mohawks etc) and FINALLY got them!! But only when I went to the middle...

my theory as to why?

It forced me to have better posture and I had to depend on my body to do the work, rather than pushing against the barrier (and we all do it even though we try not to!)

Bending beforehand (like we should be anyway), then rising slightly for the turn, and bending afterwards also helps alot... but I find that once someone put pressure on the shoulder that turns first, I just remembered that pressure and applied it to all my turns... so my shoulder turns first, then my arms, head and THEN my hips. I hope that makes sense

Keep trying.. you'll get them!

and once you do, you can try back 3s.. and then twizzles!! The current bane of my existance (next to crossovers )

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-Erinna-
aka cassarilda

My Progress Report!
"Did I mention there is only ONE rink in Melbourne?!"
"If you're not flying, you're obviously not trying!!!" - courtsey of the guy who helped me up off the ice after my last spectacular and sore fall

The turn should happen naturally as you raise your bent knee. If your shoulders and arms are rotated, and your weight is in the right place, then just rising up will do it. You don't have to twist your hips, just let them turn. Try on two feet first to get the feeling of the turn happening instead of being forced.

All of this is from someone who is terribly three turn challenged, though mostly from fear. I had FO threes very suddenly, very easy, could do one anywhere anytime. Signed up for pre-pre MIF test and broke wrist the next day. Five years later, I still do not have those easy threes back. They come and go. They came back nice and solid for two weeks, just long enough for me to pass the pre-pre MIF, then started acting up again. Some of my problem with them is due to boot trouble, and new boots are in the works very soon. DH pointed out something that helped on Friday. He said that the slower you take the turn, the more time your blade is in contact with the ice, making it easier to catch the edge. I speeded them up, and it really was easier and felt a lot safer. Finally, if you learn by example, watch the elite comps and shows and look specifically for the threes (true for XO's also). I got BO threes from watching Irina Slutskaya. They come and go too, though .

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Wow! Thanks for all the input.

I thought I was loosing my mind for a moment, though. I don't remember starting a thread about 3 turns. I was thinking about doing just that, actually. So thanks for doing it for me.

Now, on to the three turn.

Apparently I am just seriously stubborn. I have my comfort zone and I refuse to learn it any other way. I think maybe it comes from years of ballet and being accostomed to having a bar to practice with. I suppose that can be kind of a crutch as well.

I've just never been afraid of falling at the boards. For most things I just kind of slam into it sideways and I am tall enough that I catch it with my hips and arms.

Anyway, that's just been my method thus far. Work it out at the wall. Then take it out to the center. Obviously most things are going to eventually require an arc to work on, so I try to linger at the side only long enough to figure it out. Forward pumping I never felt compelled to use the wall but backward pumping I still feel kind of uneasy about. Like if I hit the wrong edge I will go down like a demolished building. I'm very fearful of going down the wrong way.

But here's the thing. The comedy of errors, if you will.

I have been very focused and determined to get this darned 3 turn and have been practicing it over and over the last several days. Today, I just felt this drive to get it right. Granted, at the side so far--to get the feel for the direction shift.

Again and again and again.

Finally, I decided to just take a deep breath, give it a little wind-up (the prerotation) and go. To start with I was using the wall to lift up. But after a while, only to grab to steady myself at the end. And then, I realized my arms were not checking all the way.

I made a promise to think of my arms and the check and all of a sudden, quite without expecting it, I just did it. Bam! All the way around. Arms free and clear. Butt hit the boards afterwards a little but the arms were FREE!

Tried it again and did it again.

I think I finally got the hang of it. Next time I take it to the circle.

The comedy part of this is that I said, somewhere in this tread (or possibly another one) that I was working on the Forward Outside 3 turn. That's the one, the book I've been working out of, was starting with.

Only, when I went back to the book to check how they said to do the arms, I discovered that I was not, in fact, doing the outside turn. I guess I must have learned the inside turn by accident. I guess I tend to prefer doing most things on an inside turn. It pushes me out of traffic rather than into it.

So, any thoughts on that? When I go back out there and try to do the outside turn am I going to find that it's harder? Easier? Similar?

Hopefully, I can still do this one. There seems to be some sort of twisted karma at the ice rink, wherein if you have a good practice one day, it sucks the next. Anyone else notice this?

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

I wonder whether you have yet all seen the Figure Skating FAQ, which I've quoted on forward 3-turns, but there are plenty of other things on there, too. If you haven't yet had a look, do so!

I still have trouble turning LFO3s at speed when solo (and occasionally when partnered), but technically they are better than most of my other one-footed turns.

Don't forget, there are 32 one-footed turns to master!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I used to practice them on the hockey goal circle....it's just the right size.

They have a down-up-down motion and nice flow-nothing is rushed.

Practice back edges to get comfortable with that part. The going backwards part is where people really freak out first I did.

The hardest thing was NOT looking down.....guilty still

Free leg is at the heel of the skating foot.

I'm still working out the arm thing.....one day I'll remember where they are supposed to go (my coach will probably have a heart attack when that happens!!!)

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

As far as practicing anything at the boards - be careful. In one of our rinks the ice slopes in right at the boards. It's really easy to get caught in it. Also turning to be able to catch the boards, just in case, throws off your body position and balance and makes learning the skill more difficult.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I finally got it when I told myself, sternly DO NOT TOUCH THE WALL!

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

Thanks. I'll have to study that page closely.

That should keep me busy!

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"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." (Kathy Butler)

I hope that you are rotating your left arm behind you and your right arm (and shoulders too) in front of you before turning. Otherwise you are going to block yourself.

I tried your method this morning just to see if I could and although I could do it (I've been skating for 40+ years) it was a lot harder.

You have to think about hugging the circle with your arms (just like for cross-overs), strike the LO edge, bend your knee, and the turn just happens really.

I also don't think it really matters if you learn it next to the wall or not. At some point or another everyone needs to use the wall, or the kind hand of your coach...

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