I've been reading back posts about pre-bronze tests and in one of them this was a big issue on crossovers or progressives.

WHAT is a progressive? I got that it was a more advanced crossover, but I can't tell what it is. Can they be done forward and backward?

Can someone explain the difference to me? Videos would be awesome!

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-Jessi
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For anyone taking PSA rating exams, this is a question that could possibly be asked!

The difference between a crossover and a progressive is that:

a CROSSOVER physically crosses the foot over by almost stepping over to transfer your weight from one leg to the other. The transfer is made after crossing your foot all the way over your skating foot, whereas

a PROGRESSIVE actually progresses across the ice for almost a smoother transfer of weight, which begins on the ice and in front of your skating foot (hence the name).

Progressives are used a lot in dance and gradually you'll begin doing them in place of the basic cross-step crossovers that beginner skaters are taught. The same goes for backward. You'll eventually become skilled enough to eliminate that push-lift-cross-step motion of backward crossovers and work your way up to a more fluid push-cross movement.

Actual back progressives in dance, however, are totally different from the forward dance progressives. I'll try and find you some video examples here...

Hope this cleared it up for you! Good luck!

No video from me..but if you have any tapes of Paul Whylie - his forward crossovers were more like progressives. A progressive - you put your foot down on the ice along side your other foot and slide your foot over ON THE ICE. Also you push just as much with the other foot. You get more power from progressives because the pushes are equal. I can only do it in one direction and have found on the lower level dances, they let you get away with a crossover as long as it's not too steppy looking and you are at least getting some power from the under push.

j

Back progressives:
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/bk...s_exercise.AVI

**this was an exercise where I was supposed to change the depth of knee bend on each one (high, med, low, repeat), so ignore that part. Watch the feet--they don't cross. The inside foot does give a push though w/ the outside edge as it slides forward off the ice.

Ice dancers do back progressives to match their partner's legs doing forward progressives. Also if side by side w/ partner, no legs pushing to the side (ala back crossovers), which would wipe partner out!

I don't have a clear video of fwd ones--to the untrained eye they look like normal crossovers. But the free foot strikes the ice *before* the feet are crossed, then both feet are on the ice while the cross-through happens. Probably someone else has a video that will make it easier to understand.

All skaters should eventually make the switch from fwd crossovers to progressives--they're more powerful & present a nicer line.

Well, I found something that might help you from youtube:
Here's a good example of more advanced backward crossovers, what you ultimately want to strive for:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GJpdWQLdle4

Here's an example of typical beginner crossovers, but the coach also shows more advanced ones (which you are again striving for) toward the end:
http://sports.expertvillage.com/vide...ce-skating.htm

Okay- so I think if I understand this right I
a) totally don't understand how a forward progressive works. (I can't see how you don't pick up the foot to move it over while going forward.)
b) might already be doing backward progressives. (A crossover would be like the ISI learning style of picking your foot up and putting it down, but a progressive pulls it across without leaving the ice? Or is that still a crossover?)

I couldn't get all the videos to load, because I don't have flash- but I'll watch them at home on a different computer.

Thanks for the explanations!

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

It's still a crossover, just an advanced one. Unless someone has specifically taught you back progressives, I'm sure you're not doing them--They're NOT intuitive & they feel really awkward when first learning them.

No, a back progressive (if were talking ice dance now) is not anything like a back crossover. Bear with me here: Let's say you were gliding backwards on your right bent leg with your left foot extended in front. To do the progressive you would switch your weight to your left bent leg while extending your right foot in front then switch your weight back to your right bent leg while extending your left foot in front. It's not nearly as complicated as it sounds and a heck of a lot easier to teach in person. It's got 3 steps (right, left, right). Anyway...

You're right about a back crossover being similar to the way they're taught in ISI. In fact, kids who are competing at the Beta level have to do their crossovers this way and are not permitted to do the more advanced crossover where the foot remains on the ice. (Doing so calls for deductions...). So, no - a back crossover where the feet remain on the ice is not a progressive, but a more advanced crossover instead. Unless you're doing ice dance, you are not doing a back progressive, but a more advanced back crossover!

For the forward progressive, you must have deep knee bend and good knee action. Skating with "peg legs" makes it nearly impossible to do a progressive crossover, which you'll see when you are able to watch the videos later. I always emphasize deep bend when teaching my students these...

http://icepartnersearch.com/showbio....1d4518a8ecf1c2

This couple has nice fwd progressives--it's the first thing on the video. As I said, you may not see a huge difference; to the untrained eye you may not quite know what to look for.

When they do them slowly, you can see that their free foot hits the ice still uncrossed, then the other foot pushes through/under for a very strong push. It happens very fast.

And yes, hugely important to have deep deep knee bend to make it really work.

One of my favorite ice dances and the one I'm working on now, the Paso Doble, has great examples of a forward and backward progressive. You'll want to watch the girl's feet for these...:

** Forward progressive comes in at 0:45 - watch the deep knee bend!
** Backward progressive comes in at 0:50

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oZaGYhcimUw

Okay, so I have a "more advanced" (but not advanced!) back crossover. I have never done, or judging by the videos- seen-, a progressive IRL.

So here's a new question- are progressives ever necessary in freeskate? Or is it all about ice dance?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I clearly have one of those "untrained eyes" because I didn't see the difference of a crossover/progressive AT ALL! However, that was a beautiful dance! Thanks for the video.

Okay- now I see it! Wow, that push must be really hard to get. I think i'm sticking to step over crossovers for awhile!

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

As you progess in doing Moves, (which you'll have to pass if you want to test freestyle) judges are going to want to see more progressive-like crossovers - not so much keeping your foot on the ice but making sure you get as much push from the under cut as you do from the cross over.

j

I nearly fell over when I saw this! I used to skate down at Pines Ice Arena, even took a few makeup group lessons from him! He's a tough cookie- but a good coach!

Hahaha, glad to have made your day!

You'll never have to do back progressives unless you do ice dance--or maybe synchro....

The fwd ones, as others have said, do become what the judges look for as you progress through moves. They look a lot nicer/smoother anyway, so you'll want to work on them just for general program skating too. You can tell the freestyle skaters who've worked on them or taken dance.

I so much prefer forward progressives to forward crossovers. I feel about a thousand times more stable doing them and know that I'm using my edges and pushes properly. I learned them in a power skating class and remembered thinking, "WHY didn't I learn crossovers like this from the start?"

To me, it feels like the difference between doing an ISI back crossover and a more advanced back crossover -- it's the same difference in power and the same scissoring action with the pushes.

I hope that progressives are allowed ont he PB test, because I have no intention of not doing them when I test eventually, LOL!

By all means; the judges will love that.

OK I need some help on backward progressives - everytime I try to do them with anything like good posture and knee bend I catch a heel and go down. ANy tricks to keep the weight right on the blade?

Lyle

Keep your hips forward with your knees slightly bent. Problems arise from arching your back while trying to push the hips forwards, so focus on pulling your bellybutton into your spine.

And you *must* point your toes as you draw the foot back in, or the heel will come down & nail you. I try to think of having the toepick hit the ice first--not going to happen, but it keeps my toes pointed instead of relaxing/flexing the foot.

thanks SynchroSk8r114! this is a useful rescource. I am currently taking my back crossovers to pieces ans re-learning them, this a huge help.

I'm learning back progressives too, I can't seem to eliminate that lovely scraping sound you get from the toe pick when you place the free foot behind the skating foot. any tips?

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Loving it, Loving it, Loving it!!!!!

yeh that RRIIIPPP sound when my heel hits is kinda scary!

SynchroSk8r114 -> you know that's it! This may sound odd but I think that perhaps I'm bending my knees too deeply - sure it might look better but I think that I lose my control and strength.

So what is this with good posture? - standing up straight just ain't natural!
Lyle

Hey I that's what I do!!! I didn't even know that those particular "cross-overs" had a name. It's probably because my coach is a freestyle turned ice dancer, he taught me progressive cross-overs. I find them easier to do then picking up your foot to cross over. Because both feet are on the ice almost the entire time, you can change direction faster. I can't imagine doing the cross-over portion of the MITF test without it.


BlackManSkating

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Nope. backwards Dance Progressives are a totally different beast than back crossovers performed without picking up the feet. They are also a totally different skating move than the "pick your foot up and over" early version of a back crossover often taught in ISI or Basic Skills.

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