Doing forward crossovers, I was never taught to pick my foot up, only to pick my toepick up. Also I was taught that you push off with the outside of the left leg AND the inside of the right leg (and vice versa for the other direction)... So is that still crossovers or is that progressives?
Anybody have a vid of forward progressives pretty please?

I see this question here so often... if I won't forget, I'll take my video camera with me tomorrow, and do a close-up of the feet showing forward cross-overs and progressives in slow tempo. Can't guarantee that they'll be as beautiful as the skaters' on the posted links, though

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--renatele

You hit the nail right on the head here, Jen, which is where I think a lot of the confusion comes into play. Back progressives are NOTHING like back-crossovers, but they are EXACTLY like front progressives (at least the way front progressives SHOULD be - with no crossed over of the foot AT ALL). Front progressives can LOOK like front cross-overs, but they are not the same, especially in dance.

I really wonder about teaching beginner cross-overs with such an obvious cross-over. I don't remember learning it that way. It is so mechanical. Then I wonder how on earth the student can get from that mechnical cross-over (with very little knee bend) to a nice forward cross-over with pushes under and nice bent knees. No wonder there is confusion about what is really supposed to be happening!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

This is how: Cross over without picking up the crossing foot at all. This forces bent knees and an under push. After that exercise is mastered, the crossing foot can be picked up as you stroke and it follows the same trajectory across as if it were not being picked up. Nice smooth progressives are the result.

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But do people actually teach these two-footed cross-overs? (Yes I have done them, many times, good for working on power, too).

Actually nice, smooth crossovers are the result. Progressives do not cross!!

I guess this is why skating is best demonstrated visually than audially!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I am relieved to read this, I was worrying I had been taught wrongly. I learned that it is more like a little run on ice, and that the foot must not cross in the process. It worried me reading here that it was basically a variety of crossover.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

So... Would it be sort of like a pumping motion like half swizzles in a way? Cuz if it is, that's what we call chassee and we were taught those before we were taught crossovers.

"Progressive" is a shortened word for what was originally described as a "progressive run". My first teacher taught me that a progressive run consisted of three steps - for example, in the 14-step end pattern - LFO, RFI, LFO. I'm not sure if other skaters agree with the former; but anyway, a crossover is always just two steps, LFO, RFI. Crossovers are almost always slower; progressive runs are almost always faster.

In advanced crossovers, the outside foot does not cross as such, but the strong underpush, extension and toe point of the inside foot gives the appearance of the feet crossing. As crossovers are generally done more slowly, there is more time to do a significant extension on the inside foot. There is still an extension in a progressive run, but it is much shorter and quicker.

The important thing when doing fast progressive runs is to progress the body weight evenly, keeping down into the ice. The outside foot should always be under the hips and not in front of them. If you clomp one foot down in front of the body, the result will be jarring, and you won't progress evenly. At one point, my coach made me do crossovers/runs placing the outside foot NEXT TO the inside foot (not in front at all) because when you have good speed the body carries forward on the underpush - by the time the outside foot is really carrying the body, the inside foot is well behind.

There are a number of threads on this site which address the fact that an "advanced crossover" is really a "crossunder" = just do a search for "crossunder".

You have to work your crossovers to get a good progressive run. And it does take a couple of years to get really good crossovers.

However, it is helpful to learn "baby crossovers" before moving onto "advanced crossovers" - a bit like learning how to stand up, before you can run ....

I do. I teach this exercise all the time. My own (former) coach never taught it, but DD learned it from a Russian coach and DH and I both liked it and were pleased with the results.

dooobedooo addresses your next comment rather nicely, IMO.

I would add that at some fairly early point, the judges are looking for "progressive style crossovers" in MIF.

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I LOVE the two-footed crossover exercise. I use it to warm up every time I'm out there. And I do a two-footed cross, then repeat the underpush until I run out of steam.

This is great that you teach this - nice exercise!

This is true, and herein lies the confusion in this discussion (which i don't know how to resolve) -- being that there are progressive-style crossovers and progressives which are two different animals (that look hauntingly alike to the naked eye!! )

Actually I think when this really comes up is in dance - some judges (moi) are picky about seeing actual progressives in dance whereas others may not be... it also depends on the angle from which you are watching whether you can pick up a true progressive vs someone doing more "progressive-style crossovers" in a dance (it also depends on the level being tested).

Great discussion.

To Sessy: Nope. Chasses are yet ANOTHER animal!! (which I believe come in two types: Chasses and slide chasses).

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Back progressives seem to be taught differently by different coaches. One dance coach taught me that the outside free foot comes down in line with (ie. directly behind) the skating foot. Another coach (just as good, maybe a regional thing) taught that the outside free foot comes down slightly to the side (and behind) the skating foot.

I've also had different coaches ask for different types of backwards cross-behind step.

If it becomes an issue, the only thing is to ask the lead judge in your area ... and do it how they like it

Don't know whether anybody has any further light to shed ....?