I was just thinking the same thing. Adults are more likely to spend money on any conference if it's at a "destination."

The ISI is having an (open) national competition in Orlando, FL over Memorial Day weekend, followed by their annual conference. Although, with the economy, they might be a bit pinched.

The Olympics are coming and the LTS programs will grow more. Basic Skills programs are generally run by the rink, who have very little interest in watching "their skaters" move on to a skating Club. They make more money off the group lesson programs than they do off skaters on freestyle/commissions from lessons unless s/he becomes a twice-daily skater.

The staff who run the USFSA's Basic Skills program are awesome and provide great materials to keep the programs growing, something the ISI also enacted with their "We Skate" program.

Again, I think that the USFSA needs a good analysis of all competition numbers over the past four years to see what the trends are for the sport, esp. the Adult events/competitions.

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Bluemoon...The development of the basic skills level is very good, and is growing. This certainly doesn't detract from adult skating, it will ultimately benefit it immensely in the long run. It will however take a few years. If adults in basic skills delay full club membership, this is just a consideration of their present budget, the fact that they often are financing their kids through skating as well and also they have yet to decide whether they want to be committed long term. All valid concerns. For now, it's most important that they just have fun learning with other adults at the same level.

Skating has always been expensive, but it's also much more expensive than it used to be (also a deterrent for some that can prevent the move from a basic skills program to private lessons). 10 years ago, I (well, my parents) paid about $5.50-8/hr for a session of club ice. Now I pay $11-15/hr. Luckily I haven't seen coaching costs go up...I had 2 coaches as a teenager and paid one $12 and the other $14 for a 15-minute lesson, now I have one coach who charges $13.50. Due to increased cost of ice, travel/lodging for judges, etc, competition entry fees are much higher ($30-45 for the first event vs. $60-80), as are the fees clubs are charging for tests.

Again, saying that figure skating is a young sport in the sense that I did has nothing to do with the age of its participants. Sure, people have been skating for hundreds of years. But it's only been the last 50 that we've grown from a recreational activity and form of entertainment to a legitamate, mainstream sport. The rules have been and still are constantly evolving, and the standard keeps getting higher. Adult staing isn't going to be static when the sport as a whole is constantly evolving. Especially when you've got growing collegiate programs creating a bridge from skating-as-a-kid to skating-as-an-adult. That's not going to go away any time soon.

Blanket rules such as limiting moves tests aren't the solution. That might encourage participation in some areas (older age classes), but will limit it in others...do you think skaters such as Jocelyn and myself, legitamate silver freestyle skaters (neither of us even made the podium in Silver I), would want to compete freestyle if we were forced into intermediate or novice because we have moves tests that are 3-4 levels higher? (Don't take this the wrong way Jocelyn ) Neither of us would be competitive in intermediate/novice at this point in our skating carreers (I'm not talking about winning, I'm talking just having the jumps/spins to stand a legitamate shot of not being blown away by skaters with intermediate or novice free...that's why we're silver right now and not intermediate/novice, even if that level may be our ultimate goal one day.)

I guess I wouldn't be fully opposed to trying to split off into a test track/standard stream to see how it works, particularly at II, III and IV, but in some places there just isn't the numbers for that at AN (age class I, all of the men), and it would take a while to catch on and increase participation. Part of the fun of nationals is having a large group your own age to compete against, because all season we have small groups, or events at local competitions cancelled altogether. And if you did that in age class I, that still won't prevent someone with higher moves, no axel, and a shaky flying camel they'd rather not do anyway from competing test track. (Granted I'd probably go standard even without the axel since I'm really competitive and would rather be challenged, since being challenged to take it to the next level and not winning makes one a better skater than winning without a challenge...but some people who want to win might stay test track.)

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I'm trying to understand....hence the reason I've asked 2178641321 questions here.

Has the focus shifted from doing several small local events to just doing Sectionals or ANs? I know the reason I don't usually do the local events (although I have done yours, Blue, a few times) is twofold. One, I like a large group to compete in. Being in a group of two or three isn't as good (for lack of a better word) for me as a group of 6 or 8. Two, It's better for me to save several $60-$80 entry fees through the year and put it towards Sectionals and ANs. In New England, we do have a good amount of adult skaters, but there does always seem to be tiny groups in local competitions, especially at Gold. This past season I went to Halloween Classic and NYI because I knew there would be big groups. Now that there are more all adult competitions, there really isn't a need to do the smaller "kid" events that just have adults in there. I do see the all for one, one for all attitude at the events I went to certainly.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I use to compete in several events a year, but have recently done 1 local event and AN. It's due in part to the fact that as I've been competing for a while, I don't require as many events to feel comfortable with the program, and I also get invited to do shows here. This year was different in that we started late with only the intention to do artistic pairs events and didn't have a pairs program until March!

The sectionals is not a draw for me as I have no interest in the championship events, so it would be similar to any other event. What draws me to the events is the chance to catch up with friends and the experience. As Bluemoon and I have said, the feeling of nats and the local events has changed over the years. It's more of a focus on "me" and not the group.
One reason I love having AN in Lake Placid is that it's a tiny town and when you walk around the streets, the folks you see are the skaters, and you're part of the group. This year was also great in that wherever we went we felt welcome. There was a recognition by the LOC that this was an important event and something to be celebrated. Another consideration ifor choosing the local events is the cost - what would be more beneficial, the $$ spent on the event or on ice and coaching time?

For this year, I'd love to go to the Peach - always great fun or the Halloween classic, and AN. Also on the horizon is the Mountain Cup or Germany. I went to The mountain cup a few years ago in pairs and it had the "feeling" of the first adult nationals.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I swear if Adult Sectionals was held in Vegas again next year, I will come out of my self-imposed hiatus to compete!!! I missed last year and have lived to regret it. (BTW: What were the numbers for San Francisco vs. Vegas? Or if you can't give numbers, can someone tell me whether it was more profitable in San Francisco or Vegas? Just curious... )

If it was back at my own home turf.... Hmmmm? Tough choice...

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yes, they are moneymakers if done correctly (see point concerning PCAS this year). I never said they weren't.....my point was that clubs don't bid, mistakenly thinking that they aren't moneymakers. We have had several years where the deadline passes for bids in a section....sans a single bid. IMO, Adult Sectionals are easy money for a club...how many competitions can guarantee a reasonable number of entries/starts for a weekend event where you don't (for now) have to deal with IJS?

I would love for my club to host Mids, but my job doesn't allow me to be home enough to do the work involved (my idea, my responsibility, right? )

Perhaps "movement" is the wrong word..."talk" would be better, since there is no official discussion. My bad. But I have heard that idea through various unofficial channels, to the point where I approached an adult committee member, concerned that we would lose them. He reassured me that they are here to stay...but I think we would all agree that, like any competition, AS are dependent on entries.

As for the folks discussing local comps....I don't do local comps because it seems that for the time/money, you don't get a decent number of competitors. I'd rather spend the extra money and do something like Peach, Halloween, NYI, or DBNAI than a local comp. (Which, btw, are also very dependent on number of entries.)

vesperholly is correct--that it's mostly a PR thing. The reason 2005 Mids struggled for entries is that they didn't do a great job in recruiting local adults, especially from places where they could have cultivated future AN competitors. I think some who didn't compete saw the word "Sectionals" and assumed that it meant "former kid skaters." (Okay, I did have to correct one woman....)

Perhaps, rather than altering the way ANs are run, the attention should be placed back at the club/coach level. US Figure Skating is now requiring continuing education....a course on Adult Skating might be a great idea. Rather than looking at it like "Adult Nationals is too hard for a group of skaters," we should be looking at it as "not enough skaters are realizing that if you pass the test, you qualify."

Now we're really not talking about this year's Governing Council, but about visions for adult skating in gneral? Should this be a separate thread?

I'm sure it varies by individual. The question is who is in a position to identify a trend?

I, on the other hand, concentrate on local events mainly to save money.

Fortunately I have New Years Invitational available to me locally. And it allows me to enter only one or more of the specialty events if I don't have a freestyle program sufficiently trained that year to enter the freestyle event. If I do enter freestyle there, there will probably be some breakdown by age.

I've never taken my coach to that event, and I wouldn't to an out-of-town adult event, because she doesn't have other studetns competing there. The advantage of skating adult freestyle at a "full-service" nonqual competition with all sorts of kids' events as well is that I can have my coach available. On the other hand, I'm more likely to be competing against skaters a decade or two younger than me and/or in a combined bronze-silver event.

I looked at the video of the bronze III group at ANs and that does seem to be a very appropriate event for me to compete in. It's just the cost of travel and hotel to go skate for 2 minutes without a coach that keeps me from entering.

Just chimed in to catch up on this thread and now I'm kind of confused. I thought the complaint was that AN was suffering from diminished participation, but what I'm reading here sounds more like nostalgia for when AN was smaller and more intimate.
I have personally found the environment at AN to be so supportive, friendly and social that I am almost overwhelmed by it--more so each year. Are you only associating with people you still know from the early days, or are you also making an effort to meet the newcomers?
BTW, I like your idea of a reclassification for anyone who took FS tests when the requirements were less difficult. You should definitely bring it up to the Adult Committee!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I haven't chimed in much on the recent discussion, but I have to say that I completely disagree with this. AN is what you make of it. Yes, it is about "me" - after all, "I" am the one who is skating. It is also about seeing friends who I get to see maybe once or twice a year. It's about cheering for (and throwing tossies to) both friends and skaters that I have never met but whose programs that I like. It's about sitting there and watching skaters I don't know and enjoying their skates - while talking/being with skating friends. It's about being an adult doing something that many people can only dream of - and in that I mean not necessarily skating, but pursuing a dream - any dream.

Now, for the other comments that I wanted to make and haven't yet. AN is not about a level playing field. If it was, then we'd have "competitor" ribbons at AN and get juice boxes after we skate. I fall into one of the events that I am no longer particularly competitive in (oh, and I am one of those dreaded kid skaters with real adult limitations) - and that is the gold level. I haven't had a good sectionals showing in years. I've never medalled in the open events at AN. Championship gold in 2003 the one time that I qualified is vastly different than championship gold now. Do I whine about it? Yeah, sometimes. However, it's not about the strength of my competitors rather about my own weaknesses.

YMMV, but I think that AN and adult skating is going in the right direction. Do we need some tweeks? Yeah. However, I do trust the individuals on the adult committee to do the best that they can within the constraints of US Figure Skating to ensure that we have good opportunities to skate and compete as adults.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Skateguard... ITA!! My secondary coach within the last two- three years or so started to work with adults. I started with him last summer. I forwarded him the adult skating e-newsletter that I got from the ASC. He was thankful for the information and yes, I did have to clairify for him that I did not have to do Sectionals first before AN.
I'm also planning on putting out the word on NYI and any other adult competitions/skating events that I hear about to the other adult skaters in my area.

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

From doubletoe;
"Just chimed in to catch up on this thread and now I'm kind of confused. I thought the complaint was that AN was suffering from diminished participation, but what I'm reading here sounds more like nostalgia for when AN was smaller and more intimate.
I have personally found the environment at AN to be so supportive, friendly and social that I am almost overwhelmed by it--more so each year. Are you only associating with people you still know from the early days, or are you also making an effort to meet the newcomers?"

Actually the early AN's were not small and intimate. They were quite large.
This last AN was supportive, but when was the last time you were at an AN with a standing room only crowd in the bleachers? Having been to all of them, I can say that, yes there has been a significant change in the "feeling" as I and bluemoon have mentioned.

And skater1964 - no one wants snarky juice boxes, but to enter an event at your qualification level that actually resembles your level. Its' not that everyone expects to medal, but expects to be competing at the correct level.

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thank you!!!

Lw

I think this is in large part because people can't always afford to stay the whole week, especially lately with the economy in the toilet. It's always difficult to get non-skating spectators to come to any event below standard Nationals, anyway.

Even standard nationals tends to have loads of empty seats at a lot of events.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Sure, but again, I'm looking at trends at AN. That's why I'd really like to see some numbers and hard facts as to attendance, and the makeup of skaters. You can't go forward if you don't know where you are and where you've come from. We're seeing the results now of changes without this perspective and information.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

This really depends on the person, because I've been to all 15 ANs too and I don't agree. Wilmington was "intimate" in that it was all held in one rink, on one surface, so that aspect has obviously changed dramatically, but to me that's really it. I see still the same encouragement and support from all the competitors that has become the hallmark of adult skating.

YMMV.

Sure, Wilmington was expecting 150 but had 600. The AN's following were quite large. I'm not saying that there's no "encouragement or support" just that it has changed. Since you can't measure it, this is why I'd like to see a comprehensive survey of the adults to get everyone's input.

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Yes...and hopefully that won't be the case again. Remember, bids are due June 1!

Okay...I'l accept talk. You are correct there has been talk among various channels. And, yes, they are dependent on entries and clubs bidding on them.


Yes! This brings back a memory about that year that I had forgotten until now. I went to check in and turn in my music and the lady made a comment to me something like "...okay, you can tell "her" that that she can go to locker room x and here is "her" goodie bag." I looked at her at said..."I am the one competiting...it's for me". I swear she looked at me like I had two heads when I said that! My look then turned into a glare, and I walked away. What you said above definitely explains that comment.

Yes, education would be a good thing!

My current club is good and understanding about most things with adult skaters (or at least if it is brought up they try very hard to be, pretty much everything assume you are a child and then accomodates for the adult) but I had to skip an opportunity to skate in another club's show. A parent was required to volunteer DURING one of three shows. Otherwise a $200 fee was levied. I asked if I could do some sort of work for set up or tear down, and was told that the parent must work during the show. Um- my Mom isn't willing to drive 1,000 miles to come do that. (I suppose DH could have done it, but he would have been really uninterested in doing that.)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

...........

Yeah, clubs need to realize that adult skaters are 18+ and can do the same volunteer jobs as the parents of skaters 17 and under. A matter a fact I don't see why they won't let some skaters 16+ volunteer for things other than runners at competitions.

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"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

http://eastcastlemusic.tripod.com

Singerskates Sports Music Editing

Well I guess the nature of "feelings" is that they are very subjective,and while they are neither right nor wrong, the tone of your posts in general seem to reflect so much dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the current Adult Skating program and in particular Adult Nationals, which seems rather sad to me. Frankly, I don't share your perspective, and I am definitely in the over 30 crowd, and have personally been blessed with nothing but extraordinarily positive and supportive experiences at Adult Nationals and the other adult competitions I have attended over the last several years from both my old skating friends, and new young whipper snappers. So much so, that in point of fact, that I felt inspired to travel to Europe last year, even though I had no intention of skating due a chronic injury, to support my skating friends and with the hopes of making new friends in O'dorf and at the Mountain Cup. I really had a blast just being a cheerleader, tissue holder, skate bag shlepper, etc., and I know someone else who is doing the same thing this year as well, and in fact also came to Grand Rapids this year to do the exact same thing. I am sure that over the years there have been others doing the same.

It's certainly appropriate to acknowledge the past and its connection to the present state of adult skating. It's equally wonderful to hold fond memories of what once was, but time does march on, and changes are inevitable. I have always felt and continue to feel, and have personally witnessed that there is a place in adult skating for everyone. The only real requirement is that you lace up your skates and have the courage to step out on the ice and do your best. It also helps not to have any preconceived notions of how things "should be". Things are never going to be the same as they were 5 or 10 years ago. This is not to say they are better or worse now, they are just different. But from my perspective they are really quite awesome, and I have definitely experienced camaraderie amongst the majority of skaters. both young and old, that I have come in contact with over my years of skating. Perhaps this is a bit of the glass half full versus half empty scenario. I do hope you continue to enjoy your skating in whatever venue your choices lead you. Happy skating.

If you think everything is wonderful now the way it is, fine.

Just be aware that there are a lot of people who don't feel the same way, and who also feel that they have been disenfranchized in the creation of that "wonderfulness."

By focussing some much energy and money on Adult Nationals, USFS has neglected the base that produced the event. Frankly, I don't know if the people who have left because of that will ever come back. And if they don't, well, I can't blame them.

In response to the people who say they don't do local competitions because the groups aren't big enough, well, how do you expect the groups to BE bigger if you don't enter? Back in the Dark Ages, when we were trying to convince clubs to OFFER adult events, several of us (usually five but sometimes as many as eight or ten) would get together and all enter the same competition, travelling together, just to show the club that adults were worth their while. It worked, too. There wouldn't BE Adult Nationals at all if USFS hadn't seen the numbers of adult skaters competing locally first.

I simply prefer not to do local competitions.

Due to my work/school schedule, I can typically only skate Friday morning (1 hr), Saturday (1-2 hrs) and Sunday (1-2 hrs, dance only session). Even though competing is valuable, it means I lose a whole day of practice (two days if travel is involved).

Timing of local competitions is typically such that it's the weekend before or sandwiched right between bigger adult competitions where I know I'll have a decent sized group to compete against and am signed up for multiple events (dance, free, interp, compulsory). I can't lose a whole day of practice and my lesson time the week before a big competition.

That being said, I do let the club hosting a local competition know that if anyone signs up at my level or one level higher, to please let me know and I will enter (easier than them having to worry about me signing up, being the only one, and having to issue a refund, which is typically the case for anyone above bronze in my area. Bronze and pre-bronze can usually get a group). I'll also do interp, but sometimes that means being lumped in with just the pre-bronze skaters who typically do interp...as one of those evil, dreaded former kid skaters with high moves who normally competes masters interp, I can acknowledge that I don't belong in this group, it's not fair to them, and I only do it if I'm needed for numbers to hold the event. And I recenlty let the local gold skater know that if there is any competition she wants to do, to let me know and I'll skate up, especially if we can get them to judge us under IJS because the equipment/officials are already in place for juv-senior.

If 2 hrs is "local" there is one competition that offers juvenile and below and adult events, and actually got a great adult turnout last year, in fact, it was the biggest group I competed in other than nationals (7 skaters). I'll do that one again, even though it's the day after fall semester finals and I'm typically mentally/physically drained and skate like crap.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything