If your daughter keeps using both the good and bad placements to fuel her desire to improve, then it will all even out in the long run and she will end up on top. The point is to use every experience--good and bad--to fuel that desire.

Also, she's lucky that in the next few years, judging for USFSA competitions will be taken over by the Code of Points system, which requires judges to fill out a sheet in which they judge each element and program component. Looking at the sheets will tell you specifically what the judges found fault with.

wow this is intense
um let's just say that judges do funny things some times
but not all judges are criminals
and most judges have certain tastes
and thank God that the new judging system revises the techincal side of the performance
as far as presentation goes, the judges can hold up skaters if they want to in CoP, but let's just hope they don't!

arguing on a forum is not the solution, in fact, I really don't know what is.

Wow. Some of you all are way too hard on judges.


As a skater myself with a kid who skated competitvely through novice, this my advice, for what it's worth.


Skating is a subjective sport. Not everyone agrees on what constitues a winning performance, let alone the successful completion of each element in one. Some judges don't have a clue, although most do. Some coaches don't have a clue, although many do. Some parents don't have a clue. Some do. Judging is rarely perfect, however all kids I've ever met need support and if their parents get upset and convince them that things are rigged against them, there's not going to be any hope or joy for them in competitive skating, in my opinion.


People are imperfect creatures. Figure skating is a difficult discipline. Jumps make it nearly impossible. Most kids who start skating won't land an axel. Most who land an axel won't ever land a double axel. A tiny, minute, almost invisible fraction of those who start will ever land a single tripple. Especially among girls, even in lower-level competitve figure skating, the competition is large and at times a real snake pit. If a skater and/ or their support system can't handle all that and put it in perspective, if there isn't relatively great love, enthusiasm for the sport, competetive skating is probably going to make them miserable, if not downright insane, and they should probably move onto something that involves a finish line and a stopwatch.


Having extensive involvement with a wide variety of judges over many years, I see them as wonderful group, generally- tireless and selfless volunteers, lovers and supporters of the sport, unusually devoted to skating as a discipline, serving skaters at all levels. Most judges have other things to do apart from skating- job's families, but they'll show up at the rink on a Saturday morning at 6:00 to judge a test or critique a skater on a few days notice or spend their entire vacation sitting in a cold rink for expenses and free food from hospitality. Again, they're not perfect. No one is, but mostly, they trie really hart. They're always learning, but mostly they are great and committed volunteers who give much of themselves to the sport.



The vast majority of judges are not only willing to critique skaters but love to do it. The time for this though, is not generally in the middle of a competition when judges are usually right on to another event, or where they might not have separate impressions of each of the 100, or more, skaters they've seen at the competition so far. I have been at competitions where a judges critique of an actual performace was offered as part of the sign up. In those cases, one judge from each pannel, probably the referee, did all the critiques but they knew in advance, so they were prepared and probably took more extensive notes than they normally would at competition. Competition judges don't usually take copious notes (as opposed to testing judges.) They don't have time. Generally, they have some kind of system for keeping track of jumps, spins, other tricks etc, and for evaluating general skaing and presentation, and for ordering the performances, but the sheets they turn into accounting so that scores can be tabulated basically just have numbers on them.


Coaches and clubs test chairperson can contact judges and set up set up such critiques prior to competition or testing, or at other times. Sometimes before a competition, our club would buy ice and stage an exhibition so that the skaters could skate their programs under competition conditions. If you did something like that, you might be able to set up a judge's critique as well at the same time. Most judges I've known are glad to look at skaters and tell them what they think. It's ususally a good idea to have more than one do this though because they don't always agree. My child's coach always had a judge look at her before testing. She also talked to judges about how she competed. It's probaly easier to get that type of info from a judge if the coach knows the judge and when the skater reaches higher levels where the judge is more likely to have seen the skater enough to remember who they are. Maybe, your club could arrange for a judge (either actually on the pannel or not) to critique the actual performances for the skaters at the competition.


Again though, it's so important to keep in mind that this is a subjective, difficult sport with lots of competitors if you are a little girl, a big girl or a young woman. The competition can get fierce. In a regional competition with 120 intermediate skaters, four will get final round metals. If one wants to skate, winning can't be the only option. It's imperative to find other goals-doing something one loves, skating one's best, improving, the long haul-making it all the way to Senior or Junior or some other level goal, passing specific tests, supporting and having fun with friends at competition, even becomming a skating volunteer.


The best way to understand what's REALLY going on is to get involved. Although skating experience is preferred for new judges, it may not be absolutely necessary, particularly at lower judging levels. Judging schools are available. Volunteers might needed in the Accounting room where judges marks are collected and tabulated. There are fast tracks into judging for higher level competitve skaters. Clubs needs help with tests where volunteers can meet and interact with judges. Getting to know judges as people through volunteering really gave me great perspective into what's going on with them behind the scenes and I'd reccommend it highly to others. Convincing a kid that everyone's against them isn't going to insure their longevity in this sport. Again, from someone who's been there and done that, take all this for what it's worth and good luck.

__________________
Kindergarten is like the ocean; you don't want to turn your back on it.- Kindergarten Cop

WOW what a discussion. I am new to this forum and am surprised at some of the vitriol against judges.
My child has being doing low level competitions in Australia for a little over a year now, and some of the results have left me scratching my head. OTOH I have no idea what is technically correct, I just know what I like to see, so have no criticisms of the judges.
I was at one comp where one of the regular judges was just a spectator, the first time for her all year, and she talked about some of the flack she has put up with over the years. Most judges will talk to you and explain things if you talk to them civilly. At another comp, a friends' child was upset with the result so when I was collecting the result sheet I asked for feedback or advice. This was given freely.
For my child and I, we aren't worried about results, its about gaining experience in competing. When my child is (if it is still their dream) competing at a high level that is of national or international standing then we will worry about that.

PS Is this new code of points system applying in Australia?

I have to admit that you put it all in perspective.

If you get involved in your local skating club and start helping out at competitions, you can meet these individuals who volunteer their time to judge. They get up at early hours on Sats. & Suns. to do test sessions for hours and then give up work time, usually vacation time, to attend competitions and judge. Most do it for the love of the sport and enjoy seeing the skaters. (Granted, there are bad apples, but there are in any field, occupation, family, etc.) At lower level,(Basic skills), small competitions, many of the judges do not have their appointments but are trialing or are adult skaters, etc. (at least in my area.) However, once you hit prelim, etc. they tend to use qualified judges. Also, remember that these individuals are human, just as the skaters are, and they do make mistakes or miss a landing, etc.

I am surprised that the judges would not talk to the parent. I know that at a recent judges school held in CA the judges were told to really try to be accessable as much as possible. (Granted, the schedules and bathroom breaks can sometimes determine how much time they have.)

In my own family, we are all involved so we understand the judges a bit more- it doesn't mean we always agree with their placements. However, my skaters look at their own performance to see how they skate against themselves... did they try their hardest, improve on something they were working on, attain a personal goal. My eldest daughter once had a horrible personal skate and still ended up second. She realized that she had not succeeded just because the rest of the group had a bad day too. ANother time she skated perfectly and did not place because everyone else was "on" also. Learning from one's own performance is the most important thing at a competition.