I skate, in Canada and test (prelim skills, jr bronze dance (passed with goods, thankyou), and am working on preliminary freeskate) I went to an adult competition last year to support a friend and maybe to get an idea of competing myself. I see another lady who tries a camel spin for a rev, and who couldn't hold her spiral elsewhere in the program, a layback (I think) that goes for 1.5 revolutions and a corkscrew spin that had maybe 3 revs and something that I think was a flip but really her feet never left the ground and the time was endless with scratchy SLOW stroking inbetween.

I was embarrassed. It's easy enough to say "oh good for you, you did it" but really I wanted to say "oh my god, where is your basic skating?" What on earth was she doing attempting a camel spin when she couldn't do a basic one foot spin? Why was she emulating a flip when her waltz jump was tiny?

I skate on a lot of sessions, and I see adults, in the centre, practicing their spins and jumps, but it is rare that I see an adult go flying around in russian stroking. They're happy with half speed tricks but won't put the speed into them.

Sure, adults can ask to be taught these things and coaches oblige, and I'm sure that good coaches try to reinforce the basics and if adults don't listen the coach shouldn't sign the competition papers. The lady that I saw at the competition, the one thing the bunch of us in the stands wanted to know was who her coach was, not so much why the lady was skating so weakly because we thought the coach was crazy for letting the lady out there.

I have read this thread with interest. Let me throw something out there...

I think one of the things about beginning adults has to do with perception. If you see a 7 year old tottering around the ice with no real basics, your mind thinks - awww, how cute. If you see a 30 year old out there tottering around, your eyes see something wrong (because an adult should not be tottering around) and your brain processes it as a problem. Realistically, there is no difference between a 7 year old learning their first few steps and a 30 year old learning their first few steps.

Where the difference comes, though, is that the 7 year old has no fear and the 30 year old does. Believe me, that makes all the difference in the world.

I do not advocate adults ignoring the basics - I think MIF's are a great thing - but you have to give adults a bit of slack. More power to them for getting out there and trying.

(I will admit a bit of chargrin about adult skaters claiming to own moves that they are years away from being proficient at - or worrying that others are winning when they aren't, because they don't have those basics - however, to each his own, and if it makes them happy, so be it. It happens with kids, too - I got kicked by a competitor - wearing skates - once because I had beaten her too many times - I still have the scars 30 years later.)

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

And some want to keep working on the elements that still need work (and don't they all, to one degree or another?) and ALSO start working on something new or different every so often.

I've been thinking about this topic alot. And ya know, I think adults have a different perspective to skating than children and most coaches because they HAVE to. Seriously, we fit skating into our lives. Our lives don't center around skating. Think about it, most "kiddlies" skate ALOT and get many lessons in a week. Many kids are home schooled even. Coaches, for the most part, have grown up in this atmosphere. Adult skaters, at least this adult skater, moves heaven and earth to make time to skate each week. I've been known to juggle like crazy to protect my skating time. And, as much as I'd like to take many lessons in a week I get one. Family issues are always first. My lesson and ice time are cut back for activities for my family. Because I have to focus on skating in a different way than a child, I come to the sport with a different frame of mind than a child. I take this sport seriously, but I know it's for fun and has a certain place in my life. Adults want to play in a part in their learning process, we are adults, and do come to this sport with past experiences about who we are and how we learn. A good coach will hear this and work with their student. Adults do have a "look" I guess, but bigger learning bodies do look more awkward than a tiny little child learning. What looks cute on a child looks looks sorta scary when an adult does it. Both learners have the same goal however, to learn. As a coach I would think I would look for a reliable student, works hard at skating, is self reliant, eager to push themselves, and who is eager to be part of THEIR skating. As a coach I think it's important to listen and watch your students, you can learn from your students as well as them from you.

Chico

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"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."

I don't suppose that it occurred to you that this skater, like any skater, is in the process of learning these elements, and that the competition wasn't exactly intended to be her Olympics? Obviously I haven't seen the skater in question, but she sounds at about the American Pre-Bronze level. Well, I am a Pre-Bronze skater who has small jumps (but no flip yet), a camel that I can hold for 2 revs at most, and an unpredictable scratch spin. I'm working on these elements. They're not perfect - I wouldn't even say they are fully mastered - that's why I'm Pre-Bronze and not Bronze or Silver. And yes, my stroking can be scratchy at times and occassionally slow - and about half my practice time is devoted to stroking and moves, what you would describe as basic skating.

The thought that someone might be embarrassed for all of adult skating by watching me compete strikes me as little out of touch with reality, not to mention insulting. I, along with probably every other adult skater here, is not trying to represent all of adult skating - we're out there having fun and working to meet our goals, whatever they may be. That "embarrassing" woman you saw might surprise you at her next competition.

And I also don't suppose it occurred to you that maybe the elements you mentioned might normally be better in her practices than in competition. Wow, getting nervous and not doing as well in comp as in your practices - that never happens to anyone, does it?

There is a lot of "open" freestyle ice during the fall/winter months here, and I have skated with adult skaters quite a bit. The first thing I notice, and I feel BAD for this, is that they get out of the way even when you don't need them to. I wish adults weren't so self-effacing, they've been made to feel as though they are in the way, and they now assume that to be the case and that makes me feel bad, as though I just shouldn't set up a jump on the same side of the ice as them so I don't make them feel like they ought to move. But I think that's very kind, to leave room for others. Rarely do I see the little kids get out of the way...they're the ones I can't stand on freestyle ice cause they just stand around in the lutz corners and talk.

However, while most adult skaters are wonderful to skate along with, the ones that really aren't are the ones that have weak basics and are doing things they're not ready for. For example, someone who cannot stop properly but who is setting up a very weirdly shaped salchow in the middle of the ice is probably going to be a hazard. It's the people that go *so* slowly into a jump that they are standing still that can be a problem, if they are in the very middle of the ice for a long period of time. The strong adult skaters are never in anyone's way because they have enough strength in a stroke to go around someone else if need be, enough security in their stops to prevent a collision, etc. Clearly, if I see someone going really slowly or practicing newly-learned 3-turns (or even jumps) on the blue lines or corners, I will go another direction and not get in their path because that's my duty as the more accomplished skater. However if someone is in the middle of the ice doing jumps along with the rest of us, then they are telling me they're proficient enough to do so, and I expect them to have enough security in their basic skills to prevent from endangering us both if a collision situation were to arise, and also to be moving fast enough that I can set up my jump 10 seconds after them and not land on the second half of their 3-turn. Yes, I absolutely agree that one must start somewhere and don't get me wrong, I know the first jumps won't be fast or perfect or whatever, but if you have strong enough basics to learn jumps, then you can do your part in preventing any accidents, and you if you're ready to jump you should be able to go fast *enough* as to not be standing still. Anyone standing still in the middle of freestyle ice will get collided into- in fact it's prohibited in most rinks. At mine you're not even supposed to go back to look at your jump tracings for risk of obstructing people's jumping paths (and it's a pain in the butt). It's not about going fast or doing perfect jumps, it's about being a proficient enough skater not to hurt anyone, starting with yourself. I've seen people who can barely balance on the ice do waltz jumps in the middle of busy freestyle sessions. It might be fun for you, but it's not fun for the 25 people who are trying not to crash into you. THAT is what the "rude" skaters complain about concerning adults, and usually the only reason they don't lump the very little kids in that complaint as well is because the little kids can sadly be expected not to know any better or realize the danger they're causing. An adult is supposed to be somewhat mature, and know their own limitations and what is safe to do in a busy environment like a freestyle session, and the ones that get talked about are the ones that choose to ignore it.

There's definitely a "tradition" aspect to it in my book, a "step by step" that starts with basics and only progresses when you are ready, but since most people don't seem to see that side of things that way at all, maybe some of you can appreciate the security aspect of it, because it really is an issue, although clearly it is a minority of skaters I am talking about. I don't actually meet many adult skaters who want to skip over basics- in fact most work their basics adamantly and I admire their dedication and attention to detail. But this is all for the sake of argument since this is the topic du jour, and I have come accross a couple of skaters like the dangerous ones I mentioned above. And no, those are not the beloved ones at my rink.

Well, at the risk of making me look like a bad/weird person, no, I can't really say I've done anything in my life just for fun, I guess. I started dancing because of skating, and eventually I became good enough to do some shows as a soloist with a (smaller, aka not NYC Ballet) company and I considered making it my career only to realize I couldn't have both- so now I just do it to better my skating, if it didn't help it, I would probably quit because I'd see no point in carrying on with it if I don't do anything with it. There are other things I'm interested in such as songwriting/singing, but the reason I keep on doing it is to eventually record cd's and maybe send it around to small labels, or play in some coffeehouses- I don't care about the money, but it'd be nice to at have people liking my music. I don't think I'd be motivated to do it if the tapes were just going to sit around on my bedroom floor. I'm a goal-oriented person. Without a goal in mind that brings about some form of result, whether it be achievement (skating) or sharing of expression (music and writing), then I find no point in it. But I know that is just my personality. I guess in being this way though, while I leave room for and am trying desperately to understand other people's ways of going about things, I don't really relate/understand, as I'm sure few people can understand my being incapabale to do anything unless it's to excel at it. But I just find no joy in doing something if I don't attempt with my entire being to be the best at it. Which in NO WAY means I'll reach it. But it's an impulse stronger than me to reach for it, that's what keeps me interested in whatever I am doing. I'm not sure what part of my upbringing made me this way, but that's just the way I am.

You've summed up my feelings from the last competition I helped run. "Embarrassing" is a word that defines lots of these ladies and men who go out there and try to compete with programs too advanced for their abilities. I don't blame them, I blame their coaches for letting them do it.

Here we go again, I am working at the Halloween Classic and I know most of the pre-bronze and bronze competitors will be out there doing the oh so familiar one-revolution camel and sit spins and straight legged, arms up to the ceiling crossovers. I call them medal collectors. There are always 2 or 3 people in a group and so everyone gets a medal, it just depends on what color it is. How sweet. What grade are these people in mentally? 4th grade?

What some of you highly defensive adult skaters don't realize, and you constantly compare yourselves with kids, is that they work years to accomplish what you all expect within months. You have delusions of grandeur if you think anyone but you enjoys watching these adults scrape around clumsily on the ice in those expensive dresses and boots that are well beyond their skating level. The audience is just hoping it will be over soon.

Kids have to earn their programs and achieve a certain level before they go out there, but adults aren't held to the same standards and just expect they can compete with very little under their belts to support them because its all for fun. The truth of the matter is, it is painful to watch.

I know a woman who skates who cannot move out of anyone's way in freestyle sessions because she is so weak, unstable and deathly afraid of falling, but sure enough is competing and doing all the "big stuff" in her program. She is dangerous in f/s sessions and people are afraid of being near her. Camel spin when she can't to a one foot or even a proper 2 foot spin. She has competed several times, for that matter and probably has more medals than the girls who have been skating since they were 5 and are on fs4 and she brags about it! She tells everyone she came in "2nd" when she really came in last place because there were only 2 people in her group. But at work, she tells people all about the skills she "has" and the medals she has won and all the shows she's been in. Gag me. She even gives people skating advice but she has no measure of proficiency in her own basic skills. So this is what bugs me!

Fadedstardust, if you are only talking about a "few" adult skaters, then why the long missives on them? I know a "few" kids who are totally thoughtless and get in everyone's way.

If it's bash the adult skater time, I'm outtie. I don't know why I'm arguing, as I'm the type of adult skater who hangs out in the corners, so as to stay out of the way.

Excuse me, but I think you are missing the point about competition here. As you say, the classes are often small enough that everybody gets a medal - but that's not why we enter. We enter because last time around the judges gave Jemima 0.2 better than they gave us, and we want to see whether all our hard work this winter has paid off, and whether the judges will put us ahead of Jemima. They probably won't, as Jemima will also have worked hard and improved every bit as much as we have!

Oh, come on, who watches adult skaters apart from their peers? The odd spouse, parent and even more occasional coach, perhaps, but other than that, nobody is interested. And that's as it should be. We aren't out there for an audience, we're out there to perform for ourselves, and for the competition. Adult competitions very seldom have kiss-n-cry areas, we just get off the ice and are putting our guards on while are marks are read out.

Now, I don't know where you come from, but I can assure you that here, kids are on the ice competing when they can barely skate! I know two 4-year-old girls who are to compete in this year's Winter Festival, and both can just about stroke, do a shaky spin, and maybe a tiny 3-jump. But so what? They're out there, they're having fun, and they're part of a group of older girls who are helping them with their skating. One of them, I gather, is to take her Level 1 Compulsory Dances next week - her teacher must think she has a good chance of passing.

Can't, not won't. Be fair, if you fall over, you'll bounce back up. If I do, I'm risking a broken hip, or at best a serious attack of sciatica. And excuse me, but I was practising my Russian stroking this morning, and it scares me - er - witless, as I go far faster than I'm comfortable with. But I do it. Even though I'm probably the slowest skater around....

When you are middle-aged and fat, you don't skate fast. But why does that mean you can't skate, compete against people who are in your age group and at your level of learning, and generally have fun and keep fit? Honestly, some of you younger ones are coming over as total sports fascists, saying that your sport should be reserved for the young and athletic. Well, dears, I have news for you - you may be young and athletic now, but in 30 years' time you'll be in my position. Except, of course, that you'll be better skaters than I will ever be, since you started when you were kids, and I was in my 40s!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Since there seems to be so much about embarrassing adult competitors I'd just like to point out to all non-UKers that had they seen the standard of skating at the British Adult Championships last month they may think again. Certainly in the elementary free skating classes every single skater was at a very good standard.

Also having passed my NISA level 2 elements and free tests last year (so yep I am under no delusion that I cannot do a decent sit spin as both judges complimented me on how good it was along with the jumps I had to do for the test), I have now moved up to the Level 2 and over class for our club's open competition. I can assure you that this is a very difficult class as the standard is so extremely high. Definitely no mediocre camel spins, sit spins or anything else for that matter and being the first and only adult of my coach to compete, even she was somewhat surprised to see just how high a standard the competitive adult skaters are here in the UK.

Nicki

AND in the Intermediate!

I wish my coach would look - he hasn't even been to Bracknell for years, and probably shares some people here's view of adult competitions. But I have told him that the standard rises every year (which it does) and that he is to be just as rigorous with us as he is with kids at that level, or if we were testing rather than competing, and I think it may have sunk in.... hope so.....

Mind you, I am one of the "embarrassing" adults, and Nicki isn't! She is a very good skater indeed..... but I still have fun, even if I can neither spin nor jump (but then, I don't compete freestyle, only artistic!).

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

First off, why are you working the Halloween Classic if you OBVIOUSLY don't want to be there?? Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stay home!
Second, a lot of adult skaters, including myself, have already said we DON'T compare ourselves to the kids. We don't have 10 year old bodies that can whip out doubel axels and we know it. No delusious of grandeur here!
If it's THAT painful for you to watch, again, STAY HOME. What a horrible attitude.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Thank you, Mrs. Redboots and Stormy! Your responses to hankykeely summed up exactly what I wanted to say.

hankykeely, maybe you shouldn't watch my program - Pre-Bronze. In fact, if that's the way you look at beginning adult skaters, perhaps you shouldn't watch any of the no-test or Pre-Bronze CM or FS. Because everyone at that level looks the way you described. No, we don't want to stay that way forever, but how else are we supposed to improve if we don't actually "do" the skills? According to you, I shouldn't even be practicing a camel or sit spin or any jumps b/c, God forbid, I might *only* get 1 rev on my spins the first few times I try them and maybe my loop jump might be a bit cheated. Gee, it might take me 3 or 4 months or more to get a camel spin that looks reasonable and lasts for a couple of revs and can be used in combo with a sit spin. I guess adult skaters shouldn't even bother skating, since it obviously takes us way too long to perfect our elements, right?

I've been skating for 3 years - that means that 3 years ago, I was in Basic 1 learning how to stop. There's no way I'm going to skate like someone who has been skating for 8 or 10 years or more. My coach puts me out in Pre-Bronze b/c that's my skating level. It may not be a skating level you approve of, but that's where I am, and the same applies to every skater at that level.

Edited to add that I think it's extremely unprofessional and offensive of you, hankykeely, as a volunteer at a comp that begins today, that some of us on this board are competing in, to post mean-spirited comments on the Internet about skaters and skating that you "expect" to see there. We don't need all that negativity - not that I care what you think of me, but anybody competing would feel uneasy knowing that an official with the comp is out there ready to insult them in a public forum.

Gregyoshi said:
"I'm a young adult skater and I have even younger friends. They think adults are, for the most part, A JOKE! They talk behind their(our) backs. They mock them/us. They think adults are just in the way on the ice. Is it fun to be perceived this way? Others could mind their own business, but honestly the feeling I get from most other younger skaters is negative toward adults. So overall I guess my reasons for talking about this is out of concern. I wouldn't be so content just saying to yourselves that the adults can do what they want and others should butt out because the rinks and organizations out there are catering to the kids and the parents, not the adults."

My response:
Well, now we finally established where you are coming from with this whole discussion. I remember when I was a kid at the dance studio watching adult classes and wondering why the adults were doing dance classes when it was clear they were never going to be on Broadway. They moved slower than the kids and weren't nearly as flexible. But they still had fun, and even performed in the yearly show! As an Adult over the age of 30, I understand it now, and so will you and your young friends.

I am on a Synchro team for the first time in my life at the age of 31. I had a coach once who told me that she couldn't understand how an adult could ever learn Synchro and that you had to learn Synchro as a kid. My response? I changed coaches. I don't want someone who doesn't believe in me. I work hard at what I do (injuries aside).

On the flip side, I had another coach who worked with me for over 4 yrs. With his guidance, I learned salchows, loops, flips, and lutzes and all the loop combos. He got me to do camel-back sit combos and centered scratch spins. He was at the boards for most of my competitions, including 1 adult Nationals. He also got me thru many tests, including [standard] Pre-juv moves, Bronze FS, pre-pre FS, and [standard] bronze dances. If my technique was so bad as an adult, then how come I could pass all those tests in 5 yrs, all on the first try? The only reason I am no longer with this coach is because I had a life situation where I had to move so I am not in the same city. Otherwise, I am certain that he and I would be working on the axel & other higher skills. I am glad there are coaches out there who believe in their adult skaters. We can achieve if given a chance.

AGREED!

Skating can be enjoyed at any age. If someone doesn't like to watch adult skating, then they shouldn't come watch!

Heylo peeps, sounds like a bit of a debate is going on! Well, I'm going to share my opinion aswell! I personally think adult skaters are really cool! (I'm only 15!) I like watching them have their lessons, and you can see their progression from one week to the next. It's sort of like an inspiration, like "If she can do it, then so can I!". Practise makes perfect, and nobody can do a spin straightaway, adults are more afraid of falling, as they are more delicate, shall we say? If you knew that when you fall, you had a possibility of breaking a bone that puts you out of a hobby you love for months perhaps, would you not do things in a more calm fashion?

Anyway, Adult skaters rock regardless of age and ability.

Just a few thoughts....

Don't blame my coach for letting me go out there....I'm the one who makes the decision to compete, I don't need permission. One of the luxuries of being adult is being more in charge of my life.

I didn't expect to be competitive after a few months of learning to skate. It actually took me a long, long time of several hours of skating a week to get there. Years actually. My hard work is not obvious to you, sorry about that.

I have the same responsibility as you to attempt a well balanced program. Some of the elements are mastered, some not. Elements in progress are in there to insure that I work on them in the context of a program, and not just in isolation. The decision to leave an element in or not depends on the percentage of consistency in practice. Rather than moving up a level a year like most kids, I may be at a level for several years. Maybe forever!

Just like all levels of skaters, I don't always do my best under the pressure of competition. The side by side pair spin combo I saw on TV this week at Skate America was pretty darn embarrassing........for them. A few senior level programs I saw at regionals this year were tough to watch too....

One of the best lessons I ever learned as an adult is that I can only embarrass myself. Learning this has made my life much easier.

Don't judge all adult skating by what you see at your local comps. I take my daughter to Adult Nationals whenever I can. She is a lovely skater herself, and is always amazed by the level of skating that can be seen there.

I admit I know some adults that are a bit delusional about their level of skating. They insist they have elements that are not even close. I don't understand their need to exaggerate their accomplishments. But please don't generalize that we adults are all that way. Not true.

You know, I was going to pick out some of the more offensive parts of a few of the messages here and reply specifically to those parts, but I've changed my mind. I'll post a generic response to those who find crappy adult programs to be embarrasing or offensive: That is the most juvenile and rude thing I've ever read here about adult skating. You should be ashamed of yourself. Jeez Louise, so much for tolerance and understanding.

<sarcasm> I find it so painful to watch when young adults embarrass themselves by posting online.</sarcasm>

But even more to the point: We don't give a flying flip if you find it painful to watch. In fact, I'm inspired to get every crappy adult skater I know to start competing in pre-bronze!

And by the way, there is an assumption that defending some adults who attempt "out of their league" elements in a program means we think it's okay to ignore the established learning sequence or don't value mastery of the basics. That's just plain ol' faulty logic.

Why? Because it's fun to try new things!!!

Perhaps this skater is like me. I can do a camel...........but I can't do a forward scratch. I can do a sit...........but I can't do a forward scratch. I don't find a basic one foot spin basic at all. You will never find one in my program. I do a layback from a back spin for the same reason. If I had to have a decent one foot spin before progressing, I'd have one "kind of" spin to my name..........and wouldn't be having fun with a flying camel.

I can do a huge flip (Ok, could before my surgery). My waltz jump is tiny. It will always be tiny. I don't like that jump, and for some reason it is difficult for me. A flip and lutz is much easier in my book.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. If I had been put in a normal progression of things box, I'd still be pre-bronze. I remember a coach years ago telling me we were going to work on things above my level..........because then the things at my level would become easier. In my case, there is some truth in that.

Jeeper creepers...don't volunteer.

I volunteered at the Adult Nationals this past April at Lake Placid since my club was host (and I live 300 miles away in another state so I was there because I wanted to be there).

I watched most of the competitons as well and there were a lot of spectators for the Bronze IV men competitions. They got a lot of support and encouragement from the crowd. Sure they were slow and didn't have the biggest jumps in the world but THEY WERE HAVING FUN!!

Watching someone in their 70s doing a waltz jump and Salchow is kind of inspirational...especially to a 58 year old youngun like myself who finally has his Salchow....most of the time.

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Keeping School Figures Alive!!

Hmmm. I was the one that said that I was embarassed at another adult. I was, because if this lady had not put in all this stuff that she obviously couldn't do (and no, it wasn't competition nerves from speaking with others who knew her), her program would have been positive, showing off the things that she COULD do. Instead, what I remember is the bad stuff and really thought her coach was mollycoddling her fantasies.

I have a solo program that has a waltz, sal, toe/toe and sal/toe, plus corkscrew and camel spin. Six elements. I can't do a sit spin and don't bother attempting the bendover fake sit. I'll put it in when I can do it to passing standard. All this is within the preliminary freeskate test and I do it well and at speed. FYI, for Mrs. Redboots, who I know is a very hard working skater and who does stroking exercises, one of coach's favorite drills is to do Russian stroking, and when flying on the outside edge, do a waltz jump. No slowing down allowed. My instructions with my coach is that if I suck, I want to know about it because I don't want to be embarassed myself.

Maybe because in my circle of skaters kids and adults, it's all about speed, more speed and confidence. Do what you're good at. Coach frowns upon the kids that try double axels to try to get the good attempt/fall mark, and won't let us put crap elements in our programs. I know that there are coaches at the kids level that stuff programs full of sort-of there elements to maybe bombard the judges and hopefully quantity beats quality, so that's where my comments come from. I'd rather see a quality program of confident elements, than what I'm seeing in adult skating at the local level. Don't get me wrong, I'd never say to anyone's face that they're terrible, I am the biggest rah-rah booster for personal achievement, but I don't know what to say when someone is on another skating planet of their own imaginative ability.

I agree, adults have to start somewhere, just like the kids and there isn't any cute factor for adults like the kids get, but one thing adults have that kids usually don't is presence and presentation on ice, and I'm getting hung up on the number of adults who are focusing on individual elements to the detriment of the overall program.

To make the equivalent point at the kid level, last year someone won a big competition with nothing but a very big huge fast axel with flow and the other kids were doing cheated doubles from a standstill, so the message was very clear from the judges as to what they wanted.

Or you would have had more time to spend on the crappy spin that you don't like and can't do very well because you had nothing more exciting/easy to work on, and you would have mastered it by now. That's sort of my viewpoint. Clearly what you work on is your perogative, but I don't see the point in doing all these cool spins if you can't even pass the first one. It'll screw you in the end. The scratch is the basis for the layback and the sit spin, I bet yours are very pretty but I also bet that they would be better if you mastered the dreaded scratch, and you would have had no choice but to do it if your coach had refused to teach you anything else until you had at least somewhat conquered it.

When I couldn't figure out the backspin a long time ago, I tried it for weeks, but I was sorta ashamed that I couldn't do it so I'd do 5 in a little corner and then work on stuff I looked good doing, like camels, laybacks, etc. And then I said "okay, enough is enough, the backspin is a building block and I need it" so I worked on nothing but moves in the field and backspins for a week. Backspins for 20 mins. MIF. Backspins for 20 mins, MIF. I finally got it, and after a second week of truly working on them constantly, they were what I would call good, I was secure in them, and they never bothered me again. I obviously worked on getting more revs, more centering, and faster tighening for weeks/months after that, but I could do one and it could pass the standard, and I truly believe I would have never gotten the damn thing if I hadn't worked on that and nothing else for over a week...I just wasn't getting it. But I gave myself no choice. Don't give up on the scratch just becuase it gives you trouble and you can do the funner spins. That's exactly my point about the negativity of skipping around. Stuff gets neglected/left behind.

I have worked on that spin forever. Not a lesson goes by that my coach doesn't have me work on it a bit......but thank goodness he lets me work on the other spins too. My other spins are centered and have good speed (for a 50 year old). My layback is from a back scratch, because backspins are more natural for me. The scratch is just one of those things that doesn't work for me. I'm finally to the point where I don't care to waste anymore time or money on it. Believe me, if my coach refused to teach me anything else until I had a beautiful scratch, he would have lost me and my interest a long time ago. He was wise enough to see that there might be some spinning potential in me if he tried a different angle. He was right on. I think we all learn differently, and have different abilities. A good coach realizes this.

I'm probably past competing, at this stage of the game. Now I can just go out and play.

Oh, and my scratch is passing standard..........it will just never be good or comfortable for me.