My daughter was in a skating competition in Delaware and the judging was really out of line. In my daughter's freestyle program at the prepreliminary level she skated a clean program with two axels. She has done this program before in competition and done well at some major events. In the group of girls she skated against, four fell on their jumps, only a couple even attempted an axel and only one landed it. I am not a new parent to skating but was new to this particular competition. I saw the quality of skating of the others. They were not good at sit spins, and so forth. When she was done with her program our coach was so happy as she was and our entire group of experienced skating parents. We got the results, she was 11th out of 13th. All of us were completely shocked. The coach said to my daughter I wish I could tell you what to correct to make it better but there is nothing. I have nothing to tell you. You did everything I asked. My daughter said it was the best she had ever skated that program and I have to agree, as I have watched her in many competitions. Myself and our coach went to speak to the judges to find out what the problem was as they saw it with her program, we were refused the right to speak with them. My coach asked for the judge's comment sheets, we were told there were none. We went to the head of the skating competition and were only shown the scoring sheets which are posted and how they score which we already knew because another parent had already questioned their scoring. A similar thing happened to my daughter after she skated her compulsary program. Her coach was able to get hold of a judge after that one and the judge, right after the competition said they didn't remember what happened in the event and they didn't remember any of the skaters. This was after the event, not a week later. My daughter is suppose to go there and skate another event but my feeling is she would do just as well if she went out on the ice and did the hokey pockey, it won't matter what she does, we know where she'll place. Has this happened to other skaters as well and what do you do? I know I'll never have my daughter compete at this club again but there were also no answers. My coach finally spoke to a judge who said we judge on the presence on the ice, if the skater falls on a jump or does not do the jump perfectly we just count that as a non-event and there is no consideration given to the degree of difficulty of the program. That is as subjective as you get because by every standard my daughter had that presence along with the difficult elements. I have a daughter who was upset not because she didn't get a medal or because she had not skated well but as she said, "I know I skated better than they said," and that's whats upsetting. What if anything is a parent to do and how do you have your child compete in a sport that has no standard to judging at the local levels?

I'm sorry, but you lost me when you said your daughter did two axels in pre-preliminary!

Well, you and your daughter should be thankful, because you have learned a valuable lesson early. Figure skating is all about what your name is, who you know, and who's *** you kiss. Sure if you are the best skater that will sometimes reward you, but not always. There's nothing abnormal about the story I read. Judging isn't only shady at local levels- you'll find it all the way through to the Senior Olympics. It's the way it is, the way it's always been, and most likely the way it will always be. Is it fair? No, but such is life. All your daughter can do is skate the best she can and hope that is enough, and all you can do is stand behind her no matter where she places. This is why skaters who've grown up in this sport learn that what is most important is to skate your personal best, not where you place, cause you have no control over that. It's a reality of the sport, either that's acceptable for you guys, or maybe you should find a sport that isn't judged. Because this is just how it's gonna go. Also, I am NOT sure you can do two axels at pre-pre level, so perhaps points were taken off. But even if they weren't, that still wouldn't make the story abnormal or unusual for this sport.

The judges wouldn't even talk to you??? That is messed up. I think judges should always be available for questions, I mean that's how skaters improve. God, judges are such idiots, I bet most of them don't even give a damn either. They are so full of themselves... well I could sit here all day saying what I think about judges, but that's not gonna do anything. So my advice is skate for fun or don't skate at all.

Give me a break. You really think judges do what they do because they are conceited and don't care about the skaters? I know a number of judges. They are former skaters who wanted to stay involved in the sport and do something positive for it. Of course there are bad apples in every lot, but what an ignorant thing to say.

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

First off, to all of those who are questioning, in many (if not most) competitions, an axel IS allowed at the pre-pre level and may be repeated in a program.

Secondly, as fadedstardust said, skating is very political. We have a rivalry between two large towns (A and B) in our state. All of the skaters in town A know that when we go to B, we must skate perfectly in order to place higher than third. Town B's skaters know the same is true when they come to our rink. Sometimes, even out of state skaters have a better chance in town B than we do. It's just how it is.

Another problem is that judges must get to know you. If you went to a new club for the first time and there were no judges familiar with your daughter, that is another reason she may be placed lower. It takes awhile to get your presence known in this sport.

Just tell her to keep trying. It's not fair (and unfathomable that the judges would not talk to you), but that's often how this sport is. Not every competition is like this, but unfortunately it is not uncommon. (Call me cynical if you must, but it's what I've seen).

Tell your daughter good luck and keep her head up. A few more great skates in competitions and things might turn around.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

Tell your daughter, and remind yourself, that neither of you can control what the other skaters do, and neither of you can control what the judges think. All she can do is go out there and skate her absolute best and, provided she comes off the ice feeling pleased with how she skated, she's a winner, no matter where the judges placed her. That is all that matters. Placement is nice, but if you get too caught up in it, you ruin the sport for yourself, your skater, and the other skaters involved.

Mind you, all too often one comes off the ice thinking "Oh [expletive deleted], please can I do that again?", but that's another story!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

It also may well have been that the judges didn't have time to chat with you or your coach. Often at competitions, judges may only have a very few minutes break to catch some coffee, thaw out the feet a bit, use the washroom, etc. before they are due back out for another event. And if they were out of town judges who came in for the competition, they may be on a very tight schedule to get to the airport to catch their flight(s) home (especially in light of the lines at some airports for security checkpoints these days)

Another thing to remember, is that after a judge has seen several groups of a lower level event, in hindsight it can be hard to distinguish the skaters without a chance to grab their worksheet from the event.

I fully sympathise with you and your daughter on this one. Both myself and my daughter have had similar experiences where we've had a fantastic skate and been placed below others who were pretty obviously less strong.

My own daughter is going through a bit of a crisis right now, feeling despondent about her skating and thinking about giving it up. She's due to take her first set of NISA tests in December and we're hoping that'll give her a boost, especially after her recent disappointment at our club field moves competition.

In this competition she skated as my coach put it, perfectly. She was well up there with the top two skaters so we were totally surprised when she dropped to fourth place. She really didn't need this at this time when a boost is so needed, and couldn't understand how her great skate was pushed below someone's whose wasn't so great. We did query the competition secretary and it turned out that in fact one judge had placed her first, but this was no consolation to her.

I've just explained to her exactly what my coach says. At the end of the day she, like myself and like your daughter, must learn to skate for herself and as long as we all feel happy with the way we skated that should be what is important. Easier said than done though I know.

Nicki

The only other possibility besides those listed above is that if she did two axels and one wasn't in combination. I don't believe you can repeat the jump if it isn't in combination so if they were two solo axels, that might have given you a deduction. It is also possible that some of the judges may not have thought the jumps were clean. I do know that at this level, judges are "on the lookout" for this sort of thing, and even if they were clean, sometimes if they don't know you, you definitely don't get the benefit of the doubt. Other than that, I agree with all of the above. Helping your daughter to understand that it is a subjective sport and if you feel good about what you did, that's the best place to be in.

This may not apply in your daughters case but when my daughter was young I was most upset when after doing an axel and double salchow she was second last in a competiton where no-one else landed a jump higher than an axel. The coach told me the judges were biased the judges wouldn't talk to me. I read up on the rules and familiarised myself with the jumps. At the next competiton I videotaped everyone and wartched all jumps in slow motion. My daughter had the most cheated jumps rotating on her toepicks before the jumps and on the ice after the jumps.It was obvious it was her technique not the judges that was at fault. She won many competitions because she was artistic and had beautiful movement around the ice but when her jumps were properly assessed she lost. I changed coaches and later she changed disciplines to dance.

You know I was thinking about this very thing when I first saw this thread. You see a lot of axels and supposed doubles out there that are cheated at the beginning of the jump, but they are landed fine. The judges look for this and will score lower because the skater is not completing the revolution correctly. I'm wondering if this is going on with FAJ's daughter.

Kudos to you for taking the time to videotape those programs!!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

There's been a lot of good replies. Of course, the comment about the judges being idiots really burned me(I supposed years of trial judging and getting appointments means you're an idiot), but it was obviously from a very ignorant, and dare I say bitter, person so I'll let that go.
At pre-pre level, since there are so many skaters with basically the same elements, the judges are looking for the overall quality of stroking, speed, footwork (how much and how well), how many revolutions on spins...things like that. Perhaps your skater may have had a lower faster sit spin, but another skater had 10 revolutions to your daughter's 5. The 10 would be scored higher. There IS a standard, believe me, at every single level.
I've questioned my own results a few times, when I felt I should have placed higher and times when I've won and wondered why, but I've never even fathomed going after and questioning the judges in a competition. A test, perhaps I would, but never a competiton. I respect the judges and their placements.
Like others have said, your daughter must skate for herself, and take the good with the bad and the confusing! This honestly won't be the last time this may happen to her. As long as she loves to skate, she's doing ok.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I am going to go out on a limb here and say this, which applies to about 75% of judges:

Some judges are incompetent. Of course they past their tiral judging and got to judge at higher competitions, duh, there is a huge shortage of judges cause many people don't want to be involved in that world full of b.s. But for the most part they barely know how to rank skaters, and just put them in some random order.
Some other judges are senile. When I go to competitions I look up at the judges panal, I usually see old women. Old women who can barely see, and their brains don't quite process that fast, let me tell you. So I'm sure these judges miss A LOT during a competition and therefore rank the skaters incorrectly. I can rememebr watching a competition before, and one judge was looking at her sheet, i swear to god, like 50% of the time during a program. I don't know what that judge was doing, writing an essay or something, but the judge literally missed half the program, including some jumps, and even entire spins! It was impossible for that judge to judge the competition correctly based on what she saw. Sometimes I often see judges just seem to daydream through a program, kinda look around the rink, look at the audience, and then look at the skater when they feel like it. How is this justified???
So as you can tell I do NOT have confidence in most of the judges that judge these days. Now I know there are lotz of really good judges that are competent and do do their best, but I'm afraid the incompetent, senile judges outnumber the good ones. Therefore, figure skating juding is messed up. And until we get more judges that give a damn it will remain messed up forever. End of story.

Wow, so much hate for the judges, it's ridiculous. You don't want to be subject to judging, don't join a judged sport then. I can tell you that there is a much better chance that the judges are biased than that they are inconpetent. Most judges DO know what they are doing and talking about, believe it or not. I have much respect for judges, it's not an easy job and they still do it. And who cares if you get screwed out of one medal because the "judge wasn't looking". It. Happens. As long as it isn't a qualifying competition, it doesn't really matter anyway, and qualifying competitions do have great judges, so...there you go.

Indeed, fadedstardust is right. It takes several years of training to become a judge at even the lowest levels, and a great many years to become an international judge. Yes, many are elderly, which isn't too surprising, since many competitions happen mid-week and how many days holiday would you be prepared to give up to sit in a freezing cold ice-rink to judge a plethora of not-very-good small girls? So many, if not most, of the judges we see at mid-week competitions are retired people.

And yes, they are people. They are human beings, and as such, subject to the same pressures and temptations as the rest of us. They make mistakes. I know one judge who went for his break shaking his head and going, "Oh dear, I really did lose the plot for a bit back there!" as his marks had not tallied with the other judges' marks.

But as you go to more and more competitions, you get to know more and more judges. You get to know who likes what - the one who likes it if solo dancers use their arms to express the dance, and the one who marks you way down if your arms are better than your edges! You learn who is approachable and will tell you what you need to do to improve - or, indeed, who will talk you through a class they're not judging at that minute, and explain where the skaters are losing marks, and why. You learn who can be relied on to judge you fairly (i.e. better than your competition!!!), and who just doesn't care for your particular style. And so it goes.

I think proof positive that eosrulz' views are very much the minority comes from a letter in this quarter's Ice Link, the British Ice-skating body's publication. The letter is from an extremely popular judge who has been ill over the last few months, thanking everybody for the literally hundreds of get-well cards and other good wishes she has received. I think that just shows how most skaters view judges!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Who cares??? Every skater who has ever been cheated out of a medal, I'm sure. Obviously you were never a competitive skater, because skaters who work extremenly hard and devote lots of time to skating expect to get the results they deserve, and just because the competition isn't a qualifying competition doesn't mean the judges can do whatever the heck they want!!! There is NO excuse for a judge to be incompetent, bias, or lazy. It's unfortunate that there is a shortage of judges, which is the only reason why the lousy judges are still allowed to judge. And by the way, qualifying competition judges are the most bias judges of them all!!!

I ***HIGHLY*** doubt that.

Makes me wonder why you even skate at all....you can say anything you want but I doubt you're going to get anyone to agree with you!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I am a competitive skater, have been since I was little, and on the contrary, I know enough about competitions to know which ones matter and which ones don't. The ones that can send you to Nationals matter, the ones where you just get yet another shiny little trophy does not- those are meant to test your programs out and get a feel for the season at the higher levels. If you get worked up about every single competition, you'll never get anywhere. The key is to skate the best that you can, and be happy with it. If you're not, well..what are you going to do? Oh, yeah, become bitter, as examplified here. Sorry you were "cheated" out a medal. It's happened to all of us. And you know what? Most of us *don't* care. Do you think Michelle Kwan cares if when she was 6 she lost a pre-juv competition because someone wasn't looking at her for twenty seconds? Do you really think so? Come on. It DOESN'T matter. If you have such a disrespectful attitude, believe it or not, judges will hear about it, or will see it, and it won't bode well for you. I will never understand these negative attitudes. If you need a medal so bad join ISI, everyone medals there. And if you are a good enough skater with a good enough skate on that night, you WILL qualify at important competitions, whether the judges are biased or not.

I've started a "Judging Horror Stories" thread on the "On Ice - Skaters" forum.

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Sicne I know A LOT of judges in EOS section I should forward this thread to them and see how you do from now on in. Chances are that you would be getting a lot of dirty looks from a lot of people.

GROW UP. Yes, there are some judges who probably should move on but for the most part they are pretty fair. And if there is a shortage of judges why not become one YOURSELF.

This is the exact reason I gave up teaching high school...you probably critize every teacher and make our lives hell because you THINK you know what you are talking about.

You need a good slap upside the head to get some sense into ya

Obviously you are a skater who has lost so many times that you have just given up hope of getting anywhere...
And non-qualifying competitions do matter because they are competitions where you get a name for yourself so you WILL get the marks at qualifying competitions and move on. Obviously you aren't familiar with how the "system" works.


Umm, go ahead and forward it, you don't know who I am, remember?

Obviously you aren't going to agree with a thing I say because you ARE a judge, and you are just sticking up for your fellow judges. Plus you gave up your teaching career to pursure judging, so you don't want to face the fact that you gave up your life to pursue something that is corrupt and full of b.s. well don't worry, you'll face it someday, when you are over 65 and in the integrity vs. despair portion of your life you will realize your life has been pointless. Congratulations!

I AM NOT A JUDGE. Though I have done my prelim trial judging I do not judge. I am a teacher and continue to do so.

Yes, I don't know who you are but that could be solved if I had the time to do some digging.

But unlike yourself I have better things to do with my life.

And as they say...what goes around, comes around. One day when you grow up you will understand. I hope you keep all the posts you have posted and one day show them to your children so they can see just what kind of child you once were.

Say you don't mean that! Please! You are causing me serious psychological damage, and making me feel bad about myself! Is that what you want to be known for???

So, which GP assignments can we see you skating in? When's the last time I saw you on tv in the top five at an international event? You're doing a lot of talking for someone who has so few skating achievements that they have to obsess over one lousy lost competition, the fact that I don't care if I lose a competition is because I'm usually happy with my placements, of course if all you have are bad placements, you wouldn't know the difference. If I were having troubles with my competing, I certainly wouldn't blame it on the judges, the fact that you do implies you are the one having problems, not me. Have I been to Sectionals? Twice. Have I made it out? Not yet. Have I improved my results over the years? Yes, and I have met some GREAT judges who have given me tips on how to do so. If I thought I was never going anywhere I wouldn't still be spending what I spend yearly for training costs. I don't see how the fact that I don't blame bad skating performances on judges like you do shows that I've "failed a lot" or "lost hope", I just know that it's a JUDGED SPORT and the only thing you can change is yourself and the way you perform and skate. You clearly haven't learned that yet, and I'm fairly certain you won't get anywhere in the world, skating or otherwise, before you have, so I'm not too worried about you making TOO many judges' lives hell. How can you even keep skating with such a horrible outlook and attitude on the sport. You're suppose to love this, you know? It's supposed to make you happy, seeing responses like this is so sad.

Oh, and, you can make a "name for yourself" without being on the top step of the podium. If you are a gracious loser, rather than an immature infant who can't even take defeat and blames it on anyone other than themselves- that'll show. And trust me, you will make a name for yourself, and it won't be a good one. Unless you already have, which would explain why judges are "biased" against you. If I knew a skater thought I was a senile imbecile who doesn't judge anyone fairly, you can bet I wouldn't give them any gifts, either. I'm done with this conversation, but, you know, you can insult the judges, it won't raise your comp scores, and you can insult me, and pretend to know what my competition results are even though we aren't even in the same region, but it's not going to make you skate any better or raise your scores, either. I'm just trying to help you see that losing isn't the end of the world and that you can make it anyway if you only have the right attitude about it and grow from it. The reason why you started to insult ME for not whining on and on about the injustice of a lost competition is beyond me- what's the point of it exactly, does it really make you feel any better?