I'm just curious what you all think... I know some adults who are really marginal skaters as far as having good, strong basic skating skills ....so what is the value of being able to say you can do a camel or sit spin if there are only 2 revolutions at best and you can't even do back crossovers in both directions, don't have a strong or centered scratch spin or are deathly afraid of having any speed or of falling? Do you know what I mean? I know this sounds really uppity but I'm not trying to be that way. I just don't understand, for example, what good it does a skater to say they can do a waltz-loop combo if they don't have a decent waltz jump with a solid landing position to begin with. What good is it to have a sporty little list of things you can say you "do" in freestyle? Does anyone else feel something is missing in that picture? Are coaches misguiding students? Is it the adult skater wo is too eager to "have" these skills and skim too fast over the foundation? I just don't understand and as a future coach (wannabe) I just want to learn what motivates people this direction. Thoughts? Greg

I don't do freestyle, so can't comment on that.

In my case, as a dancer, basic skills are important. Having said that, because I test on the USFS Adult dance test track, I've been able to get away, up to now, with relying on my male coach to provide some of the power and flow.

Early this summer I was the recipient of a comment from a judge I know that hit home about my skating basics considering the level dance I had just finished competing. Although I was rather upset at the time about the comment, I thought about it, and spent all summer skating mostly solo on my dances. And it has paid off for the most part. My coach has commented that he can tell, when I skate with him, the improvement in my basics, flow and control across the ice. My new goal is to be able to skate the dances (I'm working on USFS Silver dances and higher) as close to standard track quality as possible, even if I ultimately test Adult track.

Except for those blamed intro-3's in dances. And that's a mental problem that has taken up residence in my feet. And being a bad habit, is turning out to be 10x harder to correct...

I've got to try that one on my coach this week!

....and yes I know the type of adult skaters you are referring to....they are legends in their own mind!

Oh well, live and let live, as long as they stay out of people's way when they are doing their imaginary elements, hey at least they're not couch potatoes!

I don't think such things apply to everyone and it could be related to different teaching styles as well as what the skater wants to cover for themselves. Course it could be an ego trip too, who knows?

Being an adult is nothing like being a kid, a coach can easily tell the kids that this is what they need to have before they can do something else. Adults are a bit smarter then that and tend to make their own path of the direction they want.

I myself do not have a set path of where I want to go, hopefully whenI get a coach again we can go over what I need to work on and what I should proceed with.

I myself have very good edges and it has been rare for me to come across a kid who can hold an edge, or a change of edge move, for the entire length of the rink, or more, to the point of not moving anymore.

My waltz jump is not great, practicing it without a coach has resulted in some bad habits which need correcting, but I can hold my landing position until I'm stopped and have to put my other foot down if I wish not to fall.

I have a long list of things I can "somewhat" do, I'm proud that I can do them even though they are not great, but I don't use them for bragging rights as skating is annoying enough as it is.

Perhaps what motivates some people is just doing it, and adults are a funny lot when it comes to such things, but most of the ones I have come across, do it more for the enjoyment that they are doing it even though it may not be perfect, yet.

Steven

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So why pick on just adults who do this? Yes, we all know a couple of adults who do this, but we also know kids who do this. Like the kid who told me that the loop/backspin-looking-thingy she did was a double loop. Or the kid who "has" a double lutz that's as cheated and under-rotated as they get. It's not just adults.

Personally, I think you should cut them all some slack. Sometimes these people just don't know what they look like skating. We all know the feeling of watching yourself on tape and saying, "I look like THAT?!" Maybe the people who do this honestly don't know that their waltz jump is crappy. And don't forget that there are various levels of "having" a skill. You can "have" an element when it's recognizable to somebody else. Then as you become a better skater, you polish and perfect it. I could "do" crossovers 8 years ago. I "do" them better now.

But the question is, what's bugging you about it? Let them live their fantasies about what their skating is like, and don't let it get under your skin.

Since I do both freestyle and dance, I have seen many situations where adult skaters neglect the basic skills in their skating in order to spend time on more advanced elements. I have seen adults who can't do loop jumps (let alone a waltz jump-loop combo) trying to do axels. I have seen adults who don't have the slightest idea on how to do decent crossovers and progressives toe push their way through presilver and higher level dances.

I'm a silver-with-axel freestyler who is working towards her gold test and a pre-gold level dancer. The basic skills are the building blocks towards the more advanced elements. I hear the common complaint that things like MIF and basic stroking are too time consuming and adults don't want to spend the time. I can't imagine trying to work on some of this stuff without having mastered the basics!

I would much rather see a skater (adult or otherwise) put out solid basic skating with maybe fewer elements than a skater who puts out a bunch of elements that are questionable at best. Unfortunately, some of my past experience has shown that poor skating is often rewarded over better skating because the "attempt" is given full or at least partial credit. This is the major reason why I am no longer competing in freestyle. If there is a place that really needs COP, it is adult skating!

The "value" is in the eye (blade?) of the skater (adult or kid). There are lots of skaters with tricks or elements beyond their ability or without coresponding level edges. Perhaps being able to say I have a "XXX" keeps them interested, and working on skating, or perhaps it's out of amazement!
Whatever it is - it's their choice, and if they are enjoying the process, then it's there's to enjoy.

Every new skill begins at a non-passing level and has to be worked up to standards. Because a skater cannot do a beautiful, flowing, high waltz jump or loop does not mean that they cannot do the element at all. When skaters say they "have" and element, it may mean no more than that they are working on it and have managed to execute it to some degree at least once. I take what anyone says with a grain of salt until I have seen it myself. I also do not consider myself to be in competition with anyone when talking about skills.

This reminds me of my first encounter with a pathologic liar. There used to be a squash club across the street from my office when I worked in lower Manhattan, and a lot of us would go over and play for half an hour at lunch time. I hadn't played for a year or so, but a new woman on my project said she was an expert (also expert skier) and would love to play. She did not have an athletic build, to be kind about it. I was not eager to play, but she really pushed, so we finally went over the club with some co-workers who were interested in watching. This woman could not hit the ball!!! The "big" game was over in about ten minutes. I was amazed, as she showed no embarrassment at all. She continued to act as if she were the greatest squash player ever. I think her boss took a closer look at her work after that

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we seem to have alot of kids here who dont do lts and then start skating, want to skip the basics and just do the tricks.They dont seem to get the whole yes you can do a jump but your stroking is terrible thing.
Im so glad my kids started in lts and have strong basic skills.My dd was taught from day one that to have a good sit spin, first you have a nice dip, then a nice shoot the duck.That way it makes sense.One thing adds to another.
it seems like the 9 and 10 years here just dont see it that way, unless they started early.
me, i just want to stroke around the rink, not do any jumps lol

Skaternum, I wasn't trying to "pick on" adults. I just referred to them because I'm an adult skater and skate with several of them and know there are many on this message board. I understand what you're talking about-there are plenty of kids who have the same problems but I just figured I'd ask other adult skaters here what they thought about it.

What's bugging me about them? Well, as I said in my original post-I want to coach someday. I'm just trying to learn what makes people and coaches tick. I'm trying to find out what the general feeling is from other adult skaters. I don't know if it bugs me or if it worries me, but I do know several skaters like this who to me, appear to be working on elements that are inappropriate for their overall skating level. I don't understand why that is! I would not find it rewarding to say I can "do" a camel-sitspin combo when I'm still trying to master a sitspin that has multiple revs and is well centered and doesn't die at the end from lack of speed. Maybe I'm a perfectionist but I'm trying to figure out why it seems adults jump ahead when it seems premature. I'm not attacking anyone or picking on anyone from my point of view-just trying to understand. I appreciate the comments so far. Thanks!

the value of saying you have these elements, however poor they may be, is that in competition, if the judge can mark "lutz - two footed" or "camel - 2 revs" a skater gets credit for these crap elements and are placed higher than those who skate clean with simpler jumps and spins.

My coach refuses to put an element in my program unless I can do it well, with proper edge takeoff, proper positions, etc. Some people are not like that, and will go through the motions of skating the element, so they would get credit for the attempt, even if the execution isn't there.

As a competitor, it stinks. But as an adult skater, I understand. We are a goal-minded society, and to check an element off the list as a skating accomplishment is a big deal. I know it is to me. And like dbny says, there's non-passing standard on the element and passing standard.

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Thing is, you'll get all sorts and conditions of adults. I know some who have no idea of competing or testing, but just employ a coach to haul them round the ice in what they fondly imagine is a Blues or a Tango! Others would like to do those dances to standard, and spend a lot of time and money getting them ready to test. Still others fall somewhere in between - I do myself, for that matter. I want to compete at the level for which I am able (which is basically BASIC!), but I also want to be able to stumble and kick my way through a Blues or Tango well enough to "dance" it at a social dancing session.

I have found that coaches will take adult skaters at their own valuation. Those who are taking it seriously, hoping to test, wanting to compete, will be taught as rigorously as any child. On the other hand, those who just want to be able to "do tricks" get taught the tricks.

And in many ways it's the kids who do the tricks - their parents want Jemima to be able to do a double jump because Dorothy can do one, never mind that Dorothy is ready and Jemima isn't! It's only when their skater gets told that "she won't pass the next test unless and until she actually learns to skate!" that they sit up and take notice.

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Well, I certainly think skaters of any age should learn the basics (edges, crossovers, etc.) before they start jumping and spinning - that's why the USFSA and ISI created structures for basic skills and freestyle lessons.

However, as skaternum and dbny pointed out, skating is a process of continuous improvement. You have to start out doing a skill poorly before it becomes mastered. As my coach said when we were working on my landing position (to stop my hunching over), there's (USFSA) Basic 7 landing position and Michelle Kwan's landing position - and everything in between. No one is going to do an element perfectly the first time. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to take pride in improvement, even if it's not where the element should be.

For example, I take pride in currently being able to get 2 revs on my backspin and exit on my spinning foot - up until a few weeks ago, I could barely hold one, and it was a struggle to not put my free foot down. Obviously, I haven't mastered the skill, and it's not good enough to put in a program or take the Bronze FS test (not that I'm ready to take it, I'm not even ready to test MIF), but I'm still pleased that I'm headed in the right direction. My loop jump may be a bit cheated, but I can still be pleased that I'm actually landing it on 1 foot.

Debbie S, don't you think it makes at least a little sense to progress from basic skills TO higher level skills, rather than skip over mastery of simple elements and try to do certain things badly? How can someone justify doing any jump poorly or incompletely when that same person is not even comfortable falling? Why not master basic skills and simple jumps and spins, and then graduate to the more difficult skills, such as combo jumps and spins?

gregyoshi,
Why does the skater have to justify anything? There is no one gloden path to skating success and progress. In thruth the "basics" are much harder to "master" than many of the more advanced tricks. It would be pretty dull to have to "master the basics" to some obscure level before attempting new elements - we would have far fewer skaters. Also with the adults many skills are learned at the same time, or out of order. My lutz came far more quickly than my flip. My layback and sit well before my scratch. It did not mean that I was finished working on the elements, only that the others had more progress earlier.

If you really have serious goals about coaching, you may wish to overcome your own preconceptions. When did you start skating? As an adult or child?

In short, because not everyone thinks like you. Some skaters really are content to pick & choose skills that they want to learn, and some coaches will let them do it, as long as it keeps them interested in skating.

Gregyoshi, maybe I can provide a bit of insight on adults trying to do "tricks" without having nailed the basics. I took up skating 6 1/2 years ago, have taken lessons for 3 of those years, but not currently. I've come to some conclusions about my skating
1. I'm not interested in competing.
2. I'm totally scared of backspins, they make me nausous, so I just don't even try them anymore.
3. I prefer to spin clockwise, but can't make my body do a proper crossover entrance into clockwise spins, so my entrance is a two foot one, but I'll live with it cuz it works for me. I can do the crossover entrance to a CCW spin, but don't like to spin that way as well as CW.
4. I've tried to do a "shoot the duck". Everyone says at least when you fall you haven't got far to go - but when I fell, it jarred my spine all the way up and took a trip to the chiropractor to fix. So guess what - I don't practise shoot the ducks, but my sit spin is recognizable as a sit spin, and I can get 6 revolutions on occassion, 4 revs the rest of the time. I can most times even put a headless scratch spin on the end of it

I'm going on a bit here, but I'm trying to say that I'm proud of what I can do, I will never attain greatness, but if I don't want to spend time practising the basics, that's my choice, and doing things the way I do gives me a taste of what "real" figure skaters do, without wrecking my body. I give compliments to other skaters, and when they see me do something well, they compliment me, and that gives me satisfaction. I think what I've learned to do is amazing to me - and I'm happy. The coaches I've worked with have understood this about me, and teach me things I can do.

I hope this helps you if you ever find yourself teaching adults. There are lots that will want the basics, and to learn from the bottom up, perfectly, and there are the rest of us that are just pleased as punch to do what we can.

Skaternum is right, greg. If you want to coach, try being more open minded. Certainly, patience is required when it comes to adult skaters!

A goal for some adults might be to just do decent crossovers or a recognizable waltz jump.

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I am open minded! You've got me all wrong But I am trying to find opinions here and you've helped me see many angles.

For me on a personal level, I think it is better to have a strong foundation before moving onward, especially when it seems higher level skills carry a higher risk for injury. I think a skater has a better chance to be successful and avoid injuries when they have a strong foundation to support them. That has been my experience and my coach stresses this. Sorry to offend anyone with my opinions-just sharing. I have had many years of ballet training and that was always the methodology so I guess it has permeated my brain too much. Thanks.

I agree completely, as do many. But with adult students especially, you have to understand that they won't always agree with your philosophy. And each one may have a different reason. If you're going to coach adults, you'll have to treat each one as an individual. If you don't want to teach a skater something you don't think they're ready for, you need to work that out up front with the student. If the student doesn't like it, he or she will happily seek out a coach who'll accomodate their preferences, and you can teach only students who are interested in your methodology.

I also have had years of ballet training. I'm not sure it's the duration of living with that methodology. I think it's more a matter of when you started living with it. Starting a sport or activity is just plain different when you're grown up, paying for your own lessons, and juggling the demands of work & family. You see things differently, and don't necessarily take on the "values" of that culture like you do when you're a kid.

My advice to aspiring coaches:
- don't feed the skater's ego by telling them that their () element is wonderful when it isn't. Encourage them, say they've improved, but for gosh sakes, don't exaggerate it. I've heard coaches go on and on about how wonderful a certain skater's lutz is, and then when I see it...flutz.
- don't put a skater up for a test when you know they're not ready for it to "give them the experience of testing it." Especially for a young child...what good does it do to have them experience a sure failure? It just wastes time and money for everyone.

In response to the comment that judges give more credit for poorly executed difficult elements than cleanly executed easier ones, I must emphasize that there are plenty of judges out there who do exactly the opposite.

Cheers to all of you, young, old, and in-between, who skate simply because you love to skate.

Just want to add a few other thoughts. The adult skating world is made up of basically 2 types of skaters - those who learn to skate as an adult, and those who had some skating history in their youth. The difference greatly effects how they come to adult skating lessons.

New adult skaters also go through various phases, known as AOSS. Their passion and excitement pushes them forward. Then some plateaus hit and it is not unusual for a savy coach to introduce other skills above their current foundation. A change of pace can keep a skater interested. There are also times when deviating from foundation work can actually be beneficial when the basics are returned to - and that can boost a skater's confidence.

I hear where you are coming from, but basics can always be improved upon. How you teach and your attitude will attract skaters of like mind - those that have a different agenda will find another coach. The coaching world is filled with a huge variety of talent, teaching methods, and reasons for coaching. Some coaches can't stand the pupil that need minute detail on every element and discusses everything. There are coaches that take adults believing it is guaranteed income and will do whatever the pupil wants. Others enjoy the adult workaholic.....some enjoy the challenge to explain an element that a kid never asks for or needs or could understand.

Over the course of time I have found people who come from the ballet world and the rigidity of their training, do have a hard time adjusting to the more varied skating teaching/practicing methods. Perhaps it would be helpful to you to observe different coaches as they teach adults, but with an open mind. Frank Carroll always says that he welcomes new ways of doing things and has continued to learn from other coaches. Also watch how the adult skater responds to the teaching method.

There are people who fix everything with duct tape - and those who have a whole workshop and enjoy the detail work....and everyone else falls between these 2 types. Good luck and I hope these responses have been helpful to you.

That's just it...it's for you, personally. That's not at all a bad thing, just understand that other folks have their own 'personally' as well.

Quite a bit depends on a skater's goals. If a skater wants to compete, then I'd say yes, you really need to get the basics first. But I know quite a few adult skaters who take lessons just for the fun of it--they have no intention of competing, and they really don't even care what they look like out there...it's just a fun activity on a Tuesday night (or whatever). Both kinds of skaters ought to be accomodated within the system. It's also a personality thing. Some people are serious, solitary, and detail-oriented, and this can lend itself to polishing the basics. Others are social butterflies first and foremost, they skate primarily for social reasons, and therefore hashing out the basics may be at the end of their list.

You sound like you'll be a very strict coach. Again, that's a good thing, because there are adult skaters who want that, and can't stand it when a coach lets them get away with crap. However, there's the other kind of student as well, and it's no use trying to turn them into a detailed skater if they're not interested. As stated previously, they'll find a coach more suited to their style, and students more suited to your style will find you. (If you're not somewhat flexible, however, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of students. The masochists might be few and far between.)

For myself, I am a basics and details person. I like to work on things until I get them. I can do all the basic jumps and spins, but not as well as I would like, so I'm working on these things until they get better. It will be alot of work.

However, I know what it's like to have limited ice time, money and access to coaching time. It's not like we have four hours a day to practice, so I can certainly see why some may go for more of the checklist approach, even if its not the one I prefer myself.

There are so many types of adult skaters and each type of skater is attracted to a different type of coach. In my experience, what ends up happening is that the skaters with low self confidence gravitate toward the coaches who exaggerate their achievements for them (like my former coach who would count every 1/2 revolution on my spin so that I would think I just did 5 revolutions!). I just don't want to be there when these skaters get their first feedback from a judge because it will be awfully painful.

Meanwhile, those skaters who demand more of themselves tend to find the coaches who will tell them if their spins and jumps look like crap and tell them how to fix them. So ultimately, if you become a coach, you will just have to accept it when you teach someone who doesn't want to hear anything negative and that person leaves you for another coach. But you may also end up attracting students who see that you have high expectations and are good at teaching adults how to meet those expectations.