I have recently changed my set up and take off into this jump. I used to do it from a regular RFO 3 (I'm a clockwise skater) with reasonable success at first but recently I was getting too much swing, no check and no lift and so we have now changed the set up to LBO3 mohawk.

However I'm finding it very hard to get any lift at all and when I do manage to take off I feel myself jumping and rotating in a very open position. I can't seem to get the correct free leg movement to snap into rotation. And I find that when I really concentrate on ensuring the RBI edge is good and secure with my weight all correct etc it takes so long that I can't actually do anything with the jump.

Any tips greatly appreciated.

Make sure you're toepick is the last thing leaving the ice from your RBI edge. That will assist you in completing the necessary rotation by allowing yourself to be turned all the way forward before taking off and help you achieve the desired height. Keep the right arm in front of you on the RBI edge and you'll find it easier to turn around fully before take off.

When skaters fail to take off fully from a straight leg and off their toepick, open rotation during the actual jump can be happen because the body to be in an incorrect position for take off and the in-air position. This can cause the hips to be back, the free leg to be blocked when bringing it through, a tilt in the jump due to the dropping of a shoulder, etc.

Keep striving for a strong RBI edge on the mohawk and try to develop an even rhythm by doing multiple walk throughs of the jump. Think 1 (mohawk), 2 (RBI edge), 3 (jump). Focus on deep knee and ankle bend and follow that through with a strong, straight take off leg.

Actually my double sal improved a lot as soon as I switched from the FO3-turn entrance to the BO3-mohawk entrance, but it only worked when I really focused on controlling the BO 3-turn. By that, I mean keeping it really checked. Also, it helped to bend the takeoff knee deeply *before* starting to bring the free leg through for takeoff. Another thing that helped was to really hold the forward inside 3-turn exit edge before stepping down onto the back inside takeoff edge (you can see Miki Ando doing that when she sets up for her quad sal.). BUT, having said all that, I am now back to the FO 3-turn entry because I lost my mojo on the BO3-mohawk entry after about 6 months of doing it that way!

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I agree, whatever entrance you like, checking is the key. When I was learning the single sal, my coach had me hold the second lobe of the three turn as long as I possibly could, and then finally jump. This carried over to the double, so no swing. I also think "face the jump" so I jump up then rotate.

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I do it from the three turn entry.

flo is absolutely correct. My count it One-two/CHECK-up-land. I am really close on rotation - just need to get a little more "up".

I've tried the entry that the OP is doing with no success.

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Thank you. Coach always tells me to check that BO3 more and hold the FI. Perhaps I need to focus on this more and holding this longer rather than hangning onto the RBI for ages where my little brain catches up with itself.

(I have a feeling I will end up reverting to RFO3 set up once I can demonstrate a level of control and demonstrate that I can do the jump without swinging wildly with no lift........)

The first time I did it I barely jumped at all. It is a tough set up as for me it seems like the jump will not work at all (even a single) unless everything is correct whereas the 3 turn set up has a larger margin for error. So I hope this set up will force correct technique. I could land the thing from a 3 turn but it was technically yucky. All swingy and no lift. Hence the change.

I wouldn't suggest the BO3 mohawk set up unless the 3 turn set is yucky - as mine was. (Btw yucky is my technical term to describe useless double salchows )

I agree with coach PA about the toe pick and rotating on the ice before take off (but of course it depends which side of the coin you are on when it comes to the pre-rotation debate). If you go with that then the toe pick will be of use to you in getting some height. I used to think about making a small tick with my toe pick on the take off.

Also, to help get a tighter position I found that focusing on bringing my free leg in and up close to the body, with the toe pointed inwards, helped.

I know you don't like them but I always found that doing a double salchow from a half loop was good to practice because it had me in exactly the right position on the jumping leg for take off and it was easier to time.

But I shouldn't really be giving you advice. Last time I saw your double salchow (ages ago!) it was good and way better than mine.

Good luck!

No no no your technique was always better than mine.

Maybe will try from half loop again seeing as I can actually 'jump' from the BO3 mohawk which is an improvement.

Is it ok to turn all the way to forwards? I know there is an element of prerotation in most jumps but with this method would I not then just be doing an axel? I thought I should take off when my free foot comes across and up rather than all the way forwards?

Yeah, pattern is very important on that BO3. It works best when I focus on keeping the BO3 parallel to the boards (i.e., long, checked and straight). Then, on the FI exit edge, I it hold longer than it feels like I should, until it starts to curve. Then I step down, bend and scoop up. It's all about the setup!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

An axel takes off a FO edge yet the toepick is still last to leave the ice. The salchow, at least in the set up we're talking about, takes off a BI edge with the toepick the last to leave the ice. So, no--you are not doing an axel, although you may feel that way since the in-air position for axels are the same in-air position as in other doubles (similiar to a backpsin).

Once you develop the correct timing, you should not feel as though you're doing an axel upon takeoff because the double sal will have a continuous movement rather than a lingering wait after the mohawk entrance. The in-air position is what will feel similar to an axel.